How would you translate 19:29/30/31
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Peace brother,
I don't see anything wrong if Eisa said that I am instructed for Salaati and Zakaati till I remain alive. In the same sura Ismael orders to his family about Salaati and Zakaati 1954, 1955].
Please note that SalaatA is different than SalaatI.
As per my understanding SalaatA is connecting with Allah only 243].
And SalaatI is connecting with others 629].May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Peace brother mmkhan
You did not get my point.
My contention is that AUSANI does not mean enjoined UPON me and BIS SALAT is not SALAT but WITH/BY salat.
Jesus cannot say "Allah has ENJOINED me WITH Salat and Zakah as long I remain alive. This is grammatically wrong sentence.
ENJOIN Verb (transitive) to order (someone) to do (something) urge strongly, command
How could Allah enjoin/command Jesus WITH Salat and Zakah?
Grammatically correct sentence would be " Allah has enjoined/commanded me to establish the Salat and give Zakah till I remain alive".
What would be the final message of the verse if the correct meaning of AUSANI and BIS SALAT are placed in the verse.
Thanks
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hafez kazi,
There is no "establish" salat in the passage since aqum is missing even taking it means establish which it does not.
If Jesus was bestowed with salat autonomously (without reflection) then obviously 'qum' is not required because he has salat in real time.
That is also a passage which shows how lame the "Contact Prayer" interpretation is.
Salaam
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Peace MoF
Thanks for your reply which proves beyond doubt that salat is not a ritual salat but something else. I am surprised that no defender of salat = ritual salat has responded to this query and the reason is that they do not have any answer for AUSANI and BIS SALAT in the verse. They must have been scratching their heads to find out how Allah has ENJOINED Jesus WITH prayer and charity till he remains alive. There is no way that SALAT in the above verse is RITUAL PRAYER and Allah will never ENJOIN Jesus (WITH) PRAYER and CHARITY.
Salat as a ritual salat has survived only because of the distorted translation of the salat verses by the traditional translators.
Thanks
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Glad you can see it, hafez kazi.
I accept interpretations which say "in contact with" by people, but I reject that it is timed in any way. I am working heavily on the refutation of salat's timing in an academically acceptable way even if the pretenders did well in hiding the true account and beguile people into thinking it is timed. Following/upholding assalateh is a constant activity. It is lame if GOD said to Moses "I am with you as long as you uphold salat (but it does not matter whatever else you do)" if it refers to a timed salat. As long as you 'follow guidance' is more viable in my view.
If you ask me I go with the lexical definitions "follow closely" and "remain attached". To be able to follow someone or something you need what? GUIDANCE of course, a leader or beacon. Then you can follow. If you take the lead you are musalla because they follow you (your direction).
Please brother. Refer to the lexical definition "blessing" and reflect on why it is mentioned and refer to the Quranic passage which is translated "Allah and the angels send blessings on the prophet". What do you really think the prophet receives? Guidance of course, so he can follow and his followers follow him!
Salaam
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Peace MoF
Once we are convinced that the Salat is not the present ritual salat then there is nothing wrong in trying with new meaning/s which fits in the context and the verse gives us a logical message.
Salat = guidance in the case of Moses and the Prophet is perfect but not in all salat verses.
With regards to other salat verses it does not fit it in the context eg
And when you travel throughout the land/ through the earth/ go forth in the land/ are journeying in the earth, there is no blame upon you if you shorten FROM the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve MAY persecute / attack / disrupt / molest /distress you . Indeed, the disbelievers are ever to you a clear enemy. (4 101)
It is very difficult to understand the SHORTENING FROM THE SALAT (RITUAL PRAYER/GUIDANCE)
WHAT and HOW to shorten FROM the SALAT?
Hair or dress can be SHORTENED but how it is possible to shorten FROM the hair or dress. Muslims have overlooked the MIN in the verse.
No translator translated the above verse correctly. Everybody omitted MIN from their translation.
Why they did this, because they knew only one meaning of the word SALAT and that is RITUAL PRAYER.
As I already mentioned that SALAT = RITUAL PRAYER survived only because of the faulty/distorted translation of the Salat verses.
Thanks
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Salaam hafez kazi,
It usually does not fit because the traditional translation is weak as it is I have discovered during my research. As you probably understand, 4100-102 were in interpretation designed to make the reader get the feeling salat is done right in the middle of a warfare situation compulsively.
The word does not exactly translate as FROM, but it is an attribute reference which is best translated into English as 'of' in most cases, i.e. "of guidance" as in "taken from part of attribute" which does alter the meaning and translation from what you suggested. You may refer to ancient lexicons for the root (Meem-Nun-Nun) where you shall see in action in examples. I judge that FROM is not a proper understanding of as the word suggests taken of (part) of a value as a derivation. Same as 25 when it says "(the) gift/blessing of their Rabb" when you gain an attribute from something (a source) is used. In 4101 it is as you say though and from is better used grammatically, but as I see it the context speaks of a person who walks around teaching about GOD.
refers to abstention or "fall short" from (offering) guidance, if you think the deluded will TRY you. I interpret it in 4102 that "if you still do it then... bla bla". The weapons are not physical but refers to arguments which is a form of verbal weapons. The person is suggested in 4102 that if he loses his mind it is better to bail out. It is not unknown that it is hard to speak guidance with sectarian-minded and obviously they will try to find something against you and also provoke your anger if they notice you have the upper hand as a kind of psychological terror. The sujud in 4102 is that they "behave/comply". Deluded will often make you feel like you bounce a ball against a wall and nothing intelligent returns to you so it will be brickwall
only occurs 11 times in Quran and often at suspiciously translated passages. Check 7202 and you can see the brothers do not cease them from error and it sounds stupid with shorten from error. But cease from error you can do. Probably the same meaning is supposed to be deciphered from 4101. Considered the context which most likely starts in 494 with , it is likely that all passages from it are supposed to be read as one segment. 499 and 4100 also needs reinterpretation to understand 4101 as it belongs to the sentence through conjunctions. Translators often ignore the initial 'wa' on 4100.
You see how the context is abused to rally for war.
To behave while discussing guidance with people is important since one has to make a calm and controlled impression.
has other meanings than used in the interpretation of the sectarians and it may be taken as an "inclination" or "forwards leaning". Personally I doubt the sin interpretation and there are other words for it in Arabic better suitable. The word is only in highly suspicious passages also requiring reinterpretation in my opinion. The same word recurs in 4102 with a likely meaning of inclination "inclined aleikum". I would interpret the first part as
"When you go (preach/expose/put) forth in the land then *consider on/for you (to) incline (on) refraining/confining/restricting of/from guidance if you think those who are deluded will TRY you. The deluded ones are to you a real problem/hurdle... and *2"
In the context it does not mean that the person should be unrighteous and ignore following guidance but from the attempts at conveying it if it becomes too hard due to annoying opponent sectarian clerics and scholars. used may also mean try or reply or answer. Check a lexicon so you see I do not ramble. It is likely that the deluded challenge his guidance (the person in the context). In case they challenge you then you can choose to refrain from indulging in discussion if you think they will try you as in causing you to make a slip of tongue.
- This is what I get out of in the context.
*2 This clause from "An alkafariin..." most likely continues as a sentence into 4102 after a conjunction (wa). It also shows versing is weak as the scribes cut sentences in unsuitable places. The verse system is a later invention and such as the Kufic script lacks verse numbering. Translators often insert "for" despite not present in the Arabic. here refers to "It is the...". has two possible interpretations and that is if (condition it) or simply "it". The morphological understanding is "Be Integrity" (the situation). Many translators insert "indeed" despite it is slightly unsuitable. It is an emphatic It IS the.
A prophet or cleric does not go forth in warfare in the land but is a peaceful man. The context is a blatant lie in the traditional translation. This person avoids conflict to retain his peace and if challenged it is still important for him to have a balance of peace. That is the message of this context. That the traditional interpreters have made this into a warfare prayer is a mockery of the message in my opinion.
In 861 translators choose to opt for incline if you check. The word can impossibly change meaning this much. I take it as leaning and it is also an Arabic word for wings or arm because they are also leaning. Sin/blame is likely a falsehood. To expose it one has to reinterpret a couple of dozen passages involving the word and what they really say. Morphologically refers to something outer/external/visible/body or outer layer of something and as useful/good/support. From there the support/leaning comes from. It is likely in 4101 that it refers to being a support to people in the lands as a person in the way of GOD is supposed to help other people. I argue Quran is a guide for clerics or whatever term to use for a person who likes to devoutly work on this. Quran instructs on how to answer in situations against people who challenge you and it sounds silly that the prophet writing wrote all those qul passages as only an instruction to himself to preach.
in the beginning of the sentence has lots of definitions including usage in the infamous wife beating of 434. Personally I interpret daad-ra-ba as "put forth/expose to" as in make known to. The interpreters often opt for the most violent choice possible for some reason. It seems daad-ra-ba refers to exposure/revelation of something (an ability or deed perhaps). Check its usage in 494 where it probably refers to putting forth/progress/excel on the path of Allah. In 850 their faces and backs are exposed although I think face is metaphorical for intention, i.e. their minds are exposed.
Much indicates that you "make something highlighted" with daad-ra-ba.
Brother, you see the interpreters were not after a proper interpretation but they were after confirming a doctrine. The Pagan prostration was a religious way before gods and prior to revelation of Quran the sects had it in their doctrine so obviously they needed to manipulate also this text to include it or they would look foolish before the commoner.
Finding the right interpretation of kafar is hard, but on ONE single line in Lane's Lexicon it is exposed. Kafar refers to having a veil around your mind so that you are like inside a box. It blocks empathy, rationality and all traits gained by the Holy Spirit of Allah and causes the person to be victim of worldliness as that they can only utilize their animalistic body's functionality in reflection. They simply lack spirit and thus easily fall victim to instinctive behavior of the animal human which is "go with the flow", e.g. imitation. Immoral/mindless people are not usually evil as per it, but they are an animal in mind for their spirit is blocked/veiled (kafar), hence their actions which may be senseless to other more spiritually blessed. The 'IS' is a good example of kafaroon who are completely sealed off from the spirit. A trait of a kafar is the susceptibility to accept information with no own reflection for your instinctive mind glorifies someone for example the scholar's finesse and articulation.
Salaan
- This is what I get out of in the context.
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In fact translators often ignore the initial conjunction 'wa' on 4102 as well linking the previous clause to it. All three 4100, 4101, 4102 and 4103 share the same context but not the same sentence. There is a sentence beginning in 4101 and ending in 4102.
Personally if I was a scribe in charge of versification I would make the cut in 4101 as highlighted in the previous post. However, in truth I would never touch and alter the text to begin with.
Deluded are a problem to a messenger because they argue for a cause without knowing why in their little bubble and the tunnel-vision can surely prove an annoyance to that person. They go with the flow and they defend their sect in which they feel belonging. The result is that you can shower them with all sorts of signs and they still stubbornly defend their little delusion which seems likely from the view of the 99 sheep while one lonely sheep goes away in another direction.
Salaam
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Peace MoF
Thanks for your reply which proves beyond doubt that salat is not a ritual salat but something else. I am surprised that no defender of salat = ritual salat has responded to this query and the reason is that they do not have any answer for AUSANI and BIS SALAT in the verse. They must have been scratching their heads to find out how Allah has ENJOINED Jesus WITH prayer and charity till he remains alive. There is no way that SALAT in the above verse is RITUAL PRAYER and Allah will never ENJOIN Jesus (WITH) PRAYER and CHARITY.
Salat as a ritual salat has survived only because of the distorted translation of the salat verses by the traditional translators.
Thanks
Among Christians its commonly accepted that Jesus brought/was the mediator for a new convenant with the people of Israel. In this sense, Jesus is bestowed with the duty to realize the new convenant (including rules for prayer and charity). This is the main reason why Jews and Christians historically often disagreed. The Christians interprete this convenant as overruling the existing convenant the jewish people had with God. Christians also believe, Jesus' death/self-sacrifice was crucial in realizing this new convenant. This is why the quranic text explicitly states 'until I remain alive'.
Peace
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Peace rlz
thanks for the input
This is why the quranic text explicitly states 'until I remain alive'.
That was not the question. The question was the incorrect translation which makes no sense and which nobody corrected it.
My contention is that AUSANI does not mean enjoined UPON me and BIS SALAT is not SALAT but WITH/BY salat.
Jesus cannot say "Allah has ENJOINED me WITH Salat and Zakah as long I remain alive. This is grammatically wrong sentence.
ENJOIN Verb (transitive) to order (someone) to do (something) urge strongly, command
How could Allah enjoin/command Jesus WITH Salat and Zakah?
Grammatically correct sentence would be " Allah has enjoined/commanded me to establish the Salat and give Zakah till I remain alive".
What would be the final message of the verse if the correct meaning of AUSANI and BIS SALAT are placed in the verse.
Thanks
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"Allah has enjoined me the prayer and charity till I remain alive."
How could Allah enjoin/command Jesus WITH Salat and Zakah?
I answered this. This is the new convenant. It is not an instruction from God to Jesus to pray and give charity himself but to establish the new convenant which includes the system of prayer and charity for the people of Israel.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. 8 For he finds fault with them when he says "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 87?13
Peace
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Pece rlz
Thanks for the interest shown.
Again you are missing.
How could Allah enjoin/command Jesus WITH Salat and Zakah?
Yes Allah could not enjoin Jesus (BI S SALAT) WITH salat and zakat.
But the verse say so, which is grammatically incorrect
the meaning of BI S SALAT is (WITH/BY/FOR SALAT).
AUSANI BIS SALAT - enjoined me WITH the salat which is not possible.
I need a logical translation of the verse
Thanks
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Imagine, hypothetically, you receive from God instructions for prayer and charity. You are endorsed by God to establish these in the peoples hearts and minds...
Then what is grammatically incorrect in the verse when you say
"God enjoined me WITH the salat"
Take a more mundane example. I give you a book and I endorse you to return it to the library
"I enjoined you WITH the book"
I really fail to see a problem.
Peace
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Peace
ENJOINED (VERB) to order (someone) to do (something); urge strongly; command
The code enjoined members TO trade fairly
The doctor enjoined the patient TO walk daily
If your doctor enjoins you TO stop smoking, he is suggesting strongly that you quitIf it was a command to Jesus then he should have been commanded TO estasblish the salat and GIVE zakah
Jesus cannot be commanded WITH salat and ZAKAH
Don't say that he was commanded TO establish the prayer and give zakah, because this is not mentioned in the verse.
And ESTABLISH prayer and GIVE zakah, and whatever good you put forward for yourselves - you will find it with Allah. Indeed, Allah of what you do, is Seeing. (Al-Baqara 110)
And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as the display of the former times of ignorance. And ESTABLISH the prayer and GIVEzakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity , O people of the household, and to purify you with purification. (Al-Ahzaab 33)
If AUSANI is command/enjoin then what was the command to Jesus WITH salat and ZAKAH.
Thanks
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It seems you ignored my examples showing it's linguistically perfectly sound.
The code enjoined members TO trade fairly
=> The code enjoined members WITH fair trade
The doctor enjoined the patient TO walk daily
=> The doctor enjoined the patient WITH daily walks
If your doctor enjoins you TO stop smoking, he is suggesting strongly that you quit
=> The doctor enjoins you WITH a smoking ban.
What concerns ESTABLISH zakah and prayer. This is actively realizing them yourself. Again, God does not instruct Jesus to ESTABLISH prayer and zakah himself. God instructs him WITH the prayer.
In your example, the Messenger is neither asked to ESTABLISH the prayer. The followers of the messenger are instructed to ESTABLISH. The messenger is enjoined WITH the prayer and zakat.
When Quran uses ESTABLISH in combination with prayer and zakat it refers to a duty you have to realize yourself. When Quran does not use ESTABLISH it speaks about the blueprint for the prayer and zakat.
When you are enjoined with something, it means the subject is WITH you, in your possession, under your supervision, in your control. This is illustrated by the fact that none of the prophets were told to pray or give charity given certain rules. They are not asked to establish. That message is for those following them. It seems that the messengers/prophets like Jesus knew how to pray and give charity from the heart. As such they served as an example. The prayer and zakat were in a way part of their identity, natural to them or God-given.
To make things easy enjoined with means almost the same as "joined with". It has a different meaning than "enjoined to". "Enjoined with" does not necessarily mean a command but expresses what one is "joined" with.
Jesus is enjoined with the prayer. The followers when they are enjoined to the prayer and obey the messenger/message they also become joined with the prayer. When you accepted prayer/charity, you are joined with it. Connected with it. In a larger perspective joined with God. It connects one with God.
Peace
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This is illustrated by the fact that none of the prophets were told to pray or give charity given certain rules. They are not asked to establish. That message is for those following them.
Verily thy Lord knows that thou stay up near two- thirds of the night, Or half thereof, or a third thereof, and also a party of those who are with thee. And Allah measures the night and the day. He knows that ye can compute it not, He hath relented toward you. Wherefore proclaim now of the Qur'an, so much as is easy. He knows that there will be among you some diseased, and others shall be travelling in the land seeking grace of Allah, and others shall be fighting in the way of Allah. Wherefore (O Prophet ) proclaim thereof so much as is easy; and establish the prayer and give Zakat and lend Unto Allah a goodly loan. Whatsoever good ye shall send on for your souls, ye shall find it with Allah, better and greater in reward. And ask forgiveness of Allah; verily Allah is Forgiving, Merciful 7320
(O Prophet) establish the prayer at the sun set until the darkness of the night and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed. 17 78
And establish (O Prophet) the prayer at two ends/sides of the day BUT in the nearness of the night. Indeed, good deeds do away with misdeeds. That is a reminder for those who remember. 11 114
Prophet Muhammad was explicitly commanded to establish the prayer and give zakah
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Lol hafeez. The parts between brackets are additions not part of the quranic text. Please, bring some real evidence.
Peace
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The prophet is hardly mentioned in the quranic text (you are misled by the injections in sectarian translations). Proving my point. The messenger already prayed the right way, gave charity the right way. Guided by God.
The entire message in Quran is a message for the followers of the message and the messenger. When the instructions are explicitly for the prophet, the prophet is explicitly mentioned. But there aren't many of those.
Peace
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(111141)
wa-aqimi
And establish CONJ ? prefixed conjunction wa (and)
V ? 2nd person masculine singular (form IV) imperative verb(111142)
l-alata
the prayer N ? accusative feminine noun(17781)
aqimi
Establish V ? 2nd person masculine singular (form IV) imperative verb(17782)
l-alata
the prayer, N ? accusative feminine noun -
Sure. But where does it mention "The prophet"? It doesn't say "O Prophet, establish". It says "Establish". So these are instructions for those following the message and following the messenger.
Peace