Is Jerusalem the Qibla?
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Salam,
Just to note, some point on why I am a believer in Jerusalem being the Bakka of the Quran
- Bakka is the name of the site of the pilgrimage. Bakka is the name given to Jerusalem in maps as well as in the Bible (Pslams);
- All followers of Abraham (Jews, Nazarenes) know Jerusalem as the "holy site"...None of them heard of Mecca;
- The Dome of the Rock houses a stone on which Abraham supposeldy was about to sacrifice his son "maqama/station/trial of Abraham". The Quran tells us that such place lies "within" the Temple/Shrine as it does in Jerusalem - not "without" as it does in Mecca;
- The Muslism prayed towards Jerusalem since the early days of the prophet and acknowledge it as the "1st Qibla";
- The Quran speaks of "figs and olives" as being associated with the holy shrine. These things are native to Palestine/Jerusalem, not Mecca Arabia;
- The Quran speaks of a "raised ceiling" on the holy shrine. This fits the Dome of the Doem of the Rock, but not the flat roof on Mecca;
- The Dome of the Rock is a building with 8 sides, which corresponds to God's throne being carried by "eight" - no such symbolysim in Mecca;
- The Quran prophecises that the Children of Israel will concur the area of the Temple/Masjid. This has become true of Jerusalem, but will never be true with Mecca.
Regards,
SLM,
.. ? "building" with 8 sides !?
Is this is th? "biblo" ??
Peace & Truth on Earth & above our "heads" -
Jaimesss - with all due respect, this thread is impossible to follow when you have 3 pages of posts back to back quoting and responding to everyone else. It would be helpful if you would choose one post to respond to and then wait on the author to respond.
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There are two masjids in the Quran
- Masjid alharam
- Masjid alqasa
How can Jerusalem be the Qibla, if there is two masjids, and the traditional belief is that Alaqsa is in Jerusalem?
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Peace be upon you all
I have read this thread from the first pages. I just want to ask simple question
Did anyone ever going to Mecca, Madinah? either for haj or umrah?
brother raging gaijin? or anyone?Did anyyone ever been to Beqqa? in jerusalem, either doing haj or umrah?
brother Layth, KD501, (for the proponent of beqqa valley in lebanon? Jerusalem)I hope you all can give me simple and honest answer. Thank you
Salam
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Quote
There are two masjids in the Quran- Masjid alharam
- Masjid alqasa
How can Jerusalem be the Qibla, if there is two masjids, and the traditional belief is that Alaqsa is in Jerusalem?
UnquoteWhile the Quran mentions two 'masjids', we all think of it as a Mosque (a physical building) as we know it today. But we all know that no such things as the 'mosques' existed during the revelation of the Quran. There were no physical buildings as such and the 'mosque', commonly refer to as 'Al Aqsa Mosque' today was not built until much later after the death of Prophet Muhammed. So God could not have been referring to a 'physical building as the 'masjid' in the Quran.
Therefore, it seems logical to think that the meaning of the word, 'masjid' may be something else. Looking through various forums, one explanation of the meaning of the word is, 'a place for sajda'. This creates a problem for me as this implies that only these places are where 'sajda' is to be performed. Second, the word 'haram' means forbidden, restricted etc, then the meaning of the word 'masjid al haram' will be 'forbidden or restricted place of sajda'; and 'masjid al aqsa will mean 'fringes of the place of sajda' (By the way, in the Quran, the word 'aqsa' elsewhere means 'nearby' or 'fringes of', never 'far away'.)
In 171, where both of these words appear, most translators have translated 'Masjid alharam' as 'sacred masjid' or 'inviolable house of worship', (Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, Asad) while others are more precise and translate as 'restricted temple' (Edip-Layth-Martha). All of the translators translate 'Masjid alaqsa' as the 'farthest mosque' erroneously.
But if the Masjid Al Aqsa did not exist at the time, then what is this thing that God is referring to? One possible explanation will be that since 'sajda' means a physical prostration as well as to 'consent' to something, perhaps God is referring to a 'restriction' and 'fringes' of "something" that has been "consented to" such as a decree by God.
The next question one should ask is, Does 'Qibla' means a 'direction' for prayer?
Comments and clarifications are welcomed.
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M - sujud refers to an attribute of someone or something that is sujud. A building can hardly be sujud being a lifeless structure, since it means to be respectful and of servitude for a purpose (even the traditional erroneous prostration does fit poorly). However, masjed could refer to the status of a person being respectful or humble, just as mariz contains an attribute reference to someone.
People generally seem a bit unaware of how the prefix meem (م works on Arabic words. It gives 'status' or 'condition' of someone or something.
Salaam
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peace all,
Please see
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.htmlkirikanan,
Also consider the possibility that Abraham may have been in one location, and Muhammad in another, and Muhammad simply reinstituted al hajj in his locality. This is my view.shad,
What occurrence/reference of "aqsa" meaning "nearby" are you referring to? Please see Qaf-Saad-Waw
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm -
kirikanan,
Also consider the possibility that Abraham may have been in one location, and Muhammad in another, and Muhammad simply reinstituted al hajj in his locality. This is my view.Ok bro. )
May I ask where exactly is the place, according to your believe? then, Have you been to hajj or umrah that place?Thank you and Salam
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I would argue that hajj comes from the root Ha-Waw-Jiim ( ج which has some definitions in classical Arabic dictionaries, but a few are "put one's interest aside" and "to seek or seek after" and "incline towards a person" and "find necessary to do or that one should do a thing". I personally interpret it as the service you do before GOD, absolutely not necessarily so-called pilgrimage.
Salaam
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My question is; Does 'Hajj' means pilgrimage?
My (current) understanding is that
QA. l-g () means the assembly, or celebration
Derived from the (Arabian/Semitic) root gg ~ to celebrate.In the Qurn, the term seems to designate a divinely-ordained festival
ie. (a period of time set aside for) a community gathering to celebrate a particular occasion.See Aram. ]
Also, cf. Heb. (holiday).SLM
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Add.
Since the inviolable byt is somewhere in the Fertile Crescent,
one will indeed have to journey on a pilgrimage .Ps. In the Heb. Bible, g () is rendered feast, pilgrim-feast, or festival-gathering.
~ Cf. The Three Pilgrimage Festivals (in Judaism). -
SFM,
Finaly,
If mekka is not mekka,
From Where Mu'Hamad & th? Qura'ish came from !?
I am so "l'ost" ...
Peace & Truth on Earth & above our "heads"Very relevant question from jaimesss. Those placing the Qibla in Jerusalem will have to identify the Qura'ish as well. So far this question seems to be ignored.
Many arab nations still use the hawk of Quraish as their coat of arms or use it in their national flag. I'm trying to find sources that provide evidence of this emblem being used by the Quraish. Because it might help identifying them. Is it coincidence the oldest pottery fragments that refer to hebron and neigbouring cities have the same hawk/falcon emblem on them? I don't know, might be a dead end but worth looking at.
Concerning Petra I think this claim is pure speculation. There is no evidence of Muhammad having ever been there. It's hardly proof those deities as mentioned in Quran were one of those worshipped in Petra. The worship of those specific deities was widespread and not exlcusive to Petra.
I agree Mecca in Saudi Arabia for historical reasons can't possibly be the place Quran is referring to. It's not old enough historically to fit the description.
Peace
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peace all,
Please see
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.htmlkirikanan,
Also consider the possibility that Abraham may have been in one location, and Muhammad in another, and Muhammad simply reinstituted al hajj in his locality. This is my view.shad,
What occurrence/reference of "aqsa" meaning "nearby" are you referring to? Please see Qaf-Saad-Waw
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmAgreed
We know that the Qiblah was Jerusalem, the direction that all previous
Prophets and messengers faced during prayer, but then2/143 And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you
may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger
may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which
you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him
who follows the Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels,
and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided
aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless;
most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people.Muhammad fond of Mecca
2/144 Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven,
so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like;
turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever
you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given
the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and
Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.Masjid Al Qiblatain (Mosque of the two Qiblas)
Masjid al-Qiblatain ( ن (Mosque of the two Qiblas)
is a mosque in Medina that is historically important for Muslims
as the place where the Islamic prophet Muhammad, leading the
prayer, is said to have been commanded to change the direction
of prayer (qibla) from Jerusalem to Mecca. Thus it uniquely contained
two prayer niches (mihrabs).Recently the mosque was renovated;
the old prayer niche facing Jerusalem was removed, and the one
facing Mecca was left.God bless you
peace
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Agreed
We know that the Qiblah was Jerusalem, the direction that all previous
Prophets and messengers faced during prayer, but then2/143 And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you
may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger
may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which
you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him
who follows the Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels,
and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided
aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless;
most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people.Muhammad fond of Mecca
2/144 Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven,
so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like;
turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever
you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given
the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and
Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.Masjid Al Qiblatain (Mosque of the two Qiblas)
Masjid al-Qiblatain ( ن (Mosque of the two Qiblas)
is a mosque in Medina that is historically important for Muslims
as the place where the Islamic prophet Muhammad, leading the
prayer, is said to have been commanded to change the direction
of prayer (qibla) from Jerusalem to Mecca. Thus it uniquely contained
two prayer niches (mihrabs).Recently the mosque was renovated;
the old prayer niche facing Jerusalem was removed, and the one
facing Mecca was left.God bless you
peace
Do you have a Quranic/non-hadith or historical source for Muhammad changing prayer direction? Check this timeline http//searchformecca.com/timeline.html This timeline seems to contradict the change of Qiblah happened during Muhammads lifespan whatsoever.
Peace
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The next question one should ask is, Does 'Qibla' means a 'direction' for prayer?
Comments and clarifications are welcomed.
The Qurnic term qblh (ه n.f. qbl ~ to receive or accept] denotes a place of acceptance/welcome/hospitality
Ergo. a locality/destination of cordial reception (1087), instead of a so-called "prayer direction"!
In 2144, G-D promises the Messenger a new destination for settlement ...
One that the Messenger will appreciate/approve of .Is Jerusalem the Qibla?
Temple Mount was probably the first qblh/site of reception.
SLM
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The Qurnic term qblh (ه n.f. qbl ~ to receive or accept] denotes a place of acceptance/welcome/hospitality
Ergo. a locality/destination of cordial reception (1087), instead of a so-called "prayer direction"!
In 2144, G-D promises the Messenger a new destination for settlement ...
One that the Messenger will appreciate/approve of .Temple Mount was probably the first qblh/site of reception.
SLM
Etymological evidence seems to contradict this hicham9.
qibla direction Ful alkibila, Hin kibla, Ind kiblat, Per qeble borrowed from Ara
You have to understand you can't just change the meaning of an Arabic word when it has etymological roots in other languages.
Peace
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Etymological evidence seems to contradict this hicham9.
What "etymological evidence"!?
qibla direction Ful alkibila, Hin kibla, Ind kiblat, Per qeble borrowed from Ara
What is this!?
& what relevance does it hold/maintain!?
You have to understand you can't just change the meaning of an Arabic word when it has etymological roots in other languages.
What other languages!?
The Ajamean tongue!?
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What "etymological evidence"!?
What is this!?
& what relevance does it hold/maintain!?
What other languages!?
The Ajamean tongue!?
In this case the word is borrowed from the Aramaic qeble. The occurences in other languages have the same root in Aramaic. If you want to change the meaning of qibla in arabic you will have to make case for that being valid in Aramaic to begin with. So I suggest you find a proof qeble in Aramaic means what you are trying to project here.
Peace
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Actually, the Qurn doesn't depend/rely on Aramaic lexicons !
E.g., the Qurnic term mskyn () is defined/understood as 'poor' in MSA (and many colloquial dialects of Arabic). The term is further rendered a poor (man), in both Aramaic and C.Arabic lexicons! However, to understand the precise, intended meaning (of any Qurnic locution), one will need to dig back to the primary root meaning/s ~ and realize/figure out (on his/her own) that QA mskyn actually denotes the unsheltered = one without a mskn () ... Now, since G-D, our Master and Teacher, doesn't use synonyms , the Qurnic term for a 'poor (person)' is fqyr .
SLM
