One Word - One Definition?

Ali_Imran

Peace MQ,

The posting was meant for Natu, who is accessible to Edip's commentary on Aidid's book, but is not privy to subsequent debate on it. I am in no position, and never intended, to answer your questions on behalf of Aidid, or Farook. I think you should address your questions directly to them as I don't think they are strangers to you. Nevertheless, below is my personal comment. As I am still struggling with this BB cut and paste thing, I instead numbered the issues that you raised and insert my comment accordingly.

Cambridge Dictionary (CD) is used not as the criterion to define deen, but to express its meaning, usage and abusage in English language as this debate is in English. To me the meaning of dean, whether its religion or orderly way of life, or whatever the terms are in other languages, is clear cut in the Quran. Its really up to you to choose which one.
I have no problem using the concept orderly way of life instead of religion in all the verses quoted. Whats the issue?
There is no shiati Nuh in 3783.
481 is one.
True, if you took 597 by itself, it could sound strange. But the verse should be read together with 595-96, and 51-2. The verses are about hunting and 597 introduces ankle as the indicator in the context of hunting for the righteous and orderly way of life, at least according to Aidid Safar. I expect a better argument from you.

A.

lrhazi

There is no ?shiati Nuh? in 3783.

Right. but there is "his" shiAAat.... and who does "his" refer to? Nuh.

In the above message we read

This is Edip's conspiracy ....

That cannot be. for conspiracy is that of more than one person )

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Ali Imran,

Aidid's contribution to Quranic thought was amazing. I have looked through the known history of Quranic thinking and cannot find this level of Quranic understanding anywhere. I suspect Parwez knew about the true meaning of the house (see his Islam A Challenge to Religion Chapter on 'man and war') but he never opened up about it. So, I'd be one of the last people to denounce 'Arab Conspiracies' as I've benefitted from it myself. However, this doesn't mean we can't look at it criticially. Indeed, during the editorial process itself, I did forward some comments but they were clearly rejected. I respect Aidid's decision, but whenever these views come out, I'd have to show that there are arguments against. No offense intended and certainly nothing personal. Now, on to the issue

Cambridge Dictionary (CD) is used not as the criterion to define deen, but to express its meaning, usage and abusage in English language as this debate is in English. To me the meaning of dean, whether its religion or orderly way of life, or whatever the terms are in other languages, is clear cut in the Quran. Its really up to you to choose which one.
I have no problem using the concept orderly way of life instead of religion in all the verses quoted. Whats the issue?

My point was, in Arab Conspiracies, Deen was contrasted to religion to show how the true message became corrupted. Deen became religion, if you like. The problem is, this process of corruption doesn't have a Quranic basis.

The Quran has 2 things

ad-deen (al-islaam)
ad-deen kullihi (every other deen, found in 48/28, 9/33 and 61/9)
There is no shiati Nuh in 3783

Please see context, as Lhrazi says above. Point is, the word 'shiaa' has been used for a Prophet. As has the word 'millat' , 'manasik'. Every word has a positive connotation as well as a negative one.

481 is one

As you well know, 'arabs plotting' doesn't exist in the verse. I'm not sure if you think that the word 'qaum' or 'taaifat' refers to a racial entity ?

True, if you took 597 by itself, it could sound strange. But the verse should be read together with 595-96, and 51-2. The verses are about hunting and 597 introduces ankle as the indicator in the context of hunting for the righteous and orderly way of life, at least according to Aidid Safar. I expect a better argument from you.

5/95 O you who believe, do not kill the wildlife which you are restricted (Hurumun). If anyone kills on purpose, he shall expatiate with an equivalent livestock to be judged by two equitable men from among you to point out the maturity the ankles (kabati) or expiate by feeding the poor or impose self-abstinence (from hunting), so that he feels the consequences of his actions. God has pardoned his previous offences. Whoever reverts to his offence, God will avenge from him. God is almighty, avenger

God has set the ankles (kabata) the sanctioned system (baytil-Harami) to be upheld for mankind, and the restricted months (shahrul Harama), and guidelines (hadya), and the indicators (qolaa-ida). This is to let you know that God, He knows everything in the heavens and the earth and what is beneath the earth. And surely God is fully aware of everything. (597)

My comments;

a. 'to point out the maturity the ankles' doesn't exist in the verse. To point, or signal something is called ''auha' or 'isyara'.

b. 'the ankles' the sactioned system' isn't a sensible phrase. it's 'the ankles of the sanctioned house' which is the correct translation but of course makes the translation unintelligble.

c. 'to be upheld' is also not in the sense. 'qiyaaman' is something which upholds you, not which you uphold.

those are my comments. i have made these comments before to Aidid himself during the editorial process. This comment was merely to set the record straight, hope you don't mind.

peace.

Natu

Peace.

Thnks for the help everybody, I'm going to print thi thread out and then get back to you.

Peace.
Natu on the line.

KGB

I am really getting sick of these pseudo intellectuals poping up in internet some with number 19 the other one blaming it all on Arab conspiracies. The message of Qur'an is easy to understand and follow and we are aware the people who will be on the right path would be the ones who take the best meaning out of the message.

God safe us from all the fitna.

Natu

Peace.

I managed to read the thread, and it seems one word one definition is working out. Though I'm not adamant on it yet.

mquran What do you think of ritual prayer and pilgrimage? Seems you accepting and being critical of Aidid, which I really like.

Peace.
Natu on the line.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Natu,

Aidid Safar is a pioneer for me. When the hajj discussions started in mid-2002, Aidid triggered a massive 'evolution' in Quranic thought. One thing which struck me at the time was the amazing conceptual power of al-quraan emerging. Suddenly, if someone asked you, 'why do you believe this is to be God's teachings' , the answer was much clearer. If you read books by political thinkers like Aristotle, Plato, Locke, Hobbes etc, you will find that their thoughts simply do not measure up. Aidid catalysed this for me. He succeeded where the Sunnis and even Parwez failed.

However, the beauty about our 'camp' is that no man is the final word. While Aidid succesfully deconstructed the ritualistic hajj, I feel his own interpretation of 'house' , 'masjid' ,'kaaba' etc didn't fit the Quranic criteria.

To me 'salaat' is generally a link one builds wih God's system. For ppl without belief, salaat essentially means to be in alignment with Gods system. For believers, its about establishing a focus on your covenant with Allah twice daily in order to keep moving in His direction.

Hajj is the process of establishment of God's system on earth and umra is its culturation. Once we have done this, we call humankind 'with' the hajj (22/26) and they will come to us because they will benefit for themselves. (22/27).

hope that helps or least suffices for now )

thanks and peace

Natu

Peace mquran

"For believers, its about establishing a focus on your covenant with Allah twice daily in order to keep moving in His direction."

It all makes sense to me now, if it doesn't take you too long, please could you tell me where this'twice daily' thing comes in and what its about. i just want to look into it myself. Thanks

Peace.
Natu on the line.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Natu,

The verse which tells me 'twice daily' is 11/114

And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night...

To me, this signifies that at ends of the day, we begin salat until night appears.

My salaat consists of washing myself, reading inspiring passages from the book such as those reflecting my own situation etc. I then focus on my own tasks ahead and ask Allah's help.

hope that helps.

Natu

Peace.

That helps a lot, thanks mquran. Although, I have heard somewhere that this verse contains 'through' the two ends of the day. So up until now I had the impression that 11114 was basically telling us to uphold our commitments throughout the day and night, whenever we are awake. Don't know if the word 'through' is there or if I've mixed verses up. Thanks for your help.

Peace.
Natu on the line.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Natu,

For the record, I LOVE masala fish and would pay extra for the sauce

As for 11/114 having the word 'through', I have never seen the word 'through' in the Quraan. I will check this out today though.

thanks and peace, brother

Natu

As a general comment, from what I have now researched and come across, it is clear to me that the one word one definition system is perfectly valid, and is the only real way to translate the Quran into different languages. Only then can we discuss differences in points of view through interpretation. So right now I'm waiting for Aidid Safar to get his translation complete, what is already available of it already is quite impressive (I think). Although I do accept that his footnotes are perhaps unneccessarily over-emotional, in terms of classing people who have made misinterpretations as enemies of God and Muhammad, I don't think many translators have this at the top of their to do list, and as far as classing people as idol worshippers or believers, I thinks that task is best left to the creator wink . I strongly recomment readers to check his translation out at http//aididsafar.com, it has solved a lot of problems for me, hope it does for others aswell.

Mquran - thanks for your help, for analysing analysis of analysis. ? , you get what I mean. I look forward to hearing from you regarding the word 'through'. I would be very grateful if you would provide a one word one definition translation of 11114, becuase Aidid hasn't got round to making one yet, and, well, lets say i'm a little impatient.

Any arguments to swing my position away from one word one definition would still be welcome lol, we shall never stop learning.

Peace.
Natu on the line.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Natu,

Al-Qur'aan tells us that Allah doesn't run out of words. Therefore, if He meant something else, He would have used another word. This is my take on the situation.

As for translations, I'm not too happy with it being the end point of one's Quranic education. Allow me to explain why.

Lets take the word 'deen'. From the Quranic contexts we can see that 'deen'

is a signifier to the 'aaliha' (gods) whom one gives 'ibada' (worship) to (10/109)
is about following certain ahkaam (laws)..12/40
is realised when one believes and acts rightesously (24/55)

and so on.

So the word 'deen' becomes like 'x' in 'x= 2y + 4z ...'. A loaded word in one's mind to be used at decoding the world and our selves.

This is what I think we need to be going for.

thanks and peace.

Natu

Peace mquran.

Correct me if I'm wrong, do you believe in the one word one definition method, but you also assert that the same definition canbe applied in different ways in different verses of the Quran? This make more sense to me instead of trying to force the same 'definition' on all verses of the Quran. But the one thing I do not approve of in the totally changing the meaning of a word to suit previous knowledge. For example, I really like what people have do to define rasool and nabi, using the Quran.

Peace.
Natu on the line.

Wakas

peace be upon you Natu, all,

I hate to break it to you but I'm afraid Aidid Safar's translation, like ALL others, will contain good points as well as bad points. Some of the errors in his translation/understanding have been pointed out several times. Please see the following thread for some examples
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=840

Without going further than the first few signs/verses (ayatin) of his translation, I would comment on the following

rahman = gracious? ? see 1945 or this article
AAalameena = plural ~ beings/creations, see 4432, 26165
yawmi al ddeeni = "the day of the order", I understand why he chose this. Its a power-relation, I would have said its closer to "obligation" however.
If he's going for one word = one definition, then he messed up straight away with mustaqeema = "observant" (16) & muttaqeena = "observant" (22). They are from different roots, QWM & TQW respectively. Unless he means two different words can have the same meaning as long as its one meaning for each, but then why would the reading use two different words that mean the exact same thing?
salat = singular, thus it should be "commitment" NOT "commitments". Each has a different meaning.

A simple word of advice would be to verify what you read, its a slower process but I can guarantee you, its much more fruitful.

Wakas

references used for this post
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/Quran_study_tools.htm
http//www.openburhan.com/index.html

Natu

Peace Wakas and all

I understand your concerns wakas, that I'll start following Aidid Safar. I appreciate your help, but when I read aidid's translation of 11 I realised that he has made a mistranslation already, becuasde I had previously read an article on quran-islam.org. The reason I am more comfortable with Aidid's literature is that I have read and understood many criticisms made of it. Initially I thought, well, he's alone by the looks of other peoples views, but thats shouldn't mean that he is wrong. I looked into it and I now believe I have found greater truths in his translation that perhaps in some others. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying his translation is right, (its just daft to say that about any translation in fact), its just that I approve of Aidid's approach becuase he initiated the defining of words using the quran itself, much like Rashad Khalifah made some kind of formal initiation of 'God alone' (although there were ahl-al-quranb people before). The reason I am pleased with what this guy is doing is because when I first found the real islam, I was tending to believe anyone who brought out a verse from the Quran, and I relied on them becuase I was a non-arab, but now I have access to dictionaries and translations (still looking to get lexicon), and I am more independant in my research. So don't be under the impression that I am taking 'Aidid Safar' as the truth, I wouldn't take anyone as the truth, except God, who is the one that inspires the truth to me when I look for it.

Wakas - have a read of my first post at http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3141

Peace.
Natu on the line.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Wakas, Natu,

Wakas, good to see you brother. Have u recieved 'coherence in the quran' yet ?

Natu, Aidid may be alone in terms of PUBLICATION, but he's certainly not alone in terms of general direction. Do learn the language , brother. Trust me, it will bring a lot of positive effects because then, you can check for yourself.

thanks and peace.

Wakas

peace be upon you mq,

No, I haven't received CIQ yet, will you stop asking me that! wink Even if I do, I most likely wont be able to read it for a while anyway, so you'll have to hold out a little longer lol
On a positive note, I am currently getting my mind blown by my study of al bayt, which began in part because of our conversation ages ago in which you discussed 7128 with me. I'm going to write an article on it, unless The God wills otherwise.

Wakas

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Wakas,

No, I haven't received CIQ yet, will you stop asking me that! Even if I do, I most likely wont be able to read it for a while anyway, so you'll have to hold out a little longer
On a positive note, I am currently getting my mind blown by my study of al bayt, which began in part because of our conversation ages ago in which you discussed 7128 with me. I'm going to write an article on it, unless The God wills otherwise.

Sorry about that, big guy ) Just anxious to hear you sing its praises, heheh.

Ah, please do write on al-bait. So far, its just Ayman's work and Aidid's work. I'm eager to see some stuff. Keep me posted !

Natu

Peace.

I've bin wanting to learn quranic arabic for a while now, even before I went Quran alone, but websites don't teach you much apart from 'hello', and 'Could I have a sandwich please'.

I just wanna get the hang of sentence structure, so then I can use dictionaries and lexicons for independant use. Any suggesstions on how I can learn arabic sentence structure?

Peace.
Natu on the line.