Two lives and two deaths (for some) and non-eternal Hell.
-
Peace all,
4011 They will say, 'Our Lord, you have put us to death twice, and You gave us two lives; now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out?'
Qaloo rabbana amattana ithnatayni waahyaytana ithnatayni faiAAtarafna bithunoobina fahal ila khuroojin min sabeelin
In this verse does it mean that the two deaths are completed when these things are said - or can it mean that these people now know that they will have two deaths and have been given two lives; the second death yet to come?
The reason I ask is to do with the nature of hell being non-eternal.
I am thinking that based on 4456 that the first death is the death at the end of our lives on earth followed by a second eternal life for believers. So they only ever die once.
However the disbelievers die at the end of their lives on earth are returned to life; thus two lives, but then are put in hell until hell is annihilated. The disbelievers therefore die twice and are annihilated.
I am thinking that perhaps 4011 may refer to the foreknowledge of the second death to come for the disbelievers - and thus their question regarding is their any way out of the predicament of staying in hell and dying twice.
I know that Rashad explained it in terms of the feud in heaven being the first life etc; but I cannot pursue that which I have no knowledge of. It does not make sense to me that a non-physical being "dies" ie. for the first death to occur it would mean that a physical body was put to death before coming to earth.
Now this would mean for disbelievers three lives. One at the feud time. The second on earth, and then after dying on earth they would live once again - so this would be three lives - not two.
Here are some schematics -
My thoughts.
Believers ---> Life 1 on Earth \ Death 1 \ Life 2 eternal in the Garden
Disbelievers ---> Life 1 on Earth \ Death 1 \ Life 2 in Hell \ Death 2 when Hell is annihilated.
Rashad's interpretation.
Believers ---> Life 1 pre-Earth (Feud) \ Death 1 \ Life 2 on Earth ---> Eternal life in Garden without death.
Disbelievers ---> Life 1 pre-Earth (Feud) \ Death 1 \ Life 2 on Earth \ Death 2 \ Life 3 in Hell.
As you can see Rashad's idea creates a contradiction with 4011 as there are then three lives for disbelievers.
I hope this has been clear.
Regards.
-
Salaams Br.,
I think though other people might have different views!
Why haven't you included the day of judgment - or do you think it doesn't exist?
You said
Believers ---> Life 1 on Earth \ Death 1 \ Life 2 eternal in the Garden
Disbelievers ---> Life 1 on Earth \ Death 1 \ Life 2 in Hell \ Death 2
How about
Disbelievers ---> Life 1 on Earth \ Death 1 \ Life 2/judgment day \ Death 2 eternally in hell.
Salaams Br.
-
Salaams truth,latif,
i think sura 37 tells us more clearly of what the deaths are.
3.185,29.57,21.35.......... you(everyone) will taste death... ( future tense) ? so no one has tasted death before this life,have they latif,(I think).
4011 Two deaths for disbelievers,first death on earth second when their sentance is passed.
So death is simply the the annulment of freedom/freewill of an individual.
But as these things don't stop for believers in the second life when brought back to life.037.050
YUSUFALI Then they will turn to one another and question one another.
037.051
YUSUFALI One of them will start the talk and say "I had an intimate companion (on the earth),
037.052
YUSUFALI "Who used to say, 'what! art thou amongst those who bear witness to the Truth (of the Message)?
037.053
YUSUFALI "'When we die and become dust and bones, shall we indeed receive rewards and punishments?'"
037.054
YUSUFALI (A voice) said "Would ye like to look down?"
037.055
YUSUFALI He looked down and saw him in the midst of the Fire.
037.056
YUSUFALI He said "By Allah! thou wast little short of bringing me to perdition!
037.057
YUSUFALI "Had it not been for the Grace of my Lord, I should certainly have been among those brought (there)!
037.058
YUSUFALI "Is it (the case) that we shall not die,
037.059
YUSUFALI "Except our first death, and that we shall not be punished?"Second death is for the disbelievers when they are sent to the fire I think- as they lose everytype of gods mercy and privalage.
Just my view ?
God Bless.
-
Salam all,
The clue may be in this
228
How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.hussein
Peace Hussein,
Thank you for pointing to this verse. I've been thinking about it and it is obviously addressing disbelievers who are said to have two deaths, so it may be consistent in that sense if we interpret both deaths as being physical.
Rashad's idea of being dead before life on earth would be OK if there was no life before that first instance of being dead - if you follow me.
That's what 228 seems to indicate.
However as mz357 points to some verses that speak of a death to come 3185 would contradict the idea of believers having only one death if they had a real death prior to life on the earth.
Now the nature of being 'dead' prior to life on earth may not be the same sort of death as dying. It may indicate no existence/life beforehand.
On the other hand the 'dead' nature in 228 may be an allegorical dead state as in Jesus reviving the dead nation of Israel from the mud/depraved situation they were in.
As chapter 2 goes on to deal extensively with the descendants of Israel I think it would be fair to think of this first dead to life in verse 28 as being an awakening of the spirituality in one. If God awakens one then it asks how those people could disbelieve following that.
The following physical death + life is a reality for everyone and is in relation to the return to God. It would represent the first physical death of everyone and second life follows it. The disbelievers could then be dead again when hell is annihilated.
That's my present understanding, but I'd appreciate any other views.
Regards.
-
Salaams truth,
where does it say hell will be annihilated?
i think according to them/these ayats ,hell is eternal?
072.023
YUSUFALI "Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages for any that disobey Allah and His Messenger,- for them is Hell they shall dwell therein for ever."072.023
YUSUFALI "Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages for any that disobey Allah and His Messenger,- for them is Hell they shall dwell therein for ever."048.006
YUSUFALI And that He may punish the Hypocrites, men and women, and the Polytheists men and women, who imagine an evil opinion of Allah. On them is a round of Evil the Wrath of Allah is on them He has cursed them and got Hell ready for them and evil is it for a destination.041.028
YUSUFALI Such is the requital of the enemies of Allah,- the Fire therein will be for them the Eternal Home a (fit) requital, for that they were wont to reject Our Signs.