Questions to Layth - the 'true' state of the Quran ???

khalil

Peace Ayman

Yes the book is from The God. The "quran"/reading is simply what we do with the book, we read it. Hence, the "quran"/reading at dawn is not a title, it is an action that we must do.

Interesting point, you have good observation.

pz

hlatif

Salam all,

To me, the essence of the root Ain-Lam-Mim is to Know. All the other meanings of the derivatives of the root stem from this understanding. Here are some examples
AAaLIMA= He knew
ILM= knowledge
ALLAMA= He made (someone) know or he made (something) known
ALAMA as in 1616 Something to know by (which would be understood as marking)

So to me the ALLAMA AL QUR'an would mean He Made the Qu'an Known with all the potential meanings of it. Most importantly, is that he made people know it through learning it. If you want to use MARK as the meaning then it will have to relate to knowledge somehow.

I ma not clear what Layth means by MARKED the Qur'an. Take care y'all and have a great day

Hussein

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Layth, Ayman, Khalil, Hlatif,

Layth, I see what you mean by 'alamaatin' by 16/16, but to me, 55/2's translation as 'marking' doesn't fit. You see, I don't see 'al-insaan' as 'biological man' but rather 'civilised man'. How I would interpret 55/1-2 is Ar-Rahmaan has given information of al-quraan and evolved civilised man and taught him the clarification. This is the process.

All Suras are comprised of verses...So nothing changes here.
We know from all these debates that the Scripture was revealed in verse form over a number of years and was not finalized into all the respective Suras until the end (with some possible exceptions)...Thus it is more historically logical that 37 would speak to people of 'verses' and not 'suras' which they may not fully recognize or know.

But Layth, the Quran does use the word 'sura' elsewhere. It would have used the word sura here if it meant it, at least in my perception of how the book works.
As for point 2, you know I can't get on board with a historical process analysis, because then, we'd have to use historical resource. I respect your view but would have to differ.

From my reading thus far, Only the Quran needs to be upheld fully...The remainder is supporting evidence/historical collections/prophecies/etc...
Both are from God and will remain so until the end of time

But man, this would mean a HUGE chunk of ahkaam from suras 4,5,6,8,9 would be 'relative' and not to be upheld fully. The entire Quranic system would be compromised here.

It may linguisticaaly mean 'compliation' as you said, but it is a very unique compilation which has been identified by such a name "Quran", as have the other unique compilations previously named the "Torah" and the "Injeel".

Ok, well, to me the word 'jama'hu' in 75/17 indicates the entirety of the collection. Once again, this all goes back to our principles of understanding.

It is the part of the Scripture that God has dared and challenged all His creation to duplicate...While the remainder He has warned them against attempting to duplicate with their hands

What is the essential difference between marked and unmarked suras which you can see ? Believe me, I WANT to get on board with this (my nafs is still not strong enough to stay neutral). The letters have been on my mind for nearly 15 years. But of course brother, I need to be completely thorough ) . Thanks for the stimulus though.

peace.

Layth

Peace MQ,

I will try my best to answer your queeries, but keep in mind all this information is new to me as well, so any shortcommings are purly mine.

Layth, I see what you mean by 'alamaatin' by 16/16, but to me, 55/2's translation as 'marking' doesn't fit. You see, I don't see 'al-insaan' as 'biological man' but rather 'civilised man'. How I would interpret 55/1-2 is Ar-Rahmaan has given information of al-quraan and evolved civilised man and taught him the clarification. This is the process.

Examine it from a pure language point of view...

"Al-Rahman 3lam Al-Quran"

Who does the act of '3lam' revert back to?

I see it as reverting to 'Al-Quran' istelf...

As for Insaan being a civilized man, that is all well and said, but I cannot see that link with the '3lam' at this point.

But Layth, the Quran does use the word 'sura' elsewhere. It would have used the word sura here if it meant it, at least in my perception of how the book works.

Suras are made of verses...So I see this as being more accurate than had it been 'Suras' (especially since the Suras were yet to be compiled).

As for point 2, you know I can't get on board with a historical process analysis, because then, we'd have to use historical resource. I respect your view but would have to differ.

No need for a historical source...Use the Scripture itself in this regards

Scripture tells us it was revealed over a period of time.
Scripture tells us it's verses were arranged by the prophet through divine inspiration.

But man, this would mean a HUGE chunk of ahkaam from suras 4,5,6,8,9 would be 'relative' and not to be upheld fully. The entire Quranic system would be compromised here.

I thought about this for some time...The 'core' laws are actually all in the initialed chapters, while the remainder only provides support or further information (see the example of theft with Joseph and his brother).

I do not think we will be in a worse state than we are in today, we will actually have more focus on the key laws which are the most important to construct a viable society.

What is the essential difference between marked and unmarked suras which you can see ? Believe me, I WANT to get on board with this (my nafs is still not strong enough to stay neutral). The letters have been on my mind for nearly 15 years. But of course brother, I need to be completely thorough . Thanks for the stimulus though.

I respect and admire your persistance in searching for answers...I have also had the same thoughts about the structure of the Scripture.

Speaking in general, I see the difference within Muslims and the factions that have existed have all been based on the non-initialed Suras...If these are the 'mutashabihaat' then it makes sence they have been a 'fitna' since not everyone can grasp their undertsanding (what does you will ride a craft upon a craft mean, or we have given you the 'kawthar', etc.).

If this understanding is correct, then it will change many things, mainly to remove the difficulty that all people who are Muslims encounter when trying to study the whole Scripture.

unknownuser

As I said over a year ago, there is a fundamental difference between al-ktab and al-koran. The 2 terms are not interchangeable as al-koran makes reference to al-ktab, thus meaning that al-ktab is obviously an entity that is external to al-koran.

This is the same mistake when people quote

"Should I seek a hkmn other than allh when he has revealed al-ktab.." 11114

This verse being so often quoted by people on this forum and elsewhere.

If this understanding is correct, then it will change many things, mainly to remove the difficulty that all people who are Muslims encounter when trying to study the whole Scripture.

Exactly. Now that I am quite confident in my understanding of what al-ktab refers to after many years of study, I am quite assured on the meaning of the initials as MQ is talking about.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum )

Welcome back 'The artist formerly known as gentile' ! Don't do the Batdance for us, yeah ?

Al-kitaab is definitely not al-qur'aan. Btw, the verse is 6/114, not 11/114.

What do you think of the initials and the initalled chapter ?

good to have you back, big guy.

thanks and peace.

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Layth,

I will try my best to answer your queeries, but keep in mind all this information is new to me as well, so any shortcommings are purly mine.

Of course. Same here. The last 2 days, I have been poring over al-qur'aan trying to put together your hypothesis but man, it doesn't seem to fit completely, sorry to say.

I thought about this for some time...The 'core' laws are actually all in the initialed chapters, while the remainder only provides support or further information (see the example of theft with Joseph and his brother).

Ok, let me see if I get this straight, here

story of 'cutting of wealth' is found in Sura 12, an initialled chapter.
the law about cutting of the wealth is in sura 5, an uninitalled chapter.

So sura 12 provides the muhkamaat for sura 5's mutashabih ? Did I get that right?

I do not think we will be in a worse state than we are in today, we will actually have more focus on the key laws which are the most important to construct a viable society.

Well, I'm not sure I agree with you completely, but your theory DOES work for suras 2 and 3 then 4,5 and 6. Suras 2 deals with downfall and rises of nations while sura provides a blueprint on how actualise it, in my reading. Suras 4 , 5 and 6 provide a kind of grounding for that society. I'll need to read more into this, Layth.

Speaking in general, I see the difference within Muslims and the factions that have existed have all been based on the non-initialed Suras...If these are the 'mutashabihaat' then it makes sence they have been a 'fitna' since not everyone can grasp their undertsanding (what does you will ride a craft upon a craft mean, or we have given you the 'kawthar', etc.).

If this understanding is correct, then it will change many things, mainly to remove the difficulty that all people who are Muslims encounter when trying to study the whole Scripture

If this works, its also a means on how to seek grounding for the Quranic system. I need to read more into this. Many thanks for this discussion.

peace.

Layth

Peace MQ,

Of course. Same here. The last 2 days, I have been poring over al-qur'aan trying to put together your hypothesis but man, it doesn't seem to fit completely, sorry to say.

Tell me where you are having the problems and I will look into it. From my side I have seen the fit to be quite well.

Ok, let me see if I get this straight, here

story of 'cutting of wealth' is found in Sura 12, an initialled chapter.
the law about cutting of the wealth is in sura 5, an uninitalled chapter.

So sura 12 provides the muhkamaat for sura 5's mutashabih ? Did I get that right?

Yes, through Sura 12 you are aware of the application of the law, without needing to read it in written form (thus you will not go wrong)...While Sura 5 has the law in written form, and we know this has created hand amputations since it has been misunderstood (eventhough linguistically the Sunnis are right in the way they interpret it).

I can also recall for example the law of 'rape' which you can find its example in Sura 12 (when Joseph is sent to jail for 3-5 years) while there is no written law anywhere else to give this information.

Well, I'm not sure I agree with you completely, but your theory DOES work for suras 2 and 3 then 4,5 and 6. Suras 2 deals with downfall and rises of nations while sura provides a blueprint on how actualise it, in my reading. Suras 4 , 5 and 6 provide a kind of grounding for that society. I'll need to read more into this, Layth.

I am also continuing to read into this, but for the time being it seems to work quite well (unless you can share with me problems that you have encountered so I can review them as well).

If this works, its also a means on how to seek grounding for the Quranic system. I need to read more into this. Many thanks for this discussion.

We are all here to learn...I am only happy that something I said has been of benefit.

shamsul-arefin

we see what we want to see.....So which comes first ? The will OR the vission ?

peace

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Layth,

Tell me where you are having the problems and I will look into it. From my side I have seen the fit to be quite well.

Well, at this point, I think you and I are defining muhkaam and mutashabih in 2 opposite ways !

For you, 'muhkaam' is something happening in the world, and thus defined and mutashabih are laws similar to this. Ok, I think you have support for this in 10/109 which says

Follow thou the inspiration sent unto thee, and be patient and constant, till God do decide for He is the best to decide.

If you notice, 'hatta yahkum Allah' (until God decides) shows that 'hukm' of Allah is something which actualises in the world (like his punishment). So your definition of muHKAMaat may have to do with actualising events in the world.

The problem is, actual LAWS are also considered hukm. For example, 4/64-65 speaks about a judgement delivered and how imaan ties back to submission to that judgement.

I guess what Im trying to say is, 'muhkamaat' doesn't seem to have 'sphere'. Its sphere is the totality of the book.

However, this doesnt negate the fact that suras 4,5,6,8,9 doesnt have the letters and they are dealing with mostly laws.

Need to continue research , insha Allah.

thanks and peace.