WHAT DOES QURAN SAY ABOUT BIBLICAL CORRUPTION
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Yeah, I wonder how many people got to the part about the concubine of the guy who was gang raped all night to death then chopped up by her husband who handed her over to be gang raped and considered just, sending her body parts to all the "Judges" lol What about Abraham pimping out his wife, or Lot being drunk and his daughters doing incest, and Noah cursing his grandson because his son saw him drunk and naked, or Jacob tricking his father and betraying his brother and stealing his blessings even by force by depriving him of food, and sleeping with another woman because he couldn't see her quite well enough, and other vile crap in a book of endless crap with entire sections devoted to sprinkling blood on curtains and killing your children and whatever else.
To hell with that putrid book and everyone who loves it, it is pure Satanic trash.
Thank God there is the Qur'an. Those who despise the Qur'an, I hope they suffer. I have nothing but malice for them, who hate a book of such grace and beauty and love wickedness because of their diseased understandings.
The Bible is so scant on anything good in it, its so deprived, its even worse than being in the dessert, its like being in a sewer or garbage dump. Even a garbage dump is less morally perverted and filthy than the Bible.
Who here loves that book and speaks of it fondly?
I do.
Because I have faith in Qur?an and because Qur?an asks us to have faith in what was sent down before us.
Whatever vile things you say about Bible ? equally bad things and worse can be said about hadith ? which is the new ?bible? for majority of the ?Mainstream Muslims?.
Even if we talk specifically about Qur?an, faultfinders can bad mouth the book for unfair treatment of women, promoting killing and hatred and so on. It is all a matter of how the reader takes the text.
On the other hand, those who are rightly guided by their Master will find guidance in Qur?an, in Hadith and even in Bible. The same Bible that inspired crusaders, did also inspire Florence Nightingle and Mother Teressa. The same Qur'an that inspires ISIS and Boko Haram also inspires you and me.
Ever heard of ?Jefferson Bible?? If not it would be a good idea to find out which ?Bible? served as the spiritual backbone for the establishment of the United States.
If we turn away from the Bible calling it ?satanic? ? we will lose the teaching of the Christ. If we lose the teaching of the Christ we will lose much of the context upon which Qur'anic philosophy is built and it will be one step easier to promote ?jihadism? based on arbitrary interpretation of Qur?an. The teaching of Qur?an must be understood in light of what Christ has taught us. Qur?an never encourages us to take it in isolation ? it always encourages to have faith in what has been sent down to us as well as what was sent down before us. So, do not be deluded that Qur?an has rendered the Christ irrelevant ? The Christ never died. No! Allah raised him towards Him and Allah happens to be Mighty, Wise. And not is there any among the fraternity of the book - but to place faith in him for sure - before his death; and on the day of rising, he will be a witness upon them.
The scripture and doctrine of the Jews and Christians have their fair share of corruption ? like do those of the people who call themselves "Muslim". But wholesale rejection and bad mouthing about the scripture of other religions will not make us more ?righteous?.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Yes, Good logic we must take whtever is confirmed by the Qur'an but that not only in the case of the bible, but in all cases. There are many religious traditions which contain WONDERS, MARVELLOUS GUIDE, and people reject it outright with no compunction, for the sake of some thing that shocks. Many bible preachers throw away whole religious traditions on account of some obviously wrong saying and psuh the bible down many throats in replacement for much better thinkings.
So what we say about the bible should be universally applied and not make the bible into something sacred sas against the whole series of religious traditions, which if I am not worng they all also come from some real revelation and may have been aprtially corrupted.
I have nothing against the bible per se, but I hve a lot into it being made "the book" not just against th Qur'an but in oblivious of all the mercies revealed by God all over humanity. I hold that not against the bible but against the bible pushers. It is just one book or religious tradition amonst many and certainly not necessarily the best, and when I say the best I do not say against the Qur'an, the Qur'an is the khatam, the contrast to all revelations or traditions, but against other traditions. It is only understandable through the cultural rule of the bible "people", minly of european stock that rule the world culturally, economically, politically, etc. To sum up an imperial dominion, which rules in the religious as well as in others domins.
So the bible is not just a spiritual (not all of it) book, but the "spiritual book" of the de facto empire. That must not be forgotten. Which again should not be hold against the bible per se, but should be taken into account if we do want to have a real perspective on human religion. Human religion is not the Qur'an and the bible, but the Qur'an and ALL the religious, spiritual and inspired traditions of all the peoples of humanity.
Salaam
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I do.
Because I have faith in Qur?an and because Qur?an asks us to have faith in what was sent down before us.
Whatever vile things you say about Bible ? equally bad things and worse can be said about hadith ? which is the new ?bible? for majority of the ?Mainstream Muslims?.
Even if we talk specifically about Qur?an, faultfinders can bad mouth the book for unfair treatment of women, promoting killing and hatred and so on. It is all a matter of how the reader takes the text.
On the other hand, those who are rightly guided by their Master will find guidance in Qur?an, in Hadith and even in Bible. The same Bible that inspired crusaders, did also inspire Florence Nightingle and Mother Teressa. The same Qur'an that inspires ISIS and Boko Haram also inspires you and me.
Ever heard of ?Jefferson Bible?? If not it would be a good idea to find out which ?Bible? served as the spiritual backbone for the establishment of the United States.
If we turn away from the Bible calling it ?satanic? ? we will lose the teaching of the Christ. If we lose the teaching of the Christ we will lose much of the context upon which Qur'anic philosophy is built and it will be one step easier to promote ?jihadism? based on arbitrary interpretation of Qur?an. The teaching of Qur?an must be understood in light of what Christ has taught us. Qur?an never encourages us to take it in isolation ? it always encourages to have faith in what has been sent down to us as well as what was sent down before us. So, do not be deluded that Qur?an has rendered the Christ irrelevant ? The Christ never died. No! Allah raised him towards Him and Allah happens to be Mighty, Wise. And not is there any among the fraternity of the book - but to place faith in him for sure - before his death; and on the day of rising, he will be a witness upon them.
The scripture and doctrine of the Jews and Christians have their fair share of corruption ? like do those of the people who call themselves "Muslim". But wholesale rejection and bad mouthing about the scripture of other religions will not make us more ?righteous?.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanJust to clarify though, the Hadith honestly (however crude and ridiculous it is) does not have anything as close to the level of stuff in the Bible, particularly the Old Testament but including parts of the New Testament slightly as well.
It makes good sense that if the Bible is the "spiritual backbone" of "The Great Satan" America, that the whole nation and its foundation was corruption from the start. Which started with genocide in the Biblical model, where the Native Americans were taken to be the new pagan Canaanites to be slaughtered en masse in the name of God's Country.
I think people just try to soothe themselves. One mustn't sit in approval of injustice and evil. What the Bible and the Hadith says which is good, no argument about it, but what it says that is vile, an argument should be made and it should be recognized as vile.
Mother Theresa, there is some bad writing about her too, of how she allowed people to suffer instead of getting them the proper medical treatments and things of that sort, you can read about that (brought up by Atheists and others, and yes, they will say bad things about the Qur'an too).
The "Teaching of Christ" is certainly worth "losing", because if we were to follow it closely in at least a literal way (as some less cowardly or "simple minded" people might), we would then chop off our hands and feet, and kill ourselves too. To hell with "Christ", the false deity of their imagination, just like the other "Gods" they adore.
Look what a cruel and despicable person he was in the New Testament, and they praise him and glorify him, even Atheists often speak fondly of this character. Look how he treated his mother, his associates, and how a woman begging for help for her child he ignored her and made her crawl and then insulted her on top of it and praised the wicked ones who had tormented those people throughout the Bible. This is the role model? Has anyone read what he supposedly said? How poor his explanations were, how idiotic the religion proposed?
(I believe in the protection and maintenance of the Bible and studying it and keeping it safe) BURN THE BIBLE! Throw it in the fire! Just like Jesus supposedly said that if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out, take that sinful wicked book and destroy it.
I also like when people burn the Qur'an in their ignorance, destroying their ability to read it. Only a truly Malicious Force could think of something as insidiously simple as that. A malice even greater than mine.
The teachings of the Qur'an should be taken in light of what "Christ taught us"?
Oh alright
"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.?? Luke 1927
Boko Haram it is! Hail to ISIS (Throne/Dominion of AMUN).
No! Everything should be interpreted in "light of" goodness and compassion and justice tempered with mercy. Not Christ, Not Hadith, Not anything but goodness. If the Qur'an says something, we take the interpretation that is most useful, but we don't lie about it and say that it never said such and such. If the Qur'an gave some terrible advice, then we should point it out.
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Just as we have in the bible a chosen people, it seems that some people behave with the bible as if ti was the chosen book, just like that. Not for this or for that but that it is chosen.
Again what was revealed before is everything that was revesled not just those things in the bible that we think were revealed, and even more than that. In the praise of the bible everything becomes a whole that is chosen, no matter the straneous things and nothing telling us what is purported to be revealed and what is purported not to be revealed.
Why do we disregard other religious and spiritual heritage and put the bible in a pedestal from which much better things are excluded?
Salaam
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Salamun Alaikum.
It makes good sense that if the Bible is the "spiritual backbone" of "The Great Satan" America, that the whole nation and its foundation was corruption from the start. Which started with genocide in the Biblical model, where the Native Americans were taken to be the new pagan Canaanites to be slaughtered en masse in the name of God's Country.
Wow so now we are adopting Iranian Foreign policy language as our unofficial ?tounge?? Why don?t you do yourself a big favor then. Just like you were preaching Man of Faith to practice what he writes the other day ? why don?t you do yourself a big favor by detaching all association from the ?Great Satan? and seek refuge in God?s land in Iran / Saudi Arabia / Iraq or Syria? Or are you convinced Satan has taken over the entire world and God has been defeated?
The teaching of Jesus the Christ has shown mankind that ?God? is not a deity to keep isolated in the places of worship ? ?God? is our ?Father? (Originator) whom we need to carry in our hearts and whom we need to search by serving and helping and loving our fellow men. That is the path of righteousness, that is the path of Christ, that is the path of islam. Allah is your Master and my Master, let us be slave to Him ? that is the straight route. This core teaching is the driving force behind much of the concepts of ?Freedom, and Human right and Justice? that has now become the hallmark of the secular West. The non-believers would like to discredit the Christ and the religious movements in general ? but without these ?divine? interventions mankind would have remained in the barbaric dark ages.
Then there are those who have understood this message, and those who have deviated by being slave to a false image of ?Jesus? instead of upholding their God gifted sense of right and wrong. As for those of us who followed Jesus by adopting his message ? they will be above the faith repressors till the day of rising. As for those who repressed faith ? soon we will be gathered together and God will judge among us concerning what in the teaching of the messengers that we were differing (Ref 355).
I think people just try to soothe themselves. One mustn't sit in approval of injustice and evil. What the Bible and the Hadith says which is good, no argument about it, but what it says that is vile, an argument should be made and it should be recognized as vile.
?What the Bible and the Hadith says which is good, no argument about it, but what it says that is vile, an argument should be made and it should be recognized as vile.? That is exactly what I am saying, that is exactly what Jefferson said. But you are not saying that. Just like as you habitually do you are constantly shifting between stances and making confusing statements that contradict each other. When you call the Bible stanaic and call to throw it in fire ? there hardly is any intension to recognize the ?Good? in it. Blind hatred is equally harmful as blind faith.
Mother Theresa, there is some bad writing about her too, of how she allowed people to suffer instead of getting them the proper medical treatments and things of that sort, you can read about that (brought up by Atheists and others, and yes, they will say bad things about the Qur'an too).
Oh Yah, there is some bad writing about Muhammad too, of how he encouraged underage marriage, polygamy, killing and torture and things of that sort. Those who live in the garbage, eat the garbage and vomit the garbage. Take them as your allies if that?s what you are up to.
I?ll any day take Mother Terresa or Mahatma Gandhi, or Nelson Mendela as my ally above self-proclaimed ?Foremost Muslims? in online forums; and I wish my Master put me in company of the righteous ? today and on the day of rising.
The "Teaching of Christ" is certainly worth "losing", because if we were to follow it closely in at least a literal way (as some less cowardly or "simple minded" people might), we would then chop off our hands and feet, and kill ourselves too. To hell with "Christ", the false deity of their imagination, just like the other "Gods" they adore.
Look what a cruel and despicable person he was in the New Testament, and they praise him and glorify him, even Atheists often speak fondly of this character. Look how he treated his mother, his associates, and how a woman begging for help for her child he ignored her and made her crawl and then insulted her on top of it and praised the wicked ones who had tormented those people throughout the Bible. This is the role model? Has anyone read what he supposedly said? How poor his explanations were, how idiotic the religion proposed?
(I believe in the protection and maintenance of the Bible and studying it and keeping it safe) BURN THE BIBLE! Throw it in the fire! Just like Jesus supposedly said that if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out, take that sinful wicked book and destroy it.
I also like when people burn the Qur'an in their ignorance, destroying their ability to read it. Only a truly Malicious Force could think of something as insidiously simple as that. A malice even greater than mine.
Deviating from the teaching of the Christ has been as much a reason for the downfall of the people who call themselves ?Muslims?, as much as it has been taking the ?unauthorized? teachers / imams / scholars as the partner of God. Reverting back to show-off rituals and over-ritualization, fanatic genital mutation, misunderstanding of riba, fanaticism about food restrictions ? all can be almost directly attributed to departure from the message of the Christ. As far as I am concerned, I am as much a follower of Jesus as much I am of Muhammad or any other messenger of God for that matter. I have faith in them and I do not differentiate between any of them.
4150 Indeed those who repress (faith) in Allah and His messengers and intend that they differentiate between Allah and His messenger and say, ?We put faith in some and we repress (faith) in others? and intend that they take a path between that ?
4151 They are the ones ? they truly are repressing (faith) and We have prepared a humiliating suffering for the ones who repress (faith).
4152 But those who have put faith in Allah and His messengers and they do not differentiate between any of them; they are the ones ? He will soon give them their rewards And Allah happens to be Forgiving, Affectionate.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Let our paths be separated then.
The teachings of the Qur'an should be taken in light of what "Christ taught us"?
Oh alright
"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.?? Luke 1927
Boko Haram it is! Hail to ISIS (Throne/Dominion of AMUN).
Yes of course
533 It is only the repayment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and become busy spreading corruption on earth that they are killed, or crucified, or their hands and their feet from opposition are cut-off or they be exiled from the earth. That is for them (the) disgrace in the world and for them ? a great suffering in the hereafter.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Then should have faith in part of the book and repress faith in part?
Those who fight against the teaching of love, compassion and fellow-feeling ? the message brought to humanity from our common Master they do not deserve anything better in life, it does not matter whether they are fighting under the banner of Nazis or KKK or Boko haram or Shiv Shena.
No! Everything should be interpreted in "light of" goodness and compassion and justice tempered with mercy. Not Christ, Not Hadith, Not anything but goodness. If the Qur'an says something, we take the interpretation that is most useful, but we don't lie about it and say that it never said such and such. If the Qur'an gave some terrible advice, then we should point it out.
This my friend is a good note. But then again it is Christ who taught us that goodness and compassion and justice tempered with mercy is the ONLY path to God. If you read with due sincerity you?ll find that is the message of the Gospels just as much as that is the message of the Qur?an. But if you approach the scripture with a distorted mind seeking your own interpretation and looking for quotes to dishonor and discredit the scriptures ? then remember, Allah deviates whomever He wills and Allah guides whomever He wills and Allah is the Mighty authority of Retribution.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Freedomstands,
How can you call Jesus of the Biblical Gospels a bad man? What in it is fierce? He taught very good things.
Overall he teaches Gnostic thought however. In fact very closely. And he came to a Gnostic community where people practiced in general to be minimalistic, even if people often were hypocrites, especially the clergy and scholars.
He calls physical/exaggerated worshipers of a deity for Pagans. Which is not a curse word but a definition for people who are materialistic/worldly.
He said "return to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God to God" subtly rebuking the Paganism in both practices.
Actually Quran also teaches Gnostic style faith underneath the fabricated language.
Be well
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Salamun Alaikum.
Wow so now we are adopting Iranian Foreign policy language as our unofficial ?tounge?? Why don?t you do yourself a big favor then. Just like you were preaching Man of Faith to practice what he writes the other day ? why don?t you do yourself a big favor by detaching all association from the ?Great Satan? and seek refuge in God?s land in Iran / Saudi Arabia / Iraq or Syria? Or are you convinced Satan has taken over the entire world and God has been defeated?
The teaching of Jesus the Christ has shown mankind that ?God? is not a deity to keep isolated in the places of worship ? ?God? is our ?Father? (Originator) whom we need to carry in our hearts and whom we need to search by serving and helping and loving our fellow men. That is the path of righteousness, that is the path of Christ, that is the path of islam. Allah is your Master and my Master, let us be slave to Him ? that is the straight route. This core teaching is the driving force behind much of the concepts of ?Freedom, and Human right and Justice? that has now become the hallmark of the secular West. The non-believers would like to discredit the Christ and the religious movements in general ? but without these ?divine? interventions mankind would have remained in the barbaric dark ages.
Then there are those who have understood this message, and those who have deviated by being slave to a false image of ?Jesus? instead of upholding their God gifted sense of right and wrong. As for those of us who followed Jesus by adopting his message ? they will be above the faith repressors till the day of rising. As for those who repressed faith ? soon we will be gathered together and God will judge among us concerning what in the teaching of the messengers that we were differing (Ref 355).
?What the Bible and the Hadith says which is good, no argument about it, but what it says that is vile, an argument should be made and it should be recognized as vile.? That is exactly what I am saying, that is exactly what Jefferson said. But you are not saying that. Just like as you habitually do you are constantly shifting between stances and making confusing statements that contradict each other. When you call the Bible stanaic and call to throw it in fire ? there hardly is any intension to recognize the ?Good? in it. Blind hatred is equally harmful as blind faith.
Oh Yah, there is some bad writing about Muhammad too, of how he encouraged underage marriage, polygamy, killing and torture and things of that sort. Those who live in the garbage, eat the garbage and vomit the garbage. Take them as your allies if that?s what you are up to.
I?ll any day take Mother Terresa or Mahatma Gandhi, or Nelson Mendela as my ally above self-proclaimed ?Foremost Muslims? in online forums; and I wish my Master put me in company of the righteous ? today and on the day of rising.
Deviating from the teaching of the Christ has been as much a reason for the downfall of the people who call themselves ?Muslims?, as much as it has been taking the ?unauthorized? teachers / imams / scholars as the partner of God. Reverting back to show-off rituals and over-ritualization, fanatic genital mutation, misunderstanding of riba, fanaticism about food restrictions ? all can be almost directly attributed to departure from the message of the Christ. As far as I am concerned, I am as much a follower of Jesus as much I am of Muhammad or any other messenger of God for that matter. I have faith in them and I do not differentiate between any of them.
Let our paths be separated then.
Yes of course
Then should have faith in part of the book and repress faith in part?
Those who fight against the teaching of love, compassion and fellow-feeling ? the message brought to humanity from our common Master they do not deserve anything better in life, it does not matter whether they are fighting under the banner of Nazis or KKK or Boko haram or Shiv Shena.
This my friend is a good note. But then again it is Christ who taught us that goodness and compassion and justice tempered with mercy is the ONLY path to God. If you read with due sincerity you?ll find that is the message of the Gospels just as much as that is the message of the Qur?an. But if you approach the scripture with a distorted mind seeking your own interpretation and looking for quotes to dishonor and discredit the scriptures ? then remember, Allah deviates whomever He wills and Allah guides whomever He wills and Allah is the Mighty authority of Retribution.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanHaha, I found this email really fun to read, thank you! I will respond to a bunch of points insha'Allah!
"Salamun Alaikum."
Shalom.
"Wow so now we are adopting Iranian Foreign policy language as our unofficial ?tounge??"
Sure, why not? I adopt lots of things, like Luciferian and Satanic terminology. I can hijack just about anything. I don't live in America currently, but America is a pretty vile nation that goes around making lots of trouble in the world and has for a great many years, they have killed so many people and supported corporations that have also gone around killing and harassing so many of the poor people of the world. It is not a matter of liking them or their sick government. They are truly an evil nation in existence in the world today, and most people seem to recognize that hopefully. "The Great Satan" is a perfectly appropriate, albeit a little funny, nomenclature to attach to them. I could also call them "The Great Sh*ts" of the world. It isn't out of Jealousy. Just look at what they promote, and what they do. Anyone who supports their actions is actually a criminal and a true terrorist. Go read about all their history and actions, they are no one to be fond of at all. I can list so many of their crimes, they are IN THE PROCESS of conducting crimes even to this day, government funded and government ordered crimes. They have done atrocity after atrocity, are you kidding me trying to act like they are any good and not worthy of the title of Great Enemies of the poor people of the world? For goodness sakes, buy some black panties, the pink ones are getting old now.
"Why don?t you do yourself a big favor then. Just like you were preaching Man of Faith to practice what he writes the other day ? why don?t you do yourself a big favor by detaching all association from the ?Great Satan? and seek refuge in God?s land in Iran / Saudi Arabia / Iraq or Syria? Or are you convinced Satan has taken over the entire world and God has been defeated?"
Well, Man of Faith preaches something particularly. I do not preach "leave America" or anything like that. Yusuf and other people lived and worked in kaffir countries, and yes evil is everywhere, it isn't exclusive to America, but America has a huge influence in the world spreading evil, the people living in the country are paying taxes but generally are just trying to survive and live, its the government of America that is generally extremely evil, yet I've never preached "Leave America" and not done it myself. Even if I was in America and even if I did preach "Leave America" I wouldn't think it is hypocrisy, I'd be telling other people to leave for their own sake while I remain back and spread the message, but I'm not in America nor am I preaching to leave America. So the point doesn't work, but I liked it anyway, I liked the emotions that might have been behind it and bringing up my other posts too which I sometimes enjoy, like an ongoing character etc.
Certainly, God is not defeated, but God is the one who gives America their reign of terror in the world today.
I don't like the Iranian government or even the various Arab ones either, but they don't have as huge of an influence in the world today either, and I don't think people have to live in those countries. I guess it is a bit of a straw man or something, but I don't mind. I think a person can live in a country and not like the government and speak out against it while living in the land.
"The teaching of Jesus the Christ has shown mankind that ?God? is not a deity to keep isolated in the places of worship ? ?God? is our ?Father? (Originator) whom we need to carry in our hearts and whom we need to search by serving and helping and loving our fellow men."
There are certain things in the Bible which really don't give that message at all, the New Testament included. So what people say is good, but it doesn't necessarily match up with the really bad stuff the Bible says here and there. That is a little different from the Qur'an, which says good stuff but the followers do bad stuff. In this case the Bible says bad stuff, and the followers don't follow it and might promote good stuff at times.
"That is the path of righteousness, that is the path of Christ, that is the path of islam."
I prefer the Qur'anic version of Jesus to the Biblical. The Biblical Jesus is not a very pleasant or good person at all. His points are also often inane and stupid. He can be seen promoting the murder of children, asking that people be executed in-front of him, and telling people to mutilate their bodies, gouge out their own eyes, cut off their own hands and feet, and also promotes Jewish racism and other things. So the Biblical version of Jesus, who also mistreats his mother, is generally a prck, and "at risk of hell" even by the standards he set when he said "Any who calls such and such a fool is at risk of hell" and then he goes on to call people fools and stuff. Saying stupid stuff and speaking in weird ways and not having instant or deep sympathy at all, look at how he treated the begging woman, and look at how he treated those pigs and the demons. To hell with him, he is trash. The Qur'an's Isa is a good person, but the Bible's Jesus is garbage. A villain and a vile person. He even tells people that they should die, that they shouldn't defend themselves or anything. His advice is garbage and un-Qur'anic. He is a hypocrite repeatedly, contradicting his own messages, and all this is because it is a book of lies. Enjoy it. If it doesn't hit your strings as disgusting, then something might actually be wrong with your heart. Only the diseased can overlook a book that has that story of cutting up the man's wife/concubine after her gang rape by his permission. Fck the Bible.
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"Allah is your Master and my Master, let us be slave to Him ? that is the straight route. This core teaching is the driving force behind much of the concepts of ?Freedom, and Human right and Justice? that has now become the hallmark of the secular West. The non-believers would like to discredit the Christ and the religious movements in general ? but without these ?divine? interventions mankind would have remained in the barbaric dark ages.
_lol are you kidding me? Nothing was "Barbaric" about it really. I know lots about history, there were many moral people and places with decency in this world and sensible laws that had nothing to do with Christian lies and stupidity. After Christianity, there came an era of twisted corruption like the Earth had not seen before, up until modern times. In other words, "dream on". It is a total myth to imagine the world was uncivilized before Christianity. Look at the filth it brought into Europe. A devout people turned ignorant in the extreme, even stopping to wash themselves like they used to or bathing properly. They used to be cleaner, more worshipful according to Roman records, and they became absolute stinking filth. To this day they don't wash themselves even, when before they used to be cleaner and cleanliness was important. Thanks to the "non bodily" garbage in the Bible, people started to not take care of themselves at all. One of the many terrors of Christian vileness, besides everything else, including their hatred of Islam and spread of idolatry and error across the world. Guiding millions upon millions into shirk. Are you kidding me man? You support that?
"Then there are those who have understood this message, and those who have deviated by being slave to a false image of ?Jesus? instead of upholding their God gifted sense of right and wrong. As for those of us who followed Jesus by adopting his message ? they will be above the faith repressors till the day of rising. As for those who repressed faith ? soon we will be gathered together and God will judge among us concerning what in the teaching of the messengers that we were differing (Ref 355)."
Nobody has adopted his message for the most part, luckily. Or else a whole bunch of people would have their eyes gouged out, their hands cut off, their feet mutilated, allowing their enemies to beat them to a pulp and stealing from them, and whatever other sh*t advice is in the New Testament. Nobody follows it because it is stupid garbage.
What the Bible and the Hadith says which is good, no argument about it, but what it says that is vile, an argument should be made and it should be recognized as vile.
"That is exactly what I am saying, that is exactly what Jefferson said. But you are not saying that. Just like as you habitually do you are constantly shifting between stances and making confusing statements that contradict each other."
Like what? The Bible is sh*t with some parts that can be used on people who are stuck on it.
"When you call the Bible stanaic and call to throw it in fire ? there hardly is any intension to recognize the ?Good? in it. Blind hatred is equally harmful as blind faith."
A book that says what it does, the vile stuff in it, so mixed with any of the scarce good in it, should absolutely be thrown in a damn fire. It is like Hustler Magazine, even Hustler is less pornographic and sick, I mean the stuff in it is SICK its like snuff film stuff written by a serial killer, yes it should be burned really. The Qur'an is honestly nothing like it, or else I'd say the Qur'an should be burned too. The people who burn the Qur'an are just ignorant idiots, but the Bible, which says what it does, slanders and teaches vileness as the acts of "Prophets" thus guiding people to evil, YES IT SHOULD BE BURNED. THAT IS NOT "BLIND" HATRED, THAT IS HATRED DUE TO CLEAR SIGHT! I HAVE READ IT REPEATEDLY, IT IS A TERRIBLE DISGUSTING BOOK, IT PROMOTES EVIL AND PRETENDS IT IS GOOD, TO HELL WITH THAT BOOK AND TO HELL WITH THE SUPPORTERS OF EVILNESS.
"Oh Yah, there is some bad writing about Muhammad too, of how he encouraged underage marriage, polygamy, killing and torture and things of that sort."
Burn that sh*t too. The Hadiths should have been burned LONG AGO. They still don't match up to the Bible at all, the Bible is worse still by far, but burn them both, they really are books of trash.
"Those who live in the garbage, eat the garbage and vomit the garbage. Take them as your allies if that?s what you are up to."
I don't understand this statement. It almost seems like something I'd say to you or something haha.
"I?ll any day take Mother Terresa or Mahatma Gandhi, or Nelson Mendela as my ally above self-proclaimed ?Foremost Muslims? in online forums; and I wish my Master put me in company of the righteous ? today and on the day of rising."
They were wimps and fools. Nelson Mandela was a stupid strategist who got himself caught and imprisoned for so many years instead of fighting more carefully. Gandhi was part of disuniting the country even though he wanted it to remain a single united country while creating instability, now Hindu radicals run rampant slaughtering Muslims from time to time, and Gandhi's techniques led to the deaths of many people for a worldly and ultimately stupid cause that didn't produce anything but one of the most vile countries in the world, India, who is now operationally supporting Israel with their spy services and working to harass and destabilize Muslim countries (this was on the regular news even) so shall I support the villain who is credited with all that because his lame brain couldn't for-see the implications? Mother Theresa and her spreading idolatry and letting sick people die and suffer instead of giving them proper medical treatment because suffering she believed was a meditation for her, at the expense of genuine people in need? (Read the case against her and Gandhi).
No way. Kaffirs. Maybe you'll get to meet them as you wish.
"Deviating from the teaching of the Christ has been as much a reason for the downfall of the people who call themselves ?Muslims?, as much as it has been taking the ?unauthorized? teachers / imams / scholars as the partner of God."
What are you talking about! The teachings were bad! They weren't good teachings at all. If anyone follows them they will be destroyed basically in every way imaginable.
They will give away everything, they will be vagabonds, they will mutilate themselves, they will kill, they will get martyred, they will let their enemies rape and harass them and not teach self defense. THIS is if they follow the teachings of Jesus. No, I have thoroughly examined the teachings, and they lead to great harm, they are not good for people, and luckily very few if any live up to them or follow them as they are written. Man of Faith's hypocrisy for example is a saving grace, he should thank God he is a hypocrite and failing to follow the teachings of the Bible (in its mainstream translations).
"Reverting back to show-off rituals and over-ritualization, fanatic genital mutation, misunderstanding of riba, fanaticism about food restrictions ? all can be almost directly attributed to departure from the message of the Christ."
Stopping the killing of your children? What about that one? Christ called people hypocrites and disbelievers for not killing their children, he mistreated begging people, he mistreated animals, he mistreated a freaking tree even! He promoted mutilation even with the implication of genital mutilation, he promoted fanaticism and all of that stuff. What are you talking about? Have you read the New Testament or what? Of course you have! How is it you missed all of this insanity in there?
"As far as I am concerned, I am as much a follower of Jesus as much I am of Muhammad or any other messenger of God for that matter. I have faith in them and I do not differentiate between any of them."
Yet, that requires the belief that the New Testament represents the actual teachings of Jesus. I don't think it does necessarily. I hope not at least, because I fully reject vile sh*t like that.
"Let our paths be separated then."
Well that is cruel. If you believe you are right, and on the path of being saved, you should out of compassion work to correct me and save me, if not, you are lacking compassion and are quite evil in that sense. Don't you see how I tirelessly try to help people?
"Yes of course
Then should have faith in part of the book and repress faith in part?"No idea what this is about. The "Biblos" scriptures might not be the real book at all. Even if it were, I reject it, I don't care who it comes from if it is saying vile trash non-stop then it is not good for people.
"Those who fight against the teaching of love, compassion and fellow-feeling ? the message brought to humanity from our common Master they do not deserve anything better in life, it does not matter whether they are fighting under the banner of Nazis or KKK or Boko haram or Shiv Shena."
Who says it isn't compassionate to gas all men, women, and children to death before they have a chance to sin more? See, these things can get quite twisted. The Biblical apologists have even suggested the massacres at times were "All Love" haha, what a joke!
Part of being a good person is to reject evilness. Part of being a bad person is to support it secretly or openly.
"This my friend is a good note. But then again it is Christ who taught us that goodness and compassion and justice tempered with mercy is the ONLY path to God."
Dude, that is a MYTH, go read what it actually says. He did not teach anything that is so great really. He taught extremist stupidity "Go sell everything you have and buy a sword", his advice is garbage.
"If you read with due sincerity you?ll find that is the message of the Gospels just as much as that is the message of the Qur?an."
lol, you need to read it with due sincerity, and actually see what the heck he is saying and how it is so crazy. I went in expecting all kinds of good stuff, that these people have made a religion out of it, I was shocked.
"But if you approach the scripture with a distorted mind seeking your own interpretation and looking for quotes to dishonor and discredit the scriptures ? then remember, Allah deviates whomever He wills and Allah guides whomever He wills and Allah is the Mighty authority of Retribution."
Are you kidding me again? The Quotes are there, they aren't even out of context, people have to stretch to try to not make them mean what they say, the Qur'an doesn't even say bad stuff like that, big difference, and if it did, I wouldn't give a hoot about an evil book spreading evil messages except to fight it and its supporters.
"May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman"Eh, doubt that will happen ever.
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Freedomstands,
How can you call Jesus of the Biblical Gospels a bad man? What in it is fierce? He taught very good things.
Overall he teaches Gnostic thought however. In fact very closely. And he came to a Gnostic community where people practiced in general to be minimalistic, even if people often were hypocrites, especially the clergy and scholars.
He calls physical/exaggerated worshipers of a deity for Pagans. Which is not a curse word but a definition for people who are materialistic/worldly.
He said "return to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and what belongs to God to God" subtly rebuking the Paganism in both practices.
Actually Quran also teaches Gnostic style faith underneath the fabricated language.
Be well
Do you want me to waste my time getting you a bunch of quotes you don't care about or should we just skip it? I think skipping it might be best. I could show you lots of crap in it though, but I think it is a waste of the time to go through such an effort as I do repeatedly just to be ignored and disregarded, it isn't important. People will just lie on top of lies about whatever they imagine to justify or explain away anything. My whole point for bringing up these things are to try to make people face things they can't explain away, but they manage to explain everything away and live in a world full of bunny rabbits and what-not.
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Yes indeed, Freedomstands. It is better you skip them.
I could show you a lot of crap with Quran as well.
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To Freedomstands
Refuting you over the teaching of Christ is just as pointless as refuting those who only see vulgarity and oppression in Qur'an. If one does not have the capacity to appreciate the metaphor in the statement "If your eye cause you to sin, gauge it out"... then one has no right to defend the metaphor in... "for the male and female thieves - so cut of their hands". You find Luke 1927 vile and oppressive but effectively the same statement in Qur'an (533) becomes enlightening!
No, I do not say this country or that country is Satan. My Master has given me enough knowledge to appreciate there is good and bad, evil and divine in every country, in every individual, in every race, in every religion. Rather wholesale generalization is the trick of Satan.
I have no obligation to guide you, Guidance is with my Master - if you find it "cruel" then be it. Rather my Master has taught me when the signs of Allah are repressed - when messengers of Allah are mocked and ridiculed, I should stay away, lest I be counted among the hypocrites.
4140 And certainly He has sent down to you in the book that - when you hear signs of Allah being repressed with it and being mocked with it ? then do not sit with them until they chat about narratives other than it. Indeed then you (would be) like them. Indeed Allah will gather the hypocrites and the ones who repress (faith) in Hell altogether.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
Or, how Jesus taught
"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 76).
So have fun with your "Luciferian and Satanic terminology" or whatever - for you is your resolution, for me is mine.
Arman
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"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 76).
The metaphor in that parable is so fierce. I like this sarcastic expression. I should be better at learning from it so I do not have to be torn into pieces.
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The 3rd / 4th Century CE was the era of corruption of the first edition of the Book of ALLAH. I reject the legend that it was circulated by Ptolemy of Egypt in the 2nd century BCE on the basis of zero evidence.
The above verse proofs that the last Prophet came at the time when the hidings and obliteration of the Book were being carried out and at the time when the Quran was first sent down.
If Prophet Muhammad?s ministry was in the 7th Century CE, 300 years after Nicea, what is the point of warning when the Book had already been distorted! Do you think is going to be easy.That is totally incorrect. Torah was textually corrupted even before the arrival of Jesus(P) let alone Muhammad(P). How do we know that? Read Jeremiah 88
?How can you say, ?We are wise, and the law (Torah) of the LORD is with us??
But behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.Here Jeremiah is admitting that scribes had perverted the truth of the law (Torah) into a lie.
Secondly, Deut 34 which is a last book of Torah (supposedly authored by Moses) talks about his funeral, is now widely accepted by both Jewish and Christian scholars as a fabrication and interpolation.
Deuteronomy 345
5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD, 6 and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows the place of his burial to this day.
7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
8 And the people of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days; then the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.Comments
Some say that this was written by Joshua (Rabbi Abraham Ben Meir Ibn Ezra)It is indeed not authored by Moshe. Perhaps either Joshua or one of his followers. (Torah- The Modern Commentary by Rabbi Gunther Plaut).
Thirdly, the translation of Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek (Septuagint LXX) has lots of mistakes in it (which existed before Prophet Muhammad (P)) as compared to Masoretic Text.
So your ?The 3rd / 4th Century CE was the era of corruption of the first edition of the Book of ALLAH? theory goes out of the window.
It clearly shows that YOU ARE AN UMMIYUNA - ONE WHO HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE BOOK EXCEPT WISHFUL THINKING AND THAT THEY EXCEPT CONJECTURES.
You believe in the doctrines of men but not ALLAH. You are not a believer! Maybe submitter. The Quran is very clear to say that Prophets were sent to PROTECT THE BOOK OF ALLAH !. There were many prophets came before the Last Prophet Of ALLAH. All you wrote are nothing but BULLSHIT AND AS SUCH I HAVE NO CHOICE BUT OT FLUSH IT IN THE SHIT HOLE.
Christianity was established officially in 4th Century CE by Constantine. It is plausible his father Constantius I, had plan of its doctrine and some scriptures were wrote prior to the Creed of Nicea.
The ANTIQUITY of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).
Constantine needed some religious literature that was old, which was NOT Greek, and which could be used as a platform. It had to have an antiquity comparable to the Greek and Egyptian histories. Somehow, he came across the Hebrew Bible - possibly in the library of Caesarea, and possibly translated by Origen. .?Greco-Romans ?not only had knowledge of Book of Moses but also the entire Old Testament. They had Septuagint (LXX) is their possession which is a Greek translation of Hebrew Bible.
Just try to understand the fallacy in your statement. Let?s say for the sake of argument I agree with you. If they have NO knowledge of the book, then how can they corrupt it? How can you corrupt something of which you don?t possess no knowledge of? Secondly, how did you reach the conclusion that the verse 278 is talking about Book of Moses? If so then how come New Testament quotes Torah (Book of Moses) 100 TIMES. How can they quote Torah if they don?t have any knowledge about it? That doesn?t make any sense.
Now let?s talk about who corrupted the scriptures in 275-278
275 Do you then hope that they(the Jews)would believe in you, and a party from among them(the Jews) indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered(yuarrifnahu) it after they(the Jews) had understood it, and they(The Jews) know
(So it is established here beyond the show of the doubt that Jews did corrupt the scriptures)
276 And when they (The Jews) meet those who believe they say We (The Jews) believe, and when they (The Jews) are alone one with another they say Do you talk to them (The Jews) of what Allah has disclosed to you that they (The Jews) may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not then understand?
277 Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known?
278 Among them are gentiles who do not know the scripture, except through hearsay, then assume that they know it.
(Gentiles do not know the scripture. They except through heresay.)
279 Therefore, woe to those (The Jews) who distort the scripture with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.
?Woe to those!? Who is this referring to? This is NOT referring to the Gentiles, because they had no knowledge of the book hence they cannot corrupt it. But rather it?s referring to the people who altered / wrote / added / edited book of Allah i.e The Jews. How do we know this? Go back to 275 it clearly states that the Jews distorted (yuarrifnahu) the scripture.
So Mr Tarek, whose words do you trust, our CREATOR or Prof. Bart Ehrman's?
I agree with Quran where religious guidance is concerned. I also agree with Prof. Bart Ehrman where his expertise in the field are concerned. They are not in contradiction. What I don?t agree with is your interpretation imposed on the text. One that?s not consistent with the biblical history, one that is not consistent with historical context within the Quran.
Mr. Hizbullah I am staying with somebody and my access to computer is very limited. I?ll get back to the Prophet Muhammad?s lineage and the proof of his existence in 7th century using non Islamic sources in a week or so.
I do appreciate your time and your true efforts.
Peace.
Just try to understand the fallacy in your statement. No where in the verses 0275 to 79, mentioned Jews. Its your own interpolation. As I have said earlier YOU ARE A GOOD EXAMPLE OF UMMIYUNA!
275 Do you then hope that they (the Jews)would believe in you, and a BREAK AWAY PARTY from among them (the Jews) indeed used to hear the Word of ALLAH, then altered (yuarrifnahu) it after they (the Jews) had understood it, and they (The Jews)know
(So it is established here beyond the show of the doubt that Jews did corrupt the scriptures)
No way, its your own interpolation, in the Quran, the Jews were never called break away party but people who were given a Section of the Book
276 And when they (The Jews) meet those who believe they say We (The Jews) believe, and when they (The Jews) are alone one with another they say Do you talk to them (The Jews) of what Allah has disclosed to you that they (The Jews) may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not then understand?
277 Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known?
278 Among them are gentiles who do not know the scripture, except through hearsay, then assume that they know it.
(Gentiles do not know the scripture. They except through heresay.)
Among them were the Ummiyuna, they were the Greco-Romans.
The Quran 0378
And indeed, there is among them a break party who alter the Book with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is not from Allah. And they speak untruth about Allah while they know.
It was the Greco-Romans and their ally the Bani Israel, who distort the Book with the Greco-Roman language. The Bani Israel were very close to the Greco-Romans. The Quran 0578 -
Cursed were those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel by the tongue of David and of Jesus, the son of Mary. That was because they disobeyed and transgressed.
They used not to prevent one another from wrongdoing that they did. How wretched was that which they were doing.
You see many of them becoming allies of those who disbelieved. How wretched is that which they have put forth for themselves in that Allah has become angry with them, and in the punishment they will abide eternally.
And if they had believed in Allah and the Prophet and in what was revealed to him, they would not have taken them as allies; but many of them are defiantly disobedient.
And also please read 6214
O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.
THE ISREALITE, A PORTION BELIEVES AND A PORTAION DISBELIEVE. THE BECAMEE THE BREAK AWAY PARTY. FURTHER PROOF 3410
And We gave David bounty from Us 'O you mountains, echo God's praises with him, and you birds!' And We softened for him THE IRON
The above verse proof that the break away party was the Bani Israel. Historical evidence suggested that the Greco-Romans have contact with the South Arabians in the 4th / 5th Century BCE. These South Arabians were the Bani Israel. The knowledge of iron was past down to the Greco-Romans by the Bani Israel. As such the Greco-Romans became the first to use the art of armour in warfare. They managed to defeat the Archamaied Persian Empire and hence, ruled from Britain to the Indus Valley.
279 Therefore, So woe to those (The Jews) who distort the scripture with their own hands, then say, "This is what GOD has revealed," seeking a cheap material gain. Woe to them for such distortion, and woe to them for their illicit gains.
The letter FA is prefixed resumption particle, it demonstrate an event and it is connected to verse 78.
The Ummiyuna who have no knowledge of the Book but only conjectures and so they wrote a book and say it is rom ALLAH, the same people who distort the Book of Musa with their language. We all know that the OT was written in Greco-Roman language. Why?
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Freedomstands,
How can you call Jesus of the Biblical Gospels a bad man? What in it is fierce? He taught very good things.
Can you please explain your point to me when you talk about "Jesus of the biblical gospels". I have some queries for you if you don't mind.
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Jesus of the Gospels is supposed to be one of a trinity. So if Jesus is God then he is also the "God" of the Old testament correct? He could not be "God" in the new testament and then disassociate himself from the God of the old testament. If you believe in the Jesus of the Gospels then you have to also believe that he was the same Jehovah who said a lot of stuff which is in the old testament.
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Do you agree with the teachings of Jesus mentioned in the old testament or taurah of the jews?
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If you don't believe that he was God, then you believe in the Jesus of the Quran. Do you agree?
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Is Quran in your opinion a sadistic and violent book which commands people to commit terrorism?
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If you believe that then why do you believe in it as the words of God
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If you don't believe it to be words of God then why do you pretend to accept it. Just come out and say what your true beliefs are.
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- Jesus of the Gospels is supposed to be one of a trinity.
Salam OnlyOneGod.
Sorry for poking my nose in this discussion. Could you please share with me any verse from the canonized Gospels which proclaim
- Jesus is one of a trinity.
- God is one of a trinity.
- God is Jesus.
- God has taken a child.
Seriously, I may be carrying a misconception about the Gospels. Do correct me if you find any statement in the Gospels supporting any of the above claims.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
OnlyOneGod,
Can you please explain your point to me when you talk about "Jesus of the biblical gospels". I have some queries for you if you don't mind.
Because you ask so nicely I will explain.
- Jesus of the Gospels is supposed to be one of a trinity. So if Jesus is God then he is also the "God" of the Old testament correct? He could not be "God" in the new testament and then disassociate himself from the God of the old testament. If you believe in the Jesus of the Gospels then you have to also believe that he was the same Jehovah who said a lot of stuff which is in the old testament.
Arman gave your answer quite well already.
Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum.
The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you".
That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic. No need for worship either, but it is always good to do the will of the Father which means to be grow into perfection. The Sustainer is looking for prospective rulers in the Spirit.
- Do you agree with the teachings of Jesus mentioned in the old testament or taurah of the jews?
The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'.
They were as follows prior to distortion of the interpretation of them
- Be attached to your Sustainer in union.
- Do not make any image of anything in Heaven or Earth and worship it.
- No vain talk
- Keep the Sabbath (contemplate, use the mind to reflect)
- Treat thy neighbor as thyself, honor your parents
- You should not murder
- You should not steal
- You should not commit illicit sex
- You should not carry false testimony
- You should not covet your neighbors property
Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning
- You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
- Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God
- Moses said that you should care for your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say do also care for your enemy
- Moses said you should not murder, but I say do not even be angry with your neighbor
- Moses said that you should not commit adultery, but I say one who looks upon another woman with desire has already committed adultery in their mind.
He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment.
That is not really altering these "guidelines", but doing even better than the basic law, yielding better spiritual results. It was not Jesus' fault that the clerics had corrupted the instructions, so he had serious problems with the clergy when he talked about the two first commandments.
- If you don't believe that he was God, then you believe in the Jesus of the Quran. Do you agree?
I see no inconsistency, except what is generated due to poor interpretations. Jesus is written in Arabic.
- Is Quran in your opinion a sadistic and violent book which commands people to commit terrorism?
Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one.
- If you believe that then why do you believe in it as the words of God
Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed.
- If you don't believe it to be words of God then why do you pretend to accept it. Just come out and say what your true beliefs are.
I know it is the word of "GOD", but the fabricated language is not. The dirt. It is just someone or some people who shoveled a mound of dirt on top of it.
Be well
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Salam OnlyOneGod.
Sorry for poking my nose in this discussion. Could you please share with me any verse from the canonized Gospels which proclaim
- Jesus is one of a trinity.
- God is one of a trinity.
- God is Jesus.
- God has taken a child.
Seriously, I may be carrying a misconception about the Gospels. Do correct me if you find any statement in the Gospels supporting any of the above claims.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanMatthew 2819 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
1 Corinthians 86 - But to us one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom all things, and we by him.
2 Corinthians 1314 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, with you all. Amen. ( to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.])
John 114 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Recall the "The Word is with God and the Word is God"
1 John 57-8 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
Colossians 29 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
John 11-51 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1 Peter 12 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
John 1030-36 - I and Father are one.
1 John 49
By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten
Son into the world so that we might live through Him.John 114
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as
of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.John 316
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever
believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.John 118
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is
in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.John 318
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.Enjoy.
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Salamun Alaikum.
Thanks FreedomStands for the collection of quotes. It was actually quite helpful. This will help illustrate what I was trying to imply.
First of all, one point to note in the quoted statements is that virtually all of them come from the commentary of the scribes (popularly believed to be the disciples of Jesus, but researchers would generally agree these books are written by later day scribes based on the narratives of the disciples); not based on direct statements of Jesus.
Before we look into these commentary, let?s quickly see how Jesus supposedly defended his ?Son of God? claim.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.(From John 1024-42; King James Version)
The above paragraph is particularly significant because it shows how Jesus defended his unique claims in front of the Jews ? who were his primary audience.
Read very carefully 34-36, it demonstrates by calling himself ?Son of God? Jesus is only utilizing the linguistic already present in the Law (Torah). Verily the old testament also says in many places that men are sons of God (e.g. Genesis 64). Jesus DID not claim to be a ?biological? child of God because of virgin birth or anything, he used the term ?Son of God? as a figure of speech already known to his primary audience. Verses 37-38 also shows that he did not demand blind faith in him because of him being ?genetically / biologically a child of God?, rather he proclaimed the designation of ?Son of God? because He conveyed the Word of God through his words and actions.
One may bring the verse 30 where Jesus appears to be saying ?I and my Father are one.? To show that Jesus did blaspheme. But behold, Qur?an also teaches that the messenger and God are not to be differentiated
4150 Indeed those who repress (faith) in Allah and His messengers and intend that they differentiate between Allah and His messenger and say, ?We put faith in some and we repress (faith) in others? and intend that they take a path between that ?
4151 They are the ones ? they truly are repressing (faith) and We have prepared a humiliating suffering for the ones who repress (faith).
(My personal translation, emphasis added, cross checking is recommended.)
I do recognize that some of the statements in the New Testament are over-enthusiastic expressions which exceed the limits. Wordings like ?only begotten son? are particularly disturbing. But Just like we must understand hadith narrations in light of Qur?an and not the other way around. We should understand the writings of the scribes based on what Jesus said, and not the other way around. See, how the same Gospel of John, which calls Jesus the ?only begotten son?, keeps the designation open
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.(From John 110-13; King James Version)
The word ?Trinity? is not from the Bible ? it is the work of latter day Theologians. A pure understanding of Trinity is a monotheist understanding ? that God and the Holy spirit and the Son (i.e. God?s words manifested in Jesus) are the same. But those who have the habit of rushing to a quick conclusion, quickly fall in the trap of thinking that God is one of the three or one third of the three. That my friend is blasphemy. The term ?Son of God? is not but a figure of speech used by the earlier nations
930 ?And the yahud said ? Uzair is son of Allah; and the nassara said ? Christ is son of Allah.? ? That is their statement with their mouth. They imitate the statements of those who repressed (faith) from before. ?May Allah kill them. How deluded they are!?
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
One cannot have God except through Jesus. By the same token one cannot have God except through Qur?an. Because the path of Jesus, the path of Qur?an is the same path ? the path that leads to Allah. But the moment we imagine that Jesus can be an independent authority to help convince God, or Qur?an/Muhammad can be an independent authority to help convince God, we open the doorway of shirk.
Qur?an clarifies the confusion created by the ?Son of God? terminology by making it absolutely clear that God is unquestionably above the act of childbearing. But Qur?an does recognize Jesus indeed was a Word of God that was given to Mary, and that he was the spirit of God. Qur?an does recognize the Christ. So, let?s not confuse ourselves by thinking that Jesus preached three Gods.
4171 O! Fraternity of the book ? do not exceed limits in your resolution (ْ and do not say about Allah but the truth. Only The Christ, Jesus - son of Mary - was a messenger of Allah and His word which He offered to Mary and a spirit from Him. So, put faith in Allah and His messengers and do not say, ?Three!? Cease! (It is) better for you. Only Allah is one God. Exalted be Him ? that he would have a son for Him. Whatever (is there) in the heavens and whatever (is there) on the earth (all) belong to Him and Allah suffices as an Executive.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Arman
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If there is an idol known as Jesus, it may be best to take a large stone and crush it's head.
"Ye are Gods" is a pretty misleading justification. I think I would've rallied for the execution of the blasphemer, then the burning of the Torah and an invitation to being proper Roman citizens.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEakV0ZqRqI
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Is that your choice of course of action, Freedomstands?
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OnlyOneGod,
Because you ask so nicely I will explain.
Arman gave your answer quite well already.
Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum.
The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you".
That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic. No need for worship either, but it is always good to do the will of the Father which means to be grow into perfection. The Sustainer is looking for prospective rulers in the Spirit.
The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'.
They were as follows prior to distortion of the interpretation of them
- Be attached to your Sustainer in union.
- Do not make any image of anything in Heaven or Earth and worship it.
- No vain talk
- Keep the Sabbath (contemplate, use the mind to reflect)
- Treat thy neighbor as thyself, honor your parents
- You should not murder
- You should not steal
- You should not commit illicit sex
- You should not carry false testimony
- You should not covet your neighbors property
Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning
- You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
- Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God
- Moses said that you should care for your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say do also care for your enemy
- Moses said you should not murder, but I say do not even be angry with your neighbor
- Moses said that you should not commit adultery, but I say one who looks upon another woman with desire has already committed adultery in their mind.
He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment.
That is not really altering these "guidelines", but doing even better than the basic law, yielding better spiritual results. It was not Jesus' fault that the clerics had corrupted the instructions, so he had serious problems with the clergy when he talked about the two first commandments.
I see no inconsistency, except what is generated due to poor interpretations. Jesus is written in Arabic.
Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one.
Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed.
I know it is the word of "GOD", but the fabricated language is not. The dirt. It is just someone or some people who shoveled a mound of dirt on top of it.
Be well
"Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum."
By Jesus of the Gospels I obviously meant the interpretation of Jesus as his followers of the Gospels portray. Our own interpretation of the Gospels is another matter all together.
"The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you"."
why do you believe that this part of the torah mentioning "I AM THAT I AM" is also not a mix of falsehood, and bad interpretations just like the Quran? Do you have any analysis to back up its authenticity or truth? Are you sure on the aramaic translation that you got?
"That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic."
Who says that I'm looking for a separate God? There is only one God.
"The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'."
Quran is also based on those ten commandments that you quote (although some of your ten commandments seem to be more your own creation rather than Gods)?
"Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning"
So do you believe that Muhammad also elaborated on a lot of things mentioned in the ten commandments?
"He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment."
And have you checked whether this verse of the bible in original Aramaic translates to "love". I know how you are so strict on true translations and thus I ask. Do you think that Quran and Allah do not talk about love in the Quran?
"Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one."
So you think that Quran is a sadistic and violent book. Where does Quran tell us to kill people who do not perform salat?
It incites hatred towards the mushrik and the kafir? Really? Because it didn't incite me to do those things. Can you elaborate on where and when you were incited by the Quran to act in such ways?"Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed."
Please show to me and the world the exact verses that were leading you towards violence. And how exactly are you re-translating those verses to mean something more to your liking. Please concentrate on these violent verses and not on your re-interpretations of salaat or qibla etc.