Is it zina?
-
Did you get conned or something? What happened?
What is conned?
Just like I said, we have an arranged marriage. I personally think arranged marriage is not a good idea, if I talked to lots of girl, they always want a personal knowledge about the man approached her, I think it is instinctively.
So, here is what has happened. You knew it I was once a drug abuser, I've quited it 5 years ago. But if you saw my post from the begining or reading whole of my post on another forums, even when I reached the first year of my decision to quit Im still kinda a psycotic. Like I said, we need to make a decision fast, we are not allowed to talk, they called it ta'aruf. There is missunderstood here, I thought she knew about me, everything, because she asked to our teacher, and she thought, I was not once a drug addict. I told all of my condition to my teacher, but it seems she doesnot even asked to our teacher about me.
I think I told her about my condition before our marriage, even I asked her whether she want to cancel our marriage, but the marriage is continue. The first 2 weeks she said she was on period, so I did not touch her just like what the quran said. But then, she heard about me from her friends. She accused me that I was still on drugs, then it was proven to be wrong, then she accused me that I was HIV, I took the test, and it was proven to be wrong. And then she left to her parents house without my permissions, and she accused for beeing unjust, I told this to her, if there is no problem, she could be go anywhere she like, as long as not before our problem solved. Each time her accusation is proven to be wrong, she accused me with something else, where after I showed her her own faith, the hadist, she then admitedly, that she wanted a divorcion. I was very frustated, can you imagine how ashamed I was? And I was losing control, and started to insult her, and guess what? Now her reason to do divorcion is changed to, beeing insulted. Craps, since the begining she just does not wanted to keep the relationship. -
What is conned?
Just like I said, we have an arranged marriage. I personally think arranged marriage is not a good idea, if I talked to lots of girl, they always want a personal knowledge about the man approached her, I think it is instinctively.
So, here is what has happened. You knew it I was once a drug abuser, I've quited it 5 years ago. But if you saw my post from the begining or reading whole of my post on another forums, even when I reached the first year of my decision to quit Im still kinda a psycotic. Like I said, we need to make a decision fast, we are not allowed to talk, they called it ta'aruf. There is missunderstood here, I thought she knew about me, everything, because she asked to our teacher, and she thought, I was not once a drug addict. I told all of my condition to my teacher, but it seems she doesnot even asked to our teacher about me.
I think I told her about my condition before our marriage, even I asked her whether she want to cancel our marriage, but the marriage is continue. The first 2 weeks she said she was on period, so I did not touch her just like what the quran said. But then, she heard about me from her friends. She accused me that I was still on drugs, then it was proven to be wrong, then she accused me that I was HIV, I took the test, and it was proven to be wrong. And then she left to her parents house without my permissions, and she accused for beeing unjust, I told this to her, if there is no problem, she could be go anywhere she like, as long as not before our problem solved. Each time her accusation is proven to be wrong, she accused me with something else, where after I showed her her own faith, the hadist, she then admitedly, that she wanted a divorcion. I was very frustated, can you imagine how ashamed I was? And I was losing control, and started to insult her, and guess what? Now her reason to do divorcion is changed to, beeing insulted. Craps, since the begining she just does not wanted to keep the relationship.That is truly terrible, and she should have remitted the dowry out of a sense of justice , which was her right to do so if she wanted to. Good she is gone now, I don't think that marriage counted much as a marriage, just a strange technical incident which warned you of the troubles of these things.
The Qur'an gives the impression that the husband and the wife should know each other (how else can the wife be tested for her religious aptitude).
So their system is false and even un-Qur'anic. You need to know the woman, test the woman that she is a just person, and thus select wisely for the potential of mating and that a child might have a good mother and father if there is a child or that you are with someone who is good and righteous.
Good though, if she refused sex, then nothing was lost on both sides really, except the 5000USD which you can consider a charitable loss and a curse upon the unjust.
Whoever is well intended never fails really, and whoever is intended on ill is the loser, even if money is stolen wrongfully, the thief has not truly won but actually lost, and the one robbed can remit it as a charity and a curse that they were wronged, that the money be used well by the thief, and a curse upon the unjust.
Win-Win!
That doesn't mean not to take precautions though. If you are to get married ever again, this time everything will have to be known, the girl should be a true friend and should know the temper and the flaws and the person should also be intent fully on being the best person they can be beyond all necessity into the extremes of kindness and then they can't lose, even if the girl runs away, the good person who remains good will continue to be the winner and the bad person who does wrong will always be the loser for being unjust, even if they are wealthy and with many children and seem happy, and then God informs the people what is what and places them accordingly.
-
Oh and "conned" means "tricked" and "taken advantage of" and can include "being tricked by some means and then stolen from".
So when people say "I was conned!" it usually implies some deliberate plot to mislead people, and then that sometimes includes a motive like theft.
-
One potential example of a "con" by a potential "con artist" is drfazl taking 2000USD from each of the sick and poor people of the Tamilnadu who come to him in exchange for a "prayer" he does for them, refusing to partake in any medical services, thus robbing the poor for the work of Allah in the name of shirk since he says "Allah did not create everything, for example medical technologies" and so he charges people for his praying on their behalf as an intercessor. This would be considered a "con" by a "con artist", even though he might genuinely believe he is perfectly in the right doing this injustice.
-
That is truly terrible, and she should have remitted the dowry out of a sense of justice , which was her right to do so if she wanted to. Good she is gone now, I don't think that marriage counted much as a marriage, just a strange technical incident which warned you of the troubles of these things.
The Qur'an gives the impression that the husband and the wife should know each other (how else can the wife be tested for her religious aptitude).
So their system is false and even un-Qur'anic. You need to know the woman, test the woman that she is a just person, and thus select wisely for the potential of mating and that a child might have a good mother and father if there is a child or that you are with someone who is good and righteous.
Good though, if she refused sex, then nothing was lost on both sides really, except the 5000USD which you can consider a charitable loss and a curse upon the unjust.
Whoever is well intended never fails really, and whoever is intended on ill is the loser, even if money is stolen wrongfully, the thief has not truly won but actually lost, and the one robbed can remit it as a charity and a curse that they were wronged, that the money be used well by the thief, and a curse upon the unjust.
Win-Win!
That doesn't mean not to take precautions though. If you are to get married ever again, this time everything will have to be known, the girl should be a true friend and should know the temper and the flaws and the person should also be intent fully on being the best person they can be beyond all necessity into the extremes of kindness and then they can't lose, even if the girl runs away, the good person who remains good will continue to be the winner and the bad person who does wrong will always be the loser for being unjust, even if they are wealthy and with many children and seem happy, and then God informs the people what is what and places them accordingly.
Hi thanks,
On Indonesia there is a campaign to do what they called "Ta'aruf" an arranged marriage where couple had to make decision fast, and cant know each other. For them boyfriend-girlfriend relationship was after marriage, which mean, can be broken anytime. Better carefull if you ever heard about "Ta'aruf", the one who introduced such a concept was known as "Hizbuttahrir".So the reason they introduced such a things is because male-female relationship should be restricted. Well, I always thought that they tend to generalize anything, in the age of internet porn booming, they forbid internet, but when one of their teacher using it to do "dakwah" they suddenly allowed it. I think most people when did not see the benefit will forbid everything, and what made me laugh is when I saw gun, obviously, gun had no use except for killing, if it was knive, we can still used it for cooking, but what about gun? Well, yes, I never heard gun was forbidden. Why they forbade girlfriend-boyfriend is because of some people do that too far and they cant see most people who did not do it. But, what can I say, we are too tired too see the truth, we just judge based on what we used to see. No wonder if people said Islam was terror.
The quran when mentioning sexual intercourse, on my language it used the word "mixed", but people on Indonesia interpret this "mixed" word as mixed between man and woman in the same place. I think on english there is another word for the same meaning, we're literaly lost in translation here. And then somebody invent hadist that forbade man and woman in the same place. This hadist was not free from problem, it causing lot of problems, and most people just ignore it. Man and woman worked on the same room, the class was filled with between male and female, even though most people simply ignore it, dont ever try to critize it, because people suddenly became so strict, but after a while, people re-ignore it.
That's Indonesia though. People doesnot care wheter a hadist was fake or not, whether some hadist in current time was valid but after a few years suddenly invalid or not, what they care is whether it is popular or not, and is it benefiting them or not.
-
Well, you know, once we passed the age of woman slavery where the law treat the woman badly, and our current law put it upside down, treated the man badly. I was once having an arranged marriage by one of the sunni cleric here, I just met my ex-wife once and I have to make a decision fast. You know, our marriage was only last 2 weeks. Can you see why some people hestitate about marriage? We're not even do sexual relationship here but based on their religion, my dowry cannot be taken back. I wasted 5000USD here which for me is not cheap. If food on your country cost 20USD its just like you wasted 50000USD, because food here cost 1USD.
Have a look at the marriage law in the USA. No wonder no man wanted a marriage, and they just keep complaining and complaining. If they divorced they have to lose their car, share their saving, and kicked on their butt from their house, where the rest of his life he have to give her money. Yes, it looks fair on our standard right now, which we passed the time where woman treated badly. But it demotivated man to do marriage.
Man... that chick and her family is kinda messed up, from my understanding of the quran i think there's a difference between being Legally married and Religiously married, and you may not agree with me on this but i kinda see today's couple as technically religiously married according to the Quran, they both support each other financially, and the Guys today seem to be taking care of the girl right than any messed up couple in today's society.
Legal marriages according to the state they're in mostly ended up being used as an advantage to rob the husband's inheritance, i see today's couples(Girlfriend-boyfriend relationships) that are not legally married as Religiously married from my understanding of the quran if the man can provide for her of course and treat her and love her as a human being and a respectable women. They usually last longer than Legally married couples from what i see
Not trying to promote free sex here though...i only see that couples don't need to be legally married as long as they can provide and love each other
-
Man... that chick and her family is kinda messed up, from my understanding of the quran i think there's a difference between being Legally married and Religiously married, and you may not agree with me on this but i kinda see today's couple as technically religiously married according to the Quran, they both support each other financially, and the Guys today seem to be taking care of the girl right than any messed up couple in today's society.
Legal marriages according to the state they're in mostly ended up being used as an advantage to rob the husband's inheritance, i see today's couples(Girlfriend-boyfriend relationships) that are not legally married as Religiously married from my understanding of the quran if the man can provide for her of course and treat her and love her as a human being and a respectable women. They usually last longer than Legally married couples from what i see
Not trying to promote free sex here though...i only see that couples don't need to be legally married as long as they can provide and love each other
So many men and women are hurt by sex and disloyalty and their future couplings are also hurt by the idea that their man or woman has been intimate with someone else.
The modern society is not a good example, nor is the ancient necessarily. We have to build up that good example in ourselves and in promoting what is best of all, not settling for what is current or what is past.
"This is what it should be" and delineated well, taking into account a great many factors intelligently.
It is highly disturbing for people, even if they pretend it means nothing to them, to imagine their current partner having been with another man intimately, and this whole lifestyle is rather an abominable pain on the world of humanity.
This is likely because our computers, our brains, run mental simulations which might become alert to disruptions like "how could she do that, she can do that with anyone, I am meaningless, it is all meaningless, she is meaningless, she can go with anyone else too in a second, I can't care for her because she could hurt me" or whatever else, running all these disrupting thoughts of warning. Meanwhile, people are greatly traumatized by all this.
The coupling and the marriage are generally the same, both are meaningless to people who have a disloyal heart and perspective.
Many people, their computers again run a simulation, "modern marriage means this, modern marriage ends badly, modern marriage is bad and not needed" and their calculations are not too bad, except there is probably more to the story than that, and we need to fight for what is best of all, not just the assessment of how things are now but also how things should be, both the assessment of how things are now and how they could be better and thus should be or how we should strive for their improvement for ourselves and then perhaps those we care about and then the rest of the world.
So I promote what I promote for that reason, and HERE IS A TEST
If a person fears getting married with the person, then really you are not in appropriate relationship (that doesn't mean all the people marry well, that just means that if on top of everything you are afraid of marrying the person that you won't marry them, then really you shouldn't be in a relationship with them at all or having sex or doing anything because of that same concern of instability or no safety in marriage or the future).
So quite simply, a man who does not want to marry a woman because he fears divorce, does not have the sufficient background to be having sex with her and treating her like a wife, he clearly doesn't trust her or in their future enough to marry her, it is a good test. The woman should not give in to such a man who shows clearly he does not have a faithful perspective but imagines some future without her or that she would hurt him (and she might indeed, I am not saying his calculation is wrong, I am saying that this is what it really means and so they shouldn't be having a half-assed non-marriage marriage either).
-
S I have a question, if legal marriage isn't really obligatory but the religious part is important as in both partners care for each other and plan to stay with each other how does one notice/know the other person is serious and not being fake about the relationship
oh no
marriage is
a legal binding contract
but one can be married
Islamically
and the law of another country might not recognize it immediately
but the marriage is a legally bound contract
even by the standards of US law
its a contract
you make the contract with the dowry, ideally there are witnesses and a form is signed even
if it is not recognized by a country, that does not invalidate it
in reality
its a legally binding contract with payment involved
and obligations
to be fulfilled
so if that wasn't clear
maybe I should post this bit of the conversation
because people have to not misunderstand
S yes -
Haha, see if you can sort the jokes from the truth in these (I joke actually to trigger that you THINK, think about what is right and what is wrong, SORT, DECIPHER, use your DISCERNING ABILITY to REASON, but I make it EASY so that you can see the jokes are jokes and the serious parts are serious, but the people on this website often seem HUMORLESS, and HUMORLESSNESS may actually be akin to a lack of intelligence and ability to distinguish things or reason properly (it is all connected (all of it (even this))))
S But is the bonding part before marriage allowed? They have to learn to know each other right.
S that seems logical
yeah
no it is necessary
not just
allowed
why?
because how can you test
the belief of a person
without knowing them
and the test of the belief is a requirement
you can not know if they are a believer
or test their beliefs
if you are not able to observe them
naked
take your clothes off!
haah
but yeah
there is a whole thing about
interacting with them
enough to test their beliefs
plus they can not
choose to marry
the woman is the final chooser
and they can not choose
what they don't know
it is practically forced marriage if you don't even know
she needs to be able to give the final approval and can't do so without having any information on the matter
she needs to know the person
and if they are a believer
she can not make an assessment baselessly to make a good choice
she too needs to be observing and testing if this is one of those disqualified groups that she is not allowed to marry
a polytheist, etc
this is important as she is going to be in the task of
having babies potentially or whatever too
and laying there with her legs opened under this guy
and its a horrible thing
to be under an evil person
shirk person
unclean person
all these things need to be tested and known
and since I am the only one free of shirk among the men, it is your duty to lay under me!
we have to repopulate this world with shirk free babies!
sister! listen to me! shut up! listen to me sister! shut up!
HAHA made myself laugh
bu
but
the harlot!
the harlot!!!!!!!!!!!!!
shall not!!!!!!!
mingle!!!!!!!
and bond
with many men! or any men!
but the idea is just
that if she is planning on getting married
she needs to get to know the guy
but shouldn't be going around randomly mingling with guys and checking them out for marriage
that is a yucky way
would make the actual guy she does marry unhappy maybe
but he can do whaaatever the heck he wants!!!!!! girls everywhere! -
The bonding is the marriage itself, the mithaq ghalith, God speaks about.
All the other "requirements" are that requirements so as not to provide an escape to lawless or "forgetful" men who might do the real flesh marriage and then take it lightly since nobody comes after them to exact anything and actual flesh marriage might be difficult to prove the one of them (usually the man) defaults or betrays the mithaq. A piece of paper or some words said are not marriage, marriage is the act whereby procreation can take place. Papers do not get pregnant.
Salaam
-
The bonding is the marriage itself, the mithaq ghalith, God speaks about.
All the other "requirements" are that requirements so as not to provide an escape to lawless or "forgetful" men who might do the real flesh marriage and then take it lightly since nobody comes after them to exact anything and actual flesh marriage might be difficult to prove the one of them (usually the man) defaults or betrays the mithaq. A piece of paper or some words said are not marriage, marriage is the act whereby procreation can take place. Papers do not get pregnant.
Salaam
Yeah, this is how it basically was, there really was no written contract, it was an obligation and in ancient times whoever you had sex with was basically your wife and you had all these obligations and she did as well, but people were abusing this as they do today and are without obligations or rights and are doing crime and injustice across all humanity.
-
How can you make marriage sacred when God has made the bond of sex as a glorious gift to tranmit life and preserve the species and then you come ans say that no, that is not sacred, what is sacred are the papers. It seems to me as a real monstrosity, the mithaq ghalith disposed by God s means of furthering th species and the artifices human make to have their way as against the marvels of God.
If people do not consider that sexual bonding between those who transmit life is the mithaq ghalith and the godly thing, how can they after oppose same sex marriage. According to them the marriage is in the papers or the formulas not in the bonding itself, so there you are, your papers and your formulas stick to them and invent a new way of having children.
Salaam
-
How can you make marriage sacred when God has made the bond of sex as a glorious gift to tranmit life and preserve the species and then you come ans say that no, that is not sacred, what is sacred are the papers. It seems to me as a real monstrosity, the mithaq ghalith disposed by God s means of furthering th species and the artifices human make to have their way as against the marvels of God.
If people do not consider that sexual bonding between those who transmit life is the mithaq ghalith and the godly thing, how can they after oppose same sex marriage. According to them the marriage is in the papers or the formulas not in the bonding itself, so there you are, your papers and your formulas stick to them and invent a new way of having children.
Salaam
True, definitely great points. Though as a side note, just in case anyone is getting confused, sex without the necessary intent of having children seems to be an acceptable practice, but what you said is true and cool and I believe the same, the papers are not sacred.
-
Generally though, when people say "it is no big deal, it is not sacred" it means the kind of sex they do, the two second masturbation in someones body business, is not sacred, and basically they are correct, but it shouldn't be that way.
-
True, definitely great points. Though as a side note, just in case anyone is getting confused, sex without the necessary intent of having children seems to be an acceptable practice, but what you said is true and cool and I believe the same, the papers are not sacred.
right, and in fact there is an age when women can no longer have children. But the point is that having children still is through that means and God made it so and it is the way Gdo wants it, up till now at least.
The point is that there is a mithaq ghalith and that is is the effect of furthering the species which makes of collective value. The good time anybody can have with somebody else is of no consequence for society at large. But female.male bonding on the other hand is the source of the most important object of the human species as such ans as a society.
As to the sex part, it is plausible that the mithaq ghalith may extend beyond the procreation part in the sense that still is a strong bonding for even when the children are already there, continue to be bonded and also from another point of view it is like a "sacred" object like for instance a medical coat or marriage suit, even when thy are not used for curing or for marriage, there is already a reverence for them, or in the catholic church a holy chalice. When it is clean and empty it is still a sacred object that one respects and reverences because of what its destined use is.
So once sacred, always sacred, once mithaq ghalith, always mithaq ghalith.
Salaam
-
Generally though, when people say "it is no big deal, it is not sacred" it means the kind of sex they do, the two second masturbation in someones body business, is not sacred, and basically they are correct, but it shouldn't be that way.
It is a bit like thirst. Thirst if for us to get enough liquid and not faint or die or whatever. But one can also drink for pleasure, but not out of measure, because healthwise we pay for it.
Same with this, ok to drink for leisure, but within bounds so that we do not loose the grace God gave us through that means.
Coca cola by the gallon I think it is zina, now that renninglike zebras was wondering about.
Salaam
-
It is a bit like thirst. Thirst if for us to get enough liquid and not faint or die or whatever. But one can also drink for pleasure, but not out of measure, because healthwise we pay for it.
Same with this, ok to drink for leisure, but within bounds so that we do not loose the grace God gave us through that means.
Coca cola by the gallon I think it is zina, now that renninglike zebras was wondering about.
Salaam
Interesting yeah, transgression, good points.
-
Man... that chick and her family is kinda messed up, from my understanding of the quran i think there's a difference between being Legally married and Religiously married, and you may not agree with me on this but i kinda see today's couple as technically religiously married according to the Quran, they both support each other financially, and the Guys today seem to be taking care of the girl right than any messed up couple in today's society.
Legal marriages according to the state they're in mostly ended up being used as an advantage to rob the husband's inheritance, i see today's couples(Girlfriend-boyfriend relationships) that are not legally married as Religiously married from my understanding of the quran if the man can provide for her of course and treat her and love her as a human being and a respectable women. They usually last longer than Legally married couples from what i see
Not trying to promote free sex here though...i only see that couples don't need to be legally married as long as they can provide and love each other
On this current condition, I cant help except agreeing with you. Yes we need to be idealist, but we need to be realistic too. Once I saw a widow who aggresively looking for a partner, her desire made her badly look for a man, in the end, they did just exactly what we expected. As for man, hah, even the one who got wife still looking for a prostitute. The point is, when men or woman had no partner, each of them will destroy the social system.
-
On this current condition, I cant help except agreeing with you. Yes we need to be idealist, but we need to be realistic too. Once I saw a widow who aggresively looking for a partner, her desire made her badly look for a man, in the end, they did just exactly what we expected. As for man, hah, even the one who got wife still looking for a prostitute. The point is, when men or woman had no partner, each of them will destroy the social system.
Very good! One must look at the reality of things, and the reality can be quite ugly! Then, we should not give into the ugliness, but strive against it by seeing what is unpleasant and defying it in our own manner.
-
I think that the sexual bonding is the marriage and that many times it is betrayedm but society does not have the courage to fight betrayal and instead falls for the legal or seudoreligious tricks, and offers again leeway to those who do not take seriously real marriage and make a joke of it, of God, and of humanity.
Things being as they are, while insisting that the real marriaga is the sexual bonding itself, I WOULD NEVER advise a womanm unless a powerful woman, to give in to the "no need of papers" or no need to formalise anything line. That puts her square in the hands of every slandering mobs and in the hands of any male without a conscience.
No I affirm the principle that marriage is the bond of flesh, but I also warn candid women that those who use them shit on anything that is holy an shits on them.
That is why the Qur'an insists on publicity and involving as many people as possible in the commitments, so that those without honour find it more difficult to be without honour in a males world.
Salaam