Freedom
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It is great to have people get rid of hadeeths and such but it seems that, in my opinion some muslims here are missing the point. They abhor to be part of religions and most of them are belonging to the worst religion of all STATISM. It is the biggest evil that is enslaving the world. In my opinion the purpose of the Quran is to FREE the mankind from worshiping false idols and from making each other gods.
I think this is the essence of the Quran - the freedom vs. slavery (the ones who want to control - steal/tax, regulate, control, kill and avoid the consequences by having someone else do it for them)).
Please watch
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o3zDDuMzho
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6uVV2Dcqt0Thanks and peace.
P.S. I don't want to argue. I am posting this just that someone might think about it. If you believ that stealing and killing is wrong than there is no way you can justify any kind of state if you want to be consistent. -
I like what you wrote above, @ mmmm.
Thank you very much for sharing your thought on this issue.
I think we have similar understanding about this,
even though I'm still not sure if Statism is the most dangerous religion
(perhaps there is other "religion" which is more danger),
but for me, Statism is indeed wrong and against the Qur'an,
and maybe it can be categorized as religion.
Peace.
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Tell me when this thread becomes about me.
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Thank you very much for the videos brother. Honestly speaking, I was suffering from depression after witnessing my classmates saying "get rid of religions' and people's intervention from laws, government knows what to do". Perhaps, they were saying this to show how progressive they were. What they didn't notice was that they were taking government as just another God.
I am in full agreement with you. Even Quran agrees with you.
If you disbelieve - indeed, Allah is Free from need of you. And He does not approve for His servants disbelief. And if you are grateful, He approves it for you; and no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you about what you used to do. Indeed, He is Knowing of that within the breasts.397I think we have similar understanding about this,
even though I'm still not sure if Statism is the most dangerous religion
I would say moderate statism is okay to keep the country running but if it is turned radical things go haywire. Any form of system can be used to make it happen though. I don't see much difference between our Republicans and Saudi mullas except that it is risky for Republicans to go public after taking bs decisions and when a shoe is thrown at one, it is shown several times by channels all around the world for weeks D
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Thanks for sharing your thought, reel.
Thank you very much for the videos brother. Honestly speaking, I was suffering from depression after witnessing my classmates saying "get rid of religions' and people's intervention from laws, government knows what to do". Perhaps, they were saying this to show how progressive they were. What they didn't notice was that they were taking government as just another God.
Hmm... yeah, what make me rather worry is... (I wonder) whether it is shirk if we think that we need government to protect us from harm (e.g. terrorist attacks, crimes, riots, etc) and/or if we think that we need government to make available our basic daily needs (e.g. safe foods, electricity, water, etc)... because that sound as if we rely on government as our 'protector' and 'sustainer'.
I would say moderate statism is okay to keep the country running but if it is turned radical things go haywire. Any form of system can be used to make it happen though.
I like the idea about voluntary governance and voluntary taxation.
I think I agree to have group of people (bureaucrats) who create social programs for our benefit,
and if the programs truly for our benefit then they should be voluntary, not mandatory.
I don't see much difference between our Republicans and Saudi mullas except that it is risky for Republicans to go public after taking bs decisions and when a shoe is thrown at one, it is shown several times by channels all around the world for weeks
That one was popular scene. ;D
Peace.
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Alhamdulillah I am so glad to see similar minded people...if you are interested here are, in my opinion, really powerful videos for you to watch
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1pkJaNbzLU
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ezz0AeC9vc
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=THs8Yx1BXcw
Peace.
The videos are really long but I think are worth watching with good information. -
Thanks for sharing your thought, reel.
Hmm... yeah, what make me rather worry is... (I wonder) whether it is shirk if we think that we need government to protect us from harm (e.g. terrorist attacks, crimes, riots, etc) and/or if we think that we need government to make available our basic daily needs (e.g. safe foods, electricity, water, etc)... because that sound as if we rely on government as our 'protector' and 'sustainer'.
That is a very smart way to describe how people see government D
I like the idea about voluntary governance and voluntary taxation.
I think I agree to have group of people (bureaucrats) who create social programs for our benefit,
and if the programs truly for our benefit then they should be voluntary, not mandatory.
That one was popular scene. ;D
Peace.
I never heard about voluntary governance and voluntary taxation. I will look into it. The only thing I studied about is public management according to which citizens themselves take care of the problems and government woks as the facilitator. In the beginning I thought it was a great idea, but then it came to mind that people not familiar with government theories will make mistake.
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Peace brother, and I'm sister by the way )
I understand there are many ayats that are talking about the "mulk" but how I understand it is that the mulk given by Allah is different than how we understad the government (or king or any other ruler in history). I'm sorry I'm not that eloquent since English is not my first language.
In my opinion it comes naturaly - "mulk" from Allah makes sense (just like in the case of the 2247 where first people asked for the leader so it was voluntary and secondly there was very good reason since he had the knowledge and the strenght needed to lead them - like for example if I went on a roadtrip and would want someone to lead me it would be someone familiar with the map)
For example parents have "mulk" over their children, entrepreneur over his workers (in the sense that if he had the knowledge, invested and risked his property to start a company - people naturaly trust he can run the business but his "mulk" is only under that circumstances he cannot tell poeple what they can or cannot do in thir own houses or similar). So everyone has their own "mulk" in some areas but noone can force his "mulk" upon another.
Government as we know it today is forceful, unjust, unsustainable (every country in the world is in debt - it borrows money in the name of unborn children so they can devour as much as they can while in the power) - they don't bring real world values but they invent things so people would think they are necesary under the pretense that they regulate or make things better (2103) and they eat other people's wealth unjustly through stealing (tax) 429Peace.
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I understand there are many ayats that are talking about the "mulk" but how I understand it is that the mulk given by Allah is different than how we understad the government (or king or any other ruler in history). I'm sorry I'm not that eloquent since English is not my first language.
In my opinion it comes naturaly - "mulk" from Allah makes sense (just like in the case of the 2247 where first people asked for the leader so it was voluntary and secondly there was very good reason since he had the knowledge and the strenght needed to lead them - like for example if I went on a roadtrip and would want someone to lead me it would be someone familiar with the map)
For example parents have "mulk" over their children, entrepreneur over his workers (in the sense that if he had the knowledge, invested and risked his property to start a company - people naturaly trust he can run the business but his "mulk" is only under that circumstances he cannot tell poeple what they can or cannot do in thir own houses or similar). So everyone has their own "mulk" in some areas but noone can force his "mulk" upon another.
Government as we know it today is forceful, unjust, unsustainable (every country in the world is in debt - it borrows money in the name of unborn children so they can devour as much as they can while in the power) - they don't bring real world values but they invent things so people would think they are necesary under the pretense that they regulate or make things better (2103) and they eat other people's wealth unjustly through stealing (tax) 429Very well said, sister!
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Government as we know it today is forceful, unjust, unsustainable (every country in the world is in debt - it borrows money in the name of unborn children so they can devour as much as they can while in the power) - they don't bring real world values but they invent things so people would think they are necesary under the pretense that they regulate or make things better (2103) and they eat other people's wealth unjustly through stealing (tax) 429
Peace.
Peace sister an everyone,
although in general I agree with your whole post, I do not command going to the extreme of seeing any form of central government as necessarily oppressive thiefs. Only some form of central governance allowed in the past and in present to make substantial investments in infrasturcture, public services and improve people's living standards. Total decentralization of powers and letting everyone be 'lord' of themselves form a vacuum of power and give a way to creating warring factions, warlords, and if not taxation, then pillage of people's resources. Look at Afghanistan and Somalia. These countries didn't have in the past much a tradition of having centralized governments and they will go on for the next decades in chaos, warring, warlordism and insecurity. Even though the central govt was somehow established in AF, it is very weak and I don't see it getting any better without international assistance.As for the taxation, I also disagree with seeing it ENTIRELY as a stealing. It is indeed stealing if such taxes go primarily to the coffers of corrupt leaders. But if you look at the statistics of OECD, the most developed countries have the highest tax to GDP ratio (around 35%) while the developing countries around 19%. In many developed countries, the taxes are used for ensuring provision of public services, such as health care (UK has healthcare entirely funded by insurance tax and its completely FREE for EVERYONE), free education and even higher education (many Scandinavian countries have state funded higher education), pension systems, roads, railways subsidies, water and sanitation, I could go on and on. Same with government regulations; they are here for a reason, to regulate relationships in the society and ensure some form of rule of law.
Now regarding few problems that you mentioned
- Corruption. Often central leadership in many countries is corrupt and will use the state budget to the advantage of their own. But again, this is not inherently due to the existence of government but due to the leaders who are behind it!
- Debt and unsustainabilty of the governments nowadays originates from unequal power relations between the governments and the banking and the corporate system that was deregulated around 1960s in accordance with the neoliberal agenda. This gave less power to the government to control finance system and in fact nowadays the governments (and us) are the slaves of the banks. Also, along this line, tax burden on the society is unequal with poor people paying large part of their incomes in he taxes (income tax and VAT going mainly on consumption) and ridiculously low taxes on wealthy people and corporations (again its inherent in the neoliberal agenda and convincing the governments to cut corporation taxes, give unsustainable exemptions for the companies and in general the fact that rich have more money to hire lawyers and accountants for tax evasion and tax avoidance purposes etc etd). As a result you see those corporations like Google, Apple or Sturbucks involved in tax evasion schemes and paying as ridiculous taxes as 2.5%. Many studies were done claiming that the money saved by the corporations in tax evasion schemes would be more than enough to balance the debt and cover current govt expenditure without any need for future debt!!
As you see, lots of issues we face nowadays derives from this unequal power that corporations and banks have over the governmnets and they can lobby politicians for their own agenda and interest. This is a really complicated net of dependencies. Do not just target the weak 'enemy' but search and see what is the real and serious threat. Do not look at the the effect but also at the causes of this all mysery in the world.
The problem is not government per se but corrupt government. The problem is not taxation per se but unjust taxation and unsustainable, unjust spending propelled by influences of the powerful few.
Stay blessed
M. -
There is nothing free provided by the government (somebody had to pay for it for you even if he doesn't want it, not to mention the quality of the services) and there is no possability of having justified theft it is imposible - if you steal you cannot justify it even if you give 90% of your stolen goods to the poor - you stole it it wasn't yours to give in the first place.
Peace.
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Make this thread about me if you know what is good for you!