Skip to content
  • Categories
  • Recent
  • Users
Skins
  • Light
  • Brite
  • Cerulean
  • Cosmo
  • Flatly
  • Journal
  • Litera
  • Lumen
  • Lux
  • Materia
  • Minty
  • Morph
  • Pulse
  • Sandstone
  • Simplex
  • Sketchy
  • Spacelab
  • United
  • Yeti
  • Zephyr
  • Dark
  • Cyborg
  • Darkly
  • Quartz
  • Slate
  • Solar
  • Superhero
  • Vapor

  • Default (No Skin)
  • No Skin
Collapse
Free Minds Forum Icon
  1. Home
  2. General Issues / Questions
  3. Questions/Comments on the Quran
  4. Kalala Inheritance Revisited

Kalala Inheritance Revisited

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Questions/Comments on the Quran
38 Posts 5 Posters 579 Views
  • Oldest to Newest
  • Newest to Oldest
  • Most Votes
Reply
  • Reply as topic
Log in to reply
This topic has been deleted. Only users with topic management privileges can see it.
  • O Offline
    O Offline
    Onur
    wrote on last edited by
    #10

    http//books.google.com/books?id=OUxWN1VBnBEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=david+powers+consonantal+skeleton&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uqSKUfOkEZHNqAGenIHIBw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=david%20powers%20consonantal%20skeleton&f=false

    Please study this book to get a sense of the big controversy around this word. The issue is not as easy as you think. Page 163-164 explains the difficulties around grammar.

    1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • M Offline
      M Offline
      Mazhar
      wrote on last edited by
      #11

      http//books.google.com/books?id=OUxWN1VBnBEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=david+powers+consonantal+skeleton&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uqSKUfOkEZHNqAGenIHIBw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=david%20powers%20consonantal%20skeleton&f=false

      Please study this book to get a sense of the big controversy around this word. The issue is not as easy as you think. Page 163-164 explains the difficulties around grammar.

      The nonsense of his thoughts might be gauged from the fact that he says that this word Kalala had not existed in Arabic.

      The word is used by Arabs seeking a jurisprudential ruling.

      They seek from you the Messenger your personal jurisprudential ruling.
      You tell them; "Not me but Allah the Exalted gives you the legal ruling in the situation regards a person deceased being all himself-singular parent inherited by a singular Parent-Mother or Father.

      Why they sought ruling in this particular situation? This was the only point that was not covered in earlier injunctions on inheritance.

      1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • O Offline
        O Offline
        Onur
        wrote on last edited by
        #12

        I don't agree with all his views either but the controversy is real. His claim is that the word in the Quran was originally kalla- meaning wife and daughter-in-law in Semitic languages- and then changed to kalala, a previously unknown word, in order to disinherit Zaynab, the prophet's former daughter-in-law and later wife. 4176 was inserted to the Quran to do this, he argues. He claims to present evidence from an early copy of the Quran.
        The word and its peculiar usage in 412 and 4176, especially the accusative use in 412, are particularly noteworthy. The word kalla, in his opinion, fits the accusative use better.
        To meet his challange, the best strategy is to consult the etymology of the word- k-l-l- and the usage of the same root in 1676. It is, in my view, a multi-meaning word(in accordance with 37) which opens interesting possibilities. It is, I believe, associated with dependency( as in 1676) To me, the connection between the concepts of dependence and inheritance is obvious.
        As a general principle, I'd caution you against hasty and passionate judgments in scholarly research- you seem to dismiss as nonsense whatever you don't immediately like.

        1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • M Offline
          M Offline
          Mazhar
          wrote on last edited by
          #13

          I don't agree with all his views either but the controversy is real. His claim is that the word in the Quran was originally kalla- meaning wife and daughter-in-law in Semitic languages- and then changed to kalala, a previously unknown word, in order to disinherit Zaynab, the prophet's former daughter-in-law and later wife. 4176 was a later addition, he argues. He claims to present evidence from an early copy of the Quran.
          The word and its peculiar usage in 412 and 4176, especially the accusative use in 412, are particularly noteworthy. The word kalla, in his opinion, fits the accusative use better.
          To meet his challange, the best strategy is to consult the etymology of the word- k-l-l- and the usage of the same root in 1676. It is, in my view, a multi-meaning word(in accordance with 37) which opens interesting possibilities. It is, I believe, associated with dependency( as in 1676) To me, the connection between the concepts of dependence and inheritance is obvious.
          As a general principle, I'd caution you against hasty and passionate judgments in scholarly research- you seem to dismiss as nonsense whatever you don't immediately like.

          I remember that his "scholarly" investigation were attended and responded. Please just google by his book name.

          1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • N Offline
            N Offline
            Noon_waalqalami
            wrote on last edited by
            #14

            Peace,

            Interesting thread needs closer examination and yes there is definable confusion.

            http//www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Menj/bravo_r2b.htm

            Kalalah - S. 412

            Ibn Kathir notes

            The Meaning of Kalalah

            Allah said ...

            <If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question was left in Kalalah.>

            Kalalah is a derivative of Iklil; the crown that surrounds the head. The meaning of Kalalah in this Ayah is that the person's heirs come from other than the first degree of relative. Ash-Sha'bi reported that when Abu Bakr Siddiq was asked about the meaning of Kalalah, he said, "I will say MY OWN OPINION ABOUT IT, and IF IT IS CORRECT, then this correctness is from Allah. However, if my opinion IS WRONG, it will be my error and because of the evil efforts of Shaytan, and Allah and His Messenger have nothing to do with it. Kalalah refers to the man who has neither descendants nor ascendants." When ?Umar became the Khalifah, he said, "I HESITATE TO CONTRADICT AN OPINION OF ABU BAKR." This was recorded by Ibn Jarir and others.

            In his Tafsir, Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn ?Abbas said, "I was among the last persons to see ?Umar bin Al-Khattab, and he said to me, ?What you said was the correct opinion.? I asked, ?What did I say?? He said, ?That Kalalah refers to the person who has no child or parents.?" This is also the opinion of ?Ali bin Abi Talib, Ibn Ma'sud, Ibn ?Abbas, Zayd bin Thabit, Ash-Sha'bi, An-Nakha'I, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Qatadah, Jabir bin Zayd and Al-Hakam. This is also the view of the people of AL-Madinah, Kufah, Basrah, the Seven Fuqaha, the Four Imams and the majority of scholars of the past and present, causing some scholars to declare that there is a consensus on this opinion. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Abridged), Volume 2, Parts 3, 4, & 5 (Surat Al-Baqarah, Verse 253, to Surat An-Nisa, Verse 147), abridged by a group of scholars under the supervision of Shaykh Safiur-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri , pp. 395-396; bold and capital emphasis mine)

            Here, the meaning of Kalalah is determined by the consensus view of men who were not completely certain about its precise meaning!

            Ibn Warraq notes

            The last five or so lines of Sura IV.12 have been the source of much controversy among Muslim commentators. Tabari devotes seven pages to these few lines. As David Powers tells us "Almost every word in the opening line of this verse is subject to dispute, and there may be as many as four or five different opinions, espoused by an even greater number of authorities, for every point in question." Powers shows that precise meaning of kalala also remains a subject of controversy, with Tabari citing twenty-seven separate definitions by various authorities. It is not clear if this word kalala refers to the deceased himself (al-mawruth) or to the heirs of the deceased (al-waratha). (Warraq, "Introduction", What the Koran Really Says, Language, Text & Commentary , p. 47)

            This book is based on "conspiracy theory" and conjecture by the author.

            http//rorotoko.com/interview/20090904_powers_david_muhammad_not_father_any_your_men_making_last_prophet/?page=2

            "...In Q. 412, we find the phrase kalala aw imra?a. There is a striking similarity between the Akkadian and Arabic phrases Akkadian martu and Arabic imra?a are derived from the same root, have the same morphology, and have a similar meaning (?daughter,? ?woman?). Similarly, Akkadian kallatu and Arabic kalala are derived from the same root. But they have a different morphology and a different meaning. Akkadian kallatu signifies daughter-in-law; Arabic kalala signifies collateral relatives. Be that as it may, I now asked myself Is it possible that the Akkadian phrase passed into Arabic and resurfaced 2,000 years later, in a slightly modified form, in the Qur?an? ...

            Based upon the linguistic evidence from Nuzi and my analysis of folio 10b, I maintain that the early Muslim community changed the spelling of one word in Q. 412 kalala was originally kalla.

            At first sight, this argument is improbable, as the word kalla does not exist in the Arabic language. All is not lost, however. In every Semitic language except for Arabic, one finds an equivalent of our hypothetical *kalla, i.e., kallatu, kallah, kallta. In each instance, the noun functions as a kinship term that signifies a daughter-in-law. If one reads *kalla (?daughter-in-law?) instead of kalala(?collaterals?) in Q. 412, then the original meaning of the verse would have been, ?If a man designates a daughter-in-law (kalla) or wife as heir and he has a brother or sister, each one of them is entitled to one-sixth.?

            The addition of a single letter (a second lam) transformed the meaning of the verse, which ? not without difficulty ? came to be understood as signifying, ?If a man is inherited by collaterals (kalalatan) or a woman , and he has a brother or sister, each one of them is entitled to one-sixth? (words within brackets indicate glosses). The semantic change is significant. What force on earth might have motivated the first Muslims to revise the text of the Qur?an? It was my effort to answer this question that led me to the theological doctrine of the finality of prophecy..."

            This book by Agostino Cilardo seems to be slightly better a study ...

            The Qur'anic Term Kalala Studies in Arabic Language and Poetry, Hadit, Tafsir, and Fiqh Notes on the Origins of Islamic Law (JAIS Monographs EUP) Hardcover ? April 14, 2005

            http//www.amazon.com/The-Quranic-Term-Kalala-Monographs/dp/074861916X

            http//en.alukah.net/World_Muslims/0/2885/

            Agostino Cilardo is a full Professor at the University of Naples ?L?Orientale?.
            Professore ordinario di ?Storia e istituzioni del mondo musulmano?.
            Coordinatore del Dottorato di ricerca su ?Asia, Africa e Mediterraneo?
            Direttore della rivista ?Studi Magrebini?.
            Universit? degli Studi di Napoli ?L?Orientale?.
            Dipartimento Asia, Africa e Mediterraneo.
            P.zza S. Domenico M., 12.
            80134 Napoli (Italy)

            We have a fresh opportunity to reflect about the Qur?anic term Kalla, more particularly its role in the legal sphere. At this point Professor Agostino Cilardo is going to speak about his view on the term Kalla in his work, but in other works too.

            Q First of all, what prompted you to take up Arabic studies?

            A C I have a long familiarity with the Arab-Islamic world since I began to study the Arabic language in the junior high school and I continued up thereafter. I also studied Islamic religion, history and philosophy in the high school. After that, I enrolled at the ?Orientale? in Naples, where I deepened my knowledge of Islamic culture. In particular, I was fascinated by the study of the Islamic legal thought, so that my first dissertation concerned the formation of the Islamic law.
            My researches have gone on and are mostly, but not exclusively, devoted to the classic and contemporary family law, the law of inheritance and the travel literature. My second dissertation concerned, in ft, the Egyptian family law.
            As far as the law of inheritance is concerned, I have a number of publications on this issue. In particular, in two of my books I presented the whole inheritance system of the Imami and Isma?ili schools (1993), and the system of the Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi?i, Hanbali, Zahiri, Zaydi and Ibadi schools (1994).

            Q You wrote ?The Qur?anic Term Kalla Studies in Arabic Language and Poetry, Hadit, Tafsir, and Fiqh??. I wish to ask you which is the use of Kalla in Poetry?

            A C One of the problems I fed studying the inheritance law was the interpretation of the term Kalla, present in two Qur?anic verses (Q. 412 and 176) since it takes different meanings depending on the law schools. So I deemed useful to analyze its use in objective non-religious sources other than legal texts. Once quired its original meaning, I could compare it with the use made by jurists of the different law schools. Sometimes Arabic words have an usual sense while they quire a specific meaning in specific context. This is the case. In ft, examining the few verses of poets of the pre-Islamic period and early Islamic era the conclusion was that Kalla refers to all male relatives, except male ascendants and male descendants, that is collaterals. But the usual meaning of Kalla is feebleness.

            Q There are many schools, for instance the school of Kufa and the school of Basra. What about the difference between them concerning the interpretation of the term Kalla?

            A C The debate which developed among and inside the law schools moved from the original definition of the term Kalla to its doctrinal implications. The hadith literature is the source which enables us to know the most ancient doctrinal elaboration. Kufa and Medina were the main centres where this debate developed. The interpretation of the term was not unique even in eh school; inside eh school there was an opposition, so that we find a prevalent Iraqi doctrine, but some Kufan and Basran scholars didn?t agree with it. The same was in Medina. In general, they adapted the meaning of Kalla to their own doctrine. The conclusion is that no legal Sunni school kept the Arabic meaning of the term Kalla.

            Q I wonder where does the term Kalla derive from?

            A C The etymology of the term Kalla is explained in a different way. Those scholars who believe that Kalla is a feature of the collaterals derive their interpretation from the verb takallala, that is a kinship which surrounds the deceased person, i.e. relatives related to the deceased in the absence of the two utmost parts (descendants and ascendants), i.e. collaterals. On the contrary, those scholars who believe that Kalla means the person with neither descendants nor ascendants derive it from the infinitive of kalla/yakillu, that is a deceased person is feeble if he has died having no direct kinship line.

            Q What about the definition of Kalla in the Iraqi school?

            A C A minority Kufan and Basran scholars opposed to the most prevalent definition of the term Kalla in Kufa, but they were superseded. The prevailing definition, followed in the Hanafi school, formally reflects the old pre-Islamic meaning (a person who has died leaving neither walad nor wlid). However, the two terms ?walad? and ?wlid? are differently interpreted with reference to the pre-Islamic period and, I say, with reference to the Arabic language. In Arabic the word ?walad? has an inclusive sense, as male and female descendants, however low. On the contrary, with reference to Qur?an 412, the Hanafi school limits the meaning of the term only to male descendants of any degree, to daughters, and to female descendants of male children of any degree. Then, with reference to Qur?an 4176, the Hanafi school doesn?t include daughters and male descendants? daughters in the concept of ?walad?. Moreover, as far as the term ?wlid? is concerned, the Hanafi school interprets it as ?father? and, by analogy, all male ascendants in the paternal line, however high, respecting the original meaning of the term.

            Q Is there any work before you about Kalla? After your work, David S. Powers wrote ?Muhammad Is Not the Father of Any of Your Men The Making of the Last Prophet 2009?. I wish to know what you think about.

            A C I found intriguing to deepen the knowledge of this term because of its juridical implications. David S. Powers, in his article in ?Studia Islamica? (1982), gave a new version of the Qur?anic verses 412 and 176, based on his innovative interpretation of the term Kalla. He continued his researches in this direction in his book ?Studies in Qur?an and hadith?? (1986) and in the work you quoted. The particular meaning given by Powers to the term Kalla substantially changed the inheritance rules followed by Muslims since the beginning till today. In order to establish the ext meaning of such term, I undertook this specific study, considering the issue in its whole. Thus I searched the Arabic sources of every kind mentioning the term in their particular context, beginning from the pre-Islamic period. Preceding the publication of my book on Kalla, I already critically analyzed the doctrine of Powers (1990) and I presented a ?Preliminary notes on the Qur?anic term Kalla? (1996) at the Eighteenth Congress of the Union Europ?enne des Arabisants et Islamisants (Leuven, Belgium). My conclusion is that there is a precise sense of Kalla in the Arabic language, as we can see in Poetry, but jurists adapted it to their own specific doctrines, without, however, disregarding its original meaning.

            1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • M Offline
              M Offline
              Mazhar
              wrote on last edited by
              #15
              1. http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00090.%20a%20Kull%20Kaaf%20Laam%20Laam/12.gif Verbal Noun accusative. It is intriguing that people have been debating about this verbal noun as to its meanings and peculiarities of the person who is in such state-circumstance. This man or woman cannot be he/she who are already mentioned. He is not a person who is bereaved by a single daughter, two daughters or grouped progenies; he is not a person whose parents, both mother and father are alive; and he is not a person whose spouse is bereaved. It refers to that state of a person when the spouse is already dead or divorced and has single parent, either mother or father, surviving at the time of his death. In addition to this peculiar situation, such man may or may not have a surviving son at the time of his death. Here in this Ayah it is evident that this spouseless man or woman does have a surviving son to inherit from the inheritance.

              2. The aforesaid instructions and Mandatory Allocation of parts of inheritance amongst various beneficiaries by Allah the Exalted cover all the situations that might be the ground realities at the time of death of a Man or a Woman. However, one situation is not covered whereby one will have to resort to other deductive method to infer the apportioned share. The people of the days of revelation fully acknowledged and understood the injunctions about inheritance. They did not have an iota of confusion. This fact is evident because people requested the Elevated Messenger of Allah the Exalted to give them the confirmation-strengthened verdict at his own about the only situation which was not covered in the aforementioned injunctions in Ayah 411 and 412. That situation is regards a person who is bachelor or single without spouse, has a singular alive parent, either Mother or Father, but did not have a son.

              Grand Qur'aan, disapproving patrilineal inheritance, declared daughter not Son as the central theme of Inheritance.

              1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • N Offline
                N Offline
                Noon_waalqalami
                wrote on last edited by
                #16
                1. http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/00090.%20a%20Kull%20Kaaf%20Laam%20Laam/12.gif Verbal Noun accusative. It is intriguing that people have been debating about this verbal noun as to its meanings and peculiarities of the person who is in such state-circumstance. This man or woman cannot be he/she who are already mentioned. He is not a person who is bereaved by a single daughter, two daughters or grouped progenies; he is not a person whose parents, both mother and father are alive; and he is not a person whose spouse is bereaved. It refers to that state of a person when the spouse is already dead or divorced and has single parent, either mother or father, surviving at the time of his death. In addition to this peculiar situation, such man may or may not have a surviving son at the time of his death. Here in this Ayah it is evident that this spouseless man or woman does have a surviving son to inherit from the inheritance.

                Peace Mazhar,

                Need more concise proof, anyone can state al-kalalati means ?daughter in law? or fatherless illegitimate child, child born out of wedlock, mother known since she gave birth and uterine siblings, etc., or most anything challenge others to disprove them?

                We don't have to go into math with impossible distributions.

                Agostino Cilardo seemed to have used a sensible approach.

                http//www.amazon.com/The-Quranic-Term-Kalala-Monograph/dp/074861916X

                http//oi61.tinypic.com/23w4mdt.jpg

                An Anonymous Poet proclaimed
                Surely, a father protects more wrathfully his offspring, while a patron of collaterals does not get angry.

                and patron al-kalalati not gets angry

                It can be reasoned from the above poem that al-kalalati i.e. while alive is fatherless.

                7128 ? the earth to god yrithuh/inherits it from/whom he wills

                412 ? and if be man yrathu/inherits kalalatan or woman and to him brother or sister so to each one from them dual the sixth?

                4176 they seek ruling your say the god gives ruling you in/concerning al-kalalati if person perished not for him offspring and for him sister so for her half what left and he yarithuh/heir hers if not that be for her offspring?

                The question kalalatan in 412 does it pertain to a living heir or departed?
                If deceased which verse to apply give 1 sister = 1/6 in 412 or 1/2 per 4176?

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • M Offline
                  M Offline
                  Mazhar
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #17

                  Peace Mazhar,

                  Need more concise proof, anyone can state al-kalalati means ?daughter in law? or fatherless illegitimate child, child born out of wedlock, mother known since she gave birth and uterine siblings, etc., or most anything challenge others to disprove them?

                  Salamun alaika,

                  Stupids and mentally retarded apart, no one does that. The subject is Inheritance. It will revolve around the person who died and the state obtaining at that point in time regarding his heirs. If someone misses not the point that the disputed word is a Verbal Noun that denotes a state of a particular person since it is definite. The examples mentioned by you are common nouns.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • M Offline
                    M Offline
                    Mazhar
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #18

                    Dear Noon,

                    The conceptual meanings of a word of a language can be studied by what features it possesses, and also be implication negative; by what features it does not possess.

                    Please in the text of Grand Qur'aan as to what features this word has and contrast by features it does not have. Meanings will become apparent.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • N Offline
                      N Offline
                      Noon_waalqalami
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #19

                      It will revolve around the person who died and the state obtaining at that point in time regarding his heirs.

                      Peace Mazhar,

                      Please explain with reference to poem and can it not also pertain to living heir of the deceased/patron?

                      An Anonymous Poet proclaimed
                      Surely, a father protects more wrathfully his offspring, while a patron of collaterals does not get angry.

                      and patron al-kalalati not gets angry

                      Here is another example ...

                      I did not inherit ancestral glory as a collateral (kalala),
                      and the time has not come for me to yield to a successor.

                      http//oi60.tinypic.com/ekq6u1.jpg

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • M Offline
                        M Offline
                        Mazhar
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #20

                        He has erred in understanding and translating the line. Yourself determine the role of Kalala in that sentence to realize he erred.

                        Better to pay attention that I advised you to see the features given about Kalala in Qur'aa.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • N Offline
                          N Offline
                          Noon_waalqalami
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #21

                          He has erred in understanding and translating the line. Yourself determine the role of Kalala in that sentence to realize he erred.

                          Better to pay attention that I advised you to see the features given about Kalala in Qur'aa.

                          http//oi62.tinypic.com/sfwg7k.jpg

                          and patron al-kalalati not gets angry

                          Peace, need to verify Kalala in Qur'an cannot be applicable to heir; can please translate this part?

                          http//oi58.tinypic.com/i26moj.jpg

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • N Offline
                            N Offline
                            Noon_waalqalami
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #22

                            http//oi58.tinypic.com/i26moj.jpg

                            and not I inherit al-majd/the glory al-taleed/the ancestral/glorious kalalatan

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • M Offline
                              M Offline
                              Mazhar
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #23

                              http//oi58.tinypic.com/i26moj.jpg

                              and not I inherit al-majd/the glory al-taleed/the ancestral/glorious kalalatan

                              It is not Ma but Lam; therefore the following verb is in Jussive mood. The next two words are phrase as object of verb. kalalatan is in accusative state. It is Cognate Adverb.

                              Try to know the difference between negation by Ma and Lam; function of cognate adverb then you will be able to perceive what actually he had said, though we will not be able to put in translation because that will spoil the poetry.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • N Offline
                                N Offline
                                Noon_waalqalami
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #24

                                It is not Ma but Lam; therefore the following verb is in Jussive mood. The next two words are phrase as object of verb. kalalatan is in accusative state. It is Cognate Adverb.

                                Try to know the difference between negation by Ma and Lam; function of cognate adverb then you will be able to perceive what actually he had said, though we will not be able to put in translation because that will spoil the poetry.

                                Yes it was a typo and meant to write as in...

                                1123 lam/not begets walam/and not begotten

                                Don't care about ruining poetry or how it comes out in English only meaning of kalala in the phrase?

                                walam/and not I inherit al-majd/the glory al-taleed/the glorious kalalatan

                                https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPBbGHQDB48

                                It seems about ancestral honor and it can be concluded from the two poems that kalala can refer to

                                1. a living dependent
                                2. a living inheritor
                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • M Offline
                                  M Offline
                                  Mazhar
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #25

                                  Yes it was a typo and meant to write as in...

                                  1123 lam/not begets walam/and not begotten

                                  Don't care about ruining poetry or how it comes out in English only meaning of kalala in the phrase?

                                  walam/and not I inherit al-majd/the glory al-taleed/the glorious kalalatan

                                  https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPBbGHQDB48

                                  It seems about ancestral honor and it can be concluded from the two poems that kalala can refer to

                                  1. a living dependent
                                  2. a living inheritor

                                  No, in Grand Qur'aan it is the state in which a deceased died.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • M Offline
                                    M Offline
                                    Mazhar
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #26

                                    Further, if he wanted to say what you have perceived, he would not have used Lam with Jussive verb. He would have used Ma and Perfect verb. What he is emphatically arguing is that he has inherited glory patrilineally not of a Kalala. This is normal practice in tribes.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • N Offline
                                      N Offline
                                      Noon_waalqalami
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #27

                                      No, in Grand Qur'aan it is the state in which a deceased died.

                                      What he is emphatically arguing is that he has inherited glory patrilineally not of a Kalala.

                                      Are you sure? Contradiction when applied consistently to Qur'an...

                                      412 ... and if be man he inherit of a kalala or woman and to him brother or sister

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • M Offline
                                        M Offline
                                        Mazhar
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #28

                                        Are you sure? Contradiction when applied consistently to Qur'an...

                                        412 ... and if be man he inherit of a kalala or woman and to him brother or sister

                                        You seem to have missed noticing the verb is PASSIVE not active voice. It subject noun is hidden and refers to .

                                        Verb Imperfect; third person; singular; masculine; Passive; Mood Indicative; ; Proxy Subject pronoun hidden; - Verbal noun. (1)412=1 -/ -- -

                                        Further is Circumstantial clause evident by its accusative case ending. This is the state in which the deceased man or woman is being inherited.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • N Offline
                                          N Offline
                                          Noon_waalqalami
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #29

                                          You seem to have missed noticing the verb is PASSIVE not active voice. It subject noun is hidden and refers to .

                                          Verb Imperfect; third person; singular; masculine; Passive; Mood Indicative; ; Proxy Subject pronoun hidden; - Verbal noun. (1)412=1 -/ -- -

                                          Further is Circumstantial clause evident by its accusative case ending. This is the state in which the deceased man or woman is being inherited.

                                          It depends on correct reading of y-w-r-t with traditions/arguments that support different views.

                                          1. 412 wa-in/and if kna/be rajulun/man yrathu/inherited kalalatan
                                            yrathu passive imperfect verb -- kalala as quality of the deceased derived from kalla/yakillu or became feeble, died leaving neither walad nor walid as heirs.

                                          2. 412 wa-in/and if kna/be rajulun/man yrithu/inherits kalalatan
                                            also see ...
                                            7128 the earth to god yrithuh/inherits it from wills
                                            yrithu active transitive verb -- kalala as quality of heirs derived from takalala or leaves inheritance to those who surround (i.e. next of kin brother/s and/or sister/s) as a crown

                                          In addition there are traditions to support other views including that kalala can refer to ?the deceased and the heirs? likewise numerous debates on the exact meaning of walad and walid. The correct view/definition needs to address difference (among others) what amount to apply for sister?

                                          412 ? or sister so to each one from them dual the sixth
                                          4176 ? and for him sister so for her half

                                          1 Reply Last reply
                                          0
                                          Reply
                                          • Reply as topic
                                          Log in to reply
                                          • Oldest to Newest
                                          • Newest to Oldest
                                          • Most Votes


                                          • Login

                                          • Don't have an account? Register

                                          • Login or register to search.
                                          • First post
                                            Last post
                                          0
                                          • Categories
                                          • Recent
                                          • Users