Which is the Real Quran?
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Peace Sabo,
That is a great compilation that you have put together...
However, before being too quick in making your conclusion (Hafs + RK's deletion), I would like to point out some very obvious facts that you have missed
Each of the 4 words
ISM 19 occurances (+ 3 occurances of BSM)
Allah 2698
Alrahman 57
Alraheem 114
When speaking of the full Quran as its exists (and not parts that we pick and chose)
Allah = 2811
Al-Rahman = 169
Alraheem = 227None of the 3 names are divisible by 19 (even after RK's deletion).
Be patient and we may all find the answers together...
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Peace Layth,
I am aware, that these word frequencies as many other properties which are in this article are for the numbered verses of the Quran.
I didn't choose to split the quran into numbered and un-numbered verses. I also didn't choose to split it to initialed and un-initialed suras. This is alraedy given. Also the unnumbered verses are all identical without any exception. That's why involving them in such study and analysis is meaningless. its like i give you a list of the word day repeated 365 times and tell you hey my list is a miracle! lol
Imagine for example this sentence
I like to walk my dog tooif i repeat this sentence 19 times isn't a hard task at all. If in this chapter I say, the word dog is repeated 19 times is meaningless.
However, a constant expression like the basmala if nested with the initials (which are variable) is again a very hard phenomen to be duplicated.
The pointers to a great structures are too many to be simply disregarded. If you study this article in peace and take your time doing it, (like you did with the initials) you will God willing understand my point of view .
(understanding my point of view and accepting it are 2 different issues)For any verification of the presented data you can pm me.
Best regards,
sabo -
Peace Sabo,
I am aware, that these word frequencies as many other properties which are in this article are for the numbered verses of the Quran.
There is no such thing as 'numbered' & 'un-numbered' in the true form of the Quran.
The verses (including the Basmallah) were all seperated with a '*' or '/' since the earliest known recordings of God's book (see the Gold Quran or the Tashkent as an example).
I didn't choose to split the quran into numbered and un-numbered verses. I also didn't choose to split it to initialed and un-initialed suras. This is alraedy given. Also the unnumbered verses are all identical without any exception. That's why involving them in such study and analysis is meaningless. its like i give you a list of the word day repeated 365 times and tell you hey my list is a miracle!
The Basmalla marks the begining of a chapter/sura and was supposidly revealed with the original text (cannot be removed or deleted).
The Hadith followers were the ones who later did the seperation and made the '*' as numbers and decided to make the Basmalla stand alone...
The pointers to a great structures are too many to be simply disregarded. If you study this article in peace and take your time doing it, (like you did with the initials) you will God willing understand my point of view . (understanding my point of view and accepting it are 2 different issues)
I will look more into this...But please note that with the new information we have, we now can have different verse counts without the need to remove any of the text.
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Peace sabo,
Excellent compilation.
I've got a very large excel file with some other findings also. I think that it's important to classify all these findings as you have and God willing this work will continue to refine all these facts.
I read a short article by Muhammad Asadi today based on another article by a Gary Miller called the Amazing Koran which has some more of the 'is like' and 'is not like' type findings which are also quite incredible.
Whenever I go through these things my faith is firmed up immeasurably. It's like adding another pillar of iron to support my belief. Amazing stuff. Awesome.
May God always guide us to what is true.
Regards and keep up he great work.
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Peace Layth,
There is no such thing as 'numbered' & 'un-numbered' in the true form of the Quran.
The verses (including the Basmallah) were all seperated with a '*' or '/' since the earliest known recordings of God's book (see the Gold Quran or the Tashkent as an example).
Layth, there are no differences. if you choose to make a list and say
• item1
• item2
• item3
or
• item1
• item2
• item3
In the world of computer this is also very logical. A list item wether its marked with * or with x or whatever, its still doesn't change the fact "that an item is on the Nth position"
The Basmalla marks the begining of a chapter/sura and was supposidly revealed with the original text (cannot be removed or deleted).
The Hadith followers were the ones who later did the seperation and made the '*' as numbers and decided to make the Basmalla stand alone...
Changing an * to a 1 or a 2 is not contradicting at all. Because still a verse marked with a * at its beginning or end doesn't change the fact that this verse is on a Nth position. which means in other words, it doesn't change the fact that its having a number in the sequence. Please ponder!
I will look more into this...But please note that with the new information we have, we now can have different verse counts without the need to remove any of the text.
Layth, you are presenting 1 or 2 phenomens. I am presenting in a very short compact version much more. They are all nested together that you can drop one observation of them and many others will collapse.
Best regards,
sabo -
Peace Sabo,
Changing an * to a 1 or a 2 is not contradicting at all. Because still a verse marked with a * at its beginning or end doesn't change the fact that this verse is on a Nth position. which means in other words, it doesn't change the fact that its having a number in the sequence. Please ponder!
I don't think my point came through clearly...
I absolutly agree and understand that the "*" is a representation which can be changed to a number sequence 'n'.
What you are not noticing is that when we change all the "*" to numbers, we do not get the results that you are now saying 'prove' the Hafs count as being inspired...That is because the 'Basmalla' will become the '1' and all numbers will change by a factor of '1' from their present count.
Even Warsh would have to follow the same numbering sequence to fit the original text...
Please ponder also
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Peace Layth,
I agree, if we are looking for an analysis of a different version. As I stated earlier i am analysing a specific version as it exists.
this also answers the very important question WHY can not we bring a sura SIMILAR to the Quran?
it must have many properties combined together, to make this task impossible if we really believe in
224so it means that a curious mind will ask which properties makes it impossible?
For me personally, where i repeat again, its only my personal view, i see that there are many properties which are TOGETHER make a production of a sura like it an IMPOSSIBLE task.
these properties can be summerized as
- a linguistical consistency with ellegancy in expression + Qafya
- a mathematical configuration which can be alone an extremey difficult task to immitate
- a repetition property many narrations in the quran are repeated either in identical way (there are 95 identical verses i the quran btw )and verses which are similarly built but not 100% the same.. there are complete narrations which are narrated with more than one style, this interferes with previously mentioned properties and makes the picture clearer for me
- a symmetry which was discovered between words like dunia, akhira, shayateen malaika, yawm, shahr, sana, etc....
The list is only a compact example, there are many many other properties which i am aware of and which i am not aware of.
Best regards,
sabo -
Salaam sabo n all,
...i see that there are many properties which are TOGETHER make a production of a sura like it an IMPOSSIBLE task.
Out of curiousity, what difference does any of this make... really. ? I mean, is this all to prove that quran is from God? or some version isn't?.. or... ?
Please, anyone who can clarify for me briefly, I would appreciate it. )
Peace!
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while I applaud the effort and indepth research by brother Layth and others on this thread, here's my point of view on the whole situation, if i may
We all know that God has said that he will preserve the koran and that none can alter his words.
18.27 And recite what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord, there is none who can alter His words; and you shall not find any refuge besides Him.
Judging and believing in that alone, it seems to me that the semantic differences which we are investigating must be invalid and insignificant or (with all highly due respect to those working on it) wrong. i.e. the differences in the 2 different versions which exist must be making no alteration to God's word or its meaning. I mean, if the versions which exist are indeed an ALTERATION of the original koran, then the religion would fail because God has said that none can alter his words. The fact that these 2 versions exist..its only becoz God has allowed it too, and they cannont be alterations of the original koran. To me it means that either "version" is correct or theyr not different and there's something we're overlooking.
Basically point im making is that I wouldnt go to the extent of saying that there's 2 different versions of the koran, or implying that the semantic differences between the versions make a difference to Gods words or their meaning, as that would go against surah 1827 above, which is God's own word, unarguable.
Just my humble point of view.
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Peace samquex n all,
And thanks for posting your view, in a lot of ways we share the same ideas. )
I mean, if the versions which exist are indeed an ALTERATION of the original koran, then the religion would fail...
Would it? idea
Here's an example to clarify my questions even further, let us say a 'book' came from God, literally fell from the sky and onto you hands. You (anyone) have NO doubt whatsoever that it's from God. Up to this point... does it mean anything?...
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Salaam,
I'm not here very often but alot of things does certainly happens.
Have now everyone became 19 followers!!!???
sis Majidah
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Peace Zenje,
Out of curiousity, what difference does any of this make... really. I mean, is this all to prove that quran is from God? or some version isn't?.. or...
Please, anyone who can clarify for me briefly, I would appreciate it.
For myself, I am interested to know what the original form of the revelation was (to the letter)...
I believe that there are enough proofs within the Quran itself so that this is not a futile excersize.
The next logical step once this is all sorted out would be to unify the Quran into one text...same number of words, letters, verse stops, etc..
As things stand now they are totally unacceptable.
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Sister SwedenMajidah not everyone. Me, Idolfree, MQuran I can say are still not the followers of number 19.
Salaam to you,
Nice to hear because even if I have friends who are 19 followers I have never really believed in that.
I think it's dangerous to play with numbers and it can be a trick from shaitan to let people go astray by focus on wrong things.Peace
Sis Majidah -
Peace,
What is a 19 follower?! I haven't personally come across people that FOLLOW a number! Personally I see a lot of signs and significance in the number 19 within Quran but I can't see how one can follow a number in a spiritual/religous sense!
Can you please explain further about '19 followers'? A more specific definition please. There are many people that see mathematical patterns in the Quran involving the Initialed surahs based on the number 19 but thats all.
Would anyone who has witnessed a sign involving 19 (me and many others) but do not worship 19 be classed as 19 followers?
Nural
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Peace Sabo,
Tell me, what is your take on the following...
- 29 Suras are initialed
- 29 Suras do not have the word 'Allah' in them.
The total = 58
However, the two set's are interlocked by Sura 68 (which is both initialed, and does not have the word 'Allah' in it) making the total of Suras 57...
Exactly half of the Scripture.
i.e. Half is interlocked, Half is similar.
