New article: What is the meaning of "al masjid al haram"?

runninglikezebras

peace rlz,

Please do not confuse your reasoning with sound reasoning. You seem to be implying a usage in a certain occurrence proves that is the meaning in every usage.

Those occurrences should at least be incorporated into your thesis instead of obscuring them. By itself it does not prove anything. But you don't even consider them.

I asked you a very simple question, and since you dodged the question, or if you think you answered, that means your citing of an occurrence warrants your conclusion, then I am more than happy to let readers decide for themselves.

Anyone claiming a physical direction during prayer for these verses 2142-150 knows it is built on speculation. The word salat is not even used.

Here is where salat is used AND a physical direction discussed

2177 Piety is not to turn your faces/considerations towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Book, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and upholds the salat, and who contributes towards betterment; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of adversity and hardship and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and these are the righteous.

Simplified

2177 Piety is not to turn your faces/considerations towards the east and the west, but piety is one who........................ upholds the salat...

Conjecture is no substitute for the truth, and Quran cannot be clearer than the above.

If you would have read me correctly I totally distinct salat from qibla. I think you may have missed that part.

About these verses you quote. See 1778/79

Salat by itself is no guarantee to gain praiseworthiness with God. But it's recommended. I see no argument in there that denies a qibla being Temple Mount.
It only puts those straight who think praying in a certain direction is enough. It doesnt mean anything by itself.

I agree with Mazhar your translation is a meaningless assembly of words. Your analysis of the famous wife-beating verses in Quran suffer from a similar phenomenon.

Peace

runninglikezebras

Interesting fact about the siege of Jerusalem (637) the city was conquered without shedding blood. Again the historical record matches the Quran with astonishing precision.

Peace

Mazhar

In my opinion it is highly recommended to pray in the direction of Temple Mount but it is by no means dogmatic.

Does any Jew and Christian consider the direction of Temple Mount as http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00028.%20Qabal%20Qaaf%20Ba%20Laam%20Before%20confront/8.gif

runninglikezebras

Christians don't. Jews do. I covered this already in an earlier message in this thread. See Mizrah.

Peace

Wakas

It might give you some clue to rethink what have you so far understood about this phrase.

Please state exactly how my rendering of the phrase is not possible according to the Arabic. Be specific.

If you cannot provide the above, I will assume you concede it is theoretically possible.

To my knowledge, my rendering is perfectly possible, and those knowledgeable of Arabic whom I have spoken with regarding this have never said to the contrary.

Mazhar

Please state exactly how my rendering of the phrase is not possible according to the Arabic. Be specific.

If you cannot provide the above, I will assume you concede it is theoretically possible.

To my knowledge, my rendering is perfectly possible, and those knowledgeable of Arabic whom I have spoken with regarding this have never said to the contrary.

Dear, even your rendering in English is not cogent.

Time is a semantic field in all the languages of the world. Kindly see as to what words collocate with time in English language.

Similarly place is a semantic field in languages. See what words and prepositions co-occur with words refering to space-location.

Perhaps this might make you feel what illogical assertions you have all along been making, brother.

runninglikezebras

Rls,

You should be careful using sectarian references (such as the Tanakh) to prove your point. It is not like the Judah doctrine was not full of Pagan corruption. Compare older narratives in the Bible and you see they are never seen observe some timed ritual. Jesus does not observe any prayer ritual in the New Testament.

Daniel has a very questionable origin and Daniel is not mentioned about in Quran.

I'm referring to that verse for two reasons

It's the same aramaic donor word imported into hebrew
It's one of the verses used as a foundation for the Mizrah in Judaism

The other verse that is at the origin of Mizrah is the prayer of Solomon

When your people go to war against their enemies, wherever you send them, and when they pray to you toward this city you have chosen and the temple I have built for your Name - II Chronicles 634

"then hear from heaven their prayer and their plea, and uphold their cause." - II Chronicles 635

"When your people Israel have been defeated by an enemy because they have sinned against you, and when they turn back to you and give praise to your name, praying and making supplication to you in this temple," - 1 Kings 833

then hear from heaven and forgive the sin of your people Israel and bring them back to the land you gave to their ancestors." - 1 Kings 834

"When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain because your people have sinned against you, and when they pray toward this place and give praise to your name and turn from their sin because you have afflicted them," - 1 Kings 835

Masjid Al-Haram is Temple Mount, just look at the many similarities between the Jewish pilgrimage and Hajj. Masjid Al-Haram was controlled by enemies Persians, Byzantines during Muhammads time. He was obliged to go to war and reclaim it, become Gods appointed guardian of Temple Mount. To this day Temple Mount is still under the authority of muslims, the appointed guardians as mentioned in Quran.

Peace

Mazhar

"The invoilable time of sujud"

Why not you reflect for a second to find above words non-cogent in English language. English language does not recognize "time of sujud". Similarly English language does not recognize "The inviiolable time". It is making mockery of English language, and nothing else.

runninglikezebras

There is an invoilable place though. I know I keep repeating myself but this invoilable place was so clearly understood in those days Jerusalem was captured without shedding one drop of blood. The muslim force decided to wait till byzantine supplies were out. Why would they do that if not commanded by Quran?

Peace

noble

If the Kingdoms of David and Solomon were in fact in Yemen and not the ME, then Sana'a might be in fact where Jerusalem stood.

There was competition for Ka'aba Pilgrimage between Sana'a and Makkah before.

cf. Info from research done by Brother Pazuzu in his threads and 4 essays so far.

links on twitter here

https//twitter.com/inabster/status/581554294073196544

Wakas

peace all,

Ayman said
"At this stage, I would venture to say that NONE of the examples that you gave here inherently imply time by themselves"
and
"So in conclusion, the word ?masjid? doesn?t imply time at all but like other words of this form imply a whole system/institution."

I happened to come across another of the same form today

http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wqt#(21896)

From
http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/science/timing.htm

They ask you regarding the crescent moons, Say "They are timings for the people as well as for the debate." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of the God that you may succeed.

According to the corrected translation, crescent moons in general (both the thinning crescent and the widening crescent) can serve as timing devices.

Another verse that talks about timing/"myqat" is 7142 where Moussa is described as completing the "myqat"/timing. So "myqat"/"mawaqit" can signify timing/timings for completion of something.

As I said, the form maf3il (i.e. "masjid&quot can and does indicate time, and is nothing new in Arabic. Whether "masjid" means this in Quran is another question.

Mazhar

As I said, the form maf3il (i.e. "masjid&quot can and does indicate time, and is nothing new in Arabic.

Dear Wakas,

Can you find in the entire Arablic literature just one example where it is used as time adverb?

Please just read the difference between adverbs of time and place in English grammar which might help you get out of confusion about Masjid.

Wakas

Perfect example of hypocrisy by Mazhar
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601641.msg288191#msg288191

In the above link Mazhar openly admits it is the context which determines whether it is noun of time or noun of place, and he happens to think "masjid" is noun of place. But in the above post he seems to imply "masjid" as noun of time is impossible. He has actually implied this several times, but never explicitly stated it I don't think, probably because he knows it would be a lie.

The article discusses this issue in detail
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

Of course, it would be nice to research into the word "masjid" and see if it has been used as a noun of time, but this would take a significant amount of time/cost. I know for example it is use in some Traditional translations as "time of prayer", and they likely got this from earlier works, I don't know. But at the end of the day it does not matter to me if it has never been used as such, as The Quran is the criterion.

Mazhar

Perfect example of hypocrisy by Mazhar
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601641.msg288191#msg288191

In the above link Mazhar openly admits it is the context which determines whether it is noun of time or noun of place, and he happens to think "masjid" is noun of place. But in the above post he seems to imply "masjid" as noun of time is impossible. He has actually implied this several times, but never explicitly stated it I don't think, probably because he knows it would be a lie.

The article discusses this issue in detail
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

Of course, it would be nice to research into the word "masjid" and see if it has been used as a noun of time, but this would take a significant amount of time/cost. I know for example it is use in some Traditional translations as "time of prayer", and they likely got this from earlier works, I don't know. But at the end of the day it does not matter to me if it has never been used as such, as The Quran is the criterion.

Dear Wakas,

Can you find in the entire Arablic literature just one example where it is used as time adverb?

Please just read the difference between adverbs of time and place in English grammar which might help you get out of confusion about Masjid.

Except reading mindlessly; both statements are trying to tell you, brother Waqas, the same thing. Verbs and other words that collocate with Time Adverb and Locative Adverb are always different.

In the text a word can only be either Time Adverb or Locative Adverb. Just to facilitate you to resolve your confusions, I recommend you to atleast read English grammar.

nimnimak_11

Peace Wakas

Thank you for the article.
I might be wrong but I think there needs to be a correction in your article here
However, that does mean the form "masjid" cannot be a 'noun of place', it theoretically can, as the grammarians also list other exceptions to their rule which are used in AQ and they do seem to indicate time/place (and perhaps concept).

I think you intended to say However, that does not mean the form "masjid" cannot be a 'noun of place', it theoretically can...

Peace

Wakas

peace n11,

Thanks for the correction. The article has been updated.

Mazhar

Peace Wakas

Thank you for the article.
I might be wrong but I think there needs to be a correction in your article here
I think you intended to say However, that does not mean the form "masjid" cannot be a 'noun of place', it theoretically can...

Peace

It is only Locative Noun.

Acts have these elements (1) Why, (2) When, (3) Where, (4) How, and (5) What for.

A word can have only one sense in a text.

truthseeker11

Salaam Wakas,

In my view, 'the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgement' (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months) did not perform poorly in any occurrence

I have to admit your interpretation of "al-masjid al-haram" as "the inviolable time of SJD/acknowledgment" seems better than "the inviolable institution of obedience" due to reasons explained in your article. However, it seems to fare poorly in 2144 and 2150 in 2 different ways as far as "wherever that you are" is concerned.

I will quote your translation of these 2 verses for other's benefit first

2144 Indeed, We see thy face/consideration/purpose shifting/moving fee/in the sky/heaven; so We will surely turn thee (onto/to) a qiblah/focal-point that will please thee so turn thy face/purpose/consideration in the direction (of) al maSJD al haram and wherever that you are so turn your faces/purposes/considerations in its direction and indeed those who have been given the writ/decree know that it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what they do.

2150 And from wherever thou start/come forth so turn thy face/purpose/consideration in the direction (of) al masjid al haram and wherever that you are so turn your faces/purposes/considerations in its direction so that not will be for the people against you debate, except those who wronged among them. So do not fear them, but fear Me and that I may complete My favour upon you and so that you may be guided.

Following are 2 different ways your interpretation of "al-masjid al-haram" does not fit in those 2 verses

One should be able to turn one's face/purpose in the direction of "al-masjid al-haram" wherever one may be. This includes future possible colonization of the Moon or Venus or some other planet in a different planetary system where there is no "full-moon" to be able to determine the inviolable time of acknowledgment as per al-quran. How will someone, who has traveled from Earth to those places, turn his/her face/purpose in the direction of "the inviolable time of acknowledgment" from those places?
"Wherever that you are" also has an indirect implication of "almost all the time". The reason I am saying "almost" is because if you are completely stationary in one place for a period of time, then that period of time will not count. However, as soon you change your place from one spot to another, the instruction will immediately be applicable again. For example when you are sitting in your bedroom, you are somewhere, and the instruction is applicable to you to turn your face/purpose in the direction of "al-masjid al-haram" and as long as you stay still in one position in the bedroom, time is irrelevant; but as soon as you move to your living room for example, the instruction will be applicable once again. So it indirectly implies "almost at all times".

The problem is that "the inviolable time of acknowledgment" is limited only to a period of 4 inviolable full-moons and not "almost all the time". So how will you turn your face/purpose in the direction of the inviolable time of acknowledgement at times other than the time period of those 4 inviolable full-moons, wherever that you are?

You mentioned in your discussions that al-quran does talk about other actions that are limited to certain times such as "hajj" etc. but those occurrences are not preceded by "wherever that you are".

Kindly explain how your interpretation fits these 2 implications of "wherever that you are".

Salaam

Wakas

peace t11,

Thanks for the questions. I think it is a good sign that those are the only two objections you raised after reading the article ;D

The following answer of mine assumes that the instruction to turn one's face/purpose/attention to AMAH etc is applicable for all believers, including those today. In the article I mention this debatable issue

A question may arise, that once the results of such a change in "qiblah" are fulfilled (e.g. believers are brought together, completion of God's favour, and subsequently believers becoming victorious, completion of the messenger's mission and Quran revelation etc), are the believers still to turn their wajh/consideration/purpose in the direction of AMAH wherever they are? In other words, is this a command for all people at all times and all places? I think so, but this could, theoretically, be debated. Interestingly, in Traditional Islamic history itself, there is variance regarding the obligation of hajj and the importance it had/has at the time, and shortly after prophet Muhammad's death.

Re 1)
In your suggested example, if we negate the timing mechanism mentioned in Quran, e.g. "shahr", and are unwilling to use any other, then I do not see how any understanding would work. Not only for this but would impact any subject with a timing component.
However, if we are willing to accept a comparable timing system, then one can institute "al hajj" in one's locality, and everything that goes along with it, AMAH etc.

Re 2)

The problem is that "the inviolable time of acknowledgment" is limited only to a period of 4 inviolable full-moons and not "almost all the time". So how will you turn your face/purpose in the direction of the inviolable time of acknowledgement at times other than the time period of those 4 inviolable full-moons, wherever that you are?

Turning one's wajh/purpose/consideration towards 'the inviolable time of acknowledgement' (AMAH) does not necessarily have to occur within that time-period. For example, one can make preparations for such an event out with that time, e.g. rear their animals, work and save money for the trip, gather their trading goods etc etc.
In fact, I think that's how it likely would have been during the time of this particular revelation, i.e. these verses were revealed and then spread far and wide throughout the region so believers knew to prepare themselves, plan etc and converge upon this event-period when the time came.

runninglikezebras

What about the aramaic m-s-g-d that is attested for since the 5th century BC? Eg https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephantine_papyri

In aramaic it always clearly refers to a place of worship (statue, stele, shrine).

In Nabataean records from the first century BC msgd is also used. Usually taking the form of "this is the msgd made by N for (the designated) God."

Are we not ignoring the etymology of words?

Taking the etymology of the word into account when can only understand masjid as a place of worship.