Ramadhan = ?
-
-
Yeah, instead of wasting your time chit-chatting with clueless bloggers like me
I generally choose what is more fun, so chit-chat it is!
-
It does still persist. September 22-23. This is when jews celebrate yom kippur this year. They fast for 25 hours.
Peace
Perhaps that's why @noshirk's findings are more accurate?
Ramadan fasting DAY on Sept 22-23rd?Peace
-
I generally choose what is more fun, so chit-chat it is!
Peace @FreedomStands
at risk of being blunt, rude, insensitive, nasty, malicious, etc.
do you enjoy a mental condition like me?
from the way you interact and write,
I conjecture in your case it could be Asperger's or ADHD...
yes? or worse?
-
Peace @FreedomStands
at risk of being blunt, rude, insensitive, nasty, malicious, etc.
do you enjoy a mental condition like me?
from the way you interact and write,
I conjecture in your case it could be Asperger's or ADHD...
yes? or worse?
Not that I know of! People who know me in person know me as socially skilled to the point of being dangerous in my ability to manipulate and control people, so perhaps another pop fiction diagnosis is more accurate for me. A really scary psychopath who helps worms and ants and little buggies and wants so many people to suffer horrifically for their criminal ways. Actually that sounds like Batman or something.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0dSn31EWU
-
Not that I know of! People who know me in person know me as socially skilled to the point of being dangerous in my ability to manipulate and control people, so perhaps another pop fiction diagnosis is more accurate for me. A really scary psychopath who helps worms and ants and little buggies and wants so many people to suffer horrifically for their criminal ways. Actually that sounds like Batman or something.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw0dSn31EWU
No, it sounds more like Dexter Morgan >
-
No, it sounds more like Dexter Morgan >D
Haha, I thought that too, and I'm glad you brought that up!
I am considering listing a bunch of mental issues symptoms and then describing in what areas I might qualify or why not.
I bet we've got some other cases on this website based on what I've seen.
Maybe we're all just narcissistic, which was taken off the US things but remains in Europe I think.
-
Haha, I thought that too, and I'm glad you brought that up!
I am considering listing a bunch of mental issues symptoms and then describing in what areas I might qualify or why not.
I bet we've got some other cases on this website based on what I've seen.
Maybe we're all just narcissistic, which was taken off the US things but remains in Europe I think.
Oh, you are from the USA, that figures /chuckle> land of crazies... ;D
-
@FS, the Arabic word ma3dudat refers to a small amount in Arabic between 3 and 10, ayaman ma3dudat, 3 to 10 days.
I wish you could elaborate. I for one tried Google Translate but the word it translated for ma3dudat is 'fixed', not few. Though originally, i started out fasting as the traditionalists, am starting to have second thought.
If ma3dudate mean few(3-10), then we shouldn't be fasting the whole month, 29 or 30 days can't be described as few days. And there is the problem of date. Am fully convinced that our Hijri lunar calendar is incorrect for dating events or rites.
-
Peace everyone,
Yes, it is that time of the year again )
1- Meaning of Ramadhan
. .
( ة.
( ط.
( ب
.
( ةWell, we have two possible meanings for ramadhan. One is the "scorching heat" and other is first cloud/rain after heat.
Ramadan in spetember fit with the second one.According to the above we only have one main meaning of ?ramadan? and its derivatives, which has to do with scorching heat. This is the thread that runs in all the meanings. On its own it means heat and when used with ?clouds or rain? it means hot ?clouds or rain? that come in late summer or early fall when the weather is still hot in Arabia. So in the case of ?sahab ramdy? or ?matar ramdy? it means ?hot clouds? or ?hot rain? similar to ?shahr ramadan? meaning ?scorching/hot full-moon?. The Quran talks about scorching full-moon and not hot rain/clouds. In all cases, this negates the winter solstice theory completely.
2- Ripes dates
If we read the passage in context, it talks about Maryam being asked to shake the palm tree to get ripe dates. Shaking the palm tree is not how you harvest dates (try shaking one with all your strength and see if you can move it an inch). Now imagine you are a pregnant woman giving labor. Dates will either fall to the ground by themselves or someone has to climb the palm tree or somehow reach to its top and harvest them. So the whole passage talks about a situation that is out of the ordinary.
if we consider the ripe indication of quran, we are more near december
and 9 month before, we are near equinox (leilatou el qadr) of march.The term ?qadr? is never associated with the sun in the quran. On the other hand, it is clearly associated with the moon
And the moon we have measured it in descending stages until it becomes like a curved sheath.
The word ?qadr? means measure and not equal and the verb ?qadrnah? means ?we measured it? not ?we made it equal?. The word ?manazil? (from nzl/ descend) describes ?descending stages?. So tying it all together, ?laylat alqadr? is the night where the god measures the moon in descending stages until it takes the shape of the crescent. Of course the moon can only descend in shape from the full-moon. So this is the night of full-moon and has absolutely nothing to do with the equinox.
Also, it is impossible to count a year according to 1712 based on the equinox. It has to be one of the solstices. We already established that the term ?ramadan? rules out the winter solstice. So we are only left with the summer solstice.
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
Hajj is collective. Hajj is a collective feast during 3 days.
.
.
.
so hajj occurs 4 times a year, around equinoxes and solstices. But only ramadhan is for individual saoum.So we agree that hagg means feast. It also takes place in known full-moons that are known to all people, not just those who believe in the great reading or who are member of a particular religion. This automatically indicates that the period of hagg/feast must be one where food is plentiful. This means it must be a harvest feast. Of course harvest of most fruits and vegetables is in the summer until early fall. There is no harvest in the winter solstice. Also, in the spring in Arabia there is only harvest of grains such as wheat and not much else. So all this certainly points to the four inviolable full-moons being the harvest full-moons (all cultures regardless of religion or beliefs know about the harvest moons), which are consecutive, three in the summer and the fourth and last one is in early fall. This also happens to be when hunting is restricted since there are now alternative food sources and livestock is plentiful. Also, this is when most young newly born wild animals are still dependent on their mothers. They start being self-dependent by the fall. This is why everywhere in the civilized world hunting season for wild game is started in the fall.
All in all, the evidence converges very nicely on shahr ramadan being the full-moon after the summer solstice. So I think this is the right direction, unless some drastic new evidence appears or the earth or moon is completely destroyed by an asteroid )
I posted a video in Arabic on the Quran4Peace facebook page, which summarizes this understanding
https//www.facebook.com/video.php?v=471577376343492
I miss you guys )
Peace and all best wishes to everyone,
Ayman
-
According to the above we only have one main meaning of ?ramadan? and its derivatives, which has to do with scorching heat. This is the thread that runs in all the meanings. On its own it means heat and when used with ?clouds or rain? it means hot ?clouds or rain? that come in late summer or early fall when the weather is still hot in Arabia. So in the case of ?sahab ramdy? or ?matar ramdy? it means ?hot clouds? or ?hot rain? similar to ?shahr ramadan? meaning ?scorching/hot full-moon?. The Quran talks about scorching full-moon and not hot rain/clouds. In all cases, this negates the winter solstice theory completely.
Peace ayman, miss you too )
2185 shr/cycle ramadan the one descended in it the Qur?an
Was doing research on kalala found this naration interesting...
Abu Talha reported 'Umar b. al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) delivered a sermon on Friday and made a mention of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and he also made a mention of Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) and then said I do not leave behind me any problem more difficult than that of Kalala. I did not refer to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) more repeatedly than in case of the problem of Kalala, and he (the Holy Prophet) never showed more annoyance to me than in regard to this problem, so much so that he struck my chest with his fingers and said 'Umar, does the verse revealed in summer season, at the end of Sura al-Nisa' not suffice you? Hadrat 'Umar (then) said If I live I would give such verdict about (Kalala) that everyone would be able to decide whether he reads the Qur'an or he does not.
-
Peace brother Noon )
Peace ayman, miss you too )
2185 shr/cycle ramadan the one descended in it the Qur?an
Was doing research on kalala found this naration interesting...
Abu Talha reported 'Umar b. al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) delivered a sermon on Friday and made a mention of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and he also made a mention of Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) and then said I do not leave behind me any problem more difficult than that of Kalala. I did not refer to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) more repeatedly than in case of the problem of Kalala, and he (the Holy Prophet) never showed more annoyance to me than in regard to this problem, so much so that he struck my chest with his fingers and said 'Umar, does the verse revealed in summer season, at the end of Sura al-Nisa' not suffice you? Hadrat 'Umar (then) said If I live I would give such verdict about (Kalala) that everyone would be able to decide whether he reads the Qur'an or he does not.
Although I wouldn't give much weight to the Hadith and I would need to see the Hadith in Arabic to see the exact word it uses for "summer season"
( ) (ص (ص ! ! .
Apparently the word that is erroneously translated as "summer season" is "sayf", which doesn't mean summer in classical Arabic. The Arabs had 6 seasons and not 4 like we do now. "Sayf" fell in late April to late June while the season "qyz" (what we call summer) fell from late June to late August.
Perhaps it is a minor distorted trace of the original practice. Similarly, it is Sunna to fast the three days around the full-moon. They call them the "white days" in Sunna. This could be a trace of an alternate understanding that the fast is marked by the full-moon and is for three days.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
-
Peace Ayman,
It's been a long time. Good to see you post )
I would agree and disagree with some of the things you said. Let me list them as points
- I can agree with the meaning ascribed to Ramadhan as "scorched/parched". I have seen an alternative, but the general use of the word seems to carry the day.
- I can agree that the parched/scorched period for the Middle East ranging between June 20 and September 22 (Summer solstice to Fall equinox when the rains hit the dry/hot earth).
- I can agree that the month begins with the full moon.
- I can agree that fasting is for 10 days (ayam madoodat) and that we must "complete the count".
- I don't agree that the meaning of "shahr" is "full moon" as that creates a distortion in a number of verses which speak of the period required as a full cycles and not just the 10 days of the full moon cycle.
- I don't agree that Maryam encountered a miraculous palm tree as dates hang from trees less than 1 meter and shaking such palm tree would allow its ripened dates to fall.
- I don't agree that the full moon of the summer solstice is the correct fast due to"
a) the valid point noshirk mentioned of "qadr/measure" being a description of the night of Ramadhan, and that the Equinox is the only month during the June-September period where the day and night, if they are measured, would be equal;
b) the fast of summer creates hardship (contrary to what Go tells us) as people who would work in the open would suffer;
c) the summer solstice has the longest day of the year (northern hemisphere) which would take the fast to extreme hours in some habitable regions.
Regards,
-
peace bro ayman,
Nice to see you post.
And the moon we have measured it in descending stages until it becomes like a curved sheath.
The word "becomes" seems to rather mean "repeats/returns" based on cross-reference
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Ewd#(36395)
But this does not necessarily disprove your view I dont think. I haven't studied the calendar system in detail.Thanks for the info on "white days" of fasting in Traditional Islam. I was unaware of that.
-
c) the summer solstice has the longest day of the year (northern hemisphere) which would take the fast to extreme hours in some habitable regions.
Yes
But not just extreme hours. It simply won't work due to that dusk light directly merges into dawn light without any dark time period in between. And this is not in some far, remote northern locations. No, this is the case in the entire Scandinavia, and any place equally much north/south.
In the middle of the summer, the traditional fasting timings simply DO NOT WORK. Something is WRONG with the traditional system. People in Scandinavia solves it by following some other location, like Saudi, but this is just a compromise to hide the fact that the sky light system for fasting simply doesn't work. Just a simple observation of the sky immediately reveals the flaw of the traditional system.
Kind regards and wishes of Peace
-
Yes
But not just extreme hours. It simply won't work due to that dusk light directly merges into dawn light without any dark time period in between. And this is not in some far, remote northern locations. No, this is the case in the entire Scandinavia, and any place equally much north/south.
In the middle of the summer, the traditional fasting timings simply DO NOT WORK. Something is WRONG with the traditional system. People in Scandinavia solves it by following some other location, like Saudi, but this is just a compromise to hide the fact that the sky light system for fasting simply doesn't work. Just a simple observation of the sky immediately reveals the flaw of the traditional system.
Kind regards and wishes of Peace
If you find it truly impossible, do less, but do you not see in the world that things are not fair and differences exist in the plights of people? Some are poor, some are rich, some are healthy, some are sick. Do what you can do.
I'm in the North and I fast for a long time, even longer than the before sunrise and after sunset thing, and I exercise extensively while doing it too.
I worship Odin. Do you worship relaxation? Is the purpose of fasting some sort of practice of meditating on how easy going everything is, a pleasure festival? What are you learning from Ramadan? Nothing at all?
The lesson of Ramadan, among many other things, is the plight of creatures in need, appreciation for even the pitiful goodness we might receive in life when we are deprived of even that. Suffering and Compassion.
You won't fast perhaps, but the joke is, God has taken it away from some people.
Perhaps God has favored those who neither pray, nor fast, nor give in charity, nor struggle to do good and sit back in their homes doing nothing at all but playing at idle things. Perhaps those are the ones who are triumphant in this life and the next, given ease here and given ease later.
Perhaps those who struggle, who give in charity, who pray ardently and frequently, who fast and practice discipline, are just fools wasting their time completely, and that is especially so if they aren't comprehending any of it.
So leave off the prayer, the fasting, the charity, and whatever else, if you don't know what it is good for, find no benefit in it, and are sufficiently blessed to live like those others do.
Yet, what is time, that it is so important for a few moments which are "life" to be spent in hedonism?
-
If you find it truly impossible, do less, but do you not see in the world that things are not fair and differences exist in the plights of people? Some are poor, some are rich, some are healthy, some are sick. Do what you can do.
Peace
sometimes fairness weighs up on me, as I could ask, why do I have symptoms, and am in pain? is there a purpose, reason for that for me?
then there are medicines, coping strategies, that I can use to alleviate my pain, symptoms, and the relief that death might liberate me when it is time to move on, if I am among those who are redeemed
-
If you find it truly impossible, do less, but do you not see in the world that things are not fair and differences exist in the plights of people? Some are poor, some are rich, some are healthy, some are sick. Do what you can do.
I'm in the North and I fast for a long time, even longer than the before sunrise and after sunset thing, and I exercise extensively while doing it too.
I worship Odin. Do you worship relaxation? Is the purpose of fasting some sort of practice of meditating on how easy going everything is, a pleasure festival? What are you learning from Ramadan? Nothing at all?
The lesson of Ramadan, among many other things, is the plight of creatures in need, appreciation for even the pitiful goodness we might receive in life when we are deprived of even that. Suffering and Compassion.
You won't fast perhaps, but the joke is, God has taken it away from some people.
Perhaps God has favored those who neither pray, nor fast, nor give in charity, nor struggle to do good and sit back in their homes doing nothing at all but playing at idle things. Perhaps those are the ones who are triumphant in this life and the next, given ease here and given ease later.
Perhaps those who struggle, who give in charity, who pray ardently and frequently, who fast and practice discipline, are just fools wasting their time completely, and that is especially so if they aren't comprehending any of it.
So leave off the prayer, the fasting, the charity, and whatever else, if you don't know what it is good for, find no benefit in it, and are sufficiently blessed to live like those others do.
Yet, what is time, that it is so important for a few moments which are "life" to be spent in hedonism?
???????
What??Who's finding what impossible? Is it something subjective we are talking about here??????
Or maybe I misunderstood something.I was talking about that we (as per the traditional understanding of the Quran) could eat n drink till the s.c. white thread becomes visible against the black one, which is interpreted as we can eat n drink up and until the light of dawn appears. That is, we can eat n drink as long as the light of dawn has not yet appeared. The point was that in northern areas, you'd have to abstain from food and water for entire weeks in a row, since there is to period during the night in which there is darkness (=absence of dusk and dawn twilight).
I was referring to that the traditional interpretation of the Quran doesn't match with nature.
What were you referring to?If I've misunderstood something, please point it out.
-
It's been a long time. Good to see you post )
I would agree and disagree with some of the things you said. Let me list them as points- I can agree with the meaning ascribed to Ramadhan as "scorched/parched". I have seen an alternative, but the general use of the word seems to carry the day.
- I can agree that the parched/scorched period for the Middle East ranging between June 20 and September 22 (Summer solstice to Fall equinox when the rains hit the dry/hot earth).
- I can agree that the month begins with the full moon.
- I can agree that fasting is for 10 days (ayam madoodat) and that we must "complete the count".
- I don't agree that the meaning of "shahr" is "full moon" as that creates a distortion in a number of verses which speak of the period required as a full cycles and not just the 10 days of the full moon cycle.
- I don't agree that Maryam encountered a miraculous palm tree as dates hang from trees less than 1 meter and shaking such palm tree would allow its ripened dates to fall.
- I don't agree that the full moon of the summer solstice is the correct fast due to"
a) the valid point noshirk mentioned of "qadr/measure" being a description of the night of Ramadhan, and that the Equinox is the only month during the June-September period where the day and night, if they are measured, would be equal;
b) the fast of summer creates hardship (contrary to what Go tells us) as people who would work in the open would suffer;
c) the summer solstice has the longest day of the year (northern hemisphere) which would take the fast to extreme hours in some habitable regions.
Thanks my dear brother Layth, it is good to be posting ). I browse the forum every few weeks but the admin of the FB page with its 2.7 million members has taken away most of the time I have available for posting.
The full-moon is not a 10 day cycle. It is just a marker. So when we hear in the great reading about the fasting of two consecutive full-moons, then this is the period marked by two full-moons, which is 29-30 days. You can never count 12 "29-30 day cycles" in a year. The only way to count 12 is if "shahr" means full-moon, which is confirmed by Classical Arabic dictionary.
Had the palm tree been hanging less than 1 meter, then why would one need to shake it to get the ripened dates? One can just reach and grab them. The size and height of the palm tree is not known. At least the palm trees that I have seen are big and even small ones, which are maybe just 3 meters high their thick trunks cannot be easily shaken even by a strong man, let alone a woman in labor. Normally, when the dates are ripe, you can find a few already fallen next to the palm tree and no need to shake to begin with. I traveled to Sharm El Sheikh in July and the hotel had palm trees and their dark yellow dates were littering the ground. Again, this whole thing about the palm tree is highly speculative and part of a miraculous context (virgin birth) with too many unknowns to make a determination about the timing.
As you know, the word "qadr" means measure and does not mean equal. There is a big difference between measure and equal. Therefore, there is no evidence for the equinox based on the word "qadr". On the other hand, we clearly hear about qadr/measure in relation to the full-moon, which you agree is the start of the cycle
And the moon we have measured it in descending stages until it becomes/returns as an old curved sheath (crescent shape)
Interestingly, the period from full-moon, when the measure of the "manazil" (descending stages) starts, until the crescent shape is 10 days. So this is in line with what you agreed to be the 10 days of hagg/feast and fasting.
It is a fact that the years cannot be counted using only day/night as described in 1712 based on the equinox, which would only count half a year. The years can only be counted based on 1712 using one of the solstices. As you correctly said, the meaning of "ramadan" points to the period after the summer solstice.
As far as hardship is concerned, had the fast been easy then there wouldn't have been the need to state that those who can do it with difficulty can feed a poor person instead. How many other things in the great reading are we told that they are so hard as to need to substitute? Obviously, fasting must be hard. If you do work in the open or live in northern elevations, you should feed the poor instead. The idea that fasting is obligatory comes from the Sunni tradition where we were constantly brainwashed that people who don't fast will go to hell. There is nothing in the great reading that says we must fast. It is better for us to fast if we can do it without difficulty but there is no harm or punishment if we don't fast. In fact, the main objective is not fasting but it is being guided by the great reading. The timing of the fast is tied to the timing of the great reading as a guidance descending and at the end of the passage we are told to magnify the god for what he has guided us. So being guided and knowing the timing based on the guidance from the god is far more important than fasting. If one fasts for 30 days according to the arbitrary Hijri calendar whether it is during the longest day hours or when it had shifted and is during the easiest time of the year in the winter is that person guided? Does their fast really matter or is it worthless? Let's focus on the right thing.
Peace and best regards,
Ayman
