Why cant we scientifically prove god?
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Peace, hawk99.
I tend to agree that at least the biological/behavioral science branch of anthropology is indeed science
however, my point of view may be biased due to my religious beliefs, having said that, I would not conclude
what scientist would say in regards to the existence of God because there is no unilateral agreement.
The confusion of whether God is physical versus supernatural, is a non starter because scientist
of the empirical persuasion have no input due to the fact there is nothing to measure! Therefore we must leave
the sciences that require measurement and repeatability out of the discussion and discuss the subject
as supernatural where it clearly belongs, and that is within the human brain like other non tangible characteristics.
That only leaves the sciences of observation followed by conclusion like in post #133. The attempt at defining God
in actuality quite easy, because men have wrote about God in many texts, and these texts should be examined to
bring us to a reasonable conclusion about who or what God is.I apologize for the late reply...
I highlighted the portion of your post that I tend to have some skepticism about... I agree that, when it comes to any supernatural power (e.g. gods, angels, demons, spirits, etc.), there is nothing to measure. However, that also illustrates why I say that many scientists would scientifically reject those ideas. If something can't be tested or measured, then we can't prove that it actually exists. We can only speculate and believe. And, needless to say, that doesn't fit into the realm of scientific thought because, of course, we can believe in Santa Claus and his band of elves too - that doesn't make them real.
Concerning the books, particularly with regard to what people have written about God(s), I can agree with you to an extent on a philosophical level. However, that's also dependent on preconceived notions. For starters, people have written books on many different gods and divine figures, not just the Islamic concept of God (e.g. ALLAH). A simple trip to a local library will uncover thousands of documents about Brahma, Vishnu, Ahura-Mazda, Mithra, Amun-Ra, Yahweh, Zeus, Apollo, and many others. And, even worse than this, these deities aren't all related philosophically - Brahma is a pantheistic god, Vishnu is a force of destruction and desolation, Ahura-Mazda is a dualistic god ("evenly matched" against the evil god Ahriman) of light, Mithra is a messianic god, Amun-Ra and Apollo are solar gods, Yahweh is a physical (and anthropomorphic) national god, and Zeus is a material god atop a large mountain who is the "chief" of a group of other gods. In other words, they can't reasonably be talking about the same figure in all of them, especially due to the striking differences between them. And, again, this is a very small list.
Hypothetically, if we did sit down and read through ALL of those books concerning the various gods and goddesses throughout the world and its history, what conclusion would we come up with? Which god would be perceived as the "right" one? Well, that's not difficult to address either. As the saying goes, "The proof is in the pudding!" The fact is, nearly every society in the world, throughout history, has possessed and revered a solar deity. This dates back to the ancient Nubians, Egyptians, Indians and Mesopotamians, which are considered the oldest of the world's (religious) civilizations. Even the Central and South American societies, which some contend are just as old, had a solar god (e.g. Viracocha). Why? Because the existence of the Sun is something that nobody can deny. If people need evidence for the existence of their divine figure(s), all they have to do is look up in the sky! That alone tells me that, if knowledge and belief of all deific figures was somehow lost, and people were searching for a 'new god' to worship, they would probably look toward something physical - and the Sun would be the primary candidate (the Universe as a whole, or Nature, would probably come in at a close second-place)!
To sum it up, personally, I think that, if people objectively read about every deity and studied every "holy book" throughout the world, basing their conclusions on the validity of the arguments therein, very few people would believe in the Judeo-Christian and Islamic deity. The Bible doesn't provide any ideas concerning the validity of the "god argument" at all, for example. It builds on the foundational principle that these people (e.g. the Israelites) already know that God exists and have supposedly physically seen all of the things that He's done for them. The Qur'aan actually does expound on the concept of divinity in a rational method, which is great and sufficient to many - but it does this on the premise that people already believe in ALLAH and acknowledge His existence. Instead of saying, "This is how you know I'm real," it opens on the basis of, "You already know that I'm real, and this is what I've done (and do), and this is what I want you to do!"
And, by the way, this isn't including the originating functions of the messages themselves! Outside of the concepts relayed in Judaism, all of the other facets of revelation are completely limited. In other words, they were all revealed to ONE MAN in an isolated area when he was all by himself, with nobody else present to witness the event. For some unknown reason, the other inhabitants of the land in which the man dwelt (and possibly throughout the rest of the known world) are expected to blindly believe and follow him based on abstract ideals, such as his "moral character" or his "great piety", etc. Again, the only religious philosophy in which I'm aware that steers away from this premise is the Judaic one, since ALL of the Israelites (supposedly) heard God speak to them collectively at Mount Horeb, or Sinai. All of the other guys had dreams concerning God's plan and commands, they heard "voices" inside their heads, they spoke to Him secretly when nobody else was around, they had visions of His majesty, etc. - which are all things that can't be objectively verified or substantiated. Sure, some of these people performed fantastic 'miracles' to validate their divine mission; but these can't be substantiated either. At the end of the day, it's all based on hearsay.
What's your view concerning that?
Peace,
Ahmad
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If you say God is an elephant, and believe the existence of an elephant can be scientifically proven, then yes.
It always depends on your criteria, and what you believe can be scientifically proven, and if that is what you call God.
I believe my God is logically necessary, so in that sense can kind of be "scientifically proven" in a way, but maybe it doesn't count.
Another easy way is to say "there is stuff" "whatever is Ultimately moving the "stuff", the Ultimate most whatever at all, the Ultimate cause or determiner is what I consider God", so that can be called "Chance" "Probability" "Animation" "Power" or whatever.
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The Sustainer is so close to people to perceive that in their very existence they can prove the Sustainer. It takes some abstract thinking, but it is quite easy to figure out that there is a background intelligence to all this. The universe is simply intelligent in itself, even a scientist in their delusion could figure that out if they reflected. Just check on how all this matter in the universe could even assemble itself and then gradually develop biological lifeforms. The one who thinks the evolution is not guided by a more sophisticated intelligence is not thinking enough. I call it illogical to be not believing in some form of "deity" even if it is pantheism or panentheism and everything is included and not separate from it.
I had not even encountered Quran or the Bible in any particular way but I still begun to acknowledge the Sustainer as the ultimate truth after I was contemplating at home over my own existence. The same year as I had those "realizations" I also made my so far strongest prayer in my life begging (with tears) "the one that can listen even if I do not know who you are" and prayed for a wife and I wanted a family before I turn 30 since I had a deluded conception of failure not to having established a family yet. I made detailed wishes of how my wife should be. Believe it or not, two years later I meet a woman coincidentally without actively looking or even intending go for her but she begun to make approaches. The point is that I did not know her, but I found out later that she has been exactly the woman in my prayer, and my prayer was fulfilled before I turned 30 and I had a son before I turned 30.
Obviously and ironically I now when I am 33 regret that I made that prayer, but I have to stand my ground. It appears that no matter what I do I am stuck with this woman. At least now she lets me work on the reinterpretation of Quran peacefully after heavy turmoil. I have to eat up what I prayed for because I prayed for a traditional woman with "old-school" views and this was exactly what I got too, because I did not want the women that simply can leave a man over no valid reasons. Now my problem is I cannot get rid of the woman no matter I want it or not instead. It makes me laugh at myself. I brought a curse upon myself.
If looking at things from the positive side, it tremendously boosted my faith and today 2015 I am beyond doubt certain that the Sustainer exists and I am also insisting that I have insight into the "realm".
But whatever you do, if you have faith, do not pray for what is bad for you...
All my prayers from a period of 10 years and perhaps even more are gradually coming true and it is scary actually and I realize I must be careful.
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Obviously and ironically I now when I am 33 regret that I made that prayer, but I have to stand my ground. It appears that no matter what I do I am stuck with this woman. At least now she lets me work on the reinterpretation of Quran peacefully after heavy turmoil. I have to eat up what I prayed for because I prayed for a traditional woman with "old-school" views and this was exactly what I got too, because I did not want the women that simply can leave a man over no valid reasons. Now my problem is I cannot get rid of the woman no matter I want it or not instead. It makes me laugh at myself. I brought a curse upon myself.
If looking at things from the positive side, it tremendously boosted my faith and today 2015 I am beyond doubt certain that the Sustainer exists and I am also insisting that I have insight into the "realm".
But whatever you do, if you have faith, do not pray for what is bad for you...
All my prayers from a period of 10 years and perhaps even more are gradually coming true and it is scary actually and I realize I must be careful.
Quran 2155
"Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere,"Quran 4731
"And We shall try you until We test those among you who strive their utmost and persevere in patience; and We shall try your reported (mettle)."
Quran 292
"Does mankind think that they will be left to say, "We believe", and that they will not be tested?"Quran 3949
"Now, when trouble touches man, he cries to Us But when We bestow a favour upon him as from Ourselves, he says, "This has been given to me because of a certain knowledge (I have)!" Nay, but this is but a trial, but most of them understand not!" -
But whatever you do, if you have faith, do not pray for what is bad for you...
All my prayers from a period of 10 years and perhaps even more are gradually coming true and it is scary actually and I realize I must be careful.
You accept the power of prayer? But yet you deny salaat as a form of prayer because, as per you, such a God / creator would not require it.
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Just check on how all this matter in the universe could even assemble itself and then gradually develop biological lifeforms.
Would this help answer your query?
Quran 4111
"Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come , willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."
We DO know today 'scientifically' that there exist massive clouds in the galaxy that are there for the only reason as to create new stars. These massive clouds collapse to form stars and planets.
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Hi OnlyOneGod,
You accept the power of prayer? But yet you deny salaat as a form of prayer because, as per you, such a God / creator would not require it.
I deny "salat" because the word does simply not refer to prayer, at all.
Prayer men and women of all ages have been practicing with or without physical exercise. Although they are not absolutely necessary because the Sustainer knows what you need before you have even opened your mouth. The Sustainer does not require it.
The only thing that is expected by the Sustainer is that a man becomes perfect. But I suppose the Sustainer does not expect too many actually achieve that considered the magnitude of the illusion. The Sustainer planted seeds and is waiting for harvest from a cultivation planted in a harsh environment, but there is a refuge...
Would this help answer your query?
Thanks, but what I wrote was a rhetorical remark and not a query. The topic of the thread is "Why cant we scientifically prove god?"
Be well
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Peace,
Why can't we scientifically prove god?
The issue is on the phenomenon to be proven and the methodology.
How do we define god and what is scientific method?Let's put it that the conceptual definition of god=the supreme intelligent "it", creator of all beings and its information embedded as knowledge which we are able to sense and understand empirically and logically (logical empiricism position). Is such "it" exists.
My operational test General statement from many people that the Quran contains message created/written by god. Is it true?
My position after careful study Yes i positively and logically concluded with certainty that the book contains messages from my creator and the creator of all beings.
Once i understand what god is from the quran, i can only get to the Truth of its existence via knowledge.
Zone.
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Peace,
Why can't we scientifically prove god?
The issue is on the phenomenon to be proven and the methodology.
How do we define god and what is scientific method?Let's put it that the conceptual definition of god=the supreme intelligent "it", creator of all beings and its information embedded as knowledge which we are able to sense and understand empirically and logically (logical empiricism position). Is such "it" exists.
My operational test General statement from many people that the Quran contains message created/written by god. Is it true?
My position after careful study Yes i positively and logically concluded with certainty that the book contains messages from my creator and the creator of all beings.
Once i understand what god is from the quran, i can only get to the Truth of its existence via knowledge.
Zone.
Do you claim that there are some words or works which are not from God?
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The atheists do not believe in a God because science cannot prove it to them. But the scientists of just a few hundred years ago would have called bullshit if anyone said that there are invisible rays in the air which man can control and command to his will. Would that scientist have accepted that people across the globe could talk to each other, or have things like televisions or xray machines. Of course not. Because they speak within the confines of the limited knowledge that they have.
A scientists will talk all day about his belief in the laws of science and then casually accept the fact that the laws of science (as we know them today) collapse within a black hole or at the time of singularity of the universe. If laws of science CAN collapse in such scenarios then it is not a big stretch to imagine that these physical laws are not the absolute truths that the atheists make them out to be.
They also argue as to why there is evil in the world if their is a God deity overseeing everything? I think that the existence of evil is itself a proof of a God. To begin with, every man is somehow born with an innate sense of right and wrong. Religions do not create the good and the bad, they simply enforce the importance of being good. Even an atheist knows that love and charity are good things, while murder and rape are bad. Evil has its own purpose and so does disease and inequality.
People do not see intelligent design in the creation and working of the universe but I see it all around me and it amazes me.
If God wanted man to be able to prove his existence beyond a shadow of a doubt then the very purpose of mans existence on this planet would become null and void.
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They also argue as to why there is evil in the world if their is a God deity overseeing everything?
I come across that a lot. Funny how some scientific people don't realize that this world is nothing but a test ground for humans. Our lives are temporary for a reason. And Allah has given us the power to eliminate evil. But our lazy bones don't want to get up and do it. Instead we work for it. Imagine what would happen if people of the world unite and rise against the elite. But nope, its not gonna happen, for we believe in whatever the media says and that keeps us divided quite perfectly.
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I come across that a lot. Funny how some scientific people don't realize that this world is nothing but a test ground for humans. Our lives are temporary for a reason. And Allah has given us the power to eliminate evil. But our lazy bones don't want to get up and do it. Instead we work for it. Imagine what would happen if people of the world unite and rise against the elite. But nope, its not gonna happen, for we believe in whatever the media says and that keeps us divided quite perfectly.
The laws of good and evil have been ordained, they are as much laws as the physics laws of cause and effect, or the positive and the negative poles of a magnet. They each play their own part within what Allah (swt) has created. It is up to us to choose which side we join (free will).
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I come across that a lot. Funny how some scientific people don't realize that this world is nothing but a test ground for humans. Our lives are temporary for a reason. And Allah has given us the power to eliminate evil. But our lazy bones don't want to get up and do it. Instead we work for it. Imagine what would happen if people of the world unite and rise against the elite. But nope, its not gonna happen, for we believe in whatever the media says and that keeps us divided quite perfectly.
The Qur'an seems to say a person does not have the power to eliminate evil, that God is the source of the evil, and God is the source of the conflict, not allowing people to unite.
It says even that "had we willed you would have been one community" and things like that, which means "we do not will it, it will not be so".
So it isn't just the Media, but the Master of the Media, and that isn't just Satan, but rather it is only God Ultimately, the one filling your eyes with whatever it is filled with, and your brain, controller of information, creator and dispenser of evil of every sort known and unknown, experienced and not yet experienced, there is no other.
At least there is more than enough confirming that from the Qur'an, but regardless of the Qur'an, science, common sense, linguistics, and whatever else also point towards the same logical necessity.
There is just no way around it.
God is the source of everything, or else what you're calling God isn't worthy of being called God, but rather there is then some Greater Determiner, and I only worship the Ultimate, nothing less. Most people say they worship God, and what they consider Ultimate, but then they define it in such ways that make it clear there are other powers that are the real Ultimate, so it is the Only Ultimate that I worship, not the lesser things, and this can be derived through careful analysis and the Qur'an can be used to also affirm it.
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Of course God is the source of all there is, whether we define it as evil or as good. It is merely our limited perception of things that cannot accept that fact. An evil act is only evil because that is how God has programmed this universe. Otherwise the killing of a human has as much, or even less impact on the universe as us killing of a bug or a virus. We do not consider THAT killing to be an evil act because that benefits us and that is too minute a being in the scale of the life we live in. A doctor for us is a great savior while he helps eliminate life forms at the microbial level. In the scale of the universe we are less than microbes and yet we have egos to encompass the universe. People will try their best in trying to justify to atheists why God may kill, all the while crushing an ant under their boot without a second thought. Religions like Christianity and Jainism fail at understanding the scale of how great God is and how insignificant we actually are. Their belief might sound good when arguing over the internet but practically they fail to understand what our creator is.
What we have to differentiate us from an ant is free will and the intellect to determine right from wrong (as ordained by God and imprinted in our conscience). Otherwise in practical terms our existence is insignificant.
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Peace.
There is another way to prove to yourself GOD exists! Devote yourself to GOD Alone and see the miracle! It is a natural instinct?
3030
Therefore, you shall devote yourself to the religion of strict monotheism. Such is the natural instinct placed into the people by God. Such creation of God will never change. This is the perfect Deen, but most people do not know.Also
The heavens and the earth are full of proofs for the believers.If you can reflect, if you can think, if you are knowledgeable, if you can see and hear,if you can understand... Then you have your proofs?
Among His proofs is that He created you from dust, then you became reproducing humans.
He committed in your service everything in the heavens and the earth; all from Him. These are proofs for people who reflect.
Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think.
Among His proofs are the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colors. In these, there are signs for the knowledgeable.
Among His proofs is your sleeping during the night or the day, and your working in pursuit of His provisions. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who can hear.
Among His proofs is that He shows you the lightning as a source of fear, as well as hope, then He sends down from the sky water to revive a land that has been dead. In these, there are sufficient proofs for people who understand....etc
I am certain of GOD s existence.
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
Peace.
There is another way to prove to yourself GOD exists! Devote yourself to GOD Alone and see the miracle! It is a natural instinct?
3030
Therefore, you shall devote yourself to the religion of strict monotheism. Such is the natural instinct placed into the people by God. Such creation of God will never change. This is the perfect Deen, but most people do not know.Also
The heavens and the earth are full of proofs for the believers.If you can reflect, if you can think, if you are knowledgeable, if you can see and hear,if you can understand... Then you have your proofs?
Among His proofs is that He created you from dust, then you became reproducing humans.
He committed in your service everything in the heavens and the earth; all from Him. These are proofs for people who reflect.
Among His proofs is that He created for you spouses from among yourselves, in order to have tranquility and contentment with each other, and He placed in your hearts love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who think.
Among His proofs are the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colors. In these, there are signs for the knowledgeable.
Among His proofs is your sleeping during the night or the day, and your working in pursuit of His provisions. In this, there are sufficient proofs for people who can hear.
Among His proofs is that He shows you the lightning as a source of fear, as well as hope, then He sends down from the sky water to revive a land that has been dead. In these, there are sufficient proofs for people who understand....etc
I am certain of GOD s existence.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.Great quotes MashaAllah, I personally feel that the very fact that our faces are unique and which can help identify us is also a miracle from God. Natural selection cannot answer such minute aspects of why and how we are created. Why do our facial features or our thumb prints give us a unique identity, which we require in every aspect of our lives today? How can "science" explain such things?
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Peace, FreedomStands.
The Qur'an seems to say a person does not have the power to eliminate evil, that God is the source of the evil, and God is the source of the conflict, not allowing people to unite.
It says even that "had we willed you would have been one community" and things like that, which means "we do not will it, it will not be so".
So it isn't just the Media, but the Master of the Media, and that isn't just Satan, but rather it is only God Ultimately, the one filling your eyes with whatever it is filled with, and your brain, controller of information, creator and dispenser of evil of every sort known and unknown, experienced and not yet experienced, there is no other.
At least there is more than enough confirming that from the Qur'an, but regardless of the Qur'an, science, common sense, linguistics, and whatever else also point towards the same logical necessity.
There is just no way around it.
God is the source of everything, or else what you're calling God isn't worthy of being called God, but rather there is then some Greater Determiner, and I only worship the Ultimate, nothing less. Most people say they worship God, and what they consider Ultimate, but then they define it in such ways that make it clear there are other powers that are the real Ultimate, so it is the Only Ultimate that I worship, not the lesser things, and this can be derived through careful analysis and the Qur'an can be used to also affirm it.
We've actually discussed this before, and this is an area where we certainly differ. If God creates the conflict and separation, and there's nothing we can personally do to eliminate this problem, then this scope would have to be applied to everything. And that creates a major issue.
Are we responsible for the choices we make? Do we have any control over what we do, what we think, etc.? And, if not, how can we legitimately be punished by God (via "heaven" or "hell" for the things He causes us to do? Wouldn't that make God unjust, unmerciful, tyrannical, etc.? Do we bear any responsibility for the things we do? Or are we merely victims of God's whims on behalf of us?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Nice to see you posting Ahmad Bilal -)
How are things?
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Peace, FreedomStands.
We've actually discussed this before, and this is an area where we certainly differ. If God creates the conflict and separation, and there's nothing we can personally do to eliminate this problem, then this scope would have to be applied to everything. And that creates a major issue.
Are we responsible for the choices we make? Do we have any control over what we do, what we think, etc.? And, if not, how can we legitimately be punished by God (via "heaven" or "hell" for the things He causes us to do? Wouldn't that make God unjust, unmerciful, tyrannical, etc.? Do we bear any responsibility for the things we do? Or are we merely victims of God's whims on behalf of us?
Peace,
Ahmad
Think of it this way What if it were so? What could you do about it? So who cares. It doesn't matter if some little shrimp says if it is legit, or 2 legit 2 quit. What can you do about it? What can you do about causality for example if we are to take a scientific perspective? That you stayed sitting one day for 1 minute extra changes the whole course of human history, because then you weren't at such and such spot, then such and such didn't occur, an ant was spared, a car accident didn't happen. People are ignorant and don't realize how they claim to decide all things by even that one little wiggle of their toe that changes the course of all things.
It is irrelevant. You will do whatever you will do, it makes no difference if you understand it one way or another, you'll do exactly what you'll do. So what if God was all those things, doing it all ultimately, the only power with no other movers or actors in the bigger picture. So what? What can you do about it if that were the case even? Say that it is bad by your standards? What does it change? Will you stop worshiping God if you believed that God alone is the only power, mover, and actor?
This is why I bring up this issue. It brings up the the difficulties for people to face them. In my case, the answer is that God is the Ultimate Power, it doesn't matter of God is bad or good or unjust or just or anything at all, all that matters is that I worship whatever is Ultimate, nothing less. If what people call "God" is relying on "Chance" to determine things, then it is Chance that I worship, not the lesser one that "leaves it to chance, probability, happenstance".
This is the hardest thing for most people to swallow. So don't swallow it. I just bring it up to people to watch them squirm.
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When asking about proving God scientifically we first need to be clear on what would constitute proof. How do we know when have reached the proof? This is also closely linked to our image of God.
I'd say that mostly, absence of or failure to prove God, is a sign of a faulty image of God. The problem is our image and expectations. The problem is not proving God.