Which Qoran ?
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Peace Novice,
For me content of a hadith is more important to verify with Qur'an.
True that, but shouldn't one verify what he is verifying with ?
Quran was completed in the life time of our prophet. There were many people who had memorized it in prophet's life time. The dots and vowels were placed for those who did/do not know Qur'anic language so they could recite it properly. The memorizers of Quran played their role of transmission until Qur'an was available on paper and was widely distributed. Now internet has made it even easy to save it from corruption.
Do you have any proof that the Quran was written down in the time of the prophet ? If so where are those copies ? Were they written with or without the dots and vowels ?
The classic Arabic dictionaries and the language of desert dwellers of Arabian Peninsula are good tools to understand Quran. Problem is when we cannot accept meanings of Qur'anic words and get lost in scholar's interpretations which most of the times are used to propagate certain political viewpoint aiming towards mind control.
Can you advise me on where to find those pre-islamic dictionaries ?
I search Qur'an to get guidance from God. In my opinion scale of deeds gets heavy when we apply Qur'an in our daily life.
I couldn't agree more
May God guide us all
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Peace Hannibal,
Peace all,
I have recently been documenting myself about the origins of Quran. How, when and by whom was it assembled ? Do we have the exact same copy of the word of God in our libraries ?
One of the docuements i've been througt is this one https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVER__C7lhE
It left me with some questions on which i would like to have your input- Since one of the reasons we do not trust Hadiths is the untrusted methods used back then, then why should be considering the method used for assembling the Quran trusted ?
They should not be trusted. I have often referred in my posts especially in the code 19 subforum, that the Uthmanic codex is by no means authorized by God. This has influenced the index of surahs and numbering of verses. I do believe however, even in Uthmanic codex format Quran is complete. The other codeces historically only varied in order of surahs.
- The oldest versions of Quran are composed of the basic letters (without the dots and vowels), how do we trust the way the Quran was dotted later ? http//www.irfi.org/articles/articles_401_450/oldest_quran_in_the_world.htm
The dots and ?vowels? can change a meaning to its complete opposite( for example the 302-3 )
Again dont trust them by default. The etymology of words - which you refer to in 3. - is most helpful in understanding the correct meaning of those root words who are often loaned/borrowed words linguistically.
- Since arabic is Arabic is a closely related to Aramaic, Hebrew, Ugaritic and Phoenician. Should we be looking into those dictionaries in order to understand the Quran ?
I know I use those dictionaries constantly in my quranic studies. I also use etymological sources to assist me in this. If you want some online tool, I can share with you. Just pm me.
- On a the scale of deeds that makes a muslim, where would you place the search into the meaning of Quran ?
If you place it high (as i expect most of you will do) does it mean that God has decreed that all non-arabic speaking converted must learn arabic ?
Understanding Quran is a barometer of how sound your concept of faith is. Imho native arab speakers are disadvantaged in understanding Quran. The modern arab language is contaminated with semantics drenched in hadith. Speaking arabic natively is like knowing how to ride a motorcycle the wrong way. If you want to understand Quran one has to unlearn a lot of hadith based semantic associations. Quranic arab can be learned quite easily, just by studying Quran and the aramaic/canaaite roots of the language. This language used to be the lingua franca of the middle east for good reason. It was understood by a majority regardless of what culture they belonged to. This aramaic/phoenician root has influenced pretty much every language currently existing. So there is always some basis of understanding to those willing to understand Quran.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras,
Would you please recommend me some works, websites of people who have done a study of the Quran meanings based on the origins of the Arabic language or with different way of using the vowels and dots ?
I agree with what you said about native arabic speaking folks like myself. It's a difficult process of reeducation.
However, i would not put "understanding the Quran" high on the scale of things a muslim has to do. Don't get me wrong, it is advised to study the Quran and try to understand its meaning but we will never truly reach as it is stated here 37
If we take into account the possibilities of 'tashkil' using different vowels and dots for every single verse in the Quran and then the possibilities of meaning using Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew, Ugaritic and Phoenician dictionaries it is obvious that il will take a lifetime of more to get to some kind of understanding of Quran. Most people don't have the luxury of time or even the mental abilities needed to do such a great work.
Since i believe that God is fair, I don't think that that tremendous work is a condition to have faith or to enter his heaven.May God guide us all
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Arabic Etymological Dictionary
https//www.academia.edu/4847281/Arabic_Etymological_Dictionary
A dictionary and glossary of the Kor-an, with copious grammatical references and explanations of the text
by Penrice, John, 1818-1892https//archive.org/details/adictionaryandg00penrgoog
Akkadian dictionary
http//www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/index_en.php
The Foreign Vocabulary Of The Quran
https//archive.org/details/foreignvocabular030753mbp
Aramaic words in the Quran
https//archive.org/details/diearamischenfr00fraegoog
Hebrew
http//www.hebrewatmilah.org/maskilon1/index.htm
Hebrew etymology
http//www.hebrewetymology.com/
Peace
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Peace brother FreedomStands,
The question i'm asking is more specific than the one asked in the other thread. I'm asking about people who have accepted the Quran as a the word of God. What to make of the following verses 2530, 4144, 4724, 5417 if one does not speak arabic ?
2530
Then the Messenger will say "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."
31 For so it is that against every prophet We have set up enemies from among those who are lost in sin yet none can guide and give succour as thy Sustainer does!What is the problem here? Some people take the Qur'an as foolish nonsense (just as you did?) and they do so regardless of the translation or language, while some people have found much guidance in it, in various languages that it has been translated into. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it seem to say it is absolutely necessary to know Arabic completely, but that people have varying degrees of skills and knowledge. In the Qur'an, the character were speaking in their own languages which were not Arabic, and God was translating their words into Arabic, right? Likewise, the message of the Qur'an can be transferred to other communities in other languages they know as best as possible so that they can learn quickly, as there is only so much time, and many people might not be able to learn Arabic but the message is far more important than the language it is in, in my opinion. That is not to say you shouldn't study Arabic, but doing so has even seemed to lead some people astray, so really it has nothing to do with Arabic, but with Allah guiding and misguiding people, even by the same book and language.
4144
And if We had appointed it a Lecture in a foreign tongue they would assuredly have said If only its verses were expounded (so that we might understand)? What! A foreign tongue and an Arab? - Say unto them (O Muhammad) For those who believe it is a guidance and a healing; and as for those who disbelieve, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness for them. Such are called to from afar.This seems to me to even be encouraging the point I'm making. You don't go with the message to people in a language they don't understand, the translation of the Qur'an has been an important miracle which has allowed the message to become even more widespread and accessible, testing and cursing or blessing whoever it is shown to.
4724
Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are there locks on the hearts?If you can't ponder of the recitation in Arabic, will you not ponder on the supposed meaning of the revelations in your own language? If you won't ponder that, then is it that there is a lock on your understanding? The answer is, yes (but hopefully not in your case, I just meant in general).
5417
And, certainly, We made the Quran easy as a Remembrance. Then, is there one who recalls?This seems to stand true even in other languages, as I often recall the verses and messages and themes of the Qur'an throughout the day or constantly and in the language I know.
So, pragmatically, the message would be slowed from reaching people or giving them excuses if Arabic was required. It is best to spread the message of One God and Do Good freely and in all languages, have a translation available, and for those who are willing and able, to study the language.
YET BEHOLD!!!!!!!!!!! THERE ARE THOSE WHO STUDY THE LANGUAGE IN ORDER TO TRY TO FIND DISCREPANCY, TO MISLEAD, AND TO ATTACK THE MESSAGE! THEY ARE THOSE WHOSE HEARTS ARE NOT SATISFIED WITH WHAT THEY READ AND INSTEAD WISH FOR IT TO SAY OTHER THINGS OR TO SAY THINGS THAT TURN PEOPLE AWAY FROM GOODNESS!
What is it those seekers are seeking, when the message has been made easy in their own languages even, and they wish to pry even further, what is it they seek to find or look past or is it that they wish some things were wiped away?
So, one should appreciate the gift of translation, but can, if they are so inclined for any reason good or bad, learn Classical Arabic and look carefully at etymologies, though it may be somewhat pointless if the translations are accepted already, but if it is a mission to try to change the Qur'an's meaning or find deeper meanings or whatever or make things up, then maybe learning Arabic becomes more important to those people.
I believe the Qur'an is a simple message that can be translated rather easily, and that its message is pretty clear cut and that those who want to dispute it have some other issue going on, and should maybe leave the Qur'an alone and write their own book if they find it so unsatisfactory.
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All diacritical markers are later additions, except for the madda (آ and the dots on letters, e.g. .
Many copies of Quran have alifs inserted too that are not original, e.g. in the real version does not have an alef and is . It was likely added to "help" pronunciation such as every other intruding addition.
It may not seem to make any difference but it does. is not an object but abstract and an adjective or rather an attribute.
Be well
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Arabic Etymological Dictionary
https//www.academia.edu/4847281/Arabic_Etymological_Dictionary
A dictionary and glossary of the Kor-an, with copious grammatical references and explanations of the text
by Penrice, John, 1818-1892https//archive.org/details/adictionaryandg00penrgoog
Akkadian dictionary
http//www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/index_en.php
The Foreign Vocabulary Of The Quran
https//archive.org/details/foreignvocabular030753mbp
Aramaic words in the Quran
https//archive.org/details/diearamischenfr00fraegoog
Hebrew
http//www.hebrewatmilah.org/maskilon1/index.htm
Hebrew etymology
http//www.hebrewetymology.com/
Peace
Thank you runninglikezebras peace
I'll check them soonMay God guide us all
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All diacritical markers are later additions, except for the madda (آ and the dots on letters, e.g. .
Many copies of Quran have alifs inserted too that are not original, e.g. in the real version does not have an alef and is . It was likely added to "help" pronunciation such as every other intruding addition.
It may not seem to make any difference but it does. is not an object but abstract and an adjective or rather an attribute.
Be well
Peace brother Man of Faith,
As you can see in the link i provided, the dots were absent from the oldest versions of Quran.
If you have different sources about the origins/evolution of Quran please share with us.May God guide us all
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peace,
Re 1)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601390.msg263468#msg263468Re 2)
How does one verify a truth? This is the same way in which to verify Quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597396.msg191658#msg191658Re 3)
http//www.quran434.com/study-method.htmlRe 4)
http//free-minds.org/mumins (perhaps one of the most important articles on this site) -
Peace Wakas,
Re 1)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601390.msg263468#msg263468Basically you're saying we should trust the methodology for assembeling the Quran simply because it is written in the Quran certifies its own authenticity and because the majority of muslims didn't question it ? ???
About the Quran being written down under the supervision of the Messenger Mohamed, is there any proof to this either from history or the Quran ?
Re 2)
How does one verify a truth? This is the same way in which to verify Quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597396.msg191658#msg191658I totally agree with your post; God's signs are everywhere.
Howerver I don't see how this responds to the issue of 'tashkil' = dots + vowelsRe 3)
http//www.quran434.com/study-method.htmlThanks for the link peace
Re 4)
http//free-minds.org/mumins (perhaps one of the most important articles on this site)That was an interesting read. It makes a lot of sense to me.
Thanks a lot for the recommandation.May God guide us all
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What do you think of this?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607600.msg370764#msg370764
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Hannibal,
Without the dots, e.g. it is nearly impossible to know which letter and pronunciation it is for even a skilled reader. I highly doubt it ever was so. There had to be some difference. I suppose in purely stylistic works they may have removed the dots on the letters, but that was merely for decoration.
But otherwise diacritics such as these are inventions , but clearly appears to be original since it gives emphasis on the language when the speaker wants to highlight on something in a context by holding on to the letter through pronunciation. Compare it to word stress.
I have seen fairly old texts that retain dots on letters.
Be well
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Hannibal,
Without the dots, e.g. it is nearly impossible to know which letter and pronunciation it is for even a skilled reader. I highly doubt it ever was so. There had to be some difference. I suppose in purely stylistic works they may have removed the dots on the letters, but that was merely for decoration.
But otherwise diacritics such as these are inventions , but clearly appears to be original since it gives emphasis on the language when the speaker wants to highlight on something in a context by holding on to the letter through pronunciation. Compare it to word stress.
I have seen fairly old texts that retain dots on letters.
Be well
Peace Man of Faith,
As an arabic speaker, i couldn't agree more about the difficulity of reading arabic text without the dots and the vowels.
This is the reason that pushes me to understand when the 'tashkil' of the Quran was made ?Take a look at what is considered the oldest version of Quran
http//www.masress.com/dostor/28861 (no tashkil)The page is in arabic but your can simply type an image search with 'oldest copy of Quran'.
May God guide us all
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Many ancient languages were said to be written without separations or indicators with all the letters next to each other.
maybesomethinglikethismakingitverydifficultforsomelaterpeopletoknowwhenthesentencesendornewwordsbeginandthingslikethatbutmaybeitisntsohardafterallonceyougetintothegrooveifyouhaveforexampleinthisentence
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Hi again,
Tashkil diacritics are added later to "help" pronunciation. There is no doubt about it. I also think they are not necessary if you know the rhythm of the Arabic language Quran uses. I find they may fool us into believing things not true about the ancient pronunciation as it was meant to be pronounced.
The only markers I consider native with the script are the normal dots on the letters and madda. Everything else including hamza are inventions to aid reading. And the interpreters also inserted alifs not native such as is written in the older manuscripts raising suspicion over how things really are.
Be well
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peace,
Re 1)
I am simply saying that based on the information we have, there are differences in terms of collection, so it is not right to equate collection of hadith with collection of quran. I believe there is some Quranic evidence for the writing of revelation, and this has been discussed many times on this forum, I recommend a forum search. I cannot recall the specific verses at the moment.Re 2) and 3)
You asked how do we know if the tashkeel is correct or not, and I implied that the approach will be similar to how one verifies any truth, and I provided some verse references which discuss how to read/study/verify Quran -
Hi again,
Tashkil diacritics are added later to "help" pronunciation. There is no doubt about it. I also think they are not necessary if you know the rhythm of the Arabic language Quran uses. I find they may fool us into believing things not true about the ancient pronunciation as it was meant to be pronounced.
The only markers I consider native with the script are the normal dots on the letters and madda. Everything else including hamza are inventions to aid reading. And the interpreters also inserted alifs not native such as is written in the older manuscripts raising suspicion over how things really are.
Be well
Brother Man of Faith,
What I was looking to confirm was the following
Do you approve that the first versions of Quran were 'tashkil'-less ?
if no, please share the evidence.
If yes, you have already agreed that tashkil changes a meaning to its opposite
example 302-3 might mean The Romans has been defeated and they will soon winn. OR The romain have won and they will soon been defeated.So tashkeel is not simply to help with pronunciation but it is key to understand the meaning !
So please, if you have evidence about when the Quran was received by Mohamed or how it was written down (with or without tashkeel) please share those evidences (no opinions) with us.May God guide us all
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peace,
Re 1)
I am simply saying that based on the information we have, there are differences in terms of collection, so it is not right to equate collection of hadith with collection of quran. I believe there is some Quranic evidence for the writing of revelation, and this has been discussed many times on this forum, I recommend a forum search. I cannot recall the specific verses at the moment.Re 2) and 3)
You asked how do we know if the tashkeel is correct or not, and I implied that the approach will be similar to how one verifies any truth, and I provided some verse references which discuss how to read/study/verify QuranBrother Wakas,
I was hoping you would tell me what made you believe that the methodology of assembling the Quran is better than the one with the Hadiths. I hope you understand that logically speaking, the fact that a text auto-certifies its authenticity, it is no certification.
However, I will look into the older posts on this Forum hoping to find the answer to a simple question how, when and by whom the Book that guides the lifes of all muslims was assembled ?
May God guide us all
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No. The earliest versions were entirely without tashkeel. And the markers that I mentioned in the post you did respond like this to is what I consider by what I have seen that the original Quran manuscript contained. Dots on letters and (madda) are the only original scriptural markers.
I know the tashkeel is also there to understand a word's meaning, but they can be misleading as well, particularly if they are not original because then one can put tashkeel on there and then claim the word has a particular meaning other than a different word with different tashkeels, while the original script was in both cases pointing towards one and the same word.
"As can be seen in the sample page from Sadeghi and Goudarzi's edition, the lower text has no vowel marks and rarely uses diacritical marks for distinguishing consonants. The lower text was erased and written over, but due to the presence of metals in the ink, the lower text has resurfaced, and now appears in a light brown color."
For example, in sura 2, verse 87, the lower text has wa-qaffayn 'al thrihi whereas the standard text has wa-qaffayn min ba'dihi (see the "Variants" section below for a selected list).
"The parchment upon which the lower codex is written has been radiocarbon dated with 99% accuracy to before 671 AD, with a 95.5% probability of being older than 661 AD and 75% probability from before 646 AD."
Source Wikipedia about the Sana'a manuscript
This explains something. It also shows that the original Quran was tampered with.
I am in the progress of reinterpreting Quran and delivering a translation matching the new interpretation and the difference in 287 would make a difference actually. I think personally that because the interpreters could not decipher the text in any logical way they rather than worked any further changed the text so they could make sense of the context. My reinterpretation project has showed that little was understood as intended of the original Arabic in Quran. I by knowing the change in 287 understand why they changed it because it says like this in the real interpretation "Moses was given the book/knowledge and one should follow in the footsteps of the messenger(s)". The traditional interpreters like to diminish that the original decree is still the same as the one of Moses so therefore they make it look like Muhammad abrogate everything from the past. But in fact the context speaks of following what Moses revealed. That is why I also propagate strongly against traditional Islam with all its practices because I know most is bogus and a fabrication by Persian clerics who have nothing to do with what Moses, Jesus etc taught.
In fact not even is interpreted as intended because it is stems from the root with an attached as prefix meaning to count/reckon/consider something as in considering something's value. Now if the Sana'a mentioned athira instead of ba'ad instead then it changed my translated meaning a little, but since ba'ad in truth does mean exactly as traditional interpreters make it so it is not very far off from athira, but it is still enough to make an impact.
Instead of reckon/count/consider then it says simply "follow" the messenger(s)", i.e. Moses' ancient decree is fully okay. To further corrupt so that it looks like this Islam sect is okay they have chosen to pervert Moses' practices by claiming that the Sustainer said to Moses "I am with you as long as you perform salat". The traditional interpreters make this into a ritual whereas the original script was intending to say "as long as you follow the guidance", i.e. follow what the Sustainer revealed to Moses, most importantly the traditional 'Ten Commandments' which shine with their absence in the traditional interpretation of Quran, EVEN if they are actually there (260 for your information, but you will not solve it unless you discard all bias and misconception).
All of this the interpreters aka Persian clerics did to fabricate a religion called Islam, fit their doctrine to what they liked, rally the Arab people against their own country Persia and also the Roman empire. The warfare interpretation of chapter 9 is false, it speaks of something other or less violent as in the traditional interpretation. The Quran's interpretation was tailored to rally people. The interpreters meant that the Romans and the Persians occupied their lands so they used religion as a weapon to rally people. These people were considered Mushrikeen and kafar. It shows that the traditional interpretation is made that the Christian sect of the Roman empire is demonized (with some right) and the Zoroastrian idolatry they were doing at that time was also demonized. The story of Mecca is a later invention, probably several hundred into the second millennium.
It is hard to swallow, but everyone calling themselves Muslim are actually following a fabricated religion. It was a systematic clergy with the same indoctrination as the Christian adversaries in Rome.
Brother Man of Faith,
What I was looking to confirm was the following
Do you approve that the first versions of Quran were 'tashkil'-less ?
if no, please share the evidence.
If yes, you have already agreed that tashkil changes a meaning to its opposite
example 302-3 might mean The Romans has been defeated and they will soon winn. OR The romain have won and they will soon been defeated.So tashkeel is not simply to help with pronunciation but it is key to understand the meaning !
So please, if you have evidence about when the Quran was received by Mohamed or how it was written down (with or without tashkeel) please share those evidences (no opinions) with us.May God guide us all
