Fetish for Sacrifice and Pain
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Nowhere in the Qur'an does God order or hint that Ibrahim should kill or sacrifice his son. What it says is thatin HIS DREAMS, Ibrahim sees that he sacrifices his son.
The whole question, therefore revolves around a dream Ibrahim keeps getting in which he sacrifices his son at the interpretation of such dream.
Dreams are real but the do not represent, like a phograph anything that is real in the awaken world. Dreams need to be interpreted, always. An in fact, Ibrahim asks his son ?what do yout hink of it? He is trying to find out the meaning of the dream. At no time whatsoever does the Qur'an say or show that he, Ibrahim, thinks or occurs to him that he should act by killing his son. No hint of that.
On the other hand the Qur'an says on that event that they both "aslamaa", they submitted voluntarily to God. THAT is THE sacrifice, the sacrifice any biliever must make in order to resurrect in glory, which reminds the saying in the Gospel by Jesus which says whever wants to save his or her soul, will lose it.
We must let go, we must relinquish any concept that we are lords of anything at all, and acce that God is the Sovereign, and that God being the Sovereign is our peace, our glory and salvation. We do not have to kill anything or anybody but accept our existence, our destiny, accept things as God wants them. That is our sacrifice.
It is only something that looks to us as a sacrifice, because we deem tht we give up something, when in fact we do not give up anything at all since we have nothing, but on the other hand, by the sacrifice of that nothing we gain the peace of God and truth.
Salaam
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Salaam huruf,
That is also what I suppose, that Abraham sees a vision in his dream of an adventure and he and Ishmael go there. While there they have some sort of encounter with an angel/GOD. It was probably about his prophetic awakening just as when Moses traveled with his family and saw a light (traditionally fire) further ahead and he felt it calling to him.
Abraham did not doubt his intuition and it could be what it means. He did what is right. Slaughtering his son is not among that.
Abraham's elevation to prophet is because he was so good inside and not exactly obedience. This is a misconception because aslama is generally taken as submission, but the word means you are sound/pristine/perfect. If you are aslama l'Rabb it means you are a caliber that The Rabb considers sound.
Abraham did not let his community and surroundings shape him but was thinking about what is right and it paid off.
Salaam
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Peace Arman;
Verse 37106 does not say "God tested Abraham"?
It just said it was a test. We can be tested by ourselves,by a dream ,by evil or by other things as awell as by GOD.
Abraham believed his dream. The dream had nothing to do with GOD.
On the contrary, GOD saved Abraham from committing a horrendous crime.
The story starts with the dream.Nothing to do with GOD s commanding asking or even involved.
57102
When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."GOD never advocates evil (72. , Abraham loved his son , and put himself to that severe test when he saw the dream.
Think brother ,GOD would not order/try anyone by asking them to do the wrong thing.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Verse 37106 does not say "God tested Abraham"?
It just said it was a test. We can be tested by ourselves,by a dream ,by evil or by other things as awell as by GOD.
Abraham believed his dream. The dream had nothing to do with GOD.
On the contrary, GOD saved Abraham from committing a horrendous crime.
The story starts with the dream.Nothing to do with GOD s commanding asking or even involved.
57102
When he grew enough to work with him, he said, "My son, I see in a dream that I am sacrificing you. What do you think?" He said, "O my father, do what you are commanded to do. You will find me, God willing, patient."GOD never advocates evil (72. , Abraham loved his son , and put himself to that severe test when he saw the dream.
Think brother ,GOD would not order/try anyone by asking them to do the wrong thing.
"I hate all your show and pretense--the hypocrisy of your religious festivals and solemn assemblies.
Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat sacrifice, I will not accept them
I will have no regard for your fellowship offerings of fattened cattle.
Away with the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps.
But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!"
-- Amos 5Abraham was a 'mindset reformer' (in his time on his people).
He rejected the illogicality and uselessness of idol worshiping and put forward a 'reasonable' argument to support that.
He's among the earliest example (among many others) of "Rational Thinker".Yet it seems he cannot escape the law of
"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."The dream was perhaps a 'test' on how rational is the self-claimed rational man named Abraham.
Because he use to think those 'idol worshiper' who lived around him as 'irrational'...
"Human sacrifice" was a common practice in middle east during his time, which can be backed by archeological findings..From my perspective Mr. Abraham failed the test... miserably..
Sacrificing your own son (or other people) to a deity is certainly not a righteous deed.. PERIODIf there's a lesson learn from Mr. Abraham story, it is.. do not do human sacrifice... it's sickening, it's gruesome and it's irrational..
Moving forward in time.. I haven't read anywhere that "Mr. Jesus performed animal sacrifice / offering" or neither his cousin Mr. John..
And Mr Gautama however took the 'mindset reformation' much forward.
He rejected all form of 'sacrifice of living being' to please any deities.
Which was also a common practice during his lifetime..?Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.?
-- Siddharta Gautama -
The Middle East whatever. Tehere is no mention at all in the Qur'an of any human sacrifice whatsoever. The silly idea about a human sacrifice by Ibrhim in the Qur'an might come as well from Mars. Nothing about human sacrifice in the Qur'an. Once again, the whole of Qur'an is made subservient to biblical fancies.
Salaam
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Peace Arman;
Verse 37106 does not say "God tested Abraham"?
It just said it was a test. We can be tested by ourselves, by a dream ,by evil or by other things as awell as by GOD.
Abraham believed his dream. The dream had nothing to do with GOD.
On the contrary, GOD saved Abraham from committing a horrendous crime.
Salam Good Logic.
EVERYTHING that happens is from near God. Whatever good happens to us is from God, whatever evil happens is from our soul. But our soul, too, is from God, so it is God all the way.
When Pharaoh tortured the children of Israel, of course God did not sanction the torture but He did give Pharaoh the authority/liberty to execute the torture. So, at the end it was a severe trial for the children of Israel destined by God.
Similarly. when Abraham dreamt of slaughtering his son, of course God did not sanction the man-slaughter but He did allow Abraham to be momentarily diverted with such dream. So, at the end it was a trial for Abraham destined by God.
When ISIS raises havoc in the Middle East and beyond, of course God does not sanction their heinous acts but He has provided them some temporary leeway in doing what they are doing. So, at the end it is a trial for the ?Muslims? and mankind in general - destined by God.
If your understanding of God is that he is a deity of goodness who seats helplessly when evil triumphs (even momentarily) ? your idea of God is fundamentally different from my idea of God. The God I worship is the Master of the Universe, He is in absolute control of everything that is happening in the universe ? from atoms to galaxies - seen and unseen - good or evil ? through which He continually tests which of His creations are best in action. It is His show all the way.
From my perspective Mr. Abraham failed the test... miserably..
Sacrificing your own son (or other people) to a deity is certainly not a righteous deed.. PERIODSalam Jafar.
It has to be one of the rare occasions you have surprised me with a rather silly remark. Abraham DID NOT slaughter anyone. He successfully triumphed over the provocative dream and REFUSED TO SLAUGHTER when he put his son down upon his forehead (note turning face on upside down position signifies a decision not to slaughter).
37102 And when he reached with him exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."
37103 And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead,
37104 We called to him, "O Abraham,
37105 You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
37106 Indeed, this was the clear trial.
37107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice,
(Translation by Sahaih International, emphasis added.)
If you are judging Abraham by traditional narration where he closed his eyes, threw his knife blindly and after opening his eyes found a ram slaughtered instead of his son - then yes that would mean he FAILED. But that is not what Qur?an says. Qur?an clearly implies he deliberately decided not to proceed with the man-slaughter ? ?and he put him down upon his forehead?.
Peace on Abraham.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam Arman,
I agree with you,
The total story is about Abrahams faith about his one God compared to that of his own people who prayed to idols and had strange rigid rituals to please their Gods.
Sacrificing ritual should be a practice those times and should have been followed for different reasons like extreme suffering, poverty etc...
To me he should have passed the test(found the right way) even by the time he told his son about the dream and asked for his opinion, God telling him to stop this kind of rituals is a guidance to Abraham and by the way he changed his heart to stop human sacrifice, instead sacrifice of animal to solve his problems(which he felt is right for him). Thus he found his right better way(fulfilled his vision)
here the change of his heart is what i feel the story is all about.
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That could be plausible, that it was Abraham's own bias which led him to what he was going to do and he saw the error at the moment he was at the site and to that realization GOD signaled to him, but it still sounds a bit too farfetched. Anyway it was still not GOD's command for human slaughter.
Salaam
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Wa-sallam Amin.
Glad we are able to come to similar conclusions.
To me he should have passed the test(found the right way) even by the time he told his son about the dream and asked for his opinion...
Let's not be too quick to opine on the Prophets of Allah. From us sitting in the comfort of our house it is easy to conclude he should have discounted the dream right away... but perhaps from the perspective of someone who dedicated his entire life in preaching the obedience to One God... the lure of accepting a dream as a "potential sign from God" was too tempting.
What matters most is that he eventually managed to come out of the provocation.
God telling him to stop this kind of rituals ...
Once again per Qur'an God did not seem to have "explicity" told him to stop the slaughter. Abraham deliberately put his son face down (signifying a decision to not go ahead with the slaughter)... and only after that God confirmed that he has fulfilled the vision.
37103 And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead,
37104 We called to him, "O Abraham,
37105 You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
(Translation by Sahaih International, emphasis added.)
Peace upon Abraham.
May Allah guide us all to straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
But I am not sure "Abraham deliberately put his son face down" shows his decision to not to go with the sacrifice?
Salam Amin.
The logical process of slaughter is from the front side. The blood carrying arteries that are supposed to be severed in a slaughter are in the front side. If one puts one?s subject (animal or human) front side down (i.e. on the forehead for a primate) ? one?s knife will first have to go through the spine bones before it reaches the arteries ? an extremely inefficient and practically impossible approach to slaughter.
For me ?putting him down on forehead? means a last minute decision to refrain from the slaughter. I know traditionalists have different interpretation of this act ? but, as happens quite often, in my opinion traditionalists got it wrong as well. They say Abraham tried the slaughter from back side because the face of his son was making him weak. I seek refuge to Allah from such ignorance ? they not only portray Abraham as a maniac, but also as a stupid.
You are welcome to seek the truth based on your own judgment and understanding.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
You should not be so sure that the interpretation/translation is accurate at all to what you bring forth a source which claims it says.
Salaam
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Dreams and their interpretation is not Freud's invention, it exists from very old times everywhere. Ibrahim knew his dream, what he wanted was the interpretation, and when his son was old enough to talk with him about it, he consulted him. It is not at all about killing him, at no moment whatsoever, but about the interpretation of that dream which involves both of them. Isma3il shows his readiness to accept whatever it may mean and devolves the interpretation on his father, and Ibrahim does what his commmon sense dictates him, shows his readiness to accept God's dispositions, whatever they may be, by putting the boy in what looks like postration, that is, makes him do symbollically what he has doen his whole life in fact, submit to God, and both "aslamaa". Nowhere in the passage is there anything gore or trruculent or painful nor tremendous. Quite the opposite, the passage is a model of peacfulness and cheerfulness. A father-son tie sweet and pure. Nothing tragic. The "aslamaa" is the key and God tells them that is what was required of them.
No killing, no gore, sweet handing of oneself into God's loving hands. A proclamation also that our children are not our children but God's children, they are not in our ownership but, just like us, directly in God's hands.
Salaam
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Salamun alaikum.
From 37102 -
adhbauka (َ - root dhl b ( ح - to cut/slaughter.
Ref Lane Lexicon
http//www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text;jsessionid=3BCCA4190F7B33163113EA57670BD055?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2002.02.0023%3Aroot%3DbH%3Aentry%3DubaHa
The same root word used in surah baquarah in the context of Pharaoh slaughtering the sons of children of Israel and Moses instructing his people to slaughter a cow.
The content of the dream is quite obvious unless one is cooking up new meanings of common words.
HOWEVER, the act of puting him on forehead (may mean to make him prostrate to God) does signify a rejection of literal interpretation of the dream.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
It is arguable whether Pharaoh would keep slaughtering the 'Children of Israel' considered he needed them as slave labor to make the life easier for his people.
I think the word is twisted from sacrifice or use for a purpose such as in slavery. It says in the Pharaoh phrase tou referred to that Pharaoh enslaved your sons and not slaughtering them.
They only slaughtered sons at the prophetic announcement that a prophet would be born which was Moses, just as Herod ordered the slaughter of many children at the announcement that the Messiah Jesus would be born. But it did not prevent the mouths of prophets from be heard.
Apart from that, Pharaoh could not afford to keep slaughtering sons indefinitely over a prolonged period. However, he did enslave them while they used to have a great freedom in Mesr during Joseph when the prophet brought the whole family of Israel to Mesr. They came to be persecuted when Pharaoh's people begun to perceive them as a threat due to their blessed nature.
The sacrifice in both this case and with Abraham's alleged slaughter case was probably their confirmation and establishment of the ranks of prophets. It is strange to me that Quran says Ishmael is the person here while it was Isaaq who had the succession line of prophets in their branch of the family. Ishmael is supposed to be a bastard (child outside of marriage) since it was Sarah's handmaid who conceived Ishmael and not his wife. The handmaid was later frozen out and had to leave hypocritically because it was Sarah's choice in the first place to let her father a son for Abraham. If the story is true or not is irrelevant though because it is Isaaq who fathers Yacuub and the continuing line of prophets. And Ishmael is Abraham's firstborn son regardless of the mother. However, despite this Isaaq is blessed with a continuous line of prophets to become the 'Children of Israel'.
Ishmael is a prophet according to the Quran and it could be related to that after Sarah's handmaid Hajjar was driven off, an angel came forth and announced that Ishmael also would become big and the father of a great people while she sat crying along the road somewhere.
These narrations show the clear disadvantages of polygamy as well and it would appear that polygamy was disapproved of in this case. Despite Ishmael being born first it was Isaaq who had the birthright of a firstborn and brought the succession of prophets forward.
Personally I consider that it was Isaaq who went with Abraham for the covenant. However, it says Ishmael and Abraham laid the foundation of the assembly but that could have to do with Ishmael being much older like adolescent and Isaaq not yet born. But it came forth that Isaaq would be the one blessed and chosen.
It could also be a true narrative of the real events of the separation of Ishmael that he saw a vision that he would go and form a new community of service to GOD because it is clear that Ishmael and Isaaq went two different paths. It may be the kind of sacrifice the narrative wants to imply, the giving (surrender) to service and establishment of a covenant. It would likely also have been a hard decision for Abraham to sacrifice his son to travel away because he probably loved Ishmael just as much as Isaaq (taken Isaaq had been born). The thing I am sure of is that there was whatsoever no Pagan sacrifice in question in the narrative.
I think that the word is restricted to sacrifice/devote but does not have a connotation as slaughter. Arabic words have just one meaning so either the word means clearly slaughter or it means sacrifice, not both because they are different enough meanings to be incompatible. I vote for sacrifice/devote. The sons mentioned in the context of Pharaoh were sacrificed to be servants. The leaders of the 'Children of Israel' likely had to sacrifice of their population to serve Pharaoh's crazy construction projects. Pharaoh did not continuously slaughter sons, that would only hamper his source of labor in the long run.No. I doubt the encounter with the son had to do with slaughter but it was about the covenant to be established and Abraham and his progeny to be chosen. To sort of be GOD's slaves/servants. The 'Children of Israel' instead became servants to Pharaoh and the imposed service to Pharaoh is your word for sacrifice you look for. The sons of the 'Children of Israel' were forced to serve Pharaoh with labor and it may as well be that the daughters were taken into harems those that pleased Pharaoh. Usually it seems like Pharaoh was quite a racist however so it seems strange that he would want to have sex with the Hebrews.
You need to consider you may follow thousands of years of falsehood in testimony. You need to consider what you read. Human sacrifice is a Pagan/jinn activity and you would probably not think that father Abraham did such deeds or even think of it?
And that this would be the ultimate submission. It is crazy, madness. No. He saw a vision and he did accordingly all the way and it was accepted. They may as well have been called to this site just like Moses was called to Mount Sinai.
Salaam
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Dreams are dreams and are interpreteed since a long long time ago, it was no novelty either for Ibrahim or for the contemporaries of the Qur'an's revelation. Dreams are not taken, either in the past or now, as meaning physically what they depict. Dreams are symbolical, not actual events. All of us would be hard put to make dreams into reality. The very idea that it should be taken literally is so impossible and absurd... If you sink to the bottom of a pit in a dream, do you even think of it having a "litteral" meaning? And people have known that always and therefore, when a dream seemed to them to have a meaning, they tried to interpret it or have somebody interppret it, preferably somebody knowledgeble in that field.
And again, there is no mention in the whole of Qur'an of such a thing as a human sacrifice. But on the other hand there is in Qur'an the interpretation of dreams or visions, like Yusuf's. Nobody comes up with the silly idea that they are "litteral" cows, thin or fat. Not Yusuf, not even people of far mental or spiritual level than Yusuf.
?What is the use of the Qur'an explaining, by Ibrahim's saying, that he sees that in his dreams if then we are to interpret out thin air that what they are talking is about butchering a human being?
And on top of that, in the face of something that if it were true would be of an enormous brutality for any person, prophets included, Ibrahim and Isma3il seem to be wholly unaffected. They strut happily along as if they were on a picnic. Which might have been, because the scene is quite peaceful, far from dramatic, moving in its simplicity and loving expresions between father and son, with the use of diminutives and all that marks the intimacy between them, and the humility of the father, consulting with his young son something that may have been occupying him a long time, but ?what a modellic behaviour by this old man! he keeps it to himself till he can exchange on it with his son when he is mature enough. No planning ahead for him, not binding him to his own visions, but humbly and affectionately consulting. He is indeed a beautiful example of a gentleman and prophet.
Bible mindset seems to have at times a really murderous influence on common sense.
No human sacrifice is mentioned in the Qur'an. None never, except in a dream, this dream.
But, for the failures of the Qur'an (astaghfirullah), we have the Bible setting things right and putting the butchering of a person in offering to God where it should be, as the indisputable merit a prophet of God at the end of his life. A long life of service to truth and humanity without compromise or concession to the fancies of spoilt humans. Again it seems that common sense is the least common of senses and very hard to swallow. It is understandable, butchering somebody, particularly a loved one, is by far more inspiring, for God's sake.
Salaam
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Another revealing word
Isma3il says you will see that I am of the patient ones.
Patience is not precisely the quality that would be called for for a butchering may be courage, strength...
But patience is something that has more to do with withstanding for a length of time, rather long length of time. For patience to be right in the context what Isma3il envisages has to be something that will entail sacrifice from him for a length of time. Something he must put up with for the foreseeable future. Not something that is going to be done to him, once, but somethingwith which he must contend on the long term.
Salaam
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Salaam huruf,
Yes. It could be about the establishment of the covenant and Ishmael's devotion to be a prophet and that he later had to travel and be the leader in a distant land. This is a sacrifice for Abraham because his son will be gone.
Abraham could have traveled away there with Ishmael and from there he sacrificed Ishmael to separate from him to make a community there.
No matter what it was there was no life at stake. That would have been unrighteous and against the decree. GOD would not contradict the own decree.
Whenever I have the time I am going to study these passages and see what they really say 100%, if GOD permits.
Salaam
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I think the whole passage, like so many of the Qur'an stories may be the source of many refletions and lessons. Like poetry, each person may find in it what it needs to know her or himself. Therein lies a magnificent aspecto of these stories, that they are suggestive but not constricting, making them very fruitful.
What I fin most moving in this story is the affectionate tone, the simplicity, the sincere feeling in it, giving relief, not just to the prophet and his son but to all humans, because what it says is that any sacrifice we do in the best intention, with pure heart, its source and its aim is in the love of God, the greatest reward and the greatest satisfaction. Particularly regarding offspring, we tend to have expectations and aims which are beyond our power and we do not bear in mind that children are nto ours, but God's, that we have no right nor reason to expect them to turn out to0 our pleasure or satisfaction. We should respect their destiny and God's property of them as well as of everything else.
Salaam
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Peace Arman .
What you say here
If your understanding of God is that he is a deity of goodness who seats helplessly when evil triumphs (even momentarily) ? your idea of God is fundamentally different from my idea of God. The God I worship is the Master of the Universe, He is in absolute control of everything that is happening in the universe ? from atoms to galaxies - seen and unseen - good or evil ? through which He continually tests which of His creations are best in action. It is His show all the way.
This has nothing to do with the point I was making. Regardless of what we understand what or who GOD is, there is no contradiction/ should be no contradiction in GOD s words.
GOD does not test anyone by asking them to "sacrifice" a human,because one of HIS main commandments is"DO NOT KILL" for no valid reason!!!!!!
That is the point I was making.
GOD bless you.
Peace.