Life without usury
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Peace to everyone.
I would like to share an excellent article about Usury with you. It's a very interesting and thought provoking article, in my opinion. Therefore I deeply recommend it.
Life without usury
http//studimonetari.org/articoli/lifewithoutusury.html
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At least be sure to never loan money to a person and ask for more in return.
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Salam.
The author of the article has a deep fantasy of going back to the middle ages. Suffices to say, I do not share these fantasies. I am deeply grateful to my Master for allowing me to experience the era when Humans have been able to fine tune and aggregate and build upon the learning of thousands of years.
2211 Ask the children of Israel how many of clear signs we gave them. And whoever changes Allah?s blessings from after which came to him, then indeed Allah is intense in punishment!
(My personal translation; cross checking is recommended.)
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Peace Arman, all,
Whether you like the article or not, it seems that the Quran does not support Usury (excessive interest). It also seems that the Quran does not support "interest." In other words, "usury and interest" seem incompatible with the teachings of the Quran.
Quran 2275 Those who consume usury, do not rise except as the one who is being beaten by the devil out of direct touch. That is because they have said, "Trade is like usury." Indeed God has made trade lawful, yet He has forbidden usury. Whoever has received understanding from His Lord and ceases, then he will be forgiven for what was before this and his case will be with God. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the fire, in it they will abide eternally.
I would like to share a few paragraphs from the book "The Quranic System of Sustenance" with you. I consider the information in these paragraphs very interesting and eye-opening.
A few paragraphs from page 244-245 in the book
What is riba?
Let us begin with riba or interest. The Qur?an gives the fundamental meaning of riba as follows
O you who have conviction! Fear God, and give up what remains of your demand for interest (riba), if you are indeed people of conviction. / If you don?t, take notice of war from God and His Messenger but if you turn back, you shall have your capital sums; do not deal unjustly , and you shall not be dealt with unjustly. 2278-9
From this we can see that
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If a lender takes back only the exact amount that he loaned to the borrower, then this will be just and fair to the borrower.
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If a lender takes even a small amount as interest, this is unfair to the borrower.
This in short is how the Qur?an defines riba. It means ?to take more?, no matter how small that amount may be. This definition is
clear and unequivocal. Generally it is said amongst Muslims that compound interest is prohibited (haraam) whilst regular interest is permissible. This is an erroneous belief, and they usually derive this view from the following verseO you who have conviction! do not devour riba, doubled and multiplied; but fear God; that you may prosper. 3130
However they have misinterpreted the meaning of the verse. Imam Raghib has said that in this verse, the word moza?afatun is
actually derived from the root zafun, meaning, ?to reduce?, and not zefun, which means ?to accumulate?.Therefore the real meaning of this verse should be written as
O you who have conviction! do not devour riba, which will diminish and reduce ; but fear God; that you may prosper. 3130
Hence the verse is really telling us that in the long term riba actually serves to reduce people?s prosperity (that is, it reduces the viability of an economy) and those who consume interest become increasingly unproductive, both in their abilities (out of a lack of
need to work) and in their capacity (as they become lazy). In the long term this shrinks the economy as a whole. It is a self-evident fact that in capitalist systems those at the top become completely unproductive, and the overall national economy suffers.
Generally Muslims tend to identify riba only with interest on loans, but again this is a misconception. The term riba should be
understood holistically and indeed this is how the Divine system of sustenance treats it. The real question is Is a return legitimate only on labour, or is a return on capital legitimate as well? According to the Qur?anMan can have nothing but what he strives for 5339
Hence the former is a legitimate form of return, and the latter (return on capital) is not. This means that any type of loan involvinginterest (and in which the lender will profit without making any physical effort on his part) will be deemed riba and thus haraam or forbidden in the Qur?an, and is effectively an act of rebellion against ?God and His messenger? (2279).
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Peace Arman, all,
Whether you like the article or not, it seems that the Quran does not support Usury (excessive interest). It also seems that the Quran does not support "interest." In other words, "usury and interest" seem incompatible with the teachings of the Quran.
Quran 2275 Those who consume usury, do not rise except as the one who is being beaten by the devil out of direct touch. That is because they have said, "Trade is like usury." Indeed God has made trade lawful, yet He has forbidden usury. Whoever has received understanding from His Lord and ceases, then he will be forgiven for what was before this and his case will be with God. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the fire, in it they will abide eternally.
I would like to share a few paragraphs from the book "The Quranic System of Sustenance" with you. I consider the information in these paragraphs very interesting and eye-opening.
A few paragraphs from page 244-245 in the book
What is riba?
Let us begin with riba or interest. The Qur?an gives the fundamental meaning of riba as follows
O you who have conviction! Fear God, and give up what remains of your demand for interest (riba), if you are indeed people of conviction. / If you don?t, take notice of war from God and His Messenger but if you turn back, you shall have your capital sums; do not deal unjustly , and you shall not be dealt with unjustly. 2278-9
From this we can see that
-
If a lender takes back only the exact amount that he loaned to the borrower, then this will be just and fair to the borrower.
-
If a lender takes even a small amount as interest, this is unfair to the borrower.
This in short is how the Qur?an defines riba. It means ?to take more?, no matter how small that amount may be. This definition is
clear and unequivocal. Generally it is said amongst Muslims that compound interest is prohibited (haraam) whilst regular interest is permissible. This is an erroneous belief, and they usually derive this view from the following verseO you who have conviction! do not devour riba, doubled and multiplied; but fear God; that you may prosper. 3130
However they have misinterpreted the meaning of the verse. Imam Raghib has said that in this verse, the word moza?afatun is
actually derived from the root zafun, meaning, ?to reduce?, and not zefun, which means ?to accumulate?.Therefore the real meaning of this verse should be written as
O you who have conviction! do not devour riba, which will diminish and reduce ; but fear God; that you may prosper. 3130
Hence the verse is really telling us that in the long term riba actually serves to reduce people?s prosperity (that is, it reduces the viability of an economy) and those who consume interest become increasingly unproductive, both in their abilities (out of a lack of
need to work) and in their capacity (as they become lazy). In the long term this shrinks the economy as a whole. It is a self-evident fact that in capitalist systems those at the top become completely unproductive, and the overall national economy suffers.
Generally Muslims tend to identify riba only with interest on loans, but again this is a misconception. The term riba should be
understood holistically and indeed this is how the Divine system of sustenance treats it. The real question is Is a return legitimate only on labour, or is a return on capital legitimate as well? According to the Qur?anMan can have nothing but what he strives for 5339
Hence the former is a legitimate form of return, and the latter (return on capital) is not. This means that any type of loan involvinginterest (and in which the lender will profit without making any physical effort on his part) will be deemed riba and thus haraam or forbidden in the Qur?an, and is effectively an act of rebellion against ?God and His messenger? (2279).
Asking more for what you give is an evil and unjust practice which "makes the rich richer and the poor poorer.
I don't think the poor are absolutely obligated, if struggling, not to take loans if that is the system they are stuck in, and the Qur'an focuses its harshness towards the money lenders who ask for interest or more than what they give out back from the people in need.
As a mercy to the poor, I think they are allowed to take loans from such villains, but doing it continues to support the system, and it can be better to avoid it as well only if and when it is possibly to avoid it if possible, but the Qur'an has threatened the the money lenders mainly and not those who are being taken advantage of by them.
The practice of taking money on loans was considered unjust and evil in many parts of the world, and only a few groups practiced it, just as Jews exclusively towards gentiles (it was illegal for them to do it to their own people generally) and the Uighurs and others who were generally despised for this practice by the surrounding people who all identified it as unjust and villainous.
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Here is a good watch
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0Here is the point. Let's say the the whole world have 1 million dollars. That money is the total money printed in the universe. And then, you give it to people with a small "fee", only 1%, and it is not accumulated. So, how much money do you think should exist now? 1.01 millions. Yes, 1 million plus 10k dollars. So, how do people pay it when there is not enough money. Well, yes, that is usury(interest, small fee, administration cost, whatever the name).
And here is the amusing fact. Usury is pretty common in the old age, where each kingdom lend their resources to another kingdom. And they used gold ;D
ROFL
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Here is a good watch
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0Here is the point. Let's say the the whole world have 1 million dollars. That money is the total money printed in the universe. And then, you give it to people with a small "fee", only 1%, and it is not accumulated. So, how much money do you think should exist now? 1.01 millions. Yes, 1 million plus 10k dollars. So, how do people pay it when there is not enough money. Well, yes, that is usury(interest, small fee, administration cost, whatever the name).
And here is the amusing fact. Usury is pretty common in the old age, where each kingdom lend their resources to another kingdom. And they used gold ;D
ROFL
Salamun Alaikum
?The total amount of money supply is constant, hence charging interest is wrong? - is a very na?ve understanding which can only appeal to those who lack the very basic understanding of how a modern monetary system works. First of all, the paper currency is not the only form of money ? any time anyone is creating a promissory note that can be exchanged, they are essentially creating a form of ?money?. But more importantly the money supply does not indicate the wealth availability in the society, rather money supply multiplied by the number of time it changes hand indicates the wealth handover in a given period. For example with the same $1 note a farmer can buy fish from the fisherman, the fisherman can buy book from the teacher and the teacher can buy grains from the farmer ? and all can happen on the same day. The ?$1? by no means indicates the amount of wealth available, or even the amount of wealth that changed hand. ?$1? is simply a nominal idea which a community of people accepts as reasonably stable ?unit? of value. The central banks simply try to regulate the money supply to manage the inflationary environment of the country. If the central bank fails to keep reasonable stability between money supply and real economic activity, hyperinflation / deflation will destroy the currency.
The idea that the Qur?anic term RIBA means ?Interest? and thereby all form of interest is prohibited is a harmful oversimplification. This oversimplification is a legacy of our so called ?infallible imams? who were simply applying the prevailing moral understanding based on the work of the Greek philosophers. The entire world moved on with more sophisticated understanding of financial ethics, but we (the so called ?Muslims?) could not shed the baggage put on our shoulder by our ancestors. RIBA simply means ?(undue) Excess?. Not all form of interest is an ?(undue) Excess?, and not all types of ?(undue) Excess? is an interest.
I have described my understanding of RIBA here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606569.msg350924#msg350924
(I highly recommend the linked article of Dr. Ahmad Shafaat as the thorough reference)
With more clarifications here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605358.msg352195#msg352195
If you are still not convinced you can try to answer my questions here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606569.msg351778#msg351778
If you have been convinced that the so called ?Islamic Finance? products are interest free in true sense then it is time to wake up. These are nothing but a marketing gimmick to brand and sale the financial products to religiously sensitive people. A fair compensation for deferred consumption on the part of the lender is an absolutely basic term of trade. There is no way to reject it and come up with an economic model that makes practical sense.
Allah does not burden any soul beyond its capacity. For it - is whatever it earns and upon it is whatever is earned against it. Our Master, please not hold us accountable if we forget or we make mistake. Our Master, and please not lay upon us a load like what you laid on those from before us. Our Master and please not lay upon us a burden which we have no strength to bear. And pardon from us and forgive for us and have mercy on us - You are our Protector, so help us upon the (faith) repressing people.
Regards,
ArmanP.S. FreedomStands I suggest you take careful note. Since you plan to make a career in the business world it is better you align your conscience with your beliefs. Otherwise like many traditional Islamists you may have to live a life of hypocrisy.
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The total amount of money supply is constant, hence charging interest is wrong? - is a very na?ve understanding which can only appeal to those who lack the very basic understanding of how a modern monetary system works. First of all, the paper currency is not the only form of money ? any time anyone is creating a promissory note that can be exchanged, they are essentially creating a form of ?money?. But more importantly the money supply does not indicate the wealth availability in the society, rather money supply multiplied by the number of time it changes hand indicates the wealth handover in a given period. For example with the same $1 note a farmer can buy fish from the fisherman, the fisherman can buy book from the teacher and the teacher can buy grains from the farmer ? and all can happen on the same day. The ?$1? by no means indicates the amount of wealth available, or even the amount of wealth that changed hand. ?$1? is simply a nominal idea which a community of people accepts as reasonably stable ?unit? of value. The central banks simply try to regulate the money supply to manage the inflationary environment of the country. If the central bank fails to keep reasonable stability between money supply and real economic activity, hyperinflation / deflation will destroy the currency.
Yes it is, money is not a wealth standard. In the old day, people used silver. Which is half cent can buy you a drink. As for something above 1 silver, it is in the form of metals, as for something above it, it is on bill form, which is paper. The real wealth is what you have, the food, the computers, internet, house, car, and the most important thing, your time, how do you used it. Most of the material is cheap, even priceless, you can destroy the environtment with it, but the time processing it, that is what is worthy.
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Yes it is, money is not a wealth standard. In the old day, people used silver. Which is half cent can buy you a drink. As for something above 1 silver, it is in the form of metals, as for something above it, it is on bill form, which is paper. The real wealth is what you have, the food, the computers, internet, house, car, and the most important thing, your time, how do you used it. Most of the material is cheap, even priceless, you can destroy the environtment with it, but the time processing it, that is what is worthy.
Good, if you do understand this, then you should also understand "Let's say the whole world has 1 million dollars" is not a valid premise to begin with. Real wealth grows (with the authorization of Allah). The land grows corps, cows give milk, chickens lay eggs and real estate generates value by providing accommodation. If it is logical to claim a fixed compensation for lending (i.e. renting) a piece of land to a tenant; it should be equally logical and ethical to claim a fixed compensation for lending the equivalent value of the land in any other form (say paper currency) - AS LONG AS the transaction is between the contracting parties at a "fair price" agreed upon by both parties with mutual satisfaction and full disclosure and executed with adequate witness (terms of trade elaborated in 2282-283). Then whoever seeks to gain "(undue) excess" by lying, cheating, stealing, coercing or otherwise taking advantage of the vulnerabilities of the counterparty - then they are the ones ? the society of the fire; they will be in there permanently.
2245 Who is the one who will lend Allah a nice loan so He multiplies it for him increasing manifold. And Allah constricts and stretches - and you will be returned to Him.
(My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.)
If you are open to learn from the teaching of Jesus to supplement our understanding of Qur'an, you may check the "parable of the talents" in this regard. But if the name of Bible gives you creeps, then never mind - just stay with the logic.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Hi,
I reread about your answer and has read about the parable of the talent, but cant understand your view based on it. If Christiant was allowing usury, so be it, but, for Islam, dont. Or for me, not. I can see difficulty where we not allowing todo usury, people wont lend their money, but if that was the reason, we're degrading "Good deed".
If you're doing it, please do, but endorsing it as Islam, or "Islam".Abou "Islamic Finance" if they do take usury based our standard or my standard, then simple. They wrong.
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Hi,
I reread about your answer and has read about the parable of the talent, but cant understand your view based on it. If Christiant was allowing usury, so be it, but, for Islam, dont. Or for me, not. I can see difficulty where we not allowing todo usury, people wont lend their money, but if that was the reason, we're degrading "Good deed".
If you're doing it, please do, but endorsing it as Islam, or "Islam".Abou "Islamic Finance" if they do take usury based our standard or my standard, then simple. They wrong.
Did you manage to read the links provided here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607684.msg374288#msg374288
How about the article of Dr. Ahmad Shafaat?
I mentioned "Parable of Talent" only as a supplemental reading.
Regards,
Arman -
Hi there,
to Freedomstands,
Here I am again,many islamic scholars have differed here ,as to what is "Al Riba"this is a quranic word,hundreds of books have been written on this word,but sorry to see that people still have different opinions about this word.
Ask Google,it will tellyou what usury is,it is not interest,it is excessive undue charge on money given as loan,1450 years back interest or banks were not there,and some money lenders used to charge very very heavy amounts on the money they lend ,as quran says,doubleor four times or even more.Nowif you go to bank, ask for 500 dollars, bank will give you on the condition that you have to pay 15% interest permonth,now after one month you will have to give back 500+15% ,this becomes 575,but in early islamic era it will become 1000 to 4000 depending upon the deal you make.,interest was not there in those days,usury is also prohibited for jews and christians as well,like in islam.,interest started onlyabout 250 years back.I still need your guidance,please help!!thanks for reading all this. -
Hi there,
to Freedomstands,
Here I am again,many islamic scholars have differed here ,as to what is "Al Riba"this is a quranic word,hundreds of books have been written on this word,but sorry to see that people still have different opinions about this word.
Ask Google,it will tellyou what usury is,it is not interest,it is excessive undue charge on money given as loan,1450 years back interest or banks were not there,and some money lenders used to charge very very heavy amounts on the money they lend ,as quran says,doubleor four times or even more.Nowif you go to bank, ask for 500 dollars, bank will give you on the condition that you have to pay 15% interest permonth,now after one month you will have to give back 500+15% ,this becomes 575,but in early islamic era it will become 1000 to 4000 depending upon the deal you make.,interest was not there in those days,usury is also prohibited for jews and christians as well,like in islam.,interest started onlyabout 250 years back.I still need your guidance,please help!!thanks for reading all this.That seems to be an excuse made later on. In the ancient world, it was recognized even in Rome and other places that charges more for a loan was considered wrong and evil, and in the Christian world this practice was relegated to Jews who defended their position with their scriptures. In the modern world, the definition was written to reflect the changing attitudes towards interest taking due to its prevalence in the places where interest was being taken on loans. In Ancient China, the Uighur Turks were the only ones who practiced this and it was considered despicable, it wasn't about "how much" it was that it was considered unjust and unreasonable for anyone to give something and receive it back asking for more than they gave. They did not generally have advanced economic concepts or calculations like "the change in value of money being accounted for" or "international economies" or anything like that.
The Qur'an does not forbid taking loans from unjust people, but does forbid the taking of more if you loan out anything. So if you give a loan, simply take the amount given back and do what you think is best and most righteous, and Fear Allah, and avoid evil, and remit any losses to charity, do not fret over the depreciation in value or anything like that unless some major damage was done to what you loaned out and there was an agreement that if any damages are done you will be paid compensation, and in the case of money, other agreements can be made but generally if you loan 20, you ask for 20 back, not 20.50, and this was the system and understanding of Rome before and after Christianity, and China, and its a very basic human understanding, that if you give something out as a temporary loan and expect it back, you receive back what you gave out, not less and not more.
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Garbage
Dollar is a fiat currency imposed upon the rest of the world as a reserve currency after the Breton woods agreement. If you & i play monopoly and I have a paper printing machine I win everytime