Fetish for Sacrifice and Pain
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The rennouncing to have a family as a merit... merit for what? I think that the fact of having family is part of life, the kind of life derived from our GOD-given nature. To attempt to be better by avoiding difficulties I don't see it as a merit or a useful thing. Families are a real trial and do make you evolve and learn. It is the best school for anybody, particularly for anybody with any spiritual aim. You become more spiritua not by giving up the world but by trascending it. If you leave it side you merely beome ignorant and as a visitor in life not as a real participant.
The monk thing is good only for those who like being monks. Being a monk without liking it is useless to all purposes. You cannot do something you dislike without it reflecting badly on what you do.
Salaam
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Salam Jafar.
Per my understanding you are mixing up two separate things ? sacrifice and fetish for pain and death.
Sacrifice is forgoing interest of self for the benefit of others.
Fetish for pain and death is causing death and pain to others to serve one?s selfish interest OR simply for perverted satisfaction.In both above statements self can be a person, a cult or a religion or nation, or a gender.
In rare occasions fetish for pain and death causes death and pain to narrower self to serve the interest of one?s broader self (e.g. suicide bombers).The surgical knife of a physician and the knife of a robber do not serve the same purpose. The gun of a terrorist and the gun of a faithful soldier does not serve the same purpose. So let?s not paint everything with the same brush.
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The ritual for practicing sacrifice in controlled settings (e.g. sacrifice of time and effort, diet, wealth, livestock etc.) that seems to be a part of every religion is intended to make the practitioners prepared for greater selfless sacrifices in life. You can compare it with the lab test of the surgeons OR the training camp for the soldiers. YES, very often the practice loose the intended purpose and becomes a mindless slaughter game, but that is a different story. I believe the question of the thread surrounds what could be the ?intended purpose? of such rituals in religions.
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Your distaste for the practice of ?animal sacrifice? is quite evident in your post. I welcome you to consider the following
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The domestic animals (e.g. cows, goats, camels, chicken) would almost certainly have been extinct species by now because they simply lack the skills to survive in the wild. It is human intervention and nurturing that not only helped them survive but also thrive in numbers and diversity. Methodical slaughter is part of the process that helped them survive.
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Just like any carnivore creature in the wild has its natural right to seek foods for its survival in the wild through pray, humans being a omnivorous creature has natural right to seek source of food from other creatures. However the ?intelligence? built into humans gives them additional responsibility to limit their pray to only those species whom they can support and sustain in a controlled fashion.
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Assuming one accepts the above two arguments, if one practices a non-vegetarian diet it is only hypocrisy of highest order for one to claim any kind of animal slaughter is inhuman etc. However, there are certain religions which recommend strict vegetarian diet and they never recommend ritual slaughter. Those who practice such ?sacrifice?, for religion or otherwise, are indeed on a higher pedestal of morality and deserve to be respected for their vows.
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However, those who practice non vegetarian diet can be recommended to practice ritual slaughter, for
a. Firsthand experience of the pain and death involved in the process of obtaining meat
b. Appreciation of our inter-species dependencies.
c. Appreciation of how pain and death for higher purpose is necessary.-
Ritually slaughtered animals are generally better treated and better cared compared to animals commercially slaughtered in slaughterhouses.
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Where the ritual allows eating the meat ? such ritual often recommends sharing the meat with those who would otherwise not be able to afford meat.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
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Salam Huruf,
My point is about the way monkhood came into existence, its a belief that to renounce will bring in something better. Its there in all religions.
I agree with you, There are exceptions there are many who wanted to be a monk just for showing off and infact enjoy a wealthy life, there are many such especially in India, they run business empires mostly cheating people.
But still we can hear instances of normal people who voluntarily give off a wealthy life, do service to others in multiple ways, may be you can see that as a god given opportunity to service but still its the results of their service that made them look great and revered long after their life.Can we ignore the sacrifice of a mother compared to the father or anyone in supporting her kids and their welfare.
Jafar,
Inflicting pain and suffering on other innocents?
The suicide bombers who kill innocents and even kids do they have a valid reason? can they be compared with
a soldier in the military, he too kills and inflict pain on others,
but the soldier has a valid reason/duty of defending himself and his countrymen from the enemies, in a way both looks same
but the result of their actions will make the difference.The one who kill innocents do this misguided by their idols,
Their idols will only sit idle but the universal goodness(God or Allah) will shame those kind of acts. -
Salam Arman,
I agree with you, killing animals for food is a reality and thats the only way one can live in some environments in good health, The diversity of nature has to be respected, nature teaches us on whats good and bad and it can be followed.
But i do not like the religious custom of sacrificing animals especially at the time of Hajj. its completely out of Goodness and looks excess and wasteful done in the name of pleasing God.
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Salam Arman,
I agree with you, killing animals for food is a reality and thats the only way one can live in some environments in good health, The diversity of nature has to be respected, nature teaches us on whats good and bad and it can be followed.
But i do not like the religious custom of sacrificing animals especially at the time of Hajj. its completely out of Goodness and looks excess and wasteful done in the name of pleasing God.
Salam Amin.
Do you have any data / article based on which you are concluding that the sacrificing animals especially at the time of Hajj is wasteful? I know at least part of the animals slaughtered during the hajj are shipped to different countries for distributing among the poor, but I have no idea what % is actually wasted.
Any form of wastage is against human rationality and morality and hence impious.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Its based on personal experience in my place and happens even in my house yearly.
Sacrifice is to share our excess with the needy and also our relatives and i definitely find Hajj practice of buying animals and giving sacrifice not the best act. Instead one can do in other different ways not sacrificing animals. -
Its based on personal experience in my place and happens even in my house yearly.
Sacrifice is to share our excess with the needy and also our relatives and i definitely find Hajj practice of buying animals and giving sacrifice not the best act. Instead one can do in other different ways not sacrificing animals.Salam Amin.
So, you are talking about the sacrifice ritual done at home during "Eid-ul-Adha" by traditional Muslims, not the sacrifice at Mecca?
Well, while I agree with you that just like virtually every other ritual the animal sacrifice rite has often lost its true essence - I am not yet convinced that by definition this is a wasteful practice.
Based on my personal experience I have seen - when the practice is conducted with proper intensions - it does provide the poor people access to meat which they would not otherwise get. I have also seen from personal experience that the animals which are ritually slaughtered are indeed better cared and well treated compared to commercially slaughtered animals.
It is not only the poor who recieve the charity, the professionals involved in the field of slaughtering and livestock raising and trading get a much needed financial boost during the ritual season. The movement of fund is generally in the direction of more solvent to less solvent and hence a beneficial boost to the society.
If someone turns the practice into a wasteful excercise, the blame should be upon the waster - not on the ritual. If the wastage is happening at your home yearly, you can actually step-up and stop the westage and compel your family to share more with the poor - without necessarily challanging the ritual. Hope you did your part, before criticising the ritual.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam Arman,
It happens in my parents home and I have done my best to explain them the real need for such sacrifices.
I hope you understand and see the wastage thats happening in the name of this ritual everywhere and even in Mecca, may be nowadays they've improved the system by distributing the excess meat to poor countries. Even then I do not know how many understood that their sacrifice do not reach God instead its meant for the needy.
The Abraham sacrifice i understand is result of his fight for his survival coming to the belief of oneness of God rejecting his people and test from God then allowing him to sacrifice the animal instead of his own son.
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Salam Arman,
It happens in my parents home and I have done my best to explain them the real need for such sacrifices.
I hope you understand and see the wastage thats happening in the name of this ritual everywhere and even in Mecca, may be nowadays they've improved the system by distributing the excess meat to poor countries. Even then I do not know how many understood that their sacrifice do not reach God instead its meant for the needy.
The Abraham sacrifice i understand is result of his fight for his survival coming to the belief of oneness of God rejecting his people and test from God then allowing him to sacrifice the animal instead of his own son.
Salam Amin
Indeed a vast majority of the traditional Muslims have misunderstood and corrupted all forms of rituals - salaat, siam, hajj, nusk. Indeed a vast majority of the traditional Muslims have misunderstood and misinterpreted the Qur'an and have sold the signs of Allah for folklores and narratives which value little.
But I am still amongst those who would look for medicine to cure the headache rather than cutting off the head.
I am not sure the animal slaughter rite prescribed in Qur'an (2236) is actually linked to the incident of Abraham. I read and understand the Abraham incident (37102-104) quite differently from how it is traditionally interpreted. Per my understanding God tested Abraham with a dream to see if he acts against his God-gifted morality in order to show-off his piety. Abraham passed this test when he turned his son's face upside down (signifying a decision not to perform the slaughter.) From there on his decendents are required to practice sacrifice of their urge to show-off devotion which often supercedes their God gifted morality.
Perhaps ritual animal slaughter also helps us sacrifice the phonny show-off of piety "I love eating meat, but I cannot tolerate the cruelty of animal slaughter." ??? However, this connection is not established by Qur'an.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Peace Arman.
Quote
Per my understanding God tested Abraham with a dream to see if he acts against his God-gifted morality in order to show-off his piety. Abraham passed this test when he turned his son's face upside down (signifying a decision not to perform the slaughter.)
GOD does not do such a thing. " Inna Allaha la yaamuru bilfahshaa"
Abraham believed his dream .GOD would not ask him to break one of the commandments?
I do not find anywhere in Qoran GOD testing Abraham with a dream? Where does it say so?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I do not find anywhere in Qoran GOD testing Abraham with a dream? Where does it say so?
Salam Good Logic.
37102 And when he reached with him exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."
37103 And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead,
37104 We called to him, "O Abraham,
37105 You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
37106 Indeed, this was the clear trial.
37107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice,
(Translation by Sahaih International, emphasis added.)
Hope this answers your question.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam Jafar.
Per my understanding you are mixing up two separate things ? sacrifice and fetish for pain and death.
Sacrifice is forgoing interest of self for the benefit of others.
Fetish for pain and death is causing death and pain to others to serve one?s selfish interest OR simply for perverted satisfaction.Fetish for pain and death is 'interest' in death and pain itself..
Doesn't necessarily requires that he or she's the one causing it..Many Xtians is feeling a kind of "Spiritual Orgasm" just by reading or watching Jesus suffering (for example)..
Many Japanese are amazed by Kamikaze...
Many Muslims are amazed by suicide bomber or brutal raid that 'their ancestor' has performed in the past.
Many Jews are amazed by Abraham's act of sacrificing his own son..
Many Mongols are amazed by all the atrocities performed by Genghis Khan..
Etc.. etc..In rare occasions fetish for pain and death causes death and pain to narrower self to serve the interest of one?s broader self (e.g. suicide bombers).
Is it truly rare?
Another example is Vikings longing for Valhala and Muslim longing for Jannah through Martyrdom..The ritual for practicing sacrifice in controlled settings (e.g. sacrifice of time and effort, diet, wealth, livestock etc.) that seems to be a part of every religion is intended to make the practitioners prepared for greater selfless sacrifices in life. You can compare it with the lab test of the surgeons OR the training camp for the soldiers. YES, very often the practice loose the intended purpose and becomes a mindless slaughter game, but that is a different story. I believe the question of the thread surrounds what could be the ?intended purpose? of such rituals in religions.
Interesting...
Religion is the product of human mindset.. it's part of human's culture..
I'm intrigued on the mindset behind it..Your distaste for the practice of ?animal sacrifice? is quite evident in your post. I welcome you to consider the following
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The domestic animals (e.g. cows, goats, camels, chicken) would almost certainly have been extinct species by now because they simply lack the skills to survive in the wild. It is human intervention and nurturing that not only helped them survive but also thrive in numbers and diversity. Methodical slaughter is part of the process that helped them survive.
-
Just like any carnivore creature in the wild has its natural right to seek foods for its survival in the wild through pray, humans being a omnivorous creature has natural right to seek source of food from other creatures. However the ?intelligence? built into humans gives them additional responsibility to limit their pray to only those species whom they can support and sustain in a controlled fashion.
-
Assuming one accepts the above two arguments, if one practices a non-vegetarian diet it is only hypocrisy of highest order for one to claim any kind of animal slaughter is inhuman etc. However, there are certain religions which recommend strict vegetarian diet and they never recommend ritual slaughter. Those who practice such ?sacrifice?, for religion or otherwise, are indeed on a higher pedestal of morality and deserve to be respected for their vows.
-
However, those who practice non vegetarian diet can be recommended to practice ritual slaughter, for
a. Firsthand experience of the pain and death involved in the process of obtaining meat
b. Appreciation of our inter-species dependencies.
c. Appreciation of how pain and death for higher purpose is necessary.-
Ritually slaughtered animals are generally better treated and better cared compared to animals commercially slaughtered in slaughterhouses.
-
Where the ritual allows eating the meat ? such ritual often recommends sharing the meat with those who would otherwise not be able to afford meat.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
I'm in "Neutral" position for animal sacrifice.. or human sacrifice for that matter..
I'm neither like it or dislike it..Are you sure your opinion is not biased because one of your favorite character has performed the same thing?
But anyway I'm intrigued on such phenomenon.. (one become very famous just because he sacrificed his son to the God)And it's intriguing that "Animal Sacrifice" is also performed as part of the Voodoo / African magic rituals..
Witches - True Horror Supernatural History Documentary
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbBeP4op-Y4 -
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Are you sure your opinion is not biased because one of your favorite character has performed the same thing?
But anyway I'm intrigued on such phenomenon.. (one become very famous just because he sacrificed his son to the God)Salam Jafar.
Of course, all my opinions are biased (based on my experience / knowledge / understanding), and that's why they are "opinions", not facts.
By, "your favorite character " if you are indicating to Abraham, please check out my understanding of Abraham incident in the couple of posts above.
I believe Abraham passed the test because he DID NOT slaughter his son. If he managed to slaughter his son based on his dream he would be just like one more human-sacrificing-pagan maniac. He became Abraham, arguably the most respected religious figure in the world, because he upheld faith in his God-gifted sense of right and wrong over his inner urge to show-off his piety and refused to follow his dream - and that was the supreme sacrifice he made.
The Abraham, whom I find in Qur'an, was a character who understood that we, humans cannot submit to any deity in heaven ? rather we should submit to the One who framed the heavens and earth in precision and made us humans with all the senses we need to enjoy and appreciate this creation. So he submitted to Him with utter devotion by upholding his sense of right and wrong within his own soul. That resolution makes him my favorite character.
Peace on Abraham.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salaam,
It could also be that the whole segment of text both from Quran and the Biblical scriptures is false. I am not suggesting Quran is altered but that the interpretation makes one think Abraham was going to sacrifice his son by slaughtering him. It is a hard-to-believe story and I have always had a problem accepting it.
It could also be that Abraham saw a vision to go somewhere as an assignment with his son as a test of loyalty, but without the scene with sacrifice. It could be the foundation of the baptism tradition.
The animal sacrifice substitute I do not give much for.
The point is that GOD would go against the own decree by commanding Abraham to go kill his son even if it was a sacrifice. GOD would be self-contradictory.
GOD can see the honesty and firmness in the heart of a human without such cruelty. It does not make sense.
Salaam
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GOD can see the honesty and firmness in the heart of a human without such cruelty. It does not make sense.
It also "does not make sense" why God is allowing much of the war, pain, suffering, diseases, crimes in today's world.
God does whatever He intends. At the end we all return to Him - and justice is done.God knew very well what was in Abraham's heart... that he would not eventually slaughter his son. But perhaps Abraham himself did not know that. And he needed to go through that trial to reconcile within his soul what submitting to Allah means to him - is it to follow an absurd nightly dream (or nightmare?) or to uphold his God gifted sense of right and wrong and thus complete the "vision". A trail which he passed with flying colors and thus set an example for his future generations.
God tests many of us. But only few of us pass. Most of us fail miserably like this guy
http//www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/10/12/hindu-man-brutally-murders-8-month-old-son-as-a-sacrifice-to-goddess-kali/Peace on Abraham.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Arman,
That is not from GOD. GOD has not commanded it. Set aside what comes from jinns and what would be from the spirit of Allah.
I still cannot accept GOD would even try to test a person through such deceptive means. It is on similar level with the alleged circumcision.
What comes from the flesh is from ourselves and we should not involve GOD in that. And dieing is a blessing for the ready, yet they cannot hasten it because destruction of the flesh is a sin.
GOD would still not break the own decree for the sake of a test. It would be hypocrisy.
Like "Sacrifice the life of your son" (but I do not mean it, I am only sadistic. He he...)
By Jesus it was taught that mental hurt is also counted under the "no killing" rule, so GOD would first say something against it then the spirit of GOD would enlighten people in an elaboration. It is fairly much double standard.
The sacrifice also goes against the non-materialization of the phenomenon of GOD since with the command it implies that GOD is a god to please with needs and wants, fallible traits. The common Pagan projection.
Salaam
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Nowhere in the Qur'an does God order or hint that Ibrahim should kill or sacrifice his son. What it says is thatin HIS DREAMS, Ibrahim sees that he sacrifices his son.
The whole question, therefore revolves around a dream Ibrahim keeps getting in which he sacrifices his son at the interpretation of such dream.
Dreams are real but the do not represent, like a phograph anything that is real in the awaken world. Dreams need to be interpreted, always. An in fact, Ibrahim asks his son ?what do yout hink of it? He is trying to find out the meaning of the dream. At no time whatsoever does the Qur'an say or show that he, Ibrahim, thinks or occurs to him that he should act by killing his son. No hint of that.
On the other hand the Qur'an says on that event that they both "aslamaa", they submitted voluntarily to God. THAT is THE sacrifice, the sacrifice any biliever must make in order to resurrect in glory, which reminds the saying in the Gospel by Jesus which says whever wants to save his or her soul, will lose it.
We must let go, we must relinquish any concept that we are lords of anything at all, and acce that God is the Sovereign, and that God being the Sovereign is our peace, our glory and salvation. We do not have to kill anything or anybody but accept our existence, our destiny, accept things as God wants them. That is our sacrifice.
It is only something that looks to us as a sacrifice, because we deem tht we give up something, when in fact we do not give up anything at all since we have nothing, but on the other hand, by the sacrifice of that nothing we gain the peace of God and truth.
Salaam
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Salaam huruf,
That is also what I suppose, that Abraham sees a vision in his dream of an adventure and he and Ishmael go there. While there they have some sort of encounter with an angel/GOD. It was probably about his prophetic awakening just as when Moses traveled with his family and saw a light (traditionally fire) further ahead and he felt it calling to him.
Abraham did not doubt his intuition and it could be what it means. He did what is right. Slaughtering his son is not among that.
Abraham's elevation to prophet is because he was so good inside and not exactly obedience. This is a misconception because aslama is generally taken as submission, but the word means you are sound/pristine/perfect. If you are aslama l'Rabb it means you are a caliber that The Rabb considers sound.
Abraham did not let his community and surroundings shape him but was thinking about what is right and it paid off.
Salaam
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Peace Arman;
Verse 37106 does not say "God tested Abraham"?
It just said it was a test. We can be tested by ourselves,by a dream ,by evil or by other things as awell as by GOD.
Abraham believed his dream. The dream had nothing to do with GOD.
On the contrary, GOD saved Abraham from committing a horrendous crime.
The story starts with the dream.Nothing to do with GOD s commanding asking or even involved.
57102
When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."GOD never advocates evil (72. , Abraham loved his son , and put himself to that severe test when he saw the dream.
Think brother ,GOD would not order/try anyone by asking them to do the wrong thing.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Verse 37106 does not say "God tested Abraham"?
It just said it was a test. We can be tested by ourselves,by a dream ,by evil or by other things as awell as by GOD.
Abraham believed his dream. The dream had nothing to do with GOD.
On the contrary, GOD saved Abraham from committing a horrendous crime.
The story starts with the dream.Nothing to do with GOD s commanding asking or even involved.
57102
When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."GOD never advocates evil (72. , Abraham loved his son , and put himself to that severe test when he saw the dream.
Think brother ,GOD would not order/try anyone by asking them to do the wrong thing.
"I hate all your show and pretense--the hypocrisy of your religious festivals and solemn assemblies.
Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat sacrifice, I will not accept them
I will have no regard for your fellowship offerings of fattened cattle.
Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps.
But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!"
-- Amos 5Abraham was a 'mindset reformer' (in his time on his people).
He rejected the illogicality and uselessness of idol worshiping and put forward a 'reasonable' argument to support that.
He's among the earliest example (among many others) of "Rational Thinker".Yet it seems he cannot escape the law of
"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."The dream was perhaps a 'test' on how rational is the self-claimed rational man named Abraham.
Because he use to think those 'idol worshiper' who lived around him as 'irrational'...
"Human sacrifice" was a common practice in middle east during his time, which can be backed by archeological findings..From my perspective Mr. Abraham failed the test... miserably..
Sacrificing your own son (or other people) to a deity is certainly not a righteous deed.. PERIODIf there's a lesson learn from Mr. Abraham story, it is.. do not do human sacrifice... it's sickening, it's gruesome and it's irrational..
Moving forward in time.. I haven't read anywhere that "Mr. Jesus performed animal sacrifice / offering" or neither his cousin Mr. John..
And Mr Gautama however took the 'mindset reformation' much forward.
He rejected all form of 'sacrifice of living being' to please any deities.
Which was also a common practice during his lifetime..?Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.?
-- Siddharta Gautama