Ramadhan = ?
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As far as I am concerned there is nothing even in the traditional interpretation of Quran which requires the morning prayer to be forced to be observed before sunrise except from external sources and opinions. Nor should you be forced to pray exactly when the sun has gone down but it could also be observed at midnight before you go to bed. And there is nothing in the traditional interpretation that indicates that prayer during the day must be observed exactly at noon, but it says "when the sun has passed its zenith and moves towards its setting", in the sectarian interpretation, indicating that it could theoretically be observed at any time from noon until sunset using a logic based on those premises.
Even then I do not even consider salat to refer to the ritual people talk about.
Obviously if one likes to fast the intention is most important and it does not really matter if it starts at 6 and ends at 8 o'clock disregarding the position of the sun. The traditional interpretation says when rays of light can be seen in the horizon, but what can it say. That when it is daytime you shall abstain by fasting but the time is obviously not critical and it is not even possible to use the position of the sun as a measurement in locations such as the far north.
You do not fast as a worship practice and to appear pious to others or yourself, but you fast to learn to control desire and it does not really matter when it starts. You can also substitute it by quit eating sugary foods and drink, overeat etc.
Be well
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Of course, I agree. People are experts at excuses.
Fasting can always happen. Anyone can fast at anytime as much as they want.
But I hope you understand I was just making an observation, which people seem to willfully disregard due to the cultural prohibition of questioning anything pertaining to one's religion.
As per the traditional understanding of 2187, we must cease eating and drinking (etc) as soon as the true light of dawn appears on the sky. I haven't seen any exception to this pertaining to nature (light of the sky). The only exceptions are in regards to us human beings, not the sky. In any case, there is no issue of anything being difficult or anyone telling anyone else what to do.
Never mind, anyone can study the quran and see what makes sense and what doesn't as per their current understanding and knowledge. And then we have tradition of course, like the rules about the start and end of fasting, which anyone who wishes is most welcome to follow.
Peace and well wishes
If the sky is cloudy one might not be able to see that phenomenon either. I think in the far north compensations can be decided, but it was speaking to an audience who could understand what it was talking about in a region like that, and most of the world has had no problem with these instructions.
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As far as I am concerned there is nothing even in the traditional interpretation of Quran which requires the morning prayer to be forced to be observed before sunrise except from external sources and opinions. Nor should you be forced to pray exactly when the sun has gone down but it could also be observed at midnight before you go to bed. And there is nothing in the traditional interpretation that indicates that prayer during the day must be observed exactly at noon, but it says "when the sun has passed its zenith and moves towards its setting", in the sectarian interpretation, indicating that it could theoretically be observed at any time from noon until sunset using a logic based on those premises.
Even then I do not even consider salat to refer to the ritual people talk about.
Obviously if one likes to fast the intention is most important and it does not really matter if it starts at 6 and ends at 8 o'clock disregarding the position of the sun. The traditional interpretation says when rays of light can be seen in the horizon, but what can it say. That when it is daytime you shall abstain by fasting but the time is obviously not critical and it is not even possible to use the position of the sun as a measurement in locations such as the far north.
You do not fast as a worship practice and to appear pious to others or yourself, but you fast to learn to control desire and it does not really matter when it starts. You can also substitute it by quit eating sugary foods and drink, overeat etc.
Be well
I agree, its about training and learning, not about petty things.
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peace ayman, all,
To my knowledge there are two theoretically possible translations of 2184
"...and upon those are able/capable of it (sawm) a ransom..." (with the implication being they choose not to)
"...and upon those who are able to do it but with difficulty a ransom..."
Based on the evidence, especially the ending of the verse, I am of the view the evidence is in favour of (1).
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Peace everyone,
Yes, it is that time of the year again )
According to the above we only have one main meaning of ?ramadan? and its derivatives, which has to do with scorching heat. This is the thread that runs in all the meanings. On its own it means heat and when used with ?clouds or rain? it means hot ?clouds or rain? that come in late summer or early fall when the weather is still hot in Arabia. So in the case of ?sahab ramdy? or ?matar ramdy? it means ?hot clouds? or ?hot rain? similar to ?shahr ramadan? meaning ?scorching/hot full-moon?. The Quran talks about scorching full-moon and not hot rain/clouds. In all cases, this negates the winter solstice theory completely.
If we read the passage in context, it talks about Maryam being asked to shake the palm tree to get ripe dates. Shaking the palm tree is not how you harvest dates (try shaking one with all your strength and see if you can move it an inch). Now imagine you are a pregnant woman giving labor. Dates will either fall to the ground by themselves or someone has to climb the palm tree or somehow reach to its top and harvest them. So the whole passage talks about a situation that is out of the ordinary.
The term ?qadr? is never associated with the sun in the quran. On the other hand, it is clearly associated with the moon
And the moon we have measured it in descending stages until it becomes like a curved sheath.
The word ?qadr? means measure and not equal and the verb ?qadrnah? means ?we measured it? not ?we made it equal?. The word ?manazil? (from nzl/ descend) describes ?descending stages?. So tying it all together, ?laylat alqadr? is the night where the god measures the moon in descending stages until it takes the shape of the crescent. Of course the moon can only descend in shape from the full-moon. So this is the night of full-moon and has absolutely nothing to do with the equinox.
Also, it is impossible to count a year according to 1712 based on the equinox. It has to be one of the solstices. We already established that the term ?ramadan? rules out the winter solstice. So we are only left with the summer solstice.
17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.
So we agree that hagg means feast. It also takes place in known full-moons that are known to all people, not just those who believe in the great reading or who are member of a particular religion. This automatically indicates that the period of hagg/feast must be one where food is plentiful. This means it must be a harvest feast. Of course harvest of most fruits and vegetables is in the summer until early fall. There is no harvest in the winter solstice. Also, in the spring in Arabia there is only harvest of grains such as wheat and not much else. So all this certainly points to the four inviolable full-moons being the harvest full-moons (all cultures regardless of religion or beliefs know about the harvest moons), which are consecutive, three in the summer and the fourth and last one is in early fall. This also happens to be when hunting is restricted since there are now alternative food sources and livestock is plentiful. Also, this is when most young newly born wild animals are still dependent on their mothers. They start being self-dependent by the fall. This is why everywhere in the civilized world hunting season for wild game is started in the fall.
All in all, the evidence converges very nicely on shahr ramadan being the full-moon after the summer solstice. So I think this is the right direction, unless some drastic new evidence appears or the earth or moon is completely destroyed by an asteroid )
I posted a video in Arabic on the Quran4Peace facebook page, which summarizes this understanding
https//www.facebook.com/video.php?v=471577376343492
I miss you guys )
Peace and all best wishes to everyone,
Ayman
Salaam brother Ayman
i have read quite all writings i know from you, olds one and new, and i follows you on facebook.
i am grateful too you and admire your work.
i agree with you on many understandings.however, there is some differences in interpretation.
1 your "quranic" explanation why 4 ashor haram are consecutive didn't convince me. There is 4 insilakh if there is 4 ahsor. moreover, if consider islam as religion of moses, issa and all prophets before, we should have somewhere people with four consecutive "ashor" haram or something like that.2-sana is lunar month. proof is with age of noah who stayed 1000 sana less 50 aaam (33 years).
3-qadr is measure and good measure is good equivalence of measured and mesured thing.
i inderstand very well you arguments. All your arguments. But as i have a scientifc background, i consider the "conjunction" of astronomical events of 20 september 617 as proof. Scientifically, you have to give a similiar conjonction of summer solistice and full moon.
i know that we have reached a level that it is difficult for me to convince you and difficult for you to convince me.
hope we meet one day for a Hajj by mubachara.dear bro,
it is you the first one i know who wrote about jinn as human imaginary. I accepted your interpretation after verification.
Hajj is to feed both ins (human) and jinn (spiritual side). it is not feast only for Ins.
there is big duality in quran (sent for both ins and for jinn). Food is dual. Had'y is dual. Sadaqa is dual.Jihad is dual.
you have to invite Jinns in your understanding of Hajj. Hojjajs are debators, making omra are listeners. People making "sikayat el hajj" are not as Hojjajs. Hajj feast is dual.Peace Bro. And greats respects for all you do and did.
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peace Wakas
Based on the evidence, especially the ending of the verse, I am of the view the evidence is in favour of (1)
You are right. I concur.
Penalty is always for the guilty.
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Peace everyone and nice to see you here again, Ayman!
A brother argued that "Ramadan" has to be a proper name because there is no "al" before "Ramadan" but then aL-ladhy is used relating to the "genitive conjunction" shahru ramadan. Therefore the genitive conjuntion (shahru ramadan) is definite. Since there is no "al" before Ramadan this can only be the case if Ramadan is a proper noun. What do you say? Any comment is appreciated.
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dear bro,
it is you the first one i know who wrote about jinn as human imaginary. I accepted your interpretation after verification.
Hajj is to feed both ins (human) and jinn (spiritual side). it is not feast only for Ins.
there is big duality in quran (sent for both ins and for jinn). Food is dual. Had'y is dual. Sadaqa is dual.Jihad is dual.
you have to invite Jinns in your understanding of Hajj. Hojjajs are debators, making omra are listeners. People making "sikayat el hajj" are not as Hojjajs. Hajj feast is dual.Peace Bro. And greats respects for all you do and did.
Convinced you there are no jinn except the human imagination? Is he really so "dear"?
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Salam to all,
The passage introduces fasting being prescribed unto the believers as it was prescribed to those who came before the revelation of the Qur'an which was "ayyaman ma3doudat". Those who came before fasted "ayyaman ma3doudat". When the Qur'an was revealed the fasting the believers are to do is the month of Ramdhan or in case of sickness or on travel can be done later for the number of days that fast was broken.
Khodr
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peace ayman, all,
To my knowledge there are two theoretically possible translations of 2184
"...and upon those are able/capable of it (sawm) a ransom..." (with the implication being they choose not to)
"...and upon those who are able to do it but with difficulty a ransom..."
Based on the evidence, especially the ending of the verse, I am of the view the evidence is in favour of (1).
Peace Wakas,
I see this aayat differently.
As per my understanding there are two type of persons mentioned in 2184.
1- Those who are travelling or ill and not able to do Saum.
2- Those who are travelling or ill and are able to do Saum.Those who are able but not doing Saum has to give ransom. If you compare with the first point, these people are at ease. Because they are able of doing Saum but not doing it and also not completing Saum in other days? Is it enough for them to give ransom of feeding a poor?
Those who are not able of Saum are in trouble here. They are actually not able and still have to complete the count in other days? If so, then favor goes to people mentioned in point number 2. So, I understand it has to like
1- Those who are travelling or ill has to complete the count in other days because they are not able to do Saum.
2- Those who are travelling or ill has to complete the count in other days and also feed a poor because they are able to do Saum.May Allah increase our knowledge and guide us on His path pr
mmKhan -
Layth, Ayman, Wakas, Nadia, Farida, Huruf, Noon, Saima and all the oldies, Salam D it's been a long time.
Peace Ayman,
b) the fast of summer creates hardship (contrary to what God tells us) as people who would work in the open would suffer;
c) the summer solstice has the longest day of the year (northern hemisphere) which would take the fast to extreme hours in some habitable regions.Regards,
Brother layth, my opinion regarding your above assertions, are
2-184........ But fasting is the best for you, if you only knew.
Fasting is for us, probably good for our body health, most likely some cycle gets triggered by a certain duration of deprivation, and that duration has to be long enough to bring in a certain hardship. If we look at the starting and ending markers for fast , it becomes obvious that the earliest possible marker was chosen and described in detail for starting fast.
2-187....You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn.
and then the period was stretched to the Max by using the last possible Visible Marker, LAYAL, ,
Selection of above markers over (the easier and more obvious) sunrise to sunset is deliberate, probably to stretch the duration of fast to the Maximum.The winter fast theory which makes fasting easy, in a day of the shortest duration, does not fall in line with the spirit of the most likely intentions of the designer. On the other hand, it dovetails smoothly with the longest days after summer solstice
Yet another indicator, is the command/compulsion, in 2-185.... Those of you who witness this (Full Red moon of the Heat) shahar... ,
Above ensures that, one will Fast only when this full red moon is available in one's geographical location. This is meant to preclude the possibility of a coordinated fast in Northern and southern hemispheres. People above equator fast in summers around longest possible hot days, and people down under would end up fasting in their summers on longest days 6 months later/earlier.
Peace
Siki
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Hi siki,
Where is your evidence of Jewish people fasting a whole month during summer?
2183 O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous
Many are aware that Muslims devote an entire month--that of Ramadan--to a fast that extends through the daylight hours, coinciding with the revelation of the Koran, the sacred scripture of Islam. The fast is known as the sawm (identical to the Hebrew word for a fast, tzom). Less widely known is the fact that the institution of Ramadan took the place of an earlier practice, a single-day (24 hour) fast known in Arabic as the Ashura.
Islamic tradition bases this custom on a reference in the Koran (2183-187) to keeping "the fast as it was prescribed for those before you". Muslim tradition explains that "those before you" were the Jews, and that Muhammad in this passage was commanding that his followers adopt the Jewish custom of fasting on the Day of Atonement.The Arabic word Ashura is none other than the Hebrew word Asor, the tenth, the term used in the Bible (Leviticus 1629, etc.) to designate the date of the holiday (the tenth day of the seventh month).
The origin of this precept is described in the Muslim "oral tradition" (Hadith) as collected by the noted 9th century authority, Al-Bukhari
When the Prophet came to al-Madinah he found that the Jews observed the fast of Ashura. He enquired about this and was told that it was the day on which God had delivered the Children of Israel from the enemy and Moses used to keep a fast on it as an expression of gratitude to the Almighty. The Prophet thereupon remarked that "Moses has a greater claim upon me than upon you," and he fasted on that day and instructed his followers to do the same.
The reference to the deliverance from "the enemy" is puzzling. In other versions of this tradition, the event it is explicitly identified as the drowning of Pharaoh's armies in the Red Sea. This does not seem to correspond with any Jewish traditions about the significance of Yom Kippur.Muslim interpreters were further puzzled by other traditions which depicted the Jewish holiday in question as a joyous festival, in which women were accustomed to dress up in ornamental finery. This did not seem to agree with the Biblical portrayal of a solemn day devoted to contrite prayers for the atonement of sins.
Some Islamic scholars were consequently moved to reject the traditional identification, and apply it to Passover. Such an identification was made more likely by the dual system used for enumerating the Jewish months, according to which the month that had originally been counted the first (Nisan) came later to be regarded as the seventh. The fact is, however, that the older Islamic traditions do appear accurate. For in a way that non-Jews often have difficulty appreciating, the Jewish mood on Yom Kippur has always been one of joy and good spirits, precisely because of the confidence that God has indeed forgiven our sins and we may joyfully begin life anew with a clean slate.The Mishnah (end of Ta'anit) describes this atmosphere vividly "Israel knew no days as joyous as...the Day of Atonement, in which the daughters of Jerusalem would go out in...white garments and dance in the vineyards..."
As to the question of the supposed victory over Moses' enemy on Yom Kippur, it seems clear that the original reference was not to Pharaoh or any mortal foe of the Jews, but rather to Satan (the Hebrew term literally translates as "the Antagonist". This accords with the traditional Jewish identification of Yom Kippur as the day on which Moses finally concluded the 40 days of prayer and pleading with God to forgive the Israelites for the sin of worshipping the golden calf.
According to the Midrash, it was on Yom Kippur that God finally announced (against the counter-arguments proposed by Satan) that Moses was allowed to present the people with the second tablets of the Law. This story was well known to Muhammad, and alluded to elsewhere in the Koran.
There are a number of other instances in the development of Islamic ritual, in which Muhammad is reported to have ordered a shift away from an earlier practice which had been identical with the Jewish observance.
Such changes have normally been attributed to Muhammad's frustration at the fact that the Jews did not ultimately come to accept him as a prophet. Thus, for instance, he originally ordered that his followers pray three times a day and in the direction of Jerusalem--like the Jews--but later altered it to five times, and towards Mecca.In the case of the Ashura, however, the story is somewhat different. While Muhammad did indeed replace it with the fast of Ramadan, he did not altogether abolish the former custom, and pious Muslims, especially among the Shiites (for whom the date has other historical associations), are still encouraged to observe the tenth day of the month Muharram as a voluntary fast, "to atone for the sins of the coming years."
The last ten days of Ramadan (termed I'tikaf) have a special status, and have been traced by some scholars to the custom of some pious Jews of fasting throughout the "ten days of penitence" between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.
Medieval tradition recommends that pious Muslims also fast on Mondays and Thursdays, another custom that has venerable Jewish roots. Some scholars have even suggested that the idea of fasting for an entire month also has its root in the Jewish custom of observing the whole month of Elul as a penitential period. The association with the revelation of the Koran also parallels the Jewish identification of Yom Kippur with Moses' giving of the second set of tablets.
PS I disagree with the quote where it claims Muhammad changed the qibla. Outside that, this article is a perfect representation of why I fast not in summer but in early autumn.
Peace
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For those interested Rosh Hashanah this year is Sep 14-15, 2015 and Yom Kippur is September 23
Peace
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Hi siki,
Where is your evidence of Jewish people fasting a whole month during summer?
2183 O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous
Peace
peace
I never said that the jews, or we have to fast for a duration of one month, I believe in a ten day fast
siki
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Regardless of duration, where is the evidence of summer fasting with the Jews?
Peace
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Peace Ayman, Siki,
Your input will be appreciated at this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.msg372783#msg372783
Thanks and peace
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Regardless of duration, where is the evidence of summer fasting with the Jews?
Peace
Summer Fasting with The Jews sounds like a tv show.
