Baccata and Haj
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Looks like even back then there were people saying what runninglikezebras is saying here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603126.msg287389#msg287389
So what was the conclusion of the Pazuzu article? Was Muhammed in Mecca and Medina like the mainstream academics say?
I saved the picture of the map, that was pretty cool!
Look , as you said I don't really care whether Muhammad was in Mars or Jupiter or even in Mecca and Medina like the mainstream academics say , because he is dead and we are not witness of him and moreover this information is not necessary for our salvation . But Pazzuzu's several posts including this one makes us think and understand religious history of Muslims , Christians and Jews and how they are fabricated including hadiths. Pazuzu's reasoning based on quranic Ayats , historians and archeological evidence. You should read them all to grasp it , if you want to better argue with people like runninglikezebra.
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Runninglikezebras is not arguing. I was merely expressing myself. I needed to express this or literally go mad. God is testing us all the time. God tested Abrahams loyalty when he asked him to slaughter his firstborn son. If that never happened there would be no Islam no Judaism no Christianity. We wouldn't be sitting here arguing about an insignificant test like the qibla. All I can say is this test of Abraham is and will always be significant to me. God promised a progeny to Abraham. Then God asks Abraham to slay his firstborn. Testing Abrahams loyalty to the One God to the maximum. Not only casting doubts about the ethical code of this One God. But also casting doubts about the entire progeny promised to him.
But I've withdrawn myself from this debate. I'm not trying to change the mainstream concept. I'm not trying to change anyone's conviction. And I'm not asking anyone to follow my understanding. My words are powerless. It's no factor in where your heart is considering its return to.
I expressed my opinion already about Pazuzu/Salibi's theory. One might take a look at the historical evidence for Lachish and ponder whether archaeology still allows displacing Israel to Yemen.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Lachish
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_LachishSome of the oldest inscriptions in paleo-hebrew were found at Lachish btw.
Peace
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Runninglikezebras is not arguing. I was merely expressing myself. I needed to express this or literally go mad. God is testing us all the time. God tested Abrahams loyalty when he asked him to slaughter his firstborn son. If that never happened there would be no Islam no Judaism no Christianity. We wouldn't be sitting here arguing about an insignificant test like the qibla.
But I've withdrawn myself from this debate. I'm not trying to change the mainstream concept. I'm not trying to change anyone's conviction. And I'm not asking anyone to follow my understanding. My words are powerless. It's no factor in where your heart is considering its return to.
I expressed my opinion already about Pazuzu/Salibi's theory. One might take a look at the historical evidence for Lachish and ponder whether archaeology still allows displacing Israel to Yemen.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Lachish
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_LachishSome of the oldest inscriptions in paleo-hebrew were found at Lachish btw.
Peace
Very cool stuff, even during any of the discussion, and thank you for expressing yourself!
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Would you go as far as Abraham if God asked you to slaughter your firstborn? There is something peculiar about this test of Abraham. The God personally testing Abraham. This is remarkable. There is no Shaytan or Iblis testing Abraham for the God. This makes it exceptional. The good reason for this testing and not leaving it to the "HR department" is because the entire progeny of messengers will spring forth from it.
Peace
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Very cool stuff, even during any of the discussion, and thank you for expressing yourself!
The stuff at Lachish is amazing. And proves the entire Yemen theory of Salibi is flawed. But look at this Assyrian ramp they built to siege the city with so soldiers could climb over the walls
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5a/LachishRamp053011.jpg/1920px-LachishRamp053011.jpg
Now look at the next picture, this is Sennacherib on his throne placed in front of the walls of Lachish giving the permission to his soldiers to take the town and slaughter everyone in it
https//i2.wp.com/www.lessing-photo.com/p3/080203/08020359.jpg
This next picture shows Sennacherib reviewing the captured Judaean prisoners and it's one of the few depictions of how they may have actually looked like from an external point of view.
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/The_fall_of_Lachish%2C_King_Sennacherib_reviews_Judaean_prisoners..JPG/1920px-The_fall_of_Lachish%2C_King_Sennacherib_reviews_Judaean_prisoners..JPG
The deportation of Judaeans
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Judaean_people_are_being_deported_into_exile_after_the_capture_of_Lachish..JPG/1920px-Judaean_people_are_being_deported_into_exile_after_the_capture_of_Lachish..JPG
You can still visit the site, it's entirely abandoned now. You can still walk on that Assyrian ramp and see the ruins of the commander's palace.
Lachish is connected to Jerusalem in the sense that it was a stronghold to protect the northern parts with among which Jerusalem. Lachish and Jerusalem are referred to together in biblical phrases and it's one of the best pieces of biblical archaeology matching the verses.
Peace
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Would you go as far as Abraham if God asked you to slaughter your firstborn? There is something peculiar about this test of Abraham. The God personally testing Abraham. This is remarkable. There is no Shaytan or Iblis testing Abraham for the God. This makes it exceptional. The good reason for this testing and not leaving it to the "HR department" is because the entire progeny of messengers will spring forth from it.
Peace
Good question.
In the Qur'anic version, it is a dream he has had, with no emphasis on it being a certain command to be carried out in a certain way, that Allah has specified, as compared to the Biblical version.
Even so, God can command anything.
Abraham had already been witness, according to the mainstream Qur'an, to having slaughtered birds and them being returned to life and to him even after their body parts had been scattered on a variety of mountains. He had seen many miraculous things, such as fire or heat having no effect on him in the incident of the oven. The warning and the destruction of the civilization of Lot. The sacrifice of his son literally would have meant little, as God had made evident that they can easily be returned to life or anything else.
To ask this of someone who has not seen evidence, would be even more harsh, and Allah can do that too. Us killing our kid is not even comparable to a person who has witnessed cut up body parts returned together and natural elements not having their natural effects, and attacks from outer space or the sky obliterating an entire community. In fact, it would be rather stupid to disobey such a power in anything and risk horrors or horrors upon their child for even more suffering.
Regardless, one might wonder if other versions might also have had good results, like reasoning why that is wrong or whatever else one might do.
It is important for everyone to know, if some command or voice comes to them to kill their children (as it has to many people), they are to disobey such things and explain why that is wrong.
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It is important for everyone to know, if some command or voice comes to them to kill their children (as it has to many people), they are to disobey such things and explain why that is wrong.
Agreed. Please don't kill your kids. To us (not being Abraham), killing your children is a form of fahisha. I relate that instruction in Quran back to this event in which the God stopped Abraham from executing the instruction he received in a dream. In and before Abrahams time child sacrifice was entirely not uncommon.
Peace
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Agreed. Please don't kill your kids. To us (not being Abraham), killing your children is a form of fahisha. I relate that instruction in Quran back to this event in which the God stopped Abraham from executing the instruction he received in a dream. In and before Abrahams time child sacrifice was entirely not uncommon.
Peace
Yeah, I think the idea was back then with the child sacrifices "give up what is most precious to you to the God that you want to receive precious favors from" it occurs even to this day.
It is like a twisted version of my saying "treat everything how you would want God to treat you. You want God to give you gifts freely, so give gifts freely to people and relieve anxiety and suffering and be loving and kind to the creatures and the animals" and their idea must have been something like "we devote to God our most precious gifts, we burn our best prize lamb up to God, sacrificing it, and our beloved child, that you may grant us your good pleasure", it seems not too far away for people to twist things into evilness, even sensibly "as they look on".
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Yeah, I think the idea was back then with the child sacrifices "give up what is most precious to you to the God that you want to receive precious favors from" it occurs even to this day.
It is like a twisted version of my saying "treat everything how you would want God to treat you. You want God to give you gifts freely, so give gifts freely to people and relieve anxiety and suffering and be loving and kind to the creatures and the animals" and their idea must have been something like "we devote to God our most precious gifts, we burn our best prize lamb up to God, sacrificing it, and our beloved child, that you may grant us your good pleasure", it seems not too far away for people to twist things into evilness, even sensibly "as they look on".
Exactly. I agree with Kierkegaard
The philosopher S?ren Kierkegaard claimed that divine omnipotence cannot be separated from divine goodness. As a truly omnipotent and good being, God could create beings with true freedom over God. Furthermore, God would voluntarily do so because "the greatest good ... which can be done for a being, greater than anything else that one can do for it, is to be truly free."
One might ask where is the freedom in Abrahams choice when he had that dream. But it's entirely there. No one was putting a shotgun to his head saying now do this.
Peace
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In the dream about sacrificing Isma3il God does no order anything at all. In fact God does not appear at all in the dream. That is important.
Salaam
True, no specifics were mentioned about the dream. But there is little doubt the dream was a trial by the God for Abraham. Why else would the God say "Oh Abraham verily you have fulfilled the vision/dream. Indeed we thus reward the good-doers. Indeed this was surely the trial."
Where do you get the idea the son was Ishmael and not Isaac, huruf?
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
See what you make of this
http//islam101.com/religions/christianity/sacrifice.htm
What is your understanding? Ishmail or Isaac?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
You do not seem to read neither the Qur'an in the Qur'an nor the qur'an when it is quoted here, I quoted the ayas where it is plain that Isaac comes after, when isma3il had already lived the episode of the sacrifice. Look at those ayas and the following ones.
Also Isma3il in the Qur'an is associated with patience and that is what he affirms during the epesode of the dream "you will find that I am patient".
But since the bible says it was Ishaq just as it also says that Ibrahim was ready to cut his throat and not that he dreamed but that God ordered it, undoubtedly the Qur'an doesn't know a damned thing and it is all wrong what it says, whereas the one destined to sacrifice was Ishaq, sinse the Bible never errs and corrects the Qur'an.
Salaam
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Exactly. I agree with Kierkegaard
The philosopher S?ren Kierkegaard claimed that divine omnipotence cannot be separated from divine goodness. As a truly omnipotent and good being, God could create beings with true freedom over God. Furthermore, God would voluntarily do so because "the greatest good ... which can be done for a being, greater than anything else that one can do for it, is to be truly free."
One might ask where is the freedom in Abrahams choice when he had that dream. But it's entirely there. No one was putting a shotgun to his head saying now do this.
Peace
I wrote a nice big reply, but as it happens often, my browser crashed and I lost it all.
Anyway, I was going to say basically, that there is usually an error in thinking when people state things like "God can do anything" to mean that that includes linguistic and logical impossibilities like "Ultimate is not Ultimate" and ridiculous stuff like that, so there are limits, God can not do certain things by definition or else God would not be God, which I mention here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607697.msg373883#msg373883