Hafs & Warsh Quran prints, variants in texts, please post your best examples
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Peace free minds
I read layths paper on "which Quran", excellent scholarly work, thank you layth
Using only the Hafs & Warsh Quran prints
Are there any other verses between the 2, where actual full words are missing/added
Layths example of Surah 5724 were in Hafs in reads "Allaha HUWA alghaniyu"
In the Warsh the "HUWA" is not there
Please post any other verses were actual WORDS are missing/added, like the "HUWA" example layth pointed to
Peace, thank you free minds members
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Salaam,
That is bad. I actually think the version without HUWA (Warsh) is the correct account. The HUWA may be there because it was required grammatically to reinforce the literary model that GOD is a distinctly separate entity as their hoax became weak otherwise in the context. Quran does teach the Unity (ahad) in GOD (Allah) of which everyone serves who knows themselves and not a separate Pagan idol called Allah.
However, the missing HUWA could be a scribe error as well, but it appears deliberate and the addition of HUWA adds a different interpretive possibility. It is important to notice that the Arabic frequently says "An Allah " in the end of passages, teaching the traits to be assimilated by a person who accepts the Unity of Allah (Allahu ahad). Quran has a nice mode of teaching for those who grasp how it teaches and what actually is the phenomenon called Allah. Allah is not a personal address for GOD but a collective unity whereas 'Rabb' (Platform, Sustainer) is the actual personal address which can be discovered if one notices that Allah is NEVER used with 'ya' (personal address prefix) and used in plural (because it is a collective unity) while 'Rabb' is multiple times used with the 'ya', e.g. "ya Rabb" and counted singular.
Allah/Elah literary means a person who is a particular way as a way of an image. It, Allah , morphologically means "Be As It" reflecting prophet Moses encounter with GOD who told its the nature "I am who am I". Allah/Elah is a third person version of that argument with the final actually a third person suffix and the Arabic root Alif-Lam-Lam, the same as the AL article (prefix) uses. So it is "is as it" literally for Elah, three letters Alif Lam + ha .
That non-separate nature of GOD has been knowledge for millennia, but Pagan sectarianism has always twisted that information.
Salaam
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Peace free minds
I read layths paper on "which Quran", excellent scholarly work, thank you layth
Using only the Hafs & Warsh Quran prints
Are there any other verses between the 2, where actual full words are missing/added
Layths example of Surah 5724 were in Hafs in reads "Allaha HUWA alghaniyu"
In the Warsh the "HUWA" is not there
Please post any other verses were actual WORDS are missing/added, like the "HUWA" example layth pointed to
Peace, thank you free minds members
Peace, sometimes it's best to parse exact same phrase for consistency...
2264 for him what in the heavens and what in the earth and surely the god surely he the ample the praiseworthy
3126 to god what in the heavens and the earth surely the god he the ample the praiseworthy
3515 O you the humankind are you the poor to the god and the god he the ample the praiseworthy
5724 the ones stingy and they directing the humankind in the stinginess and from/whom turns away so surely the god he the ample the praiseworthy
606 indeed be for you among them an example best it to from/whom be hopeful the god and the day the last and from/whom turns away so surely the god he the ample the praiseworthy
Likewise it's clearly written in one of the oldest manuscripts MA VI 165
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607061.msg359818#msg359818
http//oi59.tinypic.com/2lk88sn.jpg
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Peace of The Lord Jesus Christ be upon you all
I was a former quranist, you can see some of my previous posts which I pray you'll disregard now, as I and the entire heavens are under the feet of Jesus Christ, and I retract all the defence of the Quran my hands put forward. I had no idea what Christians believed until I started studying, I pray you all will, at least learn the religion of Christianity properly, with a clean heart & mind, no pre-conceived notions.
This Hafs & Warsh issue is 1 of my top 10 reasons why I left Islam
From a Sunni perspective, they accept both transmissions as "SAHIH", Quran verses and Hadith are both graded in the Sunni religion, based on riwayah, isnad etc...
From the Quraniyoon perspective this issue of the Quran being perfectly preserved by Allah does not work, even for Sunnis by default, it's not true either, most Muslims don't even know this problem exists.
I can say that being a former quranist, I believe that you guys (hadith rejectors) are much more knowledgeable then your average Muslim, but it doesn't work.
The fact is, basically the grand mufti of Saudi, in charge of the king fahd Quran complex in medina was able to over power Allah, and allow 2 variants of the Quran to be printed by his will.
The moment you see 2 variants, in print, being memorised and recited and accepted, with no way to know truly what exactly was allegedly sent down, the whole concept is destroyed
Allah does not exist, Saudi mufti proved to be more powerful then him
Jesus Christ is King of Kings, Lord of Lords
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You do not think there are scribe errors and deliberate changes in the Biblical Gospels? You surely are wholly.
Quran speaks of the same topic as the Biblical Gospels and complements the teachings in a wider scripture. Despite containing errors it transmits the message very clearly enough for a wise man to learn from it. The interpreters and scribes chose to manipulate Quran in another manner through the interpretation primarily instead of changing the letters perhaps because the Quran was already memorized by a lot of talented people and there were multiple Qurans in circulation. There are more original transcripts out there and I say that Kufic script is the most accurate and I have read two pages from a Quran which is from the 8th century in Esfahan, Iran, and it lacks most diacritical marks. Very old Qurans seem all to lack those marks. Apart from this I visited an ancient mausoleum with gravestones carrying inscriptions from the same time which were Arabic quotes from Quran and they all lack diacritics. This was in a very remote part of Iran, southwest of Yazd with few archeological investigations carried out.
The problem is that Quran was hijacked some time upon history and corrupted by interpreters and scribes into transmitting what it does not say while the original Arabic script says something else without having been altered. The interpreters did use a doctrine of their own to find innocent victims of Arabic words which they dogmatically chose to mean something that they do not really mean. It does not mean that Quran is not a divinely inspired scripture because it is. The language of Quran had likely fallen into oblivion or interpreted by a foreign nations (Persians perhaps?) because the scribes hardly knew what it said because sentences are cut in awkward places and often cut in the middle of a clause which no one would do even if they segment a sentence.
The Biblical Gospels have also fallen victim to malicious interpreters since the Christian clergy impose another message than they transmit if you wholeheartedly read and study it.
Allah exists if you are in Allah otherwise the Platform (Rabb) is in the Unity (wahed) itself. Anyone with the right mind can exist in that Unity and Jesus was not exclusively there. He said himself anyone is welcome and he gave guidance on how. In the Biblical Gospels Moses can be seen as in the Unity when the disciples foolishly offer him a tent.
You cannot say Jesus is the King since Jesus acknowledged the Lord (Rabb) is everyone's Master. He himself clarifies in the same text the true account. But he said he is IN the Father which is very different and "on the right side".
Salaam
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Peace.
I was a former quranist, you can see some of my previous posts which I pray you'll disregard now, as I and the entire heavens are under the feet of Jesus Christ, and I retract all the defence of the Quran my hands put forward. I had no idea what Christians believed until I started studying, I pray you all will, at least learn the religion of Christianity properly, with a clean heart & mind, no pre-conceived notions.
May I know, what is your path before you become 'quranist'?
Do you follow the Bible now?
This Hafs & Warsh issue is 1 of my top 10 reasons why I left Islam
And the other 9 reasons are?
Perhaps you could tell us about the other reasons.
From a Sunni perspective, they accept both transmissions as "SAHIH", Quran verses and Hadith are both graded in the Sunni religion, based on riwayah, isnad etc...
I still not go deep into this Hafs & Warsh issue, but it seems your posts (and your deviation) made me interested to know more about it.
The fact is, basically the grand mufti of Saudi, in charge of the king fahd Quran complex in medina was able to over power Allah, and allow 2 variants of the Quran to be printed by his will.
Red Still not verify this info myself. However, if it happened, then (in my opinion) it means Allah lets it happened, most likely as part of our tests.
The moment you see 2 variants, in print, being memorised and recited and accepted,
Have you see and verify all of those things by yourself?
Or maybe you know about that by reading some articles?
with no way to know truly what exactly was allegedly sent down, the whole concept is destroyed
If it is true that both versions exist and spread, and if we have faith that the authenticity of the Qur'an is guarded by Allah, then logically, one of the two versions is false, and the question is, which one is the original version?
Maybe it's possible that... in this world, there are fake versions of "the Qur'an", alongside the original version.
My family have some Qur'an printings, I checked five, and I think they are Hafs version.
Allah does not exist,
How you could come to that conclusion??
That's strange to say that, because to my knowledge, the Christians also believe that Allah exists.
Saudi mufti proved to be more powerful then him
Of course not.
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Peace of The Lord Jesus Christ on you javalatte
Your responses made me pleased, thank you
I was a practising, praying, fasting etc... Sunni salafi Muslim, upon Quran and Sunnah, I'll get a list of other reasons I left Islam done, especially for you later, if Jesus Christ wills.
If allah let 2 variants, to be printed, recited, memorised, accepted by billions of Muslims around the world, what was the point of him saying he'll protect it, surah 159? Also note, nowhere in that verse does he say he'll protect the "quran", the word is "dhikr". Sunnis accept this verse to be protection of the quran, sunnah, and all the rituals and practises they do today.
I have seen the 2 variants and verified it. I owned a Hafs and I purchased the physical, hard copy of the Warsh, king fahd quran complex print. You can buy the Warsh from amazon for ?11, I'll send you the link if you like, its from a sunni book shop called daral taqwa. Praise be to Jesus Christ, I was also able to get ahold of a "hybrid" version as we'll, from Istanbul, layth was true when he mentioned this as well in his article! So there are 3 being printed, only 2 from medina. Here's an online link you can see the Warsh, even though I saw this, I still wanted the hard copy, so there was no doubt in mind. https//archive.org/details/HOLY-quran--BOOK--pdf--musshaf-warsh-MP3QURAN.NET
It's a huge mess, the muqatta'at in Hafs are treated as individual ayahs, in the Warsh they form part of an ayah. I asked sheikh assim al hakeem about this, including missing words between the 2, he told me "it is of no importance whether the muqatta'at are separate ayahs or parts of an ayah!" He also told me when I presented the missing "HUWA" in Warsh, in surah 5724, he said "BOTH ARE SAHIH" like a hadith!
I don't know what allah is, allah of the quran, is the same as shiva, krishna, buddha etc... Names of false gods people have named. Arab Christians do sometimes say allah, but understand they don't mean allah of the Quran, allah is simply al ilah "the god", in arabic, it's only a language issue, we do not worship the same god, nor do we acknowledge him.
There is only ONE GOD and his eternal proper name for ever is YAHWEH, muhammad never preached in the name of this God, neither is he mentioned in the Quran. Understandably muhammad didn't know this name, because by this time in history, the Jews avoided using this divine name in fear, instead they would say "Adonai" "rabb" in Arabic meaning lord or they would say "Hashem" "bismi" in Arabic, meaning the name, so you can see how muhammad was exposed here, praise be to Jesus Christ. If he was getting "divine" revelations he would have known "YAHWEH", he went on oral tradition, whatever he heard around him, and in his own head.
Think about it, all the prophets and messengers preached in the name of "YAHWEH", muhammad comes along, claiming he's a prophet of the same God, but didn't even know his name, you can see clearly this man was exposed.
I believe in only the bible, please don't listen to muslims or any one else about the christian belief, if you want to know more about Christianity please message me.
allah of the Quran thought we believed in 3 separate gods, allah, Mary and Jesus!
allah had no idea what Christians believe, he had no idea about the trinity, he thought we believed allah has sex with Mary, and they had an offspring Jesus.God forgive me for such blasphemy! My sister in humanity, I beg you in the name of Jesus Christ, please watch these 2 playlists, to see how ignorant the author of the Quran was about Jesus, the Christian doctrine and the blessed trinity
https//youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCE5248DBA28C1316
https//m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBC61599C4D704677
Jesus Christ is King of Kings, Lord of Lords! Amen!
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peace Nonmushrik,
Your lack of response to Nun's post smacks of intellectual dishonesty or perhaps emotional reasoning (based on your zealous praising of Jesus).
You said
It's a huge mess, the muqatta'at in Hafs are treated as individual ayahs, in the Warsh they form part of an ayah.
If that is your example of "huge mess" then this alleged objection is tantamount to saying this post of mine, if it were not separated by line spaces, would be a "huge mess". I consider this nonsensical, and therefore I cannot take your objection seriously.
Example of alleged "huge mess"
peace Nonmushrik,
Your lack of response to Nun's post smacks of intellectual dishonesty or perhaps emotional reasoning (based on your zealous praising of Jesus).
You saidIt's a huge mess, the muqatta'at in Hafs are treated as individual ayahs, in the Warsh they form part of an ayah.
If that is your example of "huge mess" then this alleged objection is tantamount to saying this post of mine, if it were not separated by line spaces, would be a "huge mess". I consider this nonsensical, and therefore I cannot take your objection seriously.
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Peace wakas, if you've read layths paper properly, you'll see the mass chaos between the 2 variants, unless you haven't, then i would assume, you don't really care about the differences, and you keep telling yourself "the quran is perfectly preserved, there's only 1 Quran"
That illustration I gave of the muqatta'at was only one example, if you really think about it, it really is messy.
The point was that it creates doubt in the scripture and how/what exactly was revealed, what order, how to understand it etc... So you do not know for sure whether allahs intention was to reveal "Alif lam meem" as an independent ayah, or was allahs intention to reveal "Alif lam meem" as part of an ayah.
So, here's a question to you, because your Muslim, and I am eager to see your reply.
Q. What's the first ayah of surah baqarah?
Here's another question
Q. What's the first ayah of surah maida?
Seems a very simple question, like, what's the first letter of the alphabet? What's the first day of the week? No one would answer A & B and Monday and Tuesday, Sunnis of course will because it's all SAHIH!
Surah 5 ayah 1 in Hafs reads "allaha yahkumu ma yuridu"
In the Warsh you know wakas very we'll, that "allaha yahkumu ma yuridu" is in the 2nd ayah, giving a different law property, which even layth agreed.
1 more question,
Q. What's the 1st ayah of surah fathia?
I didn't bother replying to noon, because it's mere conjecture, he's having to decide himself what the Quran means, and put his own mind into it, because he can't accept that maybe the quran is false. I'm not attacking you noon, it's only because wakas bought you up.
if allah promised to protect the quran, how exactly? As a kafir I just have to sit back and see how that "promise" panned out. It didn't, so it false.
Imagine I say, "I'm a prophet, go down the road, you'll see a BIG sign saying NONMUSHRIK is a prophet"
You get there, there's no sign saying anything, hence I'm a false prophet, end of.
Peace.
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Peace Nonmushrik.
While you are right in pointing the various differences in various "Mushafs", We know now why and when that happened.
We also have a verifier thanks to GOD s preserved original tablet. We know which "Mushaf" is the original!
I suppose the question should be what is and where is the original copy of the Qoran?
Here is an example of an error of printing/writing
http//submission.org/verify_examples_of_errors_in_printings_of_Quran.htmlWho are we to believe ? Can we really find out what really happened?
Here is a version
http//submission.org/verify_writing_of_Quran_and_the_timing_of_the_mathematical_miracle.htmlKeep researching, do not be hasty in your choice,apply { 1736}
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
if allah promised to protect the quran, how exactly? As a kafir I just have to sit back and see how that "promise" panned out. It didn't, so it false.
Man whatever happened to that glorious christian achievement of humility , modesty and so on.
There is another answet to the conundrum you put up, and it is that you are blind.
So why are you here? You get kicks out of slandering the Qur'an and the Prophets or do you hope to save us?
If it is the first, you are dirtying yourself and nothing else. If it is the latter, the way you go about it is anything but commendable. You should raise the good points of whatever you are selling, and do not lower yourself to blackening others, such as the Prophet and the muslims treating us like we are idiots.
Your Lord Jesus has certainly not made out of you an example one would like to follow.
Salaam
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peace Nonmushrik,
Rather than jumping to other points, let us begin with your faulty premise. You have said for example "allah promised to protect the quran" but that is not what is stated in Quran.
Perhaps you should first begin by accurately stating the claim of Quran with regard to preservation, THEN cite your STRONGEST several examples that invalidate this claim AND state how they contradict/disprove the claim.
It's a really simple request.
I have studied this topic actually and the so-called discrepancies cited are negligible with regard to the message. And that is not even taking into account whether a systematic approach can clear up these so-called discrepancies, such as the cross-reference method Nun demonstrated. Layth's article does not cover that aspect, and to my knowledge this has never been done.
