What is Al-Kauthar?
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Mazhar, do you agree there is "Inna" at the start of the verse or not? Let us decide this basic fact first.
I correctly said you are most of the time mindless. I agreed what you said about Inna. Its Noun you mentioned Na. Verbal sentence is its predicate. Last word is the object of verb NOT the noun of Inna. Otherwise what is Na the pronoun in the sentence?
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This cannot make sense, how can Allah give Muhammad a god? kauthar comes from katheer, plenty, even the gist of the sura is about providing.
- Muhammad is not even mentioned in that verse. Musa met al khidr.
- Al Khidr is not a God. He was human.
The worship of al khidr turned into a form of polytheism when they started worshipping al khidr as a God himself. This verse clearly states, he was nothing but a creation of God. It has a double meaning too God explains he is the one having giving them the arts and crafts (technology).
@Mazhar and bkanwar2 all your arab linguistics won't get you anywhere the word is proper name and an aramaic loanword.
You can't brush this away as a fairy tale. The references to the helper god kothar are countless in western semitic inscriptions. In fact the burden is upon you to prove this is not referring to that same k-th-r cult worship.
Peace
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- Muhammad is not even mentioned in that verse. Musa met al khidr.
- Al Khidr is not a God. He was human.
The worship of al khidr turned into a form of polytheism when they started worshipping al khidr as a God himself. This verse clearly states, he was nothing but a creation of God. It has a double meaning too God explains he is the one having giving them the arts and crafts (technology).
@Mazhar and bkanwar2 all your arab linguistics won't get you anywhere the word is proper name and an aramaic loanword.
Peace
Peace Bro,
you have a very strange way of reading Arabic, besides the Quran was revealed to Muhammad, each surah is independent, if Allah refers to a man that was not introduced in the surah it can only be the recipient of the revelation, i.e. Muhammad (P).
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You are missing the true meaning. Saying we gave you al-khidr is equal to saying "we are the one who gave you crafts & arts/technology".
This rise of technology was attributed to kothar/al-khidr. God corrects this to be his gift not al-khidrs. He was human. The person being adressed is the reader, not muhammad or musa. But musa did meet al khidr.
It's similar to the cult of Alexander the great who was also by some worshipped as a half-god. Al khidr has more meaning to it as he is equal to ptah in Egypt religion, and attributed to be the first poet, smith, etc.
God gifted these skills to al kihdr because he was one in total submission aka muslim.
Peace
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The reason you won't find any arab traditional explanations of the word is because it has been deliberately obscured. First of all kothar is not an arab God. He is a canaanite one. Identifying k-th-r correctly would have exposed their lies about the arab nomadic geolocation of Quran. Which is in fact canaanite.
Secondly, some have the tendency to misunderstand the verse and think it's an excuse to worship k-th-r. QED by theNabster. The opposite is in fact true.
Peace
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God gifted these skills to al kihdr because he was one in total submission aka muslim.
Peace
Peace
Is Arabic your first language?
When Allah addresses the reader, it is usually as those who have believed, in the plural, or O you Mankind, or bani Adam, bani Israeel, or qaum 3ad, thamud, etc.
There is not a single verse in the Quran I am aware of, where an impersonal reader is addressed.
The Prophet is asked to read it, as the first Sura Iqra'a starts with Read.
Read it to the would be Muslims / Believers.
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Arab is not my first language. But I don't see what you are disputing. Al-Khautar is literally mentioned in thousands of canaanite inscriptions worshipping him as a God. Please bring some proof it is referring to something else.
The aramaic roots of k-th-r all well established. I'm not making this up. I'm truly surprised you are even unaware of this explicit, literal reference to al-kothar. Regardless of who's being addressed.
I do feel however Quran is addressing only the messenger when explicitly mentioned, addressed. If you don't feel adressed by reading Quran, why on earth are you reading it?!
Peace
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I correctly said you are most of the time mindless. I agreed what you said about Inna. Its Noun you mentioned Na. Verbal sentence is its predicate. Last word is the object of verb NOT the noun of Inna. Otherwise what is Na the pronoun in the sentence?
In your zeal of proving others wrong you just start nit picking. It is not "noun of Inna", its Inna's noun. I am sure you know this much from rest of the explanation. You just can't accept that your held beliefs could be wrong.
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Arab is not my first language. But I don't see what you are disputing. Al-Khautar is literally mentioned in thousands of canaanite inscriptions worshipping him as a God. Please bring some proof it is referring to something else.
The aramaic roots of k-th-r all well established. I'm not making this up. I'm truly surprised you are even unaware of this explicit, literal reference to al-kothar. Regardless of who's being addressed.
I do feel however Quran is addressing only the messenger when explicitly mentioned, addressed. If you don't feel adressed by reading Quran, why on earth are you reading it?!
Peace
Sorry I disagree, you are incorrect, as wrong as Bukhari who claimed Al Kauthar was a river in Paradise for Muhammad...
and the Quran addresses Muhammad all along, unless otherwise stipulated, then the Reader needs to identify as Muhammad when he (or with modulation she) practices.
Who do you think is addressed in the numerous places where Allah says Kul, i.e. Say?
Peace
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Sorry I disagree, you are incorrect, as wrong as Bukhari who claimed Al Kauthar was a river in Paradise for Muhammad...
and the Quran addresses Muhammad all along, unless otherwise stipulated, then the Reader needs to identify as Muhammad when he (or with modulation she) practices.
Who do you think is addressed in the numerous places where Allah says Kul, i.e. Say?
Peace
Then I am wrong together with 98% of the western scholars who don't abide to tradition. But feel free to consider archaeological evidence equal to hadith. You have a very weird definition of "messenger". When I use any kind of messenger I'm always on the receiving end.
This thread is going off-topic by debating who is being addressed. For those interested in a linguistically sound and archaelogically backed up identification they can find it in my posts.
Peace
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Then I am wrong together with 98% of the western scholars who don't abide to tradition. But feel free to consider archaeological evidence equal to hadith.
Peace
I am not using Hadith, I am using basic semantics and language skills of an Arabic native speaker. I started reading the Quran in Arabic well before I was exposed to Hadiths about 20 years later...
Peace
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Modern arabic has little in common with quranic arabic. Many of the words in modern arab semantics are proof of the huge impact these hadith had on the entire arab culture. Besides this, it is clearly a proper name.
I was never exposed to any hadith or indoctrination. When I try to identify words in Quran, I use arab lexicons but ALWAYS check the etymology which often leads me to aramaic. But this is besides the point. k-th-r's etymology is aramaic. Used as a proper name in Quran.
Peace
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Modern arabic has little in common with quranic arabic. Many of the words in modern arab semantics are proof of the huge impact these hadith had on the entire arab culture. Besides this, it is clearly a proper name.
I was never exposed to any hadith or indoctrination. When I try to identify words in Quran, I use arab lexicons but ALWAYS check the etymology which often leads me to aramaic. But this is besides the point. k-th-r's etymology is aramaic. Used as a proper name in Quran.
Peace
Peace
Let's stop here.
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In your zeal of proving others wrong you just start nit picking. It is not "noun of Inna", its Inna's noun. I am sure you know this much from rest of the explanation. You just can't accept that your held beliefs could be wrong.
Sorry I missed your previous post about agreeing. Let us not worry for a moment about technical syntactical lebelling of the sentence.
Please show me based upon root and measure/weight/wazan. How traditionalist are justified in its contruct that they claim it to be as a definite noun?
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Peace
Let's stop here.
I think your translation of abundance is alright by itself. Whether you identify Al-Kauthar as the canaanite Kothar-wa-Khasis or as abundance, the meaning hardly changes. We live in abundance today because of those early technological skills such as medicine, construction, metallurgy etc. The origins of those skills bringing abundance were once attributed to a specific god in the canaanite mythological pantheon, who was in turn deified.
Meanwhile bkanwar2 is still blindly trying to pull the quranic arabic word apart and trying to find meaning. This while he is looking at a linguistically proven borrowed word.
Peace
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I think your translation of abundance is alright by itself. Whether you identify Al-Kauthar as the canaanite Kothar-wa-Khasis or as abundance, the meaning hardly changes. We live in abundance today because of those early technological skills such as medicine, construction, metallurgy etc. The origins of those skills bringing abundance were once attributed to a specific god in the canaanite mythological pantheon, who was in turn deified.
Meanwhile bkanwar2 is still blindly trying to pull the quranic arabic word apart and trying to find meaning. This while he is looking at a linguistically proven borrowed word.
Peace
Peace
There is some persistent folklore about Khidr among Arabs, my mother for instance believed he is still alive and roaming the Earth.
Some believe he is an Angel, not human... etc.
I know of mythological names who then got co-opted as day to day words, so after all you might be right, but I still believe that for our purpose, it means abundance, otherwise Allah would have been more specific.
I am very weary about mythologies, as they are associated deeply with idolatry.
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Peace
There is some persistent folklore about Khidr among Arabs, my mother for instance believed he is still alive and roaming the Earth.
Some believe he is an Angel, not human... etc.
I know of mythological names who then got co-opted as day to day words, so after all you might be right, but I still believe that for our purpose, it means abundance, otherwise Allah would have been more specific.
I am very weary about mythologies, as they are associated deeply with idolatry.
Aye! This is why the verse in Quran is still very relevant. I am aware of this superstitious belief about al kihdr. Since Quran mentions him, I think he was a real person. A person from flesh and blood though (human/given by Allah), surrounded by much mystery.
I disagree Quran would need to be more specific for it to be a personal name. The personal name is mentioned explicitly. One should ponder whether mystery figures in Quran which don't reveal much more specifics are not placed in it as a catalyst to distinct the idolaters from those who submit. It's not the only personal name inside Quran with little more details. I think Quran achieves its goal as a catalyst in this sense perfectly/superefficient. I do understand your point of view but I think if you do some minor research on the true historical evidence of Kothar, removed from the folklore, it will shed much light on a form of idolatry that is timeless.
Peace
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I forgot another plausible thesis I know of. This one interpretes Al-Kauthar as a placename, specifically Caphtor. As such it relates back to the story of Musa and is referring to him being given this land.
See Amos 97, Deut 223
Peace
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I forgot another plausible thesis I know of. This one interpretes Al-Kauthar as a placename, specifically Caphtor. As such it relates back to the story of Musa and is referring to him being given this land.
See Amos 97, Deut 223
Peace
Dude, I have enough on my plate, it has never been an issue for me to worship other than Allah, especially deities I never heard of until you mention them, so I am happy to settle with abundance...
Allat Mannat and Uzzah were clearly mentioned for the contemporary Arabs though, so I am aware of that part, enough for me
Peace