Baccata and Haj
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Some things metaphorical, some things literal, how do you distinguish it?
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Some things metaphorical, some things literal, how do you distinguish it?
The argument of embarrassment. When a story embarrasses the cultural/religious group that is author to the story this adds weight to it's historical weight. Eg No sunni muslim would be fabricating a lie in the hadith that embarrasses or contradicts their own doctrines or Prophet.
In the story of Abraham there is also an argument of embarrassment present. The forefather of the Jewish faith about to slaughter his own son for his God? If this version is a fabrication then it would make no sense no Jewish person would fabricate such a concept because it would embarrass their own culture and religion.
Of course none of such arguments of embarrassment mean anything by themselves. If they match with archaeological findings one could say there has to be at least some truth to it.
For instance there is a ancient archaeologica
Peace
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Can you delineate in bullet points when you have the time the facts you are presenting?
I am looking for the location of Muhammed, etc. I don't care about proof yet. I am just wanting like
Muhammed was here, this is what happened, etc etc this is where he dealt with the jews, this is where he was, this is where they came from.
Then if you want me to, I can try to find issues with it, but if you want me to just leave it at that, that is fine too, I can just say "ok thank you, that is what I wanted to know".
What I really, really, want to know, is why are we abandoning some Jewish things and not others?
How do we know which is which? Why don't we just be fully Jewish and try to imitate the Judaism reconstructed from around that time? There are pretty good records of it so it isn't entirely impossible maybe to accomplish that.
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The argument of embarrassment. When a story embarrasses the cultural/religious group that is author to the story this adds weight to it's historical weight. Eg No sunni muslim would be fabricating a lie in the hadith that embarrasses or contradicts their own doctrines or Prophet.
In the story of Abraham there is also an argument of embarrassment present. The forefather of the Jewish faith about to slaughter his own son for his God? If this version is a fabrication then it would make no sense no Jewish person would fabricate such a concept because it would embarrass their own culture and religion.
Of course none of such arguments of embarrassment mean anything by themselves. If they match with archaeological findings one could say there has to be at least some truth to it.
For instance there is a ancient archaeologica
Peace
I don't know I find that argument really risky. What if it was the enemies of those good people who wrote or inspired such stories?
I don't know, it seems a bit weird to me. What do we take of the good things said?
Plus, it was Persians writing about him.
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Visit masjid al haram in Mecca being a christian and trust me you will get arrested. I will keep rebelling against such a qibla. Never will I accept it. It is not a safe place for pilgrims whatsoever.
Ironically if a Jew or a Christian tries to pray inside Temple Mount (aka Masjid al-Aksa), they too get arrested. Even the access of so called "Muslims" to this sight is also significantly restricted. If "universal access" has to be a criteria for the "Qibla", Jerrusalem does not stand up to that test either.
For me Qibla is nothing more than a reference point towards which I turn to express my followership of a specific messenger who taught the same universal faith through newly standardized practices. For me the Qibla does not need to be a magical place. There are numerous verses in Qur'an which confirm that different communities follow different practices and rituals and in Qur'an I put my trust. For you is your Qibla, for me is mine.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
Ironically if a Jew or a Christian tries to pray inside Temple Mount (aka Masjid al-Aksa), they too get arrested. Even the access of so called "Muslims" to this sight is also significantly restricted. If "universal access" has to be a criteria for the "Qibla", Jerrusalem does not stand up to that test either.
For me Qibla is nothing more than a reference point towards which I turn to express my followership of a specific messenger who taught the same universal faith through newly standardized practices. For me the Qibla does not need to be a magical place. There are numerous verses in Qur'an which confirm that different communities follow different practices and rituals and in Qur'an I put my trust. For you is your Qibla, for me is mine.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
ArmanDo you do the Mecca Qibla? Where are you located currently?
Also, anyway, the main point being made in this thread I think by runninglikezebras is the following, which I will put into my own words
The Jewish traditions, some of them, such as the turning towards Jerusalem, were never supposed to be turned against, and the later Arab conquerors or some Kings or Persians maybe or some bad group decided later on to make this Islam distinct from basically Jewish stuff like the pilgrimage to Jerusalem and whatever.
That seems to be basically the point, and sure, that totally may have happened, we weren't there so I have no idea if it did really happen or not, but it is possible for sure that such a thing happened.
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Do you do the Mecca Qibla? Where are you located currently?
I turn to Al Masjid-al-Haram in Mecca during my salaat ritual - as my Qibla.
Also, anyway, the main point being made in this thread I think by runninglikezebras is the following, which I will put into my own words
The Jewish traditions, some of them, such as the turning towards Jerusalem, were never supposed to be turned against, and the later Arab conquerors or some Kings or Persians maybe or some bad group decided later on to make this Islam distinct from basically Jewish stuff like the pilgrimage to Jerusalem and whatever.
That seems to be basically the point, and sure, that totally may have happened, we weren't there so I have no idea if it did really happen or not, but it is possible for sure that such a thing happened.
No I find the above proposition unacceptable. Per my understanding there is a huge difference between "not accepting Hadith as a religious authority" vs. declining the history of Islam altogether. It is very well possible that someone obtains a misinformation about the age of Ayesha at the time of her marriage or a misquote from the prophet that angels do not enter the room where there is a dog, or introducing a new "devil stoning" ritual during hujj pilgimage - BUT it is absolutely impossible to brainwash an entire community of believers (who already numbered in 1000+ at the time of the Prophet) to teach them a totally new history, or new daily rituals (5 time salaat facing Kabaa at Mecca), or changing the definition of "month of Ramadan" etc. So, I am not in doubt about the basic historical events during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - his birth in Mecca in the seventh century, his family identity, his obtaining of Prophethood at middle age, hizrat, change of kibla, fight of Badar and Uhud, victory of Mecca and so on. Furthermore history tells us that right after the death of Prophet Muhammad his community got bitterly divided over who should be the next ?Khalifa?. This gave rise to different political groups and sub-groups. It would have been absolutely impossible to bring all these differing groups to an agreement over the Qibla had it not been a real legacy of the Prophet himself.
BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, runninglikezebras arguments are not based on historical observation, rather his arguments are based on a belief that ?Qibla? is so fundamental to our deen that Allah could have given only one Qibla for mankind. Rather I find this belief absolutely problematic. To Allah belongs the East and the West - He guides to the straight route whomever He wills. I would never imply restriction upon Allah to have been constrained by His commitment to an individual Prophet to assign a single point as Qibla for entire mankind. We need to have the ability to distinguish between items which are core to piety (items listed in 2177 for example) vs. rituals, symbols, dress codes and dietary practices which are only prescribed means to an end. Allah sent different messengers to different communities with the same fundamental message to test which one of us can be the best in our actions - this has been confirmed (2213) and reconfirmed (54 in Qur'an. The idea that there has always been only one community with only one hardcoded set of practices and rituals is against the core theme of the Qur'an. I do not care if one follows the Mecca or the Jerusalem, or the Rome or the Vrindavan as his Qibla ? but it is the over-ritualization, which turn people into blind sects, that I voice-out against.
May Allah guide us all to the straight route.
Regards,
Arman -
. The Search for Muhammad has Ended (Read 29363 times)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603126.0Looks like even back then there were people saying what runninglikezebras is saying here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603126.msg287389#msg287389
So what was the conclusion of the Pazuzu article? Was Muhammed in Mecca and Medina like the mainstream academics say?
I saved the picture of the map, that was pretty cool!
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Peace runninglikezebras,
Please re read my posts AND ONE OF YOUR OWN POST because what you are asking has already been referenced in them. If you are not even reading my posts and YOUR OWN QUOTED VERSE closely then further discussion is futile (
Your post still doesn't explain how you can face a physical location from more than a few miles away due to curvature of the Earth. It is a scientific impossibility. You will be facing a portion of the sky tangential to the curvature of Earth and not the physical location. This is an empirically verifiable fact. You can physically face something only when the physical location is in the straight line of sight and not wind directions! When you are more than a few miles away from a physical location the straight line of sight is now a portion of the sky rather than the physical location. Depending on your location on Earth that direction could be off by 90 DEGREES and THOUSANDS OF MILES from the physical location. So now you are facing the sky in a direction that is not the direction of the physical location thereby violating your physical qibla direction!
Your post still doesn't explain how you will face a physical location from far away galaxies on the outer edge of the universe from where Earth is not even visible due to light from Earth still not having reached it. You should be able to set yourself towards qibla WHEREVER YOU MAY BE which includes anywhere in the universe.
You still haven't provided any quranic evidence that qibla and al-masjid al-haram are associated with salat. Salat is nowhere in the context of the qibla and al-masjid al-haram verses. Face a physical direction DOING WHAT?
You still haven't provided any quranic evidence to support your conjecture that AL-MASJID AL-HARAM is the same as AL-BAYT AL-HARAM!
You still haven't provided any quranic evidence that MASJID can be a BAYT! A single verse will suffice. None of what you referenced shows that MASJID can be a BAYT in quranic terminology.
Just because you can enter something doesn't mean it is a physical house according to al-quran itself. According to al-quran, people can enter DEEN, so does that make DEEN a physical house? According to al-quran people can visit SABEEL ALLAH and be devoted in it, so does that make SABEEL ALLAH a physical super highway or a physical house?
SABEEL ALLAH AND AL-MASJID AL-HARAM are mentioned right next to each other so if being able to visit them makes almasjid alharam a physical house then sabeel allah also has to be a physical house or a physical highway. On the other hand if sabeel allah is a mental/metaphorical path then almasjid alharam also has to be mental/metaphorical in that verse. So either both are physical or both are mental and because sabeel allah cannot be physical, both have to be mental concepts.
Al-quran clearly defines AL-MASJID AL-HARAM as THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD. A physical location CANNOT BE THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD. If it was then al-quran would have clearly stated where exactly the physical location is instead of keeping everyone in the dark about such an important matter.
Why would al-quran tell you that WHEREVER YOU TURN YOU WILL FIND THE PRESENCE OF ALLAH, and PIETY IS NOT TO TURN YOUR FACES TOWARDS EAST OR WEST, and then tell you to face a particular physical direction?
Since you are not even reading my posts completely or ignoring what I already mentioned, AND YOU ARE NOT EVEN READING YOUR OWN QUOTED VERSE CAREFULLY which mentions what you are asking, AND YOU ARE NOT answering the questions posted by me and providing the quranic evidence being requested from you about certain things then it is futile to carry any further discussion with you.
Instead you have resorted to ad hominem which I have ignored so far.
You can continue to face a physical direction like many others and continue to believe al-masjid al-haram is a bayt/physical house associated with Abraham but don't claim that it is based on al-quran.
Peace.
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Peace everyone,
WHAT IS "THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD" ACCORDING TO AL-QURAN?
4170 O people, a messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; that is better for you. And if you reject, then to God is what is in the heavens and the earth. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Did the messenger come with a physical house/location or did the messenger come with the message?
6114 "Shall I seek other than allah as a judge when he has sent down to you the book fully detailed?" Those to whom we have given the book know it is sent down from your lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
131 ALMR, these are the signs of the book. And what has been sent down to you from your lord is the truth; but most of the people do not believe.
Was a physical house/location sent down from your lord?
2852 Those to whom we had given the book before this, they will believe in it.
2853 And if it is recited to them, they say "We believe in it. It is the truth from our lord. Indeed, we had submitted before it."Clearly THE BOOK = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD;
Combine this with AL-MASJID AL-HARAM = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD,2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards al-masjid al-haram; it is the truth from your Lord; and allah is not unaware of what you do.
and suddenly it is crystal clear what qibla/focal point is. YOU CAN SET YOURSELF TOWARDS OR FACE THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD/"THE BOOK"/"THE MESSAGE" WHEREVER YOU MAY BE.
How much clearer can al-quran be?
2150 And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable masjid. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not be concerned by them, but be concerned by me; so that I may complete my blessings upon you and that you may be guided.
Peace
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Peace everyone,
WHAT IS "THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD" ACCORDING TO AL-QURAN?
4170 O people, a messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; that is better for you. And if you reject, then to God is what is in the heavens and the earth. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Did the messenger come with a physical house/location or did the messenger come with the message?
6114 "Shall I seek other than allah as a judge when he has sent down to you the book fully detailed?" Those to whom we have given the book know it is sent down from your lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
131 ALMR, these are the signs of the book. And what has been sent down to you from your lord is the truth; but most of the people do not believe.
Was a physical house/location sent down from your lord?
2852 Those to whom we had given the book before this, they will believe in it.
2853 And if it is recited to them, they say "We believe in it. It is the truth from our lord. Indeed, we had submitted before it."Clearly THE BOOK = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD;
Combine this with AL-MASJID AL-HARAM = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD,2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards al-masjid al-haram; it is the truth from your Lord; and allah is not unaware of what you do.
and suddenly it is crystal clear what qibla/focal point is. YOU CAN SET YOURSELF TOWARDS OR FACE THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD/"THE BOOK"/"THE MESSAGE" WHEREVER YOU MAY BE.
How much clearer can al-quran be?
2150 And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable masjid. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not be concerned by them, but be concerned by me; so that I may complete my blessings upon you and that you may be guided.
Peace
Salam truthseeker11
We are having a discussion in my family and friends about salat and other rituals. Qibla is the topic for tomorrow's session. Thank you very much for your post. I never thought about "the truth" the way you have explained it.
May God show us the straight path.
Regards -
Peace everyone,
WHAT IS "THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD" ACCORDING TO AL-QURAN?
4170 O people, a messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; that is better for you. And if you reject, then to God is what is in the heavens and the earth. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Did the messenger come with a physical house/location or did the messenger come with the message?
6114 "Shall I seek other than allah as a judge when he has sent down to you the book fully detailed?" Those to whom we have given the book know it is sent down from your lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
131 ALMR, these are the signs of the book. And what has been sent down to you from your lord is the truth; but most of the people do not believe.
Was a physical house/location sent down from your lord?
2852 Those to whom we had given the book before this, they will believe in it.
2853 And if it is recited to them, they say "We believe in it. It is the truth from our lord. Indeed, we had submitted before it."Clearly THE BOOK = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD;
Combine this with AL-MASJID AL-HARAM = THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD,2149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards al-masjid al-haram; it is the truth from your Lord; and allah is not unaware of what you do.
and suddenly it is crystal clear what qibla/focal point is. YOU CAN SET YOURSELF TOWARDS OR FACE THE TRUTH FROM YOUR LORD/"THE BOOK"/"THE MESSAGE" WHEREVER YOU MAY BE.
How much clearer can al-quran be?
2150 And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the inviolable masjid. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not be concerned by them, but be concerned by me; so that I may complete my blessings upon you and that you may be guided.
Peace
Looks like I at least try to have all those interpretations covered simultaneously, not missing out on one.
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Looks like even back then there were people saying what runninglikezebras is saying here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603126.msg287389#msg287389
So what was the conclusion of the Pazuzu article? Was Muhammed in Mecca and Medina like the mainstream academics say?
I saved the picture of the map, that was pretty cool!
Look , as you said I don't really care whether Muhammad was in Mars or Jupiter or even in Mecca and Medina like the mainstream academics say , because he is dead and we are not witness of him and moreover this information is not necessary for our salvation . But Pazzuzu's several posts including this one makes us think and understand religious history of Muslims , Christians and Jews and how they are fabricated including hadiths. Pazuzu's reasoning based on quranic Ayats , historians and archeological evidence. You should read them all to grasp it , if you want to better argue with people like runninglikezebra.
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Runninglikezebras is not arguing. I was merely expressing myself. I needed to express this or literally go mad. God is testing us all the time. God tested Abrahams loyalty when he asked him to slaughter his firstborn son. If that never happened there would be no Islam no Judaism no Christianity. We wouldn't be sitting here arguing about an insignificant test like the qibla. All I can say is this test of Abraham is and will always be significant to me. God promised a progeny to Abraham. Then God asks Abraham to slay his firstborn. Testing Abrahams loyalty to the One God to the maximum. Not only casting doubts about the ethical code of this One God. But also casting doubts about the entire progeny promised to him.
But I've withdrawn myself from this debate. I'm not trying to change the mainstream concept. I'm not trying to change anyone's conviction. And I'm not asking anyone to follow my understanding. My words are powerless. It's no factor in where your heart is considering its return to.
I expressed my opinion already about Pazuzu/Salibi's theory. One might take a look at the historical evidence for Lachish and ponder whether archaeology still allows displacing Israel to Yemen.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Lachish
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_LachishSome of the oldest inscriptions in paleo-hebrew were found at Lachish btw.
Peace
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Runninglikezebras is not arguing. I was merely expressing myself. I needed to express this or literally go mad. God is testing us all the time. God tested Abrahams loyalty when he asked him to slaughter his firstborn son. If that never happened there would be no Islam no Judaism no Christianity. We wouldn't be sitting here arguing about an insignificant test like the qibla.
But I've withdrawn myself from this debate. I'm not trying to change the mainstream concept. I'm not trying to change anyone's conviction. And I'm not asking anyone to follow my understanding. My words are powerless. It's no factor in where your heart is considering its return to.
I expressed my opinion already about Pazuzu/Salibi's theory. One might take a look at the historical evidence for Lachish and ponder whether archaeology still allows displacing Israel to Yemen.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Lachish
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_LachishSome of the oldest inscriptions in paleo-hebrew were found at Lachish btw.
Peace
Very cool stuff, even during any of the discussion, and thank you for expressing yourself!
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Would you go as far as Abraham if God asked you to slaughter your firstborn? There is something peculiar about this test of Abraham. The God personally testing Abraham. This is remarkable. There is no Shaytan or Iblis testing Abraham for the God. This makes it exceptional. The good reason for this testing and not leaving it to the "HR department" is because the entire progeny of messengers will spring forth from it.
Peace
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Very cool stuff, even during any of the discussion, and thank you for expressing yourself!
The stuff at Lachish is amazing. And proves the entire Yemen theory of Salibi is flawed. But look at this Assyrian ramp they built to siege the city with so soldiers could climb over the walls
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/LachishRamp053011.jpg/1920px-LachishRamp053011.jpg
Now look at the next picture, this is Sennacherib on his throne placed in front of the walls of Lachish giving the permission to his soldiers to take the town and slaughter everyone in it
https//i2.wp.com/www.lessing-photo.com/p3/080203/08020359.jpg
This next picture shows Sennacherib reviewing the captured Judaean prisoners and it's one of the few depictions of how they may have actually looked like from an external point of view.
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/The_fall_of_Lachish%2C_King_Sennacherib_reviews_Judaean_prisoners..JPG/1920px-The_fall_of_Lachish%2C_King_Sennacherib_reviews_Judaean_prisoners..JPG
The deportation of Judaeans
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Judaean_people_are_being_deported_into_exile_after_the_capture_of_Lachish..JPG/1920px-Judaean_people_are_being_deported_into_exile_after_the_capture_of_Lachish..JPG
You can still visit the site, it's entirely abandoned now. You can still walk on that Assyrian ramp and see the ruins of the commander's palace.
Lachish is connected to Jerusalem in the sense that it was a stronghold to protect the northern parts with among which Jerusalem. Lachish and Jerusalem are referred to together in biblical phrases and it's one of the best pieces of biblical archaeology matching the verses.
Peace
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Would you go as far as Abraham if God asked you to slaughter your firstborn? There is something peculiar about this test of Abraham. The God personally testing Abraham. This is remarkable. There is no Shaytan or Iblis testing Abraham for the God. This makes it exceptional. The good reason for this testing and not leaving it to the "HR department" is because the entire progeny of messengers will spring forth from it.
Peace
Good question.
In the Qur'anic version, it is a dream he has had, with no emphasis on it being a certain command to be carried out in a certain way, that Allah has specified, as compared to the Biblical version.
Even so, God can command anything.
Abraham had already been witness, according to the mainstream Qur'an, to having slaughtered birds and them being returned to life and to him even after their body parts had been scattered on a variety of mountains. He had seen many miraculous things, such as fire or heat having no effect on him in the incident of the oven. The warning and the destruction of the civilization of Lot. The sacrifice of his son literally would have meant little, as God had made evident that they can easily be returned to life or anything else.
To ask this of someone who has not seen evidence, would be even more harsh, and Allah can do that too. Us killing our kid is not even comparable to a person who has witnessed cut up body parts returned together and natural elements not having their natural effects, and attacks from outer space or the sky obliterating an entire community. In fact, it would be rather stupid to disobey such a power in anything and risk horrors or horrors upon their child for even more suffering.
Regardless, one might wonder if other versions might also have had good results, like reasoning why that is wrong or whatever else one might do.
It is important for everyone to know, if some command or voice comes to them to kill their children (as it has to many people), they are to disobey such things and explain why that is wrong.
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It is important for everyone to know, if some command or voice comes to them to kill their children (as it has to many people), they are to disobey such things and explain why that is wrong.
Agreed. Please don't kill your kids. To us (not being Abraham), killing your children is a form of fahisha. I relate that instruction in Quran back to this event in which the God stopped Abraham from executing the instruction he received in a dream. In and before Abrahams time child sacrifice was entirely not uncommon.
Peace