Is it zina?
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It's kinda difficult to decide. First, we need to define what is right, and what is wrong. Based by what? And what is the goal. Like the Thread Starter asked, his goal was to repopulate the earth, and based on, as usual, evolutions, it is acceptable. Our instinct was installed to preserve our existence, the human race.
But, based on cultural, which is vary, it is not acceptable. Im more interested on what is the side effect when you do boyfriend-girlfriend relationship. If we talked about our subjective experience, or talked about a few sample, we will not see the effect, what we need to see is what is the natural reaction when such a relationship is established. But yes, in the age of moses AFAIK, you just need to ask her father permission, give him something as an exchange, you're free to go, no paper, no certificate, no government permision, just go. But, if I said something like this to you, some people on some culture will insult us really bad. You have to own a car, a house, be bill gates, and optionally, super heroes ;DBased on my perspective, better dont.
Well i don't really see the difference between marriage and Regular relationship both financially provide for each other, usually couples meet each other's parents, and both swore an oath that they won't hook up with another person
Legal marriages sometimes from what i see are just the exact same thing, sometimes lasts pretty shortly rather than most Girlfriend/boyfriend relationships do
I don't think these types of couples deserves 100 lashes since they love each other and both of them mostly fulfill the quran's circumstances for marriage -
I was wondering if 1 female and 1 male got stuck on an island together with no hope of getting back to the city and they want to re-populate the island does it count that both of them are committing zina?They're both not legally married. Does loving each other counts as religiously married according to the quran?
It's not a joke it's a serious question
You can marry a woman without witnesses or anything. When a man and a woman are married, there are certain obligations for the man and the woman. The man has to take care of the woman and treat her well, he has to give her a dowry of some sort and maintain justice and treat her well, they have to both openly agree that they are married and what that means, the woman can not be forced.
In ancient times there was no real "legal marriage", that was your woman, or wife, when you had followed the proper procedure and basically took her as your own and treated her like a wife it was then illegal for her to go with anyone else or whatever, but later more measures were taken to make sure it was well known who was married to who, and even in ancient times there were often wedding feasts and parties but it seemed whoever a man took as their woman was their wife pretty much if they treated them in the right manner.
What is forbidden in the Qur'an or spoken against is injustice and the evil way that people live to this day, having sex with women and even impregnating them and not having obligation to them, not doing justice, ruining them for their future husband, not giving dowries or being loyal or doing right, just pushing for sex and throwing them away or pressuring them for more sex and not doing right. They are not behaving justly or like husbands.
The modern Muslim marriage is simply a version with witnesses, a dowry, and the two parties agreeing to be married, possibly some sort of contract as well is typically involved and documentation. The divorce is not asking for the dowry back, witnesses, after the prescribed periods of separation and potential reconciliation. The purpose of all this is justice and right action.
The sin involved with anything else, is the injustice, the levels on which it does or can potentially hurt people, disrupt their future, and other things like that, the anxiety and suffering involved with instability and the evilness of people who have no obligation yet take advantage of people.
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You can marry a woman without witnesses or anything. When a man and a woman are married, there are certain obligations for the man and the woman. The man has to take care of the woman and treat her well, he has to give her a dowry of some sort and maintain justice and treat her well, they have to both openly agree that they are married and what that means, the woman can not be forced.
In ancient times there was no real "legal marriage", that was your woman, or wife, when you had followed the proper procedure and basically took her as your own and treated her like a wife it was then illegal for her to go with anyone else or whatever, but later more measures were taken to make sure it was well known who was married to who, and even in ancient times there were often wedding feasts and parties but it seemed whoever a man took as their woman was their wife pretty much if they treated them in the right manner.
What is forbidden in the Qur'an or spoken against is injustice and the evil way that people live to this day, having sex with women and even impregnating them and not having obligation to them, not doing justice, ruining them for their future husband, not giving dowries or being loyal or doing right, just pushing for sex and throwing them away or pressuring them for more sex and not doing right. They are not behaving justly or like husbands.
The modern Muslim marriage is simply a version with witnesses, a dowry, and the two parties agreeing to be married, possibly some sort of contract as well is typically involved and documentation. The divorce is not asking for the dowry back, witnesses, after the prescribed periods of separation and potential reconciliation. The purpose of all this is justice and right action.
The sin involved with anything else, is the injustice, the levels on which it does or can potentially hurt people, disrupt their future, and other things like that, the anxiety and suffering involved with instability and the evilness of people who have no obligation yet take advantage of people.
The meaning "Dowry" in today's modern society is the price of the bride given to the parent of the girl, what does Dowry mean according to the quran, does Dowry according to the quran simply providing financially for her?
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The meaning "Dowry" in today's modern society is the price of the bride given to the parent of the girl, what does Dowry mean according to the quran, does Dowry according to the quran simply providing financially for her?
Pretty much yeah. It was typically a statement of proof to be able to financially provide for her, and she retains it even in case of divorce. It is still a "bride price" you basically are paying for her (not to her parents but to her), and she has to of course accept the price and that is the contract. She can't be forced. It almost sounds like modern prostitution but not a temporary contract, this is basically the marriage procedure so after the dowry is offered and accepted, then she has agreed to be married. It is almost similar to the "ring" tradition, except it appears the dowry should be something that she can support herself on or save in case of divorce or any issue, otherwise it is pointless and a person could still be taking advantage of her.
Then there are other obligations as well, but the main obligation is that you are able to financially provide for her and be a good husband and honor her and treat her well and take care of children if any are had and all that. All that duty is on the man mainly in the Islamic Law. That doesn't mean the woman can't work, just that it is not her duty to be the working one, it is the obligation of the man in being a righteous husband to take on all the providing activities where the woman's duty is traditionally to take care of children directly with breast feeding and whatever so she is not asked to also be the working one too but can of course.
The whole mind should be turned towards what is most just and right.
What is most just and right is the following
A man and a woman love each other, love meaning care for the well-being of the other and treat them as a priority to protect and cherish. What people usually call "love" meaning some passive sexual whim, is not a requirement, but justice and intent on doing justice is a requirement always in all things. So you should care enough about this person or especially yourself that you will be intent on doing justice and goodness.
You must strive hard and prove your care by the giving of a variety of gifts and affections all the marriage, not just the initial bridal gift of the dowry payment, but continue to provide for her the money for food and the food, and whatever else, just like a proper old cave man. She is basically yours to care for, so you must care for her entirely, not depend on her to care for herself, this is your duty. You need to treat her better than anything or anyone, this is like you've taken on a child or something however offensive that might sound to people, you can not neglect them, abuse them, starve them, etc.
Any man who does not live up to this obligation then is not properly performing the marriage, and most men do not live up to this in the Western society or perhaps elsewhere too, they are all falling short in everything and are generally wicked.
You must work to be better than everyone in goodness.
The woman has a free ride basically, no obligations except to doing justice in her own way, taking care of the children, remaining faithful, not being adulterous or cheating, etc, but the major work obligations are all yours, though she is supposed to be affectionate also but can not really be forced. It is your duty though to do all the caring acts and supportive acts, it is not her duty to carry you in any way, you must do all the carrying generally though she can help willingly, you should work even harder that she does not need to help and she is treated as well as possible.
Various scummy people on this website are not right minded so they oppose these statements but I am telling you the right thing for sure that will help you in all regards, even if this girl leaves you, you will be free from guilt or shame because you were excellent in every regard. Make it so the shame is on the evildoers, make anyone who does you wrong that they have done you wrong in the greatest ways with no justification because you were SO good in the most obvious manner.
You must be a total chump, the kind people call "p*ssy whipped" or whatever, that they will mock you for doing so much extra for your wife, but you know better, she is YOUR WIFE why wouldn't you treat her the best? Do you mistreat your own things? Then you mistreat yourself!
A good marriage is simply treating what is yours, as yours, and treating it well.
If you abuse what is yours, you work at self destruction.
This is a reminder to anyone who is currently married too, not to take it easy, but to strive hard in being good. Don't think it is wasted, it is a form of charity. Your wife and family and kin come first in charity.
So to make them laugh, to make them happy, to make them feel good bodily and otherwise, to make sure they are in good health, to pay them, to feed them, to give them gifts repeatedly, to surprise them, to honor them, to compliment them, to make them feel good, is an HONOR TO YOU.
It doesn't matter what they do, if they fight, if they are mean, you are only to perform justice in everything, and justice tempered with mercy. If you want God to shower you with gifts, treat others as you want God to treat you. I want God to give me gifts for free, for no merit of my own, to shower me with grace and bounty, and that is how you should act towards your companion and your family and your friends and the whole world.
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Pretty much yeah. It was typically a statement of proof to be able to financially provide for her, and she retains it even in case of divorce. It is still a "bride price" you basically are paying for her (not to her parents but to her), and she has to of course accept the price and that is the contract. She can't be forced. It almost sounds like modern prostitution but not a temporary contract, this is basically the marriage procedure so after the dowry is offered and accepted, then she has agreed to be married. It is almost similar to the "ring" tradition, except it appears the dowry should be something that she can support herself on or save in case of divorce or any issue, otherwise it is pointless and a person could still be taking advantage of her.
Then there are other obligations as well, but the main obligation is that you are able to financially provide for her and be a good husband and honor her and treat her well and take care of children if any are had and all that. All that duty is on the man mainly in the Islamic Law. That doesn't mean the woman can't work, just that it is not her duty to be the working one, it is the obligation of the man in being a righteous husband to take on all the providing activities where the woman's duty is traditionally to take care of children directly with breast feeding and whatever so she is not asked to also be the working one too but can of course.
The whole mind should be turned towards what is most just and right.
What is most just and right is the following
A man and a woman love each other, love meaning care for the well-being of the other and treat them as a priority to protect and cherish. What people usually call "love" meaning some passive sexual whim, is not a requirement, but justice and intent on doing justice is a requirement always in all things. So you should care enough about this person or especially yourself that you will be intent on doing justice and goodness.
You must strive hard and prove your care by the giving of a variety of gifts and affections all the marriage, not just the initial bridal gift of the dowry payment, but continue to provide for her the money for food and the food, and whatever else, just like a proper old cave man. She is basically yours to care for, so you must care for her entirely, not depend on her to care for herself, this is your duty. You need to treat her better than anything or anyone, this is like you've taken on a child or something however offensive that might sound to people, you can not neglect them, abuse them, starve them, etc.
Any man who does not live up to this obligation then is not properly performing the marriage, and most men do not live up to this in the Western society or perhaps elsewhere too, they are all falling short in everything and are generally wicked.
You must work to be better than everyone in goodness.
The woman has a free ride basically, no obligations except to doing justice in her own way, taking care of the children, remaining faithful, not being adulterous or cheating, etc, but the major work obligations are all yours, though she is supposed to be affectionate also but can not really be forced. It is your duty though to do all the caring acts and supportive acts, it is not her duty to carry you in any way, you must do all the carrying generally though she can help willingly, you should work even harder that she does not need to help and she is treated as well as possible.
Various scummy people on this website are not right minded so they oppose these statements but I am telling you the right thing for sure that will help you in all regards, even if this girl leaves you, you will be free from guilt or shame because you were excellent in every regard. Make it so the shame is on the evildoers, make anyone who does you wrong that they have done you wrong in the greatest ways with no justification because you were SO good in the most obvious manner.
You must be a total chump, the kind people call "p*ssy whipped" or whatever, that they will mock you for doing so much extra for your wife, but you know better, she is YOUR WIFE why wouldn't you treat her the best? Do you mistreat your own things? Then you mistreat yourself!
A good marriage is simply treating what is yours, as yours, and treating it well.
If you abuse what is yours, you work at self destruction.
This is a reminder to anyone who is currently married too, not to take it easy, but to strive hard in being good. Don't think it is wasted, it is a form of charity. Your wife and family and kin come first in charity.
So to make them laugh, to make them happy, to make them feel good bodily and otherwise, to make sure they are in good health, to pay them, to feed them, to give them gifts repeatedly, to surprise them, to honor them, to compliment them, to make them feel good, is an HONOR TO YOU.
It doesn't matter what they do, if they fight, if they are mean, you are only to perform justice in everything, and justice tempered with mercy. If you want God to shower you with gifts, treat others as you want God to treat you. I want God to give me gifts for free, for no merit of my own, to shower me with grace and bounty, and that is how you should act towards your companion and your family and your friends and the whole world.
Amazing Enlightment FreedomStands, this should be a lesson for a lot of couples out there
I'm a little bit new here, are the members in free-minds messed up or something?
Various scummy people on this website are not right minded so they oppose these statements
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Peace kamenriderkiki, why not do it the right way, get married?
You are not stranded on an Island are you?
God bless
peace
Well, you know, once we passed the age of woman slavery where the law treat the woman badly, and our current law put it upside down, treated the man badly. I was once having an arranged marriage by one of the sunni cleric here, I just met my ex-wife once and I have to make a decision fast. You know, our marriage was only last 2 weeks. Can you see why some people hestitate about marriage? We're not even do sexual relationship here but based on their religion, my dowry cannot be taken back. I wasted 5000USD here which for me is not cheap. If food on your country cost 20USD its just like you wasted 50000USD, because food here cost 1USD.
Have a look at the marriage law in the USA. No wonder no man wanted a marriage, and they just keep complaining and complaining. If they divorced they have to lose their car, share their saving, and kicked on their butt from their house, where the rest of his life he have to give her money. Yes, it looks fair on our standard right now, which we passed the time where woman treated badly. But it demotivated man to do marriage.
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Amazing Enlightment FreedomStands, this should be a lesson for a lot of couples out there
I'm a little bit new here, are the members in free-minds messed up or something?
The people on this website are very often seriously bad and messed up in many ways for the most part.
Thank you for enjoying what I've written!
Even the messed up people on this website can be nice seeming at times perhaps, but the promotion of shirk in various forms, the misuse of terminology, twisting things, there is just a huge mess going on, many of them consider me the top devil on the website, everything is backwards, truly their minds are very "free".
People are here saying the Earth is flat, that God doesn't create everything, that God relies on Chance, one guy is charging poor people 2000USD for prayers he says, people barely fight injustice and evil and fight me instead, they tend towards being more like Christians and confused people in general, they see a clear thing but deny it vehemently. It is as if God has really cursed many of the people on this website, like I've never seen anything like it elsewhere, where they say they are Muslims and are so way off from some things it seems, like the ideas go into weirdo town pretty strongly. Many of them might genuinely have various mental illnesses though which makes them kind of odd and hard to deal with but then many who seem to be in their senses fight basic logic too at times and it probably makes perfect sense to them but what the heck. They don't listen much either or carefully.
So I don't have a very good impression of the people here, but you'll encounter them first hand anyway and they might be gentle to you. I wrote a thing about a variety of their beliefs earlier, and you can check it out here if you're interested
Also feel free to email me at [email protected] and I left you a little private message as well with my contact information.
I know in private a few people from this website and they seem to have a nice time with me, and I've offered everyone my friendship and whatever generally, and I joke around but they are doing and saying many things I consider bad, or at times they seem fake to me or insincere, like putting up weird acts or trying to act fake like "in my humble opinion" haha just weird stuff, I've seen multiple people say "in my humble opinion" and they seem to insincerely add to the ends and beginnings of their posts "peace" and "may the blessings of Allah be upon you" with all kinds of blasphemies and insults in between and rudeness, like how fake and hypocritical.
I say stuff on here that is seriously good, and I'm like the only person who reads it and maybe a few others here and there. The majority don't seem to care or want to gain anything from it, so why are they even on the website? To spout non-sense and mislead people from Islam? That is what it seems like really, even though they call themselves Muslims, to make the face of this website unscientific and a thing of ridicule with the Earth being flat and a freaking guy stealing from the poor in exchange for prayers and many others saying every translation is totally wrong and nobody knows Arabic apparently and linguists are all crazy and they are the only linguists who know and have no education at all because mainstream education is a Satanic deception too?
I was told that before there may have been a time this website was better, but now its just a bunch of ruins haunted by "unclean spirits" lol.
Here you can read about some of the characters on here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607667.msg373946#msg373946
Anyway they will say silly stuff probably like "don't talk bad about people" but the Qur'an talks bad about lots of people and wrongness needs to be openly identified and made clear.
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Anyway, the dowry had been an unjust thing, where the GROOM's family would take the money from the Bride's family! How twisted! So the Qur'an set it to something just, that the man and the man's family doesn't rob the woman and take advantage of her, but she is protected more by rights and obligations, and though a woman can use this as a means to trick people and take money since the man can not take it back from her in justice (unless there is some clear cause perhaps) but it is to protect the one in the more vulnerable position generally.
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Well, you know, once we passed the age of woman slavery where the law treat the woman badly, and our current law put it upside down, treated the man badly. I was once having an arranged marriage by one of the sunni cleric here, I just met my ex-wife once and I have to make a decision fast. You know, our marriage was only last 2 weeks. Can you see why some people hestitate about marriage? We're not even do sexual relationship here but based on their religion, my dowry cannot be taken back. I wasted 5000USD here which for me is not cheap. If food on your country cost 20USD its just like you wasted 50000USD, because food here cost 1USD.
Have a look at the marriage law in the USA. No wonder no man wanted a marriage, and they just keep complaining and complaining. If they divorced they have to lose their car, share their saving, and kicked on their butt from their house, where the rest of his life he have to give her money. Yes, it looks fair on our standard right now, which we passed the time where woman treated badly. But it demotivated man to do marriage.
Did you get conned or something? What happened?
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Like a loan at a bank, you have to prove you are financially able to support the loan so there are proofs required.
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Did you get conned or something? What happened?
What is conned?
Just like I said, we have an arranged marriage. I personally think arranged marriage is not a good idea, if I talked to lots of girl, they always want a personal knowledge about the man approached her, I think it is instinctively.
So, here is what has happened. You knew it I was once a drug abuser, I've quited it 5 years ago. But if you saw my post from the begining or reading whole of my post on another forums, even when I reached the first year of my decision to quit Im still kinda a psycotic. Like I said, we need to make a decision fast, we are not allowed to talk, they called it ta'aruf. There is missunderstood here, I thought she knew about me, everything, because she asked to our teacher, and she thought, I was not once a drug addict. I told all of my condition to my teacher, but it seems she doesnot even asked to our teacher about me.
I think I told her about my condition before our marriage, even I asked her whether she want to cancel our marriage, but the marriage is continue. The first 2 weeks she said she was on period, so I did not touch her just like what the quran said. But then, she heard about me from her friends. She accused me that I was still on drugs, then it was proven to be wrong, then she accused me that I was HIV, I took the test, and it was proven to be wrong. And then she left to her parents house without my permissions, and she accused for beeing unjust, I told this to her, if there is no problem, she could be go anywhere she like, as long as not before our problem solved. Each time her accusation is proven to be wrong, she accused me with something else, where after I showed her her own faith, the hadist, she then admitedly, that she wanted a divorcion. I was very frustated, can you imagine how ashamed I was? And I was losing control, and started to insult her, and guess what? Now her reason to do divorcion is changed to, beeing insulted. Craps, since the begining she just does not wanted to keep the relationship. -
What is conned?
Just like I said, we have an arranged marriage. I personally think arranged marriage is not a good idea, if I talked to lots of girl, they always want a personal knowledge about the man approached her, I think it is instinctively.
So, here is what has happened. You knew it I was once a drug abuser, I've quited it 5 years ago. But if you saw my post from the begining or reading whole of my post on another forums, even when I reached the first year of my decision to quit Im still kinda a psycotic. Like I said, we need to make a decision fast, we are not allowed to talk, they called it ta'aruf. There is missunderstood here, I thought she knew about me, everything, because she asked to our teacher, and she thought, I was not once a drug addict. I told all of my condition to my teacher, but it seems she doesnot even asked to our teacher about me.
I think I told her about my condition before our marriage, even I asked her whether she want to cancel our marriage, but the marriage is continue. The first 2 weeks she said she was on period, so I did not touch her just like what the quran said. But then, she heard about me from her friends. She accused me that I was still on drugs, then it was proven to be wrong, then she accused me that I was HIV, I took the test, and it was proven to be wrong. And then she left to her parents house without my permissions, and she accused for beeing unjust, I told this to her, if there is no problem, she could be go anywhere she like, as long as not before our problem solved. Each time her accusation is proven to be wrong, she accused me with something else, where after I showed her her own faith, the hadist, she then admitedly, that she wanted a divorcion. I was very frustated, can you imagine how ashamed I was? And I was losing control, and started to insult her, and guess what? Now her reason to do divorcion is changed to, beeing insulted. Craps, since the begining she just does not wanted to keep the relationship.That is truly terrible, and she should have remitted the dowry out of a sense of justice , which was her right to do so if she wanted to. Good she is gone now, I don't think that marriage counted much as a marriage, just a strange technical incident which warned you of the troubles of these things.
The Qur'an gives the impression that the husband and the wife should know each other (how else can the wife be tested for her religious aptitude).
So their system is false and even un-Qur'anic. You need to know the woman, test the woman that she is a just person, and thus select wisely for the potential of mating and that a child might have a good mother and father if there is a child or that you are with someone who is good and righteous.
Good though, if she refused sex, then nothing was lost on both sides really, except the 5000USD which you can consider a charitable loss and a curse upon the unjust.
Whoever is well intended never fails really, and whoever is intended on ill is the loser, even if money is stolen wrongfully, the thief has not truly won but actually lost, and the one robbed can remit it as a charity and a curse that they were wronged, that the money be used well by the thief, and a curse upon the unjust.
Win-Win!
That doesn't mean not to take precautions though. If you are to get married ever again, this time everything will have to be known, the girl should be a true friend and should know the temper and the flaws and the person should also be intent fully on being the best person they can be beyond all necessity into the extremes of kindness and then they can't lose, even if the girl runs away, the good person who remains good will continue to be the winner and the bad person who does wrong will always be the loser for being unjust, even if they are wealthy and with many children and seem happy, and then God informs the people what is what and places them accordingly.
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Oh and "conned" means "tricked" and "taken advantage of" and can include "being tricked by some means and then stolen from".
So when people say "I was conned!" it usually implies some deliberate plot to mislead people, and then that sometimes includes a motive like theft.
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One potential example of a "con" by a potential "con artist" is drfazl taking 2000USD from each of the sick and poor people of the Tamilnadu who come to him in exchange for a "prayer" he does for them, refusing to partake in any medical services, thus robbing the poor for the work of Allah in the name of shirk since he says "Allah did not create everything, for example medical technologies" and so he charges people for his praying on their behalf as an intercessor. This would be considered a "con" by a "con artist", even though he might genuinely believe he is perfectly in the right doing this injustice.
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That is truly terrible, and she should have remitted the dowry out of a sense of justice , which was her right to do so if she wanted to. Good she is gone now, I don't think that marriage counted much as a marriage, just a strange technical incident which warned you of the troubles of these things.
The Qur'an gives the impression that the husband and the wife should know each other (how else can the wife be tested for her religious aptitude).
So their system is false and even un-Qur'anic. You need to know the woman, test the woman that she is a just person, and thus select wisely for the potential of mating and that a child might have a good mother and father if there is a child or that you are with someone who is good and righteous.
Good though, if she refused sex, then nothing was lost on both sides really, except the 5000USD which you can consider a charitable loss and a curse upon the unjust.
Whoever is well intended never fails really, and whoever is intended on ill is the loser, even if money is stolen wrongfully, the thief has not truly won but actually lost, and the one robbed can remit it as a charity and a curse that they were wronged, that the money be used well by the thief, and a curse upon the unjust.
Win-Win!
That doesn't mean not to take precautions though. If you are to get married ever again, this time everything will have to be known, the girl should be a true friend and should know the temper and the flaws and the person should also be intent fully on being the best person they can be beyond all necessity into the extremes of kindness and then they can't lose, even if the girl runs away, the good person who remains good will continue to be the winner and the bad person who does wrong will always be the loser for being unjust, even if they are wealthy and with many children and seem happy, and then God informs the people what is what and places them accordingly.
Hi thanks,
On Indonesia there is a campaign to do what they called "Ta'aruf" an arranged marriage where couple had to make decision fast, and cant know each other. For them boyfriend-girlfriend relationship was after marriage, which mean, can be broken anytime. Better carefull if you ever heard about "Ta'aruf", the one who introduced such a concept was known as "Hizbuttahrir".So the reason they introduced such a things is because male-female relationship should be restricted. Well, I always thought that they tend to generalize anything, in the age of internet porn booming, they forbid internet, but when one of their teacher using it to do "dakwah" they suddenly allowed it. I think most people when did not see the benefit will forbid everything, and what made me laugh is when I saw gun, obviously, gun had no use except for killing, if it was knive, we can still used it for cooking, but what about gun? Well, yes, I never heard gun was forbidden. Why they forbade girlfriend-boyfriend is because of some people do that too far and they cant see most people who did not do it. But, what can I say, we are too tired too see the truth, we just judge based on what we used to see. No wonder if people said Islam was terror.
The quran when mentioning sexual intercourse, on my language it used the word "mixed", but people on Indonesia interpret this "mixed" word as mixed between man and woman in the same place. I think on english there is another word for the same meaning, we're literaly lost in translation here. And then somebody invent hadist that forbade man and woman in the same place. This hadist was not free from problem, it causing lot of problems, and most people just ignore it. Man and woman worked on the same room, the class was filled with between male and female, even though most people simply ignore it, dont ever try to critize it, because people suddenly became so strict, but after a while, people re-ignore it.
That's Indonesia though. People doesnot care wheter a hadist was fake or not, whether some hadist in current time was valid but after a few years suddenly invalid or not, what they care is whether it is popular or not, and is it benefiting them or not.
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Well, you know, once we passed the age of woman slavery where the law treat the woman badly, and our current law put it upside down, treated the man badly. I was once having an arranged marriage by one of the sunni cleric here, I just met my ex-wife once and I have to make a decision fast. You know, our marriage was only last 2 weeks. Can you see why some people hestitate about marriage? We're not even do sexual relationship here but based on their religion, my dowry cannot be taken back. I wasted 5000USD here which for me is not cheap. If food on your country cost 20USD its just like you wasted 50000USD, because food here cost 1USD.
Have a look at the marriage law in the USA. No wonder no man wanted a marriage, and they just keep complaining and complaining. If they divorced they have to lose their car, share their saving, and kicked on their butt from their house, where the rest of his life he have to give her money. Yes, it looks fair on our standard right now, which we passed the time where woman treated badly. But it demotivated man to do marriage.
Man... that chick and her family is kinda messed up, from my understanding of the quran i think there's a difference between being Legally married and Religiously married, and you may not agree with me on this but i kinda see today's couple as technically religiously married according to the Quran, they both support each other financially, and the Guys today seem to be taking care of the girl right than any messed up couple in today's society.
Legal marriages according to the state they're in mostly ended up being used as an advantage to rob the husband's inheritance, i see today's couples(Girlfriend-boyfriend relationships) that are not legally married as Religiously married from my understanding of the quran if the man can provide for her of course and treat her and love her as a human being and a respectable women. They usually last longer than Legally married couples from what i see
Not trying to promote free sex here though...i only see that couples don't need to be legally married as long as they can provide and love each other
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Man... that chick and her family is kinda messed up, from my understanding of the quran i think there's a difference between being Legally married and Religiously married, and you may not agree with me on this but i kinda see today's couple as technically religiously married according to the Quran, they both support each other financially, and the Guys today seem to be taking care of the girl right than any messed up couple in today's society.
Legal marriages according to the state they're in mostly ended up being used as an advantage to rob the husband's inheritance, i see today's couples(Girlfriend-boyfriend relationships) that are not legally married as Religiously married from my understanding of the quran if the man can provide for her of course and treat her and love her as a human being and a respectable women. They usually last longer than Legally married couples from what i see
Not trying to promote free sex here though...i only see that couples don't need to be legally married as long as they can provide and love each other
So many men and women are hurt by sex and disloyalty and their future couplings are also hurt by the idea that their man or woman has been intimate with someone else.
The modern society is not a good example, nor is the ancient necessarily. We have to build up that good example in ourselves and in promoting what is best of all, not settling for what is current or what is past.
"This is what it should be" and delineated well, taking into account a great many factors intelligently.
It is highly disturbing for people, even if they pretend it means nothing to them, to imagine their current partner having been with another man intimately, and this whole lifestyle is rather an abominable pain on the world of humanity.
This is likely because our computers, our brains, run mental simulations which might become alert to disruptions like "how could she do that, she can do that with anyone, I am meaningless, it is all meaningless, she is meaningless, she can go with anyone else too in a second, I can't care for her because she could hurt me" or whatever else, running all these disrupting thoughts of warning. Meanwhile, people are greatly traumatized by all this.
The coupling and the marriage are generally the same, both are meaningless to people who have a disloyal heart and perspective.
Many people, their computers again run a simulation, "modern marriage means this, modern marriage ends badly, modern marriage is bad and not needed" and their calculations are not too bad, except there is probably more to the story than that, and we need to fight for what is best of all, not just the assessment of how things are now but also how things should be, both the assessment of how things are now and how they could be better and thus should be or how we should strive for their improvement for ourselves and then perhaps those we care about and then the rest of the world.
So I promote what I promote for that reason, and HERE IS A TEST
If a person fears getting married with the person, then really you are not in appropriate relationship (that doesn't mean all the people marry well, that just means that if on top of everything you are afraid of marrying the person that you won't marry them, then really you shouldn't be in a relationship with them at all or having sex or doing anything because of that same concern of instability or no safety in marriage or the future).
So quite simply, a man who does not want to marry a woman because he fears divorce, does not have the sufficient background to be having sex with her and treating her like a wife, he clearly doesn't trust her or in their future enough to marry her, it is a good test. The woman should not give in to such a man who shows clearly he does not have a faithful perspective but imagines some future without her or that she would hurt him (and she might indeed, I am not saying his calculation is wrong, I am saying that this is what it really means and so they shouldn't be having a half-assed non-marriage marriage either).
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S I have a question, if legal marriage isn't really obligatory but the religious part is important as in both partners care for each other and plan to stay with each other how does one notice/know the other person is serious and not being fake about the relationship
oh no
marriage is
a legal binding contract
but one can be married
Islamically
and the law of another country might not recognize it immediately
but the marriage is a legally bound contract
even by the standards of US law
its a contract
you make the contract with the dowry, ideally there are witnesses and a form is signed even
if it is not recognized by a country, that does not invalidate it
in reality
its a legally binding contract with payment involved
and obligations
to be fulfilled
so if that wasn't clear
maybe I should post this bit of the conversation
because people have to not misunderstand
S yes -
Haha, see if you can sort the jokes from the truth in these (I joke actually to trigger that you THINK, think about what is right and what is wrong, SORT, DECIPHER, use your DISCERNING ABILITY to REASON, but I make it EASY so that you can see the jokes are jokes and the serious parts are serious, but the people on this website often seem HUMORLESS, and HUMORLESSNESS may actually be akin to a lack of intelligence and ability to distinguish things or reason properly (it is all connected (all of it (even this))))
S But is the bonding part before marriage allowed? They have to learn to know each other right.
S that seems logical
yeah
no it is necessary
not just
allowed
why?
because how can you test
the belief of a person
without knowing them
and the test of the belief is a requirement
you can not know if they are a believer
or test their beliefs
if you are not able to observe them
naked
take your clothes off!
haah
but yeah
there is a whole thing about
interacting with them
enough to test their beliefs
plus they can not
choose to marry
the woman is the final chooser
and they can not choose
what they don't know
it is practically forced marriage if you don't even know
she needs to be able to give the final approval and can't do so without having any information on the matter
she needs to know the person
and if they are a believer
she can not make an assessment baselessly to make a good choice
she too needs to be observing and testing if this is one of those disqualified groups that she is not allowed to marry
a polytheist, etc
this is important as she is going to be in the task of
having babies potentially or whatever too
and laying there with her legs opened under this guy
and its a horrible thing
to be under an evil person
shirk person
unclean person
all these things need to be tested and known
and since I am the only one free of shirk among the men, it is your duty to lay under me!
we have to repopulate this world with shirk free babies!
sister! listen to me! shut up! listen to me sister! shut up!
HAHA made myself laugh
bu
but
the harlot!
the harlot!!!!!!!!!!!!!
shall not!!!!!!!
mingle!!!!!!!
and bond
with many men! or any men!
but the idea is just
that if she is planning on getting married
she needs to get to know the guy
but shouldn't be going around randomly mingling with guys and checking them out for marriage
that is a yucky way
would make the actual guy she does marry unhappy maybe
but he can do whaaatever the heck he wants!!!!!! girls everywhere!