Your opinions About Umrah
-
I just find it to be Pagan ritualism. Words and even passages used in Quran are only falsely used to infer a kind of pilgrimage while they actually speak of something else.
Hajj, Umrah, Kabah, Masjed Haram etc are words supposed to say something else.
For example, the root used for Hajj is which could imply an undertaking. I consider it to speak of volunteer charity work (like a service). A good example is the sacrifice the disciples of Jesus do to go around spreading the word of GOD. That is the real Hajj and there are hints of it. I think I had a post about it in the Nearness and Guidance thread somewhere.
Salaam
-
I recommend
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.htmlThank you for the link, i'll take a look .
Regards,
-
I just find it to be Pagan ritualism. Words and even passages used in Quran are only falsely used to infer a kind of pilgrimage while they actually speak of something else.
Hajj, Umrah, Kabah, Masjed Haram etc are words supposed to say something else.
For example, the root used for Hajj is which could imply an undertaking. I consider it to speak of volunteer charity work (like a service). A good example is the sacrifice the disciples of Jesus do to go around spreading the word of GOD. That is the real Hajj and there are hints of it. I think I had a post about it in the Nearness and Guidance thread somewhere.
Salaam
Hello,
I felt that way last time i was there, as it is just rituals without any spiritiulaity. I'll search & read the post. Helpful as usual Man of Faith, thank you.
Salam,
-
Salamun Alaikum.
There is no spirituality in any place, any book, any food or any dress. Spirituality only resides within one?s spirit. It is personal and internal.
However, rituals, books, dresses, pilgrimage all can potentially prime (See http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_(psychology)) an individual to a certain frame of mind. For example when we visit our childhood school we are often primed to feel nostalgic about our childhood; when we visit a monument dedicated to war memory, we are primed to evoke memory or reverence for the war.
Umrah (visit/pilgrimage) potentially has similar effect on those who associate the place of pilgrimage with spirituality. Whoever, can take this advantage has only himself to benefit from it. On the contrary, whoever fails to get any spiritual experience from a pilgrimage has only his own soul to account for why he went for that pilgrimage in the first place.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salaam arman,
This is why I use to say "No place is holier than its inhabitants". I think you can interpret that, you seem to be able to contemplate well.
This is why people came to the prophets because they made the location/situation they were at holy, but if they are gone it is not holier than the teachings they brought and are upheld. An old house itself has no holiness whatsoever.
A people is holy if it lives up to the holiness, i.e. .
Salaam
-
Salamun Alaikum.
There is no spirituality in any place, any book, any food or any dress. Spirituality only resides within one?s spirit. It is personal and internal.
However, rituals, books, dresses, pilgrimage all can potentially prime (See http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_(psychology)) an individual to a certain frame of mind. For example when we visit our childhood school we are often primed to feel nostalgic about our childhood; when we visit a monument dedicated to war memory, we are primed to evoke memory or reverence for the war.
Umrah (visit/pilgrimage) potentially has similar effect on those who associate the place of pilgrimage with spirituality. Whoever, can take this advantage has only himself to benefit from it. On the contrary, whoever fails to get any spiritual experience from a pilgrimage has only his own soul to account for why he went for that pilgrimage in the first place.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanHello,
Good point, but this is not the problem. The problem is what if this a wrong prime? Arabs before Muhammad, used to worship fetishes in this exact place, what if they invented this whole process because they felt nostalgic for their old practices?
Regards,
-
Hello,
Good point, but this is not the problem. The problem is what if this a wrong prime? Arabs before Muhammad, used to worship fetishes in this exact place, what if they invented this whole process because they felt nostalgic for their old practices?
Regards,
Salam Seekingthetruth.
First of all... you may not have noticed, my comments were for the exercise of pilgrimage in general, not that of a specific religion.
But anyways, to address your specific question here... per my understanding it does not matter. If someone goes to Taj Mahal with the intention of appreciating Mughal architechture - he will get that appreciation from the visit. On the other hand if someone is going there to witness the product of exploitation of Mughal Emperor he will not be deprived either. The impact on individual's mind depends on each individuals personal mindset and intensions - the place / building has no magical property.
Similarly whether a visit to Kabaa would spiritually stimulate one would also depend solely on the individuals mental disposition towards the place - not any magical property of Kabaa. It's entire function is to serve as a "symbol". If one can have faith in it as a symbol of Allah, it will help him get "primed" - irrespective of its history; else it will merely be an obligatory visit.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Salam Seekingthetruth.
First of all... you may not have noticed, my comments were for the exercise of pilgrimage in general, not that of a specific religion.
But anyways, to address your specific question here... per my understanding it does not matter. If someone goes to Taj Mahal with the intention of appreciating Mughal architechture - he will get that appreciation from the visit. On the other hand if someone is going there to witness the product of exploitation of Mughal Emperor he will not be deprived either. The impact on individual's mind depends on each individuals personal mindset and intensions - the place / building has no magical property.
Similarly whether a visit to Kabaa would spiritually stimulate one would also depend solely on the individuals mental disposition towards the place - not any magical property of Kabaa. It's entire function is to serve as a "symbol". If one can have faith in it as a symbol of Allah, it will help him get "primed" - irrespective of its history; else it will merely be an obligatory visit.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanAgreed
People go to the movies and think it was a great experience, but if someone makes salat
or go on hajj which are acts of religious devotion, they are questioned, why?
because its all so personal as you have stated.God bless you
peace
-
Symbol is wrong because you are told not to make any image that represents GOD in Heaven or Earth. Do you break that commandment because of tradition?
And no place is holier than its inhabitants.
Salaam
-
Symbol is wrong because you are told not to make any image that represents GOD in Heaven or Earth. Do you break that commandment because of tradition?
And no place is holier than its inhabitants.
Salaam
Peace Man of Faith, What's wrong with you? You cannot represent Allah no matter
how hard you try, that would be in vain. What images are you referring to! brickwall ouch!God bless you
peace
-
Salaam hawk99,
Is that for you to decide? I am trying to represent Allah/be immersed in the image/realm. That is the best honoring of The Rabb I can think of.If you want symbols breaking the decree this is up to you. It is a human tradition.
What images I refer to? The materialization and separation of the GOD phenomenon into a distinct image. It has often been called Paganism. Either concrete (Kabah etc) or abstract (treating GOD as an object of Heaven).
Salaam
-
If you want symbols breaking the decree this is up to you. It is a human tradition.
What images I refer to? The materialization and separation of the GOD phenomenon into
a distinct image. It has often been called Paganism. Either concrete (Kabah etc) or abstract
(treating GOD as an object of Heaven).Peace Man of Faith, thank you for taking time to reply to my post.
The Ka'aba is not an image of Allah, there is no such thing as an "image of Allah"
concrete or abstract, it is good that you are seeking to avoid them, but images
of Allah do not exist. Allah cannot be "materialized or separated".
I suggest for the moment you only use Quran for your understanding
and avoid peoples perceptions, and conclusions to reach your understanding.
No offense intended.5/2 O you who have believed, do not violate the rites of Allah or the
sacred month or the sacrificial animals and garlanding
or those coming to the Sacred House seeking bounty from their
Lord and approval. But when you come out of ihram, then hunt. And
do not let the hatred of a people for having obstructed you from al-Masjid al-haram
lead you to transgress. And cooperate in righteousness and piety, but do not cooperate
in sin and aggression. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.5/48 And We have revealed to you, , the Book in truth, confirming that
which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by
what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come
to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed,
He would have made you one nation , but to test you
in what He has given you; so race to good. To Allah is your return all together,
and He will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.God bless you
peace
-
Salam Seekingthetruth.
First of all... you may not have noticed, my comments were for the exercise of pilgrimage in general, not that of a specific religion.
But anyways, to address your specific question here... per my understanding it does not matter. If someone goes to Taj Mahal with the intention of appreciating Mughal architechture - he will get that appreciation from the visit. On the other hand if someone is going there to witness the product of exploitation of Mughal Emperor he will not be deprived either. The impact on individual's mind depends on each individuals personal mindset and intensions - the place / building has no magical property.
Similarly whether a visit to Kabaa would spiritually stimulate one would also depend solely on the individuals mental disposition towards the place - not any magical property of Kabaa. It's entire function is to serve as a "symbol". If one can have faith in it as a symbol of Allah, it will help him get "primed" - irrespective of its history; else it will merely be an obligatory visit.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanHello,
Sure it depends on the person's beliefs, but if we apply this understanding in things like Jihad "killing others in the name of Allah" in traditional Islam (e.g. ISIS) may be the the person will feel as if he is meeting the call of Allah and even consider it as a spiritual ritual. I know that Hajj and Umrah are not like killing and may have spiritual benefits for some people, but if i look from another perspective i can see how some governments make it a way to get more money from people, while some people are extremely poor and they struggle to collect its cost. This money which is spent annually on Hajj and Umrah could cause a change in poor countries or even someone's life. My country is very poor and i can see these things clearly and even more.
Is it really an islamic ritual? or it was a way to make people keep visiting Mecca for trading? or they just understand it like this according to their pagan background ? as it has benefits, it has disadvantages too, i can't just say exorcism is a cure for cancer, it may cure some people because of the placebo effect, but it is still not the real cure in this case.
Regards,
-
Agreed
People go to the movies and think it was a great experience, but if someone makes salat
or go on hajj which are acts of religious devotion, they are questioned, why?
because its all so personal as you have stated.God bless you
peace
Hello,
As long as i do not make watching movies a something that make me better than others, nor making it a ticket to heaven so people feel guilty for not watching movies even if they can't, nor making it the 5th pillar of Islam nor making it a way to become forgiven and after that, resumption of doing bad things that i used to do before, it is ok to watch movies as long as i want. Otherwise, i have the right to ask "why?".
Salam,
-
Hello,
As long as i do not make watching movies a something that make me better
than others, nor making it a ticket to heaven so people feel guilty for not watching movies
even if they can't, nor making it the 5th pillar of Islam nor making it a way to become
forgiven and after that, resumption of doing bad things that i used to do before, it is ok
to watch movies as long as i want. Otherwise, i have the right to ask "why?".Salam,
Nice! Now substitute Hajj for movies!
As long as i do not make watching movies (Hajj, Ramadan, salat) something that
make me better than others, nor making it a ticket to heaven so people feel guilty
for not watching movies (Observing Hajj, Ramadan, salat) even if they can't, nor
making it the 5th pillar of Islam nor making it a way to become forgiven and after
that, resumption of doing bad things that i used to do before, it is ok to watch
movies make (Hajj, Ramadan, salat) as long as i want. Otherwise, i have the
right to ask (You) "why?".God bless you
peace
-
Hello,
Sure it depends on the person's beliefs, but if we apply this understanding in things like Jihad "killing others in the name of Allah" in traditional Islam (e.g. ISIS) may be the the person will feel as if he is meeting the call of Allah and even consider it as a spiritual ritual. I know that Hajj and Umrah are not like killing and may have spiritual benefits for some people, but if i look from another perspective i can see how some governments make it a way to get more money from people, while some people are extremely poor and they struggle to collect its cost. This money which is spent annually on Hajj and Umrah could cause a change in poor countries or even someone's life. My country is very poor and i can see these things clearly and even more.
Is it really an islamic ritual? or it was a way to make people keep visiting Mecca for trading? or they just understand it like this according to their pagan background ? as it has benefits, it has disadvantages too, i can't just say exorcism is a cure for cancer, it may cure some people because of the placebo effect, but it is still not the real cure in this case.
Regards,
Salam seekingthetruth.
Your original point was whether we believe one can get spiritual ?incentive? from visiting to a religious site (specifically Kabaa). To that point my answer, in a nutshell was, YES, it is possible that if one has faith in Kabaa as a symbol (Arabic Sha?aeer) of Allah, one can get primed to a mindset devoted to Allah by visiting Kabaa and it could help one to reflect upon one?s purpose and goal of life with devotion and seriousness.
Given we both agree on the above, you have raised a couple of different points in your reply, namely
- If someone (e.g. ISIS) accepts killing in the name of Allah to be a sacred act, should it be acceptable.
- Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on individual.
- Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on a nation.
Let me briefly touch on each of these points
If someone accepts killing in the name of Allah to be a sacred act, should it be acceptable.
The first and foremost teaching of Islam ? the fundamental is ? we must reject all artificial deities and have faith in the One who is the Master (Creator and Sustainer) of the entire universe. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies accepting the right of all creations in the universe to be dealt with ?fairly?. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies upholding our God-gifted intellect and conscience. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies being grateful for the gift of life and accepting our responsibility to facilitate all creations in the best way possible as our inviolable obligation. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies being patient in the life of this world and remain convinced that God is the ultimate authority to ensure justice to the universe ? in this life or hereafter.
Now, whoever deviates from having faith in the Master of the entire universe and starts to worship an artifical deity projected out of a book / religion / clan / race and strives to get worldly gain (set up a state, khilafat, kingdom etc.) by following the leaders of the book / religion / clan / race as partner to God and thereby violate their God-gifted intellect and conscience ? have indeed deviated into a wide deviation. Their ritual, their devotion, their striving (jihad) is NOT in the path of God, but in the path of devil. It is not for God to forgive them, nor to guide them to a trail ? except the trail to hell, they be in it forever.
Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on individual.
The act of pilgrimage has always been recommended for those who are able. For those who are able, we do not question if going for higher education is financially burdensome or even going for a holiday abroad is financially burdensome ? but if someone tries to visit a place for spiritual solace and enrichment, immediately we start to become concerned about the financial burden?
HOWEVER, if anyone is exploiting the pilgrims to unduly extract extra money, it is a different issue altogether. That must be considered as sinful like any form of exploitation.
Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on a nation.
Arguably due to the pilgrimage the people at the site of the pilgrimage get some financial benefit. But to what extent? Let?s take a look at the information here
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings
Note
-
Saudi Arabia (KSA) is not among the top 10 countries by number of annual tourist visit. France has #1 position with 84.7million visitors, while Thailand has # 10 position with 26.5 million visitors. Compared to these destinations KSA has 13.2 million annual visitor. Also note, very few of the top 10 tourist destination countries actually have any significant religious site (perhaps Italy being the exception).
-
No ?Muslim? country is in the list of ?International tourism expenditure in 2013?. So, it seems a bit farfetched that ?Muslim? countries are spending too much money in Hajj and Umrah compared to what other countries are spending on various forms of tourism.
Given this data, do you still feel that ?religious tourism? in comparison to any other form of tourism is more of a money ?spender? in the global context? Most importantly there is no economic evidence that ?overseas tourism? harms the economy of a country; rather most economists would argue that international travel and tourism facilitates and boosts economic activity in general.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Nice! Now substitute Hajj for movies!
As long as i do not make watching movies (Hajj, Ramadan, salat) something that
make me better than others, nor making it a ticket to heaven so people feel guilty
for not watching movies (Observing Hajj, Ramadan, salat) even if they can't, nor
making it the 5th pillar of Islam nor making it a way to become forgiven and after
that, resumption of doing bad things that i used to do before, it is ok to watch
movies make (Hajj, Ramadan, salat) as long as i want. Otherwise, i have the
right to ask (You) "why?". )God bless you
peace
Hello,
In traditional Islam, Hajj & Umrah apply to all of the above. So, if they have not islamic origin "or not from Allah", it would be just another religious deception in my opinion.
Pilgrimage in Buddhism includes Circumambulating around a buddhist temple 7 times, wearing 2 pieces of cloth similar to those of muslims in Hajj "sometimes in white ones" and they shave their heads. In past they used to circumambulate around the temple without wearing any clothes. Arabs also used to do that before Islam, but after Islam, they wear Ihram. Till now, very strict Monks tend to do Circumambulating while they are nude.
In Zoroastrian, there are 5 prayers a day, they have ablution before pray, which is washing face, hands and feet. Regarding Ramadan, i do not know about it yet.
I suggest that these rituals are humans needs, but not God's needs and they invented them to fulfil their own needs. That is why we see similarities in rituals between different religions. Unless you have another explanation hmm
Btw, i still pray, not because i feel this how i should worship Allah, but because of the pressure that i may face if people around me know about my new thinking. Putting people in pressure to perform some rituals is not like making them watching a movie.
God bless us all.
-
Salam seekingthetruth.
Your original point was whether we believe one can get spiritual ?incentive? from visiting to a religious site (specifically Kabaa). To that point my answer, in a nutshell was, YES, it is possible that if one has faith in Kabaa as a symbol (Arabic Sha?aeer) of Allah, one can get primed to a mindset devoted to Allah by visiting Kabaa and it could help one to reflect upon one?s purpose and goal of life with devotion and seriousness.
Given we both agree on the above, you have raised a couple of different points in your reply, namely
- If someone (e.g. ISIS) accepts killing in the name of Allah to be a sacred act, should it be acceptable.
- Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on individual.
- Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on a nation.
Let me briefly touch on each of these points
If someone accepts killing in the name of Allah to be a sacred act, should it be acceptable.
The first and foremost teaching of Islam ? the fundamental is ? we must reject all artificial deities and have faith in the One who is the Master (Creator and Sustainer) of the entire universe. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies accepting the right of all creations in the universe to be dealt with ?fairly?. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies upholding our God-gifted intellect and conscience. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies being grateful for the gift of life and accepting our responsibility to facilitate all creations in the best way possible as our inviolable obligation. Having ?Faith? in the Master of the entire universe implies being patient in the life of this world and remain convinced that God is the ultimate authority to ensure justice to the universe ? in this life or hereafter.
Now, whoever deviates from having faith in the Master of the entire universe and starts to worship an artifical deity projected out of a book / religion / clan / race and strives to get worldly gain (set up a state, khilafat, kingdom etc.) by following the leaders of the book / religion / clan / race as partner to God and thereby violate their God-gifted intellect and conscience ? have indeed deviated into a wide deviation. Their ritual, their devotion, their striving (jihad) is NOT in the path of God, but in the path of devil. It is not for God to forgive them, nor to guide them to a trail ? except the trail to hell, they be in it forever.
Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on individual.
The act of pilgrimage has always been recommended for those who are able. For those who are able, we do not question if going for higher education is financially burdensome or even going for a holiday abroad is financially burdensome ? but if someone tries to visit a place for spiritual solace and enrichment, immediately we start to become concerned about the financial burden?
HOWEVER, if anyone is exploiting the pilgrims to unduly extract extra money, it is a different issue altogether. That must be considered as sinful like any form of exploitation.
Is the pilgrimage a financial burden on a nation.
Arguably due to the pilgrimage the people at the site of the pilgrimage get some financial benefit. But to what extent? Let?s take a look at the information here
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings
Note
-
Saudi Arabia (KSA) is not among the top 10 countries by number of annual tourist visit. France has #1 position with 84.7million visitors, while Thailand has # 10 position with 26.5 million visitors. Compared to these destinations KSA has 13.2 million annual visitor. Also note, very few of the top 10 tourist destination countries actually have any significant religious site (perhaps Italy being the exception).
-
No ?Muslim? country is in the list of ?International tourism expenditure in 2013?. So, it seems a bit farfetched that ?Muslim? countries are spending too much money in Hajj and Umrah compared to what other countries are spending on various forms of tourism.
Given this data, do you still feel that ?religious tourism? in comparison to any other form of tourism is more of a money ?spender? in the global context? Most importantly there is no economic evidence that ?overseas tourism? harms the economy of a country; rather most economists would argue that international travel and tourism facilitates and boosts economic activity in general.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanSalam Arman,
Yes, i talked about my personal experience because at that time, i did not have any other purpose for it except spirituality, then i asked about your opinions in general about Umrah because i became suspecious about it.
Thank you for your input and these data. KSA with its current situation, has no other way to attract this number of tourists. For other islamic countries, talking about my own country, it is one way of tens ways to exploit people under under a religious cover. Why would people should accept being fooled by religious ritual even if the economic cost not a big deal "as you've said"? If these rituals are similar with other religions, they might be man made. I think people deserve to know the truth and not being exploited. Even if it is only a penny.
Regards,
-
Thanks Seekingthe truth.
I share your concerns. Hope you didn't miss my below comment in my last post
"HOWEVER, if anyone is exploiting the pilgrims to unduly extract extra money, it is a different issue altogether. That must be considered as sinful like any form of exploitation."
Regards,
Arman
