WHAT DOES QURAN SAY ABOUT BIBLICAL CORRUPTION
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Freedomstands,
How can you call Jesus of the Biblical Gospels a bad man? What in it is fierce? He taught very good things.
Can you please explain your point to me when you talk about "Jesus of the biblical gospels". I have some queries for you if you don't mind.
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Jesus of the Gospels is supposed to be one of a trinity. So if Jesus is God then he is also the "God" of the Old testament correct? He could not be "God" in the new testament and then disassociate himself from the God of the old testament. If you believe in the Jesus of the Gospels then you have to also believe that he was the same Jehovah who said a lot of stuff which is in the old testament.
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Do you agree with the teachings of Jesus mentioned in the old testament or taurah of the jews?
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If you don't believe that he was God, then you believe in the Jesus of the Quran. Do you agree?
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Is Quran in your opinion a sadistic and violent book which commands people to commit terrorism?
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If you believe that then why do you believe in it as the words of God
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If you don't believe it to be words of God then why do you pretend to accept it. Just come out and say what your true beliefs are.
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- Jesus of the Gospels is supposed to be one of a trinity.
Salam OnlyOneGod.
Sorry for poking my nose in this discussion. Could you please share with me any verse from the canonized Gospels which proclaim
- Jesus is one of a trinity.
- God is one of a trinity.
- God is Jesus.
- God has taken a child.
Seriously, I may be carrying a misconception about the Gospels. Do correct me if you find any statement in the Gospels supporting any of the above claims.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
OnlyOneGod,
Can you please explain your point to me when you talk about "Jesus of the biblical gospels". I have some queries for you if you don't mind.
Because you ask so nicely I will explain.
- Jesus of the Gospels is supposed to be one of a trinity. So if Jesus is God then he is also the "God" of the Old testament correct? He could not be "God" in the new testament and then disassociate himself from the God of the old testament. If you believe in the Jesus of the Gospels then you have to also believe that he was the same Jehovah who said a lot of stuff which is in the old testament.
Arman gave your answer quite well already.
Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum.
The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you".
That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic. No need for worship either, but it is always good to do the will of the Father which means to be grow into perfection. The Sustainer is looking for prospective rulers in the Spirit.
- Do you agree with the teachings of Jesus mentioned in the old testament or taurah of the jews?
The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'.
They were as follows prior to distortion of the interpretation of them
- Be attached to your Sustainer in union.
- Do not make any image of anything in Heaven or Earth and worship it.
- No vain talk
- Keep the Sabbath (contemplate, use the mind to reflect)
- Treat thy neighbor as thyself, honor your parents
- You should not murder
- You should not steal
- You should not commit illicit sex
- You should not carry false testimony
- You should not covet your neighbors property
Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning
- You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
- Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God
- Moses said that you should care for your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say do also care for your enemy
- Moses said you should not murder, but I say do not even be angry with your neighbor
- Moses said that you should not commit adultery, but I say one who looks upon another woman with desire has already committed adultery in their mind.
He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment.
That is not really altering these "guidelines", but doing even better than the basic law, yielding better spiritual results. It was not Jesus' fault that the clerics had corrupted the instructions, so he had serious problems with the clergy when he talked about the two first commandments.
- If you don't believe that he was God, then you believe in the Jesus of the Quran. Do you agree?
I see no inconsistency, except what is generated due to poor interpretations. Jesus is written in Arabic.
- Is Quran in your opinion a sadistic and violent book which commands people to commit terrorism?
Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one.
- If you believe that then why do you believe in it as the words of God
Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed.
- If you don't believe it to be words of God then why do you pretend to accept it. Just come out and say what your true beliefs are.
I know it is the word of "GOD", but the fabricated language is not. The dirt. It is just someone or some people who shoveled a mound of dirt on top of it.
Be well
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Salam OnlyOneGod.
Sorry for poking my nose in this discussion. Could you please share with me any verse from the canonized Gospels which proclaim
- Jesus is one of a trinity.
- God is one of a trinity.
- God is Jesus.
- God has taken a child.
Seriously, I may be carrying a misconception about the Gospels. Do correct me if you find any statement in the Gospels supporting any of the above claims.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanMatthew 2819 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
1 Corinthians 86 - But to us one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom all things, and we by him.
2 Corinthians 1314 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, with you all. Amen. ( to the Corinthians was written from Philippi, of Macedonia, by Titus and Lucas.])
John 114 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (Recall the "The Word is with God and the Word is God"
1 John 57-8 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.
Colossians 29 - For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
John 11-51 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1 Peter 12 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
John 1030-36 - I and Father are one.
1 John 49
By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten
Son into the world so that we might live through Him.John 114
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as
of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.John 316
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever
believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.John 118
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is
in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.John 318
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.Enjoy.
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Salamun Alaikum.
Thanks FreedomStands for the collection of quotes. It was actually quite helpful. This will help illustrate what I was trying to imply.
First of all, one point to note in the quoted statements is that virtually all of them come from the commentary of the scribes (popularly believed to be the disciples of Jesus, but researchers would generally agree these books are written by later day scribes based on the narratives of the disciples); not based on direct statements of Jesus.
Before we look into these commentary, let?s quickly see how Jesus supposedly defended his ?Son of God? claim.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.(From John 1024-42; King James Version)
The above paragraph is particularly significant because it shows how Jesus defended his unique claims in front of the Jews ? who were his primary audience.
Read very carefully 34-36, it demonstrates by calling himself ?Son of God? Jesus is only utilizing the linguistic already present in the Law (Torah). Verily the old testament also says in many places that men are sons of God (e.g. Genesis 64). Jesus DID not claim to be a ?biological? child of God because of virgin birth or anything, he used the term ?Son of God? as a figure of speech already known to his primary audience. Verses 37-38 also shows that he did not demand blind faith in him because of him being ?genetically / biologically a child of God?, rather he proclaimed the designation of ?Son of God? because He conveyed the Word of God through his words and actions.
One may bring the verse 30 where Jesus appears to be saying ?I and my Father are one.? To show that Jesus did blaspheme. But behold, Qur?an also teaches that the messenger and God are not to be differentiated
4150 Indeed those who repress (faith) in Allah and His messengers and intend that they differentiate between Allah and His messenger and say, ?We put faith in some and we repress (faith) in others? and intend that they take a path between that ?
4151 They are the ones ? they truly are repressing (faith) and We have prepared a humiliating suffering for the ones who repress (faith).
(My personal translation, emphasis added, cross checking is recommended.)
I do recognize that some of the statements in the New Testament are over-enthusiastic expressions which exceed the limits. Wordings like ?only begotten son? are particularly disturbing. But Just like we must understand hadith narrations in light of Qur?an and not the other way around. We should understand the writings of the scribes based on what Jesus said, and not the other way around. See, how the same Gospel of John, which calls Jesus the ?only begotten son?, keeps the designation open
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.(From John 110-13; King James Version)
The word ?Trinity? is not from the Bible ? it is the work of latter day Theologians. A pure understanding of Trinity is a monotheist understanding ? that God and the Holy spirit and the Son (i.e. God?s words manifested in Jesus) are the same. But those who have the habit of rushing to a quick conclusion, quickly fall in the trap of thinking that God is one of the three or one third of the three. That my friend is blasphemy. The term ?Son of God? is not but a figure of speech used by the earlier nations
930 ?And the yahud said ? Uzair is son of Allah; and the nassara said ? Christ is son of Allah.? ? That is their statement with their mouth. They imitate the statements of those who repressed (faith) from before. ?May Allah kill them. How deluded they are!?
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
One cannot have God except through Jesus. By the same token one cannot have God except through Qur?an. Because the path of Jesus, the path of Qur?an is the same path ? the path that leads to Allah. But the moment we imagine that Jesus can be an independent authority to help convince God, or Qur?an/Muhammad can be an independent authority to help convince God, we open the doorway of shirk.
Qur?an clarifies the confusion created by the ?Son of God? terminology by making it absolutely clear that God is unquestionably above the act of childbearing. But Qur?an does recognize Jesus indeed was a Word of God that was given to Mary, and that he was the spirit of God. Qur?an does recognize the Christ. So, let?s not confuse ourselves by thinking that Jesus preached three Gods.
4171 O! Fraternity of the book ? do not exceed limits in your resolution (ْ and do not say about Allah but the truth. Only The Christ, Jesus - son of Mary - was a messenger of Allah and His word which He offered to Mary and a spirit from Him. So, put faith in Allah and His messengers and do not say, ?Three!? Cease! (It is) better for you. Only Allah is one God. Exalted be Him ? that he would have a son for Him. Whatever (is there) in the heavens and whatever (is there) on the earth (all) belong to Him and Allah suffices as an Executive.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Arman
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If there is an idol known as Jesus, it may be best to take a large stone and crush it's head.
"Ye are Gods" is a pretty misleading justification. I think I would've rallied for the execution of the blasphemer, then the burning of the Torah and an invitation to being proper Roman citizens.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEakV0ZqRqI
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Is that your choice of course of action, Freedomstands?
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OnlyOneGod,
Because you ask so nicely I will explain.
Arman gave your answer quite well already.
Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum.
The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you".
That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic. No need for worship either, but it is always good to do the will of the Father which means to be grow into perfection. The Sustainer is looking for prospective rulers in the Spirit.
The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'.
They were as follows prior to distortion of the interpretation of them
- Be attached to your Sustainer in union.
- Do not make any image of anything in Heaven or Earth and worship it.
- No vain talk
- Keep the Sabbath (contemplate, use the mind to reflect)
- Treat thy neighbor as thyself, honor your parents
- You should not murder
- You should not steal
- You should not commit illicit sex
- You should not carry false testimony
- You should not covet your neighbors property
Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning
- You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
- Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God
- Moses said that you should care for your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say do also care for your enemy
- Moses said you should not murder, but I say do not even be angry with your neighbor
- Moses said that you should not commit adultery, but I say one who looks upon another woman with desire has already committed adultery in their mind.
He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment.
That is not really altering these "guidelines", but doing even better than the basic law, yielding better spiritual results. It was not Jesus' fault that the clerics had corrupted the instructions, so he had serious problems with the clergy when he talked about the two first commandments.
I see no inconsistency, except what is generated due to poor interpretations. Jesus is written in Arabic.
Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one.
Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed.
I know it is the word of "GOD", but the fabricated language is not. The dirt. It is just someone or some people who shoveled a mound of dirt on top of it.
Be well
"Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum."
By Jesus of the Gospels I obviously meant the interpretation of Jesus as his followers of the Gospels portray. Our own interpretation of the Gospels is another matter all together.
"The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you"."
why do you believe that this part of the torah mentioning "I AM THAT I AM" is also not a mix of falsehood, and bad interpretations just like the Quran? Do you have any analysis to back up its authenticity or truth? Are you sure on the aramaic translation that you got?
"That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic."
Who says that I'm looking for a separate God? There is only one God.
"The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'."
Quran is also based on those ten commandments that you quote (although some of your ten commandments seem to be more your own creation rather than Gods)?
"Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning"
So do you believe that Muhammad also elaborated on a lot of things mentioned in the ten commandments?
"He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment."
And have you checked whether this verse of the bible in original Aramaic translates to "love". I know how you are so strict on true translations and thus I ask. Do you think that Quran and Allah do not talk about love in the Quran?
"Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one."
So you think that Quran is a sadistic and violent book. Where does Quran tell us to kill people who do not perform salat?
It incites hatred towards the mushrik and the kafir? Really? Because it didn't incite me to do those things. Can you elaborate on where and when you were incited by the Quran to act in such ways?"Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed."
Please show to me and the world the exact verses that were leading you towards violence. And how exactly are you re-translating those verses to mean something more to your liking. Please concentrate on these violent verses and not on your re-interpretations of salaat or qibla etc.
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By Jesus of the Gospels I obviously meant the interpretation of Jesus as his followers of the Gospels portray. Our own interpretation of the Gospels is another matter all together.
Then be also humble when by the Islam of Qur'an the majority of the world "obviously means" the interpretation of Qur'an as the majority of followers of Qur'an portray (or the official Islamic Clergy portray). Our own interpretation of the Qur'an is another matter all together.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Is that your choice of course of action, Freedomstands?
Certainly! It is always my choice to kick butt!
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Salam OnlyOneGod.
Sorry for poking my nose in this discussion. Could you please share with me any verse from the canonized Gospels which proclaim
- Jesus is one of a trinity.
- God is one of a trinity.
- God is Jesus.
- God has taken a child.
Seriously, I may be carrying a misconception about the Gospels. Do correct me if you find any statement in the Gospels supporting any of the above claims.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanWhen I say Jesus of the Gospels , I meant what the adherents of that faith believe in. Not how we interpret those very same Gospels.
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OnlyOneGod,
Because you ask so nicely I will explain.
Arman gave your answer quite well already.
Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum.
The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew". There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you".
That goes together with the elaboration I made to you about the nature of the word allah, but you did not heed my explanation. Not my fault, but the point is that there is no separate god to be looking for, it is all symbiotic. No need for worship either, but it is always good to do the will of the Father which means to be grow into perfection. The Sustainer is looking for prospective rulers in the Spirit.
The decree and teachings that Jesus taught are based on the so-called 'Ten Commandments'.
They were as follows prior to distortion of the interpretation of them
- Be attached to your Sustainer in union.
- Do not make any image of anything in Heaven or Earth and worship it.
- No vain talk
- Keep the Sabbath (contemplate, use the mind to reflect)
- Treat thy neighbor as thyself, honor your parents
- You should not murder
- You should not steal
- You should not commit illicit sex
- You should not carry false testimony
- You should not covet your neighbors property
Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning
- You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
- Then repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God
- Moses said that you should care for your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say do also care for your enemy
- Moses said you should not murder, but I say do not even be angry with your neighbor
- Moses said that you should not commit adultery, but I say one who looks upon another woman with desire has already committed adultery in their mind.
He did also talk about every other commandment, but this is what he elaborated upon the most. Notice that the first commandment's word is "love", but love means attachment.
That is not really altering these "guidelines", but doing even better than the basic law, yielding better spiritual results. It was not Jesus' fault that the clerics had corrupted the instructions, so he had serious problems with the clergy when he talked about the two first commandments.
I see no inconsistency, except what is generated due to poor interpretations. Jesus is written in Arabic.
Yes. You should kill them unless they perform salat. And it incites hatred towards everyone who is a mushrik or kafar and may increase pride and arrogance. But that is not because it REALLY says so, but because of the hypocrites who fabricated a language on top of the real one.
Because underneath the dirt I found a treasure, and I am excavating more until it is completely revealed.
I know it is the word of "GOD", but the fabricated language is not. The dirt. It is just someone or some people who shoveled a mound of dirt on top of it.
Be well
"Arman gave your answer quite well already."
And I have given him my nice answer as well.
"The 'Old Testament' is a mix of falsehood, truth, and a lot of bad interpretations just like Quran. One should not forget a lot of the 'Old Testament' is written in Aramaic, a relative to Arabic, not to mention the strange "Hebrew"."
You believe that and yet still talk about comparing your re-interpretation of the Quran to the versions of the Torah. Should you not start by re-interpreting the older texts to assertain their authenticity before moving on to the "newer" texts to make you claims?
"Jesus said "I am in the Father and the Father in me", not that he actually was the Father, who is our Sustainer. It is like comparing it to the "umbrella-effect" I have been using as a parable on the forum."
Which aramaic text did you use to get this meaning from?
"There is one point in the 'Old Testament' in the beginning of Exodus that is worth paying attention to however, and that is when the Sustainer says to Moses that "I AM THAT I AM" and go to the Children of Israel and tell "I AM has sent me to you"."
Kindly share that original aramaic text with us so we can also check the existence of "I AM THAT I AM" etc.
"No need for worship either, but it is always good to do the will of the Father which means to be grow into perfection."
And which part of the Torah told you that there is no need for worship. We cannot discuss if you do not reference your claims.
"Jesus elaborated on some of them, without changing their fundamental meaning"
So would it be acceptable to you if Muhammad (PBUH) elaborated on many more of these things without changing their fundamental meanings?
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References!? YOU WANT REFERENCES?! YOU SHALL NOT TEST THE LORD YOUR GHOD!
Haha.
Here, I'll help to make it easier for people to go and find these things maybe
1411
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.What!? Mention of "evidence"? Uh oh!
"Aramaic Bible in Plain English
?Believe that I am in my Father and my Father in me, otherwise believe because of the works.?Exodus 314
"God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites 'I AM has sent me to you.'"John 858
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"http//biblehub.com/lexicon/exodus/3-14.htm
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Freedomstands,
The Father is also in me and I am in the Father. No big deal. Such is the result of "separating the spirit from the flesh".
Be well
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Freedomstands,
The Father is also in me and I am in the Father. No big deal. Such is the result of "separating the spirit from the flesh".
Be well
Yeah, it is no big deal to me either.
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When I say Jesus of the Gospels , I meant what the adherents of that faith believe in. Not how we interpret those very same Gospels.
Salamun Alaikum.
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Are you absolutely sure that all the adherents of Christian faith interpret the Gospels the same way? That all the adherents of Christian faith imagine Jesus to be a biological child of an entity named "God"? Or that Christians believe in 3 Gods? Did you get a chance to study the writings of Mother Terresa? Or those of Father Desmond Tutu?
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If you are referring to how the majority of the Christians interpret the Gospels - then ask yourself do you interpret the Qur'an the same way that the majority of the Muslims interpret the Qur'an?
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If you do not follow the majority interpretation of Qur'an then ask yourself are you being fair and consistent to apply your best interpretation to Qur'an and by pushing the other scriptures aside to be read only in the light of how majority of their followers understand them?
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If you are not being fair and consistent on your treatment of the scriptures, then ask yourself are you not differentiating among the messengers?
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
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Salamun Alaikum.
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Are you absolutely sure that all the adherents of Christian faith interpret the Gospels the same way? That all the adherents of Christian faith imagine Jesus to be a biological child of an entity named "God"? Or that Christians believe in 3 Gods? Did you get a chance to study the writings of Mother Terresa? Or those of Father Desmond Tutu?
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If you are referring to how the majority of the Christians interpret the Gospels - then ask yourself do you interpret the Qur'an the same way that the majority of the Muslims interpret the Qur'an?
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If you do not follow the majority interpretation of Qur'an then ask yourself are you being fair and consistent to apply your best interpretation to Qur'an and by pushing the other scriptures aside to be read only in the light of how majority of their followers understand them?
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If you are not being fair and consistent on your treatment of the scriptures, then ask yourself are you not differentiating among the messengers?
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanW/Salaam,
"1. Are you absolutely sure that all the adherents of Christian faith interpret the Gospels the same way? That all the adherents of Christian faith imagine Jesus to be a biological child of an entity named "God"? Or that Christians believe in 3 Gods? Did you get a chance to study the writings of Mother Terresa? Or those of Father Desmond Tutu?"
I don't know about their beliefs but are you talking about biblical unitarianism?
"2. If you are referring to how the majority of the Christians interpret the Gospels - then ask yourself do you interpret the Qur'an the same way that the majority of the Muslims interpret the Qur'an?"
The Christian interpretation of the Gospel is only one aspect of the issue for me. The other major one is that I believe that the Gospel (in its current form) constitutes 5% teachings of Jesus and 95% christian "Hadith" literature written by people other than the Prophet Jesus (PBUH). If I am going to start believing in Christian Hadith then why deny the Muslim hadith which has comparatively much greater credibility in its preservation?
"3. If you do not follow the majority interpretation of Qur'an then ask yourself are you being fair and consistent to apply your best interpretation to Qur'an and by pushing the other scriptures aside to be read only in the light of how majority of their followers understand them?"
I would give the bible the very same scrutiny if I believed that the bible had been preserved in its original form. Right now it is near impossible to judge what is original and what is a later addition. The only yardstick I have is the Quran. If the verses of the bible match what the Quran says then I have no issue in following both. However, when things like, Jesus dieng on the cross for our sins show up in the bible, or God wrestling with Jacob etc then I set it aside and consider it be a faulty book.
"4. If you are not being fair and consistent on your treatment of the scriptures, then ask yourself are you not differentiating among the messengers?"
This has nothing to do with differentiating between the Messengers. All messengers were great men of God and brought us the same message. The last message i.e. the Quran is the only one in its complete and unaltered form. Hence, we use it to determine the right and the wrong within the scripture books of the Jews and the Christians.
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The Christian interpretation of the Gospel is only one aspect of the issue for me. The other major one is that I believe that the Gospel (in its current form) constitutes 5% teachings of Jesus and 95% christian "Hadith" literature written by people other than the Prophet Jesus (PBUH). If I am going to start believing in Christian Hadith then why deny the Muslim hadith which has comparatively much greater credibility in its preservation?
Salam UserOnlyOneGod and others.
546 And We made Jesus son of Mary follow their footsteps - confirming what was up until him (literally between his hands) of the Torah, and We gave him the Gospel ? in it guidance and light, and confirming what was up until it (literally between its hands) of the Torah and guidance and instruction for the conscious.
547 And let the fraternity of the Gospel judge with what Allah has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what Allah has sent down then they are the ones ? they are willfully disobeying.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
The Gospels we have with us today were canonized in third and fourth century before Qur'an was sent down. So per my humble understanding Qur'an does not support the idea of wholesale rejection of the Gospels.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
The Biblical Gospels are of higher integrity than 5%. It is quite thorough actually, but the translations are poor and definitions misinterpreted.
Son of God is entirely on spiritual level where God is the "Father" of the Spirit inherent in every human soul. And only those who "separate the Spirit from the flesh" (its delusional effect) can see the Father and Spirit. Father does not imply any gender but the word stems from the Semitic languages and would mean that you are an initiator of life.
Be well
Emanuel