New member! Warning: Long post.
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Salam Ambrandk,
a warm welcome from the other side of the ocean! There are some points in your story that remind me my own way (the atheist ohase in life, the fescination when reading Quran).
The main feature about Quranism is that everyone is entitled to his/her own interpretation and practice, so there are many different ideas here around.
In my understanding, you don't need to convert formally (I have never done so as I don't want the traditionalists to think they have any right to tell me what I should do or believe). You may even call yourself christian, as long as you see Jesus as prophet and not as (son of) God, this is no problem at all. So what matters is content, not label.
Concerning prayer I understand the Quran as asking us to remeber God all times of the day, so different ones are mentioned. In practice, I pray in the morning after getting up and in the evening before going to bed, and mostly at least once during day, but you may hold it as it fits your needs.
Concerning your sexuality, you will find out this is a heated debate within this forum. Some stick to the traditional view of condemning homosexuality. Be careful not to feel hurt by them. You are responsible for your own deeds, so just be open to the guidance of your creator and you will feel yourself what is right and what is wrong. In my personal view, as you say, love is never a sin. As long as homosexuality is the exemption and not the rule n society, I don't see it problematic. However, there is also the possibility of loving someone and sharing your life wihtout having sex. By the way, what does your partner say to your affinity to Islam and Quran? Does he accept it? If not, that might become a problem.One last recommendation there are some members of this forum who think they possess the absolute truth. Listen to their arguments but don't let them force you into anything. This conviction of knowing the absolute truth is in fact a sign of their limited understanding...
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One last recommendation there are some members of this forum who think they possess the absolute truth. Listen to their arguments but don't let them force you into anything. This conviction of knowing the absolute truth is in fact a sign of their limited understanding...
Can you list those members so we all can watch out for them?
Should one be in deep doubt when they say that only whatever is Ultimate is what they will direct their mind and worship to (as Ibrahim/Abraham is described as doing in the Qur'an)? Can they be certain that at least the following are "absolute truths"
1.There is "stuff"
2. The "stuff" appears animated.
3. Whatever is Ultimately responsible for this "stuff" (our experience that we are experiencing) can be called The Ultimate or God. By definition, Ultimate means that there is "nothing greater" than what we are referring to.What is Ultimate can then have certain specifications, such as not being driven by conditions or constrained by anything, etc.
Was I one of the members you were thinking of when you said that?
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Hi and welcome to the forum.
I guess the best place to start is with my story. I was raised in a fairly conservative christian household in the American South. I do not regret being a Christian, and the teachings of Jesus Christ (who I now recognize as a prophet and not the son of God) helped to ground me in morality and love all people.
Christian values are among the finest, even if the corrupt clergy has not always made it look that way.
Now, one of my biggest issues with Christianity is how the majority of the Christian New Testament came from Christ?s followers years after the events and teachings occurred. I have also been leery of the fact that over the years the New Testament has been tampered with by the Catholic church and others. Along with this I believe that the Christian teaching of the Holy Trinity is nothing but veiled polytheism.
The utterances of Jesus are mostly intact as according to what he said. It is the interpretation of individual words that is off. Son and Father are intended to be interpreted somewhat differently. Father = Initiator and "Son" a person who acknowledges to come from that Initiator. The translators from Aramaic into Greek probably chose dull words and did not reckon that they might be exploited. Ibn (son) and abu (father) do have a slightly different impact in the Semitic root languages and it does not have to be biologically (physical reference).
While I do not really acknowledge the various "theism's" the way it usually is, I agree that Jesus' divination is idolization and is directly against the second commandment of the famous 'Ten Commandments'. And if one carefully studies the Biblical Gospels Jesus actually says (something like - reciting from memory) "If you do like me you will all be children of the Father" utterly nullifying the doctrine of Christianity in the very text they claim to adhere to. He simply said that he showed the way of how a person should be and act to be near "the Father" (the Rabb - Sustainer).
However, I concur with the argument of Jesus when he says "I am in the Father and the Father in me". That is a validation of the first commandment, "To be Being inseparably in union" (abdu allahu wahadah - allah is an adjective/adverb in truth in the phrase). Jesus came to confirm the old decree and obviously he did, but the decree had already gone through millennia of corruption and people did not really comprehend what he meant and many outright saw it as a blasphemy, just like many people treat my insightful propagation on this forum waking up anew millennia of further corruption.
Jesus is seen objecting against "Pagan practices" when he says "Do not act like the Pagans with their many words" in a likely reference to ritualism with repetitive monologs and this perception of the Sustainer is against commandment number two. Jesus is seen avoiding to directly address the no-image approach to the Sustainer due to his life of persecution, but you can see it in the way he speaks. I have figured that when Jesus says "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and give to God what belongs to God" it is as subtle criticism and hinting towards rejection of such imagery. It takes much perception to realize that Jesus actually had a thought behind the utterance.
Jesus is seen mostly speak in parables and it takes some intellect and awareness to see the true nature of them. The Sustainer's prophets have a tendency to mostly use parables in their conveyance. I have learned however that this is because otherwise the words go in through one ear and out of the other because people simply do not contemplate and apply the lesson given a better light. People always like everything black on white but then it tends to just become a sacrilege more than carry any real weight.
People ought to know the real reason behind the commandment not to murder anyone. The primary reason behind it is not because it is right or wrong but because the triggering factor to commit murder is the ego. All commandments can be narrowed down to the primate's instinctive drive, even the two first commandments. No image is simply because the instincts tend to favor portraying an image of everything. And idolization is a human fallacy. The human is an animal that conforms to hierarchy, and this behavior should be avoided. Therefore Quran tells people to "Be As (It)" (allah) like I told above in reference to the first commandment, which comes as a blasphemy to most people used to the sectarian dogma. Otherwise humans simply tend to be like a flock of sheep, or rather a group of ravenous wolves with a (often deluded) patriarch in command.
One of my biggest struggles so far is reconciling what could be my new beliefs with my sexuality. I have for some time known that I was homosexual and have for years tried to correct myself through therapy (both self administered and otherwise) to no avail.
I have had my theories that homosexuality is innate and nothing you can affect. Since you seem to sincerely been trying to "correct" yourself it may give fuel to the theory.
What I do know is that the underlying soul is actually genderless. Sexes is only in the "flesh" and if you are "released" then you are not bound to it. That is why sexuality may be best not overly promoted in this life. But it happens that animals in some cases display homosexuality based on empirical evidence.
I am not a person who speaks down on homosexuals and it is likely a natural phenomenon. In earlier posts people think I oppose homosexuality, but I never did but I was informative and concise, and sometimes a bit blunt. I said that if one is homosexual then they could simply refrain from all sexuality and devote themselves because it serves no purpose with homosexual intercourse. It has to do with my spiritual view of sexuality at whole and nothing against homosexuals. If one gives in nevertheless to please themselves then it is giving in to the instinctive drive (satan). That is yet the same if I "do myself" in the shower. It has no purpose except instinctive pleasure.
In my view any love between consenting adults must be beautiful in the eyes of God regardless of the sexes (y?all may disagree).
Real love should be on spiritual level and not in the flesh. It does not matter what are the genders since souls are genderless. Of course the ancient saying said "Man and woman should separate from their parents and cleave unto each other and become as one body", but however that saying probably needs to be checked for its interpretation. Homosexual intercourse serves no purpose however except to biologically arouse the two animals to bond with each other according to the biological "programming". Heterosexual intercourse procreates children, in best case, unless one is barren. Just like the Sustainer initiated life we are somewhat told to continue to procreate children as part of the test, yet controlling the beast in us. I consider it a rather dull procedure knowing the truth.
Not sure what happens when science begins to be able to make artificial wombs and procreate children in huge cylinders. Yet the genetics all stem from one source, with physical genders differentiated by chromosomes.
Does this make me a Muslim?
The word Muslim literally means to "be sound". It has nothing to do with religious nonsense. It tends to favor clarity of mind rather than physically since most words in Arabic mainly have an abstract implication. The opposite of Muslim would be deluded or kafar as I interpret it. A deluded person may do Za-Lam-Miim (evil/darkness) due to the "fog" around their mind.
Do I need witnesses should I decide to formally accept Islam as my religion?
No, since the Sustainer (Rabb) is enough for a witness of your proclamation. In fact you do not even have to say a word but only conform.
Does my acceptance of my sexuality prohibit me from becoming one?
It does not have anything to do with that. It is your indulgence however that determines your soundness.
I understand to some degree the Quranist view of prayer (three times daily, sunrise, midday, sunset right?), but how exactly should I?
For that question you have to ask someone else. I deem the "salat" word to refer to something other than a ritualistic prayer on timing. Historically, people even those who are not involved in religious ritualism often recite a remembrance to themselves in the morning and evening and perhaps during the meals at day such as the prayer suggested by Jesus. Personally I "pray" by reading and interpreting Quran to remind myself of what it says, which I do quite often several hours per day, but I do not believe in any compulsory or prescribed system of rituals.
I also worry about persecution both in my own family and other Muslims if I choose to go through with accepting Quranism as the correct school of thought. Anyone have advice for that?
Depends on how open you are. Should you choose to do like Jesus you may as well end up murdered. It does not matter for if you begin to live openly like Jesus you would long for your death.
Personally I would prefer to not be a hypocrite by saying I adhere to a faith while I do not. But if you are in a land of persecution you may avoid unnecessary openness. Even Jesus was shrewdly forming his utterances to confound the clerics.
Anyone have any commentary or advice? Who here is a Quranist (if anyone)? I appreciate you reading this squabble. Hopefully this all makes sense.
Not sure if I would label myself "Quranist" however. I avoid labels at all. But I try to be sound (muslim).
In the end you may think I am merely rambling and nothing I wrote makes any sense to you. I have a habit of either annoying people or confusing them.
Be well
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Listen to their arguments but don't let them force you into anything.
This is a good advice. We should avoid being sheep. Unfortunately I feel that many people are sheep against their will and knowledge because of a grand deception of the past.
But often we have the right to freedom of expression.
Be well
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Walikum Salaam,
Homosexuality is always going to be a contentious issue, but should not effect ones own beliefs. Yes, the Quran outlines sodomy as a sin, sodomy is not defined by one particular sexuality. It does however, have the issue that for a male-male relationship it presents a dilemma in the event of need of physical and/or emotional gratification between two people. It is not something that I, as someone who has only had heterosexual relationships although believing I would be "ok" being in love with another man is able to comprehend from my own current experiences. All I can say is that there is nothing specifically against people who don't fit the heterosexual norm in the Quran, belief in God is belief in God and if you choose to define yourself as a Muslim, Quranist, or a God fearing person then you can do so whether you are straight or gay.
The concept of throwing homosexuals off cliffs is actually a fairly modern one, dating from Sudanese rebellions against the British in the 19th century, and before that had little tract in the Muslim world. There has even been Caliphs of past days which it was generally known about their escapades with other men without the need of removing them from power or their palaces.
My honest belief is that 'religion' should be basic, it does not need to be defined by ever increasing rules of acceptability, or liberalisation. Remembering God is the first element, doing good for others is the second, keeping oneself from evil is the third. That does not mean that we can't be really complicated people! I have found myself labelling myself a Quranist/God alone for awhile now, but I'm extremely political both as a British Nationalist and as theological Islamist; the idea of a political Islamic state does not scare me, but at the same time don't honestly believe the UK (or the US) would be the target of such a creation nor do I promote it as such.
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Walikum Salaam,
Homosexuality is always going to be a contentious issue, but should not effect ones own beliefs. Yes, the Quran outlines sodomy as a sin, sodomy is not defined by one particular sexuality. It does however, have the issue that for a male-male relationship it presents a dilemma in the event of need of physical and/or emotional gratification between two people. It is not something that I, as someone who has only had heterosexual relationships although believing I would be "ok" being in love with another man is able to comprehend from my own current experiences. All I can say is that there is nothing specifically against people who don't fit the heterosexual norm in the Quran, belief in God is belief in God and if you choose to define yourself as a Muslim, Quranist, or a God fearing person then you can do so whether you are straight or gay.
The concept of throwing homosexuals off cliffs is actually a fairly modern one, dating from Sudanese rebellions against the British in the 19th century, and before that had little tract in the Muslim world. There has even been Caliphs of past days which it was generally known about their escapades with other men without the need of removing them from power or their palaces.
My honest belief is that 'religion' should be basic, it does not need to be defined by ever increasing rules of acceptability, or liberalisation. Remembering God is the first element, doing good for others is the second, keeping oneself from evil is the third. That does not mean that we can't be really complicated people! I have found myself labelling myself a Quranist/God alone for awhile now, but I'm extremely political both as a British Nationalist and as theological Islamist; the idea of a political Islamic state does not scare me, but at the same time don't honestly believe the UK (or the US) would be the target of such a creation nor do I promote it as such.
Thank you for offering your view point. I appreciate all that have commented and messaged me.
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Salaam Armbandk.
With your appreciation of God and our relationship with Him, with your understanding of the message of Jesus and Muhammad (i.e. Qur?an) you are probably better off in terms of faith and understanding than many people in the mainstream ?Islam?. The rituals of the ?Muslims? which includes, daily salaat rituals and Ramadan fasting, ?minimum? jakaat standards and recommendation for visit and hujj of Mecca, sacrifice of domestic animals, prohibition on pork, intoxication, gambling and divination ? are all prescribed so that the community can have a standard ?operating procedure? on how to rehears / recall / remember Allah / God in everyday life. This is not a ?mandatory? framework which God demands from us. In other words these are all means to an end not the end in itself. The end goal for being a ?muslim ? is to have faith in God, to have faith in the last day and to act righteously.
If you are convinced that Qur?an is the word of God, it makes all the sense that you give the Islamic rituals a try ? because at least the legacy of these rituals stretch back to the messenger who brought the message of Qur?an. And as a practicing Muslim I can share with you my assessment that indeed these rituals are helpful (if performed sincerely). In that case a ?formal conversion? makes sense. But be rest assured, you can be a perfect muslim by also following the teaching of Jesus (as long as you do not get astray with the veiled polytheism that you have come to recognize) ? because fundamentally there is no difference between the messengers ? they all taught the same message. The challenge with the conversion bit though is that ? as soon as you get in touch with mainstream ?Islamic? clergy they will try to sell to you sectorial ideologies like - ?Muhammad is the Greatest Messenger?, ?He invalidated all previous Messengers?, ?If one doesn?t perform ritual one will go to hell?, ?if you recite shahada immediately all sins are forgiven? ? all these non-sense which starkly contradict the teaching of Qur?an. Because like any other so called ?mainstream religions? the vast majority of the clergy of Islam are also obsessed with over-ritualification of the religion, over glorification of the messenger and their own line of teachers and most importantly monopolization of the faith so that their political and economic interests are protected.
Since you have already recognized the corruption of the clergy in one religion, I have confidence on you that you can avoid the similar trap set out by the ?Islamic? clergy. So, my recommendation for you is that you go through the formal ?conversion? to take benefit of the ?Islamic lifestyle?. And the best tool in fighting the corruption is of course the Qur?an ? if you can stick to its message strongly. However, always have faith in your God. The God who created this universe, the God who brought you to this universe and given you your own personal conscience, judgment and sense of right and wrong is the true God. Do not mend your path to worship an external alien God from a book (even Qur?an). If you decide to accept the Qur?an as the word of God it should only be because it calls you to your God. Let me share with you a few of my favorite verses from Qur?an in this regard. This section is particularly relevant for those who are seeking a way towards the message of Qur?an.
3190 Indeed in the designing of the heavens and the earth and in the alternation of the night and daylight are surely signs for the men of discretion.
3191 Those who remember Allah standing or sitting or (reclining) on their sides and who ponder about the creation of the heavens and the earth ?Our Master, you have not created this in deceit. Exalted are You! Then preserve us from the suffering of the fire.?
3192 ?Our Master, indeed whomever You admit into the fire, then surely You have disgraced him and there are no helpers for the wrongdoers.?
3193 ?Our Master, indeed we have heard a summoner summoning, towards faith, saying, ?Put faith in your Master.? So we put faith. Our Master, then forgive our misdeeds from us and suppress our faults for us and let us pass away along with the pious.?
3194 ?Our Master, also (please) give us what You promised us through your messengers and (please) not disgrace us on the day of rising - indeed You do not break the (promised) appointment.?
3195 So, their Master responded to them saying, ?I do not let go waste the actions of the performers among you (be it) from a male or a female- some of you from others. So those who emigrated or were driven out from their homes or were afflicted in My path or fought or were killed ? surely I will suppress their faults for them and surely I will admit them into the garden (with) streams flowing underneath them ? a remuneration from near Allah. And Allah ? with Him is the nicest remuneration.
3196 Let the turn-around of those who repress (faith) in the land not deceive you.
3197 (It is) a little amusement, (but) later their refuge is Hell and vile is (such) a destination!
3198 Whereas those who are conscious of their Master ? for them - a garden with streams flowing underneath it - permanently in there a lodging from near Allah ? and whatever is from Allah is best for the pious.
3199 And indeed among the fraternity of the book are surely those who have put faith in Allah and what has been sent down to you and what was sent down to them; humble to Allah - they do not exchange the signs of Allah with what values little. They are the ones ? for them their reward is with their Master. Indeed Allah is swift in measuring.
3200 O! Those who have put faith ? be patient, and enduring, and tenacious. And be conscious of Allah - so that you may be successful.
(My personal translation, emphasis added, cross checking is recommended.)
As for the homosexuality is concerned ? you are much more knowledgeable on the topic than I am, so I?d refrain from giving you any suggestion on that matter. Have faith in God and seek his guidance, In sha Allah you?ll be led aright.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
if you want to pronounce yourself a muslim, there are agencies out there. they will help you out. in quran
2.128 - ?Our God, make us two of the muslims; and make a section from among our descendants muslims unto You; and teach us how to pray before You; and forgive us. You are Most Forgiving, ever Merciful.?
this is a prayer for us in quran regarding 'muslim'. only God can make us a muslim. so turn to Him in your heart; wherein He brought you yearning. the heart is the place He brought you a feel and so turn to it and listen privately His Solace. that which you hear or read or see confirms that in your heart from your God and gives you peace is the the external confirmation or sign you seek.
2.10 - In their hearts is the disease. And Allah has furthered their disease; to them is the painful agony because they lie.
6.42 - And indeed, We sent to the people before you; and We seized them with diseases and poverty - perchance they shall be humble.
homosexuality is a disease; humble before Him to His satisfaction He will get rid of your disease.
5.16 - With this Allah guides all those who seek His satisfaction, in the peaceful path; and brings them out of the dark to the light by His will; and guides them to the straight path.
whatever said above there is nothing you can do except making it as a heartful-prayer so that you are guided privately by your God towards His straight path.
read quran daily in your native tongue seeking God for His Guidance. we read quran to get guidance to make our life easy. the guidance from quran does not complicate or make harder our life. if it makes you harder, be patience, and know for sure it is not from quran. come back to your heart and listen your inner voice for right guidance from your God Alone; it makes your life easier.
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Peace Ambrandk.
I offer something to read Even though Qoran is the best read/guide..)
http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/simple-and-universal-message/
The Lord does everything for you. You choose/seek Him and you will not be disappointed.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Salaam Armbandk.
With your appreciation of God and our relationship with Him, with your understanding of the message of Jesus and Muhammad (i.e. Qur?an) you are probably better off in terms of faith and understanding than many people in the mainstream ?Islam?. The rituals of the ?Muslims? which includes, daily salaat rituals and Ramadan fasting, ?minimum? jakaat standards and recommendation for visit and hujj of Mecca, sacrifice of domestic animals, prohibition on pork, intoxication, gambling and divination ? are all prescribed so that the community can have a standard ?operating procedure? on how to rehears / recall / remember Allah / God in everyday life. This is not a ?mandatory? framework which God demands from us. In other words these are all means to an end not the end in itself. The end goal for being a ?muslim ? is to have faith in God, to have faith in the last day and to act righteously.
If you are convinced that Qur?an is the word of God, it makes all the sense that you give the Islamic rituals a try ? because at least the legacy of these rituals stretch back to the messenger who brought the message of Qur?an. And as a practicing Muslim I can share with you my assessment that indeed these rituals are helpful (if performed sincerely). In that case a ?formal conversion? makes sense. But be rest assured, you can be a perfect muslim by also following the teaching of Jesus (as long as you do not get astray with the veiled polytheism that you have come to recognize) ? because fundamentally there is no difference between the messengers ? they all taught the same message. The challenge with the conversion bit though is that ? as soon as you get in touch with mainstream ?Islamic? clergy they will try to sell to you sectorial ideologies like - ?Muhammad is the Greatest Messenger?, ?He invalidated all previous Messengers?, ?If one doesn?t perform ritual one will go to hell?, ?if you recite shahada immediately all sins are forgiven? ? all these non-sense which starkly contradict the teaching of Qur?an. Because like any other so called ?mainstream religions? the vast majority of the clergy of Islam are also obsessed with over-ritualification of the religion, over glorification of the messenger and their own line of teachers and most importantly monopolization of the faith so that their political and economic interests are protected.
Since you have already recognized the corruption of the clergy in one religion, I have confidence on you that you can avoid the similar trap set out by the ?Islamic? clergy. So, my recommendation for you is that you go through the formal ?conversion? to take benefit of the ?Islamic lifestyle?. And the best tool in fighting the corruption is of course the Qur?an ? if you can stick to its message strongly. However, always have faith in your God. The God who created this universe, the God who brought you to this universe and given you your own personal conscience, judgment and sense of right and wrong is the true God. Do not mend your path to worship an external alien God from a book (even Qur?an). If you decide to accept the Qur?an as the word of God it should only be because it calls you to your God. Let me share with you a few of my favorite verses from Qur?an in this regard. This section is particularly relevant for those who are seeking a way towards the message of Qur?an.
As for the homosexuality is concerned ? you are much more knowledgeable on the topic than I am, so I?d refrain from giving you any suggestion on that matter. Have faith in God and seek his guidance, In sha Allah you?ll be led aright.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanThank you for your comment. I especially like the verses you quoted.
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Me too! Hope everything is going well! I'm listening to some Heavy Metal by a band called Skull Fist.
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Peace Ambrandk,
Welcome to the Forum, and may God guide you to his truth.
I felt like there were many similarities in your story to my own life, Much of my family are christian, and while i respect and am thankfull to God that he taught me Good morals through my upbringing and In the bible, I never realy believed in Jesus as any part of God or son of God, even when i did believe for a short period i didnt realy believe.
Before converting to islam i struggled with mental health issues, i was diagnosed with Manic Bi-Polar, however God healed me from it after finding Islam, now when i look back man i was realy realy lost, but Praise God, he has healed me alot.
I also understand the depression/disillusioned feelings, which i have had much in the past as well, although, again God is gradualy healing me and the more i believe and trust in Him, the most i strive in His cause and the more i read Quran, it realy helps alot.
I definitely understand the yearning for the Quran. When i read it i had the feeling that it was true, much like you describe, and the more and more i read it i realised it was truth. And I gradualy came to the understanding of God alone, and following the Quran.
There is no 'formal process' of becoming a Muslim , it is a state of total submission to our creator. I would just stick to the Quran as your only source of religious guidance.
In terms of your sexuality, I am 100% against it, and i believe that so is God, as far as i understand it is described as an abomination in the Quran.
I personaly struggled with sexuality issues when i was younger, and i am of the opinion now that my choice to engage in such things when i was younger was as a result of a very messed up childhood, with Bad role models, if you understand. I dont know it is something i would like to understand more on, simply to understand my past, and myself. However its between you and God, and you are still a Human being just like all of us, and anything i can do to help you in your search for truth dont hesitate to ask.
Peace, may God guide you to the straight path