CAN ALLAH BE EVERYWHERE
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Freedomstands,
When you fabricate a language on top of another it is not authentic but rather a delusion for those who hearken unto it.
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Firstly, the "free will" issue changes nothing. "What happens happens", so it is practically
irrelevent entirely. What you know as "free will" and the experience which you are referring
to, is not being denied here at all. You certainly experience "choice" and "make decisions"
and whatever else, those are real experiences, I experience that too of course.
The question is about making the claim that "Chance" is the determining power, and "God
leaves it to Chance, God doesn't know, God doesn't control".
Ok well I DO believe that God is the determining power but I also believe that man has free will over his own choices in life. In your post here you seem to agree with that concept of choice which I felt was missing from your posting in
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607626.0There you say that even the good and the bad that a person does is not through his own choice but it is simply God doing it. And I quote you
"All things means all things, from your thoughts, to your actions, to even your "will" and desires, all of it is "information" and God is the creator of it actively, all of it, we are completely helpless before God and in a state of surrender, willingly or unwillingly, and that is just the fact of the situation and the reality of life. That doesn't mean we just drop down and die, but we realize that whatever we do, good or bad, is God doing it, even the prayers we utter from our mouth or our curses, and whether it is good for us later or not, is also God, and if God harms anyone or benefits anyone, that is God's will which is entirely Free, the only "Free Will""
"Even in that sense though, "God created everything" "God creates everything", meaning that even the disbelief, the lies, the moral wickedness people think of and the performance, all of it are the creations of Allah specifically as they occur in every detail. So if "Jack rapes Jane" the specific way in which that rape occurs, Jack's intention to do it, all his thoughts, Jane's suffering, and Jack's immorality and "evilness" is all the creation of Allah and it was also God who made it so, if God had not willed it, Jane never would have been raped, nor would Jack have ever thought of it. Jack has no power on his own, nor does Jane have any power to prevent the calamity or disaster or evilness of being raped by Jack. The rape of Jane was the will of God, and the will of God was thus that Jack does evil, and that Jane suffers evil, and every element of that experience both of them had in whatever ways they had it is "information" which Allah created, there simply is not other creator of information or concepts or anything. We hope that God will do whatever is most pleasant, but God does whatever God wills."
What you say above would make anyone believe that you think that man has no 'self control' because all control in a human beings actions in life is in the hands of God. So thereby it is not man doing it, or Jack, as in your example above. So Jack is not responsible for his actions if he has no free will to determine it one way or another.
I believe that man DOES have choices in life (when given the choice) to do the right thing or the wrong thing. What I do not believe is that those actions themselves, or the man himself, determine his future trajectory in life. Meaning that, mans actions do not control his future, it is only God who determines it. It is not that God has left things to chance, because he hasn't, it is only Gods will and power that may guide a mans life in whatever direction he may choose. Man has no power over the direction, because that is the unseen, but man does have power over his body and his decisions in the present. That for me is free-will Granted to us from God.
"The prayers are from Allah. We ask that Allah makes us good people, grateful, if Allah doesn't do it, we won't do it, and even such a prayer coming to our mind is from Allah, just like the bad things or "evil that befalls you in yourselves" is from Allah too. This is why Allah is to be dreaded utterly, but the Fear of Allah will not come to anyone except as Allah wills."
I accept the point where you say that "We ask that Allah makes us good people, grateful, if Allah doesn't do it, we won't do it" but what I don't accept is when you contradict your own statement by saying "and even such a prayer coming to our mind is from Allah, just like the bad things or "evil that befalls you in yourselves" is from Allah too". If you think that our thoughts are not in our control then I feel that you do not accept the verses where God says in the Quran that he will Judge people for their actions and decisions in life. Even Adam and Eve were judged for their actions and so was iblis. Now that of course doesn't mean that God did not know that they may do such a thing, or that he did not have the power to stop it, but to say that God would not Allow such a thing to happen is, in my mind, trying to impose your own restrictions on Gods free will.
God may allow anything he wants. God has the power of the unseen where we do not. Is this not what even the Angels questioned God on? And God says to them that I know what you do not (so basically a shut up call to them). So allowing people to make decisions is absolutely his sole prerogative. But how those decisions impact the future of Gods creation is not within the control of the creation itself, but only within Gods control. It is not about chance then, it is about Gods control over our lives, but mans free will also plays its part, otherwise, no judgement and no justice for mankind.
"Allah can do whatever Allah wants to do or write whatever Allah wants to write. Can ask a question, and animate the answer, good or bad. This is not a problem."
When you believe that Allah can do what he wants to do then you must also accept that he can choose to give man free will to choose when faced with the decision between right and wrong. When you say that Allah can write what he wants to write, are you saying that the message of the Quran is of no value if man has no control over whether he does good or bad in life?
"Questions, Answers, Walking, Sitting, Laughing, Crying, Will, Slavery, Murder, Piss, Slaughter, Blood, Every word you speak, Every thought you think, these are all CREATIONS they are what God CREATES, it is not left to "Chance" and there is no DETERMINER but GOD ALONE."
I agree that all things whether we call them "good" or "bad" are all creations of the one mighty God. But I think that we have simply been told to choose between the two.
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And not I have created the jinn and the mankind except that they obey Me.
Wama khalaqtu aljinna waal-insa illa liyaAAbudooni (slaves)But-but-but! They don't! Do they? So is someone who says they don't, suggesting that Allah
failed in the creation? That it "slipped"? That Allah made an error? That some other power
(Chance) determined that Allah did not create exactly what was intended? That Allah is a
failure, Allah has failed, Allah did not get what Allah wanted, Allah wanted something and
didn't get it. Poor baby allah, aww, did the widdle creation slip out of your baby hand
m'lord? Aww, isn't that cute, isn't that sad, aww your "needs" are not met, aww you didny geh
wuh yu wunted, ohhh poor allah, baby allah didn't get what he wanted, baby Allah failed in
his creation. IS THAT IT? IS THAT IT? HUH? HUH? Nay! N'e'e'e'e.
Then God also goes on to say that
"And verily, for those who do wrong, there is a portion of torment like to the evil portion of torment (which came for) their likes (of old), so let them not ask Me to hasten on! "
"Woe, then, to the Unbelievers, on account of that Day of theirs which they have been promised!"So God does know that there will be disbelievers. Hence their account of deeds on the promised day.
BTW the translations I have use the word "serve me" or "worship me", either way, the ultimate PURPOSE of mankinds creation is for them to obey / worship / serve God alone. And we will all do that whether we do it willingly or unwillingly (more on this further).
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Do they seek, perchance, a faith other than in God, although it is unto Him that whateveris in the heavens and on earth surrenders itself, willingly or unwillingly, and unto Him
all must return?
Oh MahaKal! You are the Eternal Truth! You are the Death and the Destruction! You are the
Destiny and the Goal! The Triumph through Defeat, which is the Surrender! Blessed Be the
King! All are fallen! Standing only at your command! Hast thou given them knowledge of it? It
is you who Know! Fall into rank, all you travelers and pilgrims of the Great Death, if you
are made slaves, and not, if you are made rebels!
Of course mankind will surrender themselves to God whether willingly (in this lifetime) or unwillingly (on the day of judgement). You say they cannot seek another faith on their own (God is the one that does it), however in your own quoted verse God say that they can. Which is further emphasised by the verse preceding the one you quoted which says
"If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors."They are obviously transgressors because they transgress Gods limits and his commands in this life. No free will, no transgression.
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And before God prostrate themselves, willingly or unwillingly, all that are in theheavens and on earth, as do their shadows in the mornings and the evenings. (Just like
the Shadows, will you be Ninja like me?)
Defy me at your own peril! Whatever you do, it is the will of God that you do it!
Yes man will submit to God either willingly (by accepting his message in Islam) or unwillingly when hes brought to his knees and shown the truth on the day of judgement.
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But you cannot will it unless God wills for, behold, God is indeed all-seeing, wise.The verse before this says
"Verily! This (Verses of the Quran) is an admonition, so whosoever wills, let him take a Path to his Lord (Allah)."So therefore man cannot simply "will" his way on to the right path, because God is indeed the all-seeing and knows what that man does or has done. So the straight path is not just about a mans will but also about his actions in life.
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But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men andstones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
And the previous verse says
"And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful."
I think that is self explanatory.
We can go on with the verses you quoted but I think you get my point of view on this.
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Then God also goes on to say that
"And verily, for those who do wrong, there is a portion of torment like to the evil portion of torment (which came for) their likes (of old), so let them not ask Me to hasten on! "
"Woe, then, to the Unbelievers, on account of that Day of theirs which they have been promised!"So God does know that there will be disbelievers. Hence their account of deeds on the promised day.
BTW the translations I have use the word "serve me" or "worship me", either way, the ultimate PURPOSE of mankinds creation is for them to obey / worship / serve God alone. And we will all do that whether we do it willingly or unwillingly (more on this further).
Of course mankind will surrender themselves to God whether willingly (in this lifetime) or unwillingly (on the day of judgement). You say they cannot seek another faith on their own (God is the one that does it), however in your own quoted verse God say that they can. Which is further emphasised by the verse preceding the one you quoted which says
"If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors."They are obviously transgressors because they transgress Gods limits and his commands in this life. No free will, no transgression.
Yes man will submit to God either willingly (by accepting his message in Islam) or unwillingly when hes brought to his knees and shown the truth on the day of judgement.
The verse before this says
"Verily! This (Verses of the Quran) is an admonition, so whosoever wills, let him take a Path to his Lord (Allah)."So therefore man cannot simply "will" his way on to the right path, because God is indeed the all-seeing and knows what that man does or has done. So the straight path is not just about a mans will but also about his actions in life.
And the previous verse says
"And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful."
I think that is self explanatory.
We can go on with the verses you quoted but I think you get my point of view on this.
I think generally people misunderstand what I am saying. Furthermore, it does not really matter at all what the Quran seems to say at any point but rather if one says God does not determine and people have choice which can go this way or that way they are saying it is left up to chance as the determiner and God waits and relies on chance to determine. This is why it does not matter if the Quran even were to say God has partners or looks to another determining power which is not controlled entirely by Allah it is purely illogical blasphemy. Thus you should realize the implications. Following the Quran first is not the way to understand it correctly. You have to understand and be a believer before it will say the right things to you. The same stuff can confuse and mislead people into shirk if they do not understand the implications of what they are saying.
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Yes, the vousch or that. The Qur'an has little hooks on which people who are no interested in truth but rather on having an excuse to have the cake an eat if can get held up. If you wants excuses, the Qur'an gives such things as you could use as an excuse, which are very different from real foundations. The Qur'an does that, even seeming contradictions that are not such but that if you want to find fault will give you your excuse to find fault. The Qur'an does that, and many people get hung on that. But it is not the Qur'an, but the lack o honesty of the reader what makes them fall for obvious errors. They can blame the Qur'an of course, but so what? They an cheat themselves at leisure, but that is as much as they can cheat.
Salaam
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Yes, the vousch or that. The Qur'an has little hooks on which people who are no interested in truth but rather on having an excuse to have the cake an eat if can get held up. If you wants excuses, the Qur'an gives such things as you could use as an excuse, which are very different from real foundations. The Qur'an does that, even seeming contradictions that are not such but that if you want to find fault will give you your excuse to find fault. The Qur'an does that, and many people get hung on that. But it is not the Qur'an, but the lack o honesty of the reader what makes them fall for obvious errors. They can blame the Qur'an of course, but so what? They an cheat themselves at leisure, but that is as much as they can cheat.
Salaam
Honestly, your spree is an amazing miracle at work. Right on! MULTI KILL!
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I think generally people misunderstand what I am saying. Furthermore, it does not really matter at all what the Quran seems to say at any point but rather if one says God does not determine and people have choice which can go this way or that way they are saying it is left up to chance as the determiner and God waits and relies on chance to determine. This is why it does not matter if the Quran even were to say God has partners or looks to another determining power which is not controlled entirely by Allah it is purely illogical blasphemy. Thus you should realize the implications. Following the Quran first is not the way to understand it correctly. You have to understand and be a believer before it will say the right things to you. The same stuff can confuse and mislead people into shirk if they do not understand the implications of what they are saying.
"I think generally people misunderstand what I am saying."
I know that I must be misunderstanding you and that is why I replied with my understanding. But you have not given me any counter argument to my post.
"it does not really matter at all what the Quran seems to say at any point but rather if one says God does not determine and people have choice which can go this way or that way they are saying it is left up to chance as the determiner and God waits and relies on chance to determine."
If you read my reply again ... I say that God does not rely on chance to make the next move. His moves are pre-determined (or determined whenever he/she likes them to be determined). He only gives man a choice (s) in life when confronted with various decisions. Take the path designated in the Quran or take the other path and take my chances with there being no deity. What that decision ultimately leads towards is only determined by God and not by man. Thus a man cannot make himself king / president / pauper based on his decisions alone.
"This is why it does not matter if the Quran even were to say God has partners or looks to another determining power which is not controlled entirely by Allah it is purely illogical blasphemy. "
I know why it is illogical in my view that there cannot be multiple Gods. What is your logic for it?
"You have to understand and be a believer before it will say the right things to you. "
Then will you accept that the act of believing or not believing is actually within our control?
"The same stuff can confuse and mislead people into shirk if they do not understand the implications of what they are saying."
The only way a man can be mislead is if he has some form of free will. Otherwise, "mislead" is not the correct word to use here.
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It is unfortunate that a good fighter like you would have this stain remaining but maybe it will be cleansed soon. Thank you for bringing up the points. Mislead is just the limitations of language, and yes "misleading" is a form of experience, people can see it, it is when one says to another something which is wrong and then it appears based on that they go down the wrong path, if such occurs the entire incident was Allah's doing.
You may want to read my battle with drfazl, since it goes through it multiple times
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604771.msg373332#msg373332
Saying "God does not rely on chance" does not mean anything if the implications of what is being said is "God relies on chance". If anyone says "it can go this way or that way, people have a choice of two possibilities and what they choose is not determined by God" then they are saying "since it can go this way or that way, it is left to chance", it has nothing to do with "pre-determined coordinates for each path and limited choice", it is simply the implications of what is being said. This somehow is very difficult for people to comprehend, because they genuinely say "God does not rely on chance" and follow it up with statements which translate to God relying on chance as the determiner. I know it is a hard thing to swallow or realize. For me, it is no problem to swallow or realize that God is the source of evil and everything absolutely whatever at all. The Qur'an is also quite explicit about it repeatedly, it is only the sense of piety in people perhaps that makes them go down the path of shirk to "spare God" what appears indecent to say, that God is the Supreme Evil, as its creator and dispenser, everything else is under the driving charge of God.
No, the "only way" is not "free will" because there can be "A man goes up to a woman and says to her there is a bridge on 5th street, and she experiences belief of this and goes to 5th street and finds no bridge, realizing she was misled" and all that written by and created by God. That is an "experience" of information, it has nothing to do with free will at all. On the immediate level I am not denying the appearance of choices, but the appearance of choices and what you do actually choose and how you choose it and every sequence of thoughts and every decision you make is all Allah doing it truly, you are nothing really in the story, just whatever Allah wills will be demonstrated and you will be made to know what Allah has created of you.
"Never any choice had they".
So don't be in love with the Satanic Western fallacies of "omnibenevolence" which leads to absolutely twisted thinking and justifications, or their other invention of "Free Will".
That is not to say that in your life you won't be faced with choices, and whatever you end up choosing it is actually Allah choosing for you, and that does not mean it is necessarily good for you either, Allah may intend you harm.
So nothing at all changes in your experience, it is just you acknowledge it is God's will, all things, everything is God's will, not "some things" or "passive will" or anything like that. or "I make the choice, I determine which pre-determined path" or any variety.
Cleanse the shirk, become like me, and you'll prosper, simple as that. You can choose to do so in the immediate level, in truth, you'll never be able to do it except only if God makes you do it.
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"""Allah may intend you harm."""
do not agree with this statement,
Allah never intend us any harm. whatever God does is Good, no evil, no harm, no bad, even a volcano erupts under our feet, its goodness from God.
There is only one act which is always created or come from Allah and thats always Good,
but it can be evil, good and less good as perceived by many of us.If we believe we are closer to God, we act as per his guidance, our perception we will understand the Goodness and feel that,
if not we can only feel the lack of God and Goodness surrounding him. -
"""Allah may intend you harm."""
do not agree with this statement,
Allah never intend us any harm. whatever God does is Good, no evil, no harm, no bad, even a volcano erupts under our feet, its goodness from God.
I agree with you in this, very nice statements.
". . . Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful."
(Qur'an, 56) -
I agree with you in this, very nice statements.
". . . Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful."
(Qur'an, 56)"intends to purify you" not EVERYONE. It is speaking to the believers.
You deny Allah intends harm? What is hell then? It is by definition "harm" which Allah intends, or did someone else intend it?
Careful with your blasphemies, O worshipers of Wadd.
God definitely intends harm on some and is the Lord and Master of all Harm, its sole dispenser.
If you divert even a metaphorical micrometer from what I am saying you are making a serious error.
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Say Who is he who can preserve you from Allah if He intendeth harm for you, or intendeth mercy for you. They will not find that they have any friend or helper other than Allah.10107
And if Allah should afflict you with harm, then there is none to remove it but He; and if He intends good to you there is none to repel His grace; He brings it to whom He pleases of His servants; and He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.7210
And that we do not know whether some evil has been intended (by our restriction) in respect of those people who are in the earth, or their Lord intends some good for them.5118
If thou cause them to suffer - verily, they are Thy servants; and if Thou forgive them - verily, Thou alone art almighty, truly wise!"Do you think that if ALLAH INTENDED something, that Allah also FAILS at it, because the people OVERPOWER ALLAH? Allah DOES NOT FAIL in what ALLAH INTENDS.
When you say "Allah intends no harm" and you see harm, and you see evildoers brought to harm, is it that ALLAH IS FAILING? ITS ALL SLIPPED OUT OF CONTROL? THERE IS SOME OTHER POWER?
If Allah INTENDS to guide everyone, do you think there would be ANY MISGUIDED?
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And if We had pleased We would certainly have given to every soul its guidance, but the word from Me was just I will certainly fill hell with the jinn and men together.Whatever Allah wills is accomplished.
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No evil befalls on the earth nor in your own souls, but it is in a book before We bring it into existence; surely that is easy to AllahAllah is not BOUND to what he creates, he can do whatever he wants.
He freely creates and chooses whatever he wills. He can bring any to harm, he can destroy Jesus, he can do whatever at all. He can define a word, like Justice, then change the definition, it is all his creation.
You are at the mercy of Allah entirely, Allah is free from all requirements and needs.
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To Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth. Verily we have directed the People of the Book before you, and you (o Muslims) to fear Allah. But if ye deny Him, lo! unto Allah belong all things in the heavens and on earth, and Allah is free of all wants, worthy of all praise.Divert from it, and you are in the wrong. I am bringing you careful thinking and corrections. Take the ignorant as your friends and they will misguide you (such as A.W.)
If ANYONE diverts from what I am saying, they are in the wrong according to the Qur'an and according to common sense, logic, the scriptures of old, history, everything, and Reality itself which clearly contains what can be called "harm" "suffering" and did not NEED to exist because Allah has no needs, but Allah freely created it and creates what Allah wills and can intend anything AND DOES NOT FAIL IN WHAT IS INTENDED. It is never that "Allah wills you all to be guided" and Allah's will fails and there are those who are not guided because of something overpowering the will of Allah. ALLAH IS the WILL of the WORLDS. THERE IS NO OTHER WILL, NO POWER BUT ALLAH.
Allah does NOT FAIL.
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We did not create them save with a purpose, yet most people have no knowledge of this.Do you think it is that you are not achieving your purpose no matter what? That Allah's creation fails? No, you are doing EXACTLY what Allah wants you to do, even if it is that you are a Pharoah, or was Pharoah a co-writer of the Qur'an and that story? He was an example of a certain creation "arrogant one" perhaps, was that a failure of Allah's intention? No, Allah creates what Allah wills.
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And thy Lord creates whatever He wills and chooses. Not for them had there been a choice. Glory be to God and exalted is He above partners they ascribe!2531
For so it is that against every prophet We have set up enemies from among those who are lost in sin yet none can guide and give succour as thy Sustainer does!Allah is doing it all, will you keep denying it? Will you die in a state of shirk? Taking ignorant people as your accomplices and allies because their words sound sweet to you "Allah is only love, Allah never harms", these are known as "false hopes" they are lies.
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AND THUS it is that against every prophet We have set up as enemies the evil forces from among humans as well as from among invisible beings that whisper unto one another glittering half-truths meant to delude the mind But they could not do this unless thy Sustainer had so willed stand, therefore, aloof from them and from all their false imagery!ARE YOU GETTING IT YET! ARE YOU GETTING IT YET!? I'M TRYING TO HELP YOU! ARE YOU PEOPLE BLIND, DEAF, AND DUMB?!
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Peace,
We have free will within the parameters (limits, rules) set by God.
This is an important criteria of what are our limits and responsibilities
to God and his creation. We have the ability to choose what actions
we will take. Some actions are easy and some are more difficult and
require sacrifice and patience. But in the end God holds us responsible
for the decisions we make. In other words God makes the rules but
we decide how to live within those rules"When they commit some abominable act, they say 'We found
our fore fathers doing this, and God has commanded us to do it.' Tell them,
O Prophet, 'God never commands men to commit foul deeds, but you
attribute to God every sinful and erroneous act you commit in your ignorance.God bless
peace
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I agree
We have free will within the parameters set by God. This is an important
criteria of what are our limits and responsibilities to God and his creation.
We have the ability to choose what actions we will take. Some actions
are easy and some are more difficult and require sacrifice and patience.
But in the end God holds us responsible for the decisions we make.
In other words God makes the rules but man decides how to live within those rules"When they commit some abominable act, they say 'We found
our fore fathers doing this, and God has commanded us to do it.' Tell them,
O Prophet, 'God never commands men to commit foul deeds, but you
attribute to God every sinful and erroneous act you commit in your ignorance.God bless
peace
Allah has not officially sent a scripture commanding in it that people do the lewdness and evil that they do.
That does not mean Allah did not create those things. Allah creates and dispenses whatever exists. It isn't all necessarily "good" or "good for people".
"They would not have done it had Allah not willed", Allah intends and wills filth on some creatures and creates those experiences, Allah can freely will whatever Allah wants to will absolutely and does not fail in it, nor is anything left to "Chance" and then God looks to "Chance" for answers saying "What will Chance do next, I don't know, I've left it to another partner in power, so when people say it can go this way or that way, it means Chance determines and not Allah who has left it up to Chance".
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Allah has not officially sent a scripture commanding in it that people do the lewdness and evil that they do.
That does not mean Allah did not create those things. Allah creates and dispenses whatever exists. It isn't all necessarily "good" or "good for people".
"They would not have done it had Allah not willed", Allah intends and wills filth on some creatures and creates those experiences, Allah can freely will whatever Allah wants to will absolutely and does not fail in it, nor is anything left to "Chance" and then God looks to "Chance" for answers saying "What will Chance do next, I don't know, I've left it to another partner in power, so when people say it can go this way or that way, it means Chance determines and not Allah who has left it up to Chance".
Once again I agree that God creates everything however, people who look
for excuses for themselves have claimed that whatever sinful acts they commit
are willed and desired by God. Thus the Qur?an says"When they commit some abominable act, they say 'We found our fore fathers
doing this, and God has commanded us to do it.' Tell them, O Prophet, 'God
never commands men to commit foul deeds, but you attribute to God every
sinful and erroneous act you commit in your ignorance.'(72 -
Once again I agree that God creates everything however, people who look
for excuses for themselves have claimed that whatever sinful acts they commit
are willed and desired by God. Thus the Qur?an says"When they commit some abominable act, they say 'We found our fore fathers
doing this, and God has commanded us to do it.' Tell them, O Prophet, 'God
never commands men to commit foul deeds, but you attribute to God every
sinful and erroneous act you commit in your ignorance.'(72Yeah, and it is false that God instructed them to do that or sent them commandments to do that, they are liars, yet Allah created what they do in every detail and that they do it, but it is no excuse, as it is not in their favor either. Its a small technical detail but it is important because of the implications of saying otherwise.
They do only actually do the will of Allah, like when they bury the female child or go on a killing spree, this is not something they can just do and is bypassing the will of Allah somehow, but it is Allah they are bound to follow even if he intends destruction for them with their own hands Allah is the one who aims the gun and fires it at the child's head and decides where the bullet penetrates, what region of the eyeball it shatters as it enters the brain, and if it "just misses" some part that they survive or "just hits" some part that they die, this is Allah doing it all, and it doesn't make the act right, nor did Allah make a scripture that says "shoot the children in the head" but it was indeed the will of Allah, as are all things, whatsoever is created, the experience of it, down to our thoughts, and none of it is left up to "chance", but Allah is willing every detail deliberately and it can not be otherwise.
So Allah willed the individual to have such thoughts, willed the individual to pick up the gun and was the power by which he picked up the gun, willed the individual and created the information the individual sees with their own eyes of them holding the gun, willed it to be aimed at a child, willed it to be fired at the child, and then may yet will that child murderer to experience hell, creating that experience of "seeing hell with their own eyes" and everything else in existence.
All is from God, not "some". Allah created everything, not some things. There is no such thing as a person doing anything at all that Allah wills, Allah has everyone bound as slaves, everything surrenders to Allah willingly or unwillingly, knowingly or unknowingly, and if Allah intends evil in a person or good, that is from Allah alone, they can not even will it except as Allah wills them to will it, they can not do any harm or good except what Allah MAKES them do, they have no power to do anything on their own, nor was it really any choice of theirs to create "I murdered a child", that was a creation of Allah, they never have any choice, but it will appear to them "I could have not done it" and that too is a creation of Allah, that idea, but the truth is no one can do OTHERWISE except what Allah wills.
That does not mean Allah told them to do it in a scripture or that whatever Allah creates is necessarily good or good for them, Allah creates whatever Allah wills, and it is not THEM driving Allah, but Allah driving them, except they do not perceive it always.
On the immediate level though, we urge justice, and we say to the people "choose good", but the wiser knows that "they can never do it except only if Allah makes them do it, good or evil", and we pray not to be the ones Allah seeks to destroy and harm in this life or the next.
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Peace FreedomStands hmm great subject, Indeed all is from God.
You seem to lean towards no free will. I think it comes down to
understanding words, (not like a word means this or that, like in this
forum) but "act" versus "volition" and the time factor.
An example would be God creates fire (which has its attributes),
but we choose what to do with it, we can do a good thing or we can do a bad
thing with it. Now when we add the time factor, since God is not bound by
time, and because we live in a linear time line, we get a new experience for
us but something that is already known by God.(763)
We have shown man the path of truth and the path of falsehood; he may choose
either the path of guidance and offer the thanks, or choose the path of ingratitude."In just the same way that God has willed a reward for good acts, so, too, He has willed
punishment for sin and corruption, but in both cases, willing the result is different from
willing the act that leads to the result.From Islam.org Man's being and the natural effects of his acts are, indeed, subject to God's will,
but his volitional acts arise from his own will.Full Definition of VOLITION
1 an act of making a choice or decision; also a choice or decision made
2 the power of choosing or determining will
Now when we add parameters, limits, principles and the characteristic of creation
we get a cross spectrum of extremes that are the limits of existence.Some examples. hot and cold, positive negative, high low, good evil, each
having its reward or punishment which God is the creator, what we chose
within these limits is called free will, despite the fact the God is not bound
by time and knows what we will do in the future.God bless you
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Peace FreedomStands hmm great subject, Indeed all is from God.
You seem to lean towards no free will. I think it comes down to
understanding words, (not like a word means this or that, like in this
forum) but "act" versus "volition" and the time factor.
An example would be God creates fire (which has its attributes),
but we choose what to do with it, we can do a good thing or we can do a bad
thing with it. Now when we add the time factor, since God is not bound by
time, and because we live in a linear time line, we get a new experience for
us but something that is already known by God.(763)
We have shown man the path of truth and the path of falsehood; he may choose
either the path of guidance and offer the thanks, or choose the path of ingratitude."In just the same way that God has willed a reward for good acts, so, too, He has willed
punishment for sin and corruption, but in both cases, willing the result is different from
willing the act that leads to the result.From Islam.org Man's being and the natural effects of his acts are, indeed, subject to God's will,
but his volitional acts arise from his own will.Full Definition of VOLITION
1 an act of making a choice or decision; also a choice or decision made
2 the power of choosing or determining will
Now when we add parameters, limits, principles and the characteristic of creation
we get a cross spectrum of extremes that are the limits of existence.Some examples. hot and cold, positive negative, high low, good evil, each
having its reward or punishment which God is the creator, what we chose
within these limits is called free will, despite the fact the God is not bound
by time and knows what we will do in the future.God bless you
You will hopefully agree, that the information or "pixels" received in your eyes for example are a unique creation, or it can be said "your experience" is a creation of Allah. It is not that "some things are created by Allah" but even "the experience" of those things, and what is done with them is a creation of Allah.
This is not an easy thing for many people to accept.
They also find it difficult to understanding the implications of saying otherwise.
If one says "it can go this way or that way" they are really saying "it is left to (the power of) Chance" and that "God looks to Chance to decide".
This isn't really grasping the end levels of the logic regarding the Ultimate and is a poor estimation of what God really is. If God looks to Chance, then Chance is the Ultimate, there is always the Ultimate, it is the Ultimate I worship, not anything lesser.
The Qur'an also says things that seem to imply whatever a person wills is actually Allah creating that too, not creating "Chance that Chance determines" but creating the experience of them desiring or wishing for something, these are all creations. "Created All things" doesn't just mean "created the origins or originals or the base materials" but everything, from the thoughts and actions, and not just "the possibilities" but "the choosing of them" as well.
That is on the Ultimate level. On the immediate level, we of course appear to make choices and follow deliberation and whatever, and should do good, but it is the peace of surrender to know that Ultimately, nobody can save themselves really, nor does anyone Cause Allah to do or create anything or Drive Allah the Undriven Driver and Uncaused Cause free from Causation who causes everything.
Then if one talks of the real world as it appears, one also sees there are a chain of events that mean "if this didn't happen then this wouldn't happen, but it did happen, so then this happened" down to the most precise details, like wiggling your toe causing a delay of one second, which delays you from being at the site of an accident, this is Allah creating all experiences, and if one takes a purely atheistic scientific materialistic model there were factors that drove everything down to the most specific detail, whereas one would in a religious model be saying "I chose this based on nothing at all really and was not driven by a series of specific things which influenced me, nor by Allah was it determined, but by Chance, and because I chose this and could've chosen otherwise, I am responsible for Allah My Tool to have created this certain experience of information which my senses receive, this was my doing".
It is wrong. Allah creates and chooses whatever Allah wills, not just the origins, but every detail whatsoever, and nothing is left to any other power. Justice, Trial, whatever else are all God's creations and every detail of them too.
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Peace FreedomStands, so according to you there is no free will?
There is no doubt you experience obvious choices set before you, you experience deliberation, you experience the choosing of one over another, and all that.
Those are all experiences of information, all created by Allah as nothing is not created by Allah.
This might be too long for you, but both of these cover it, and there are nuances to what I am saying which make it necessary and careful.
If it is truly not God determining, then it is "Chance" determining, but there is always the Ultimate determiner. So if it is not for people "God" and instead "Chance" as in "it could've been otherwise, it could've truly gone any way, and Chance determined, and God looked to Chance to determine since it could have gone this way or that way and God didn't determine it" then Chance is the Ultimate in that system, and Chance would be thus what I worship (The Ultimate determining factor by whatever name it is called, not anything less). Thus God would be driven by "Chance" since the humans decide this or that, and God runs after them creating what they decide, and Chance determines, and so God is driven by Chance essentially and waiting on Chance.
In any case though, if you could take the time to read these two things thoroughly, you'll see perhaps what I am saying, but most don't care for or understand it at all and think that they have gone beyond this with their notions
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604771.msg373332#msg373332
and this older one
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607626.0