Bakka/Mecca
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Why not ascend Zion instead?
Maybe because they aren't believers innthe Bible over the Quran in its mainstream interpretation.
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Freedomstands,
It was a deceptive statement.
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Freedomstands,
It was a deceptive statement.
I think Mount Zion is often a metaphorical thing, even "Israel" very often seems to be a spiritual reference rather than a literal place being mentioned in some cases. Similarly "Babylon" has come to have a spiritual implication.
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Peace Hafeez,
You should be 1000% certain that bakkah does not refer to the DUPLICATE MAKKAH of Saudi Arabia.
Funny that you said that, because I was about to write 1000% and then at the last second wrote one hundred percent just for the sake of accuracy! I even contemplated writing a million percent for one second )
Best regards.
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Peace Hafeez,
Funny that you said that, because I was about to write 1000% and then at the last second wrote one hundred percent just for the sake of accuracy! I even contemplated writing a million percent for one second
Best regards.
Haha still too confident!
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peace truthseeker
There are tens of Quranic verses and tens of hadith which contradicts the present fake duplicate Mecca. Numerous times on this website I have posted those Quranic verses which exposed the fake duplicate Mecca. The sectarians have never challenged those verses but while being adamant in their belief in the fake duplicate Mecca they have neglected those verses. They say that they believe in the Quran but when the truth is manifest to them they turn away from it.
Surely I will post those collected hadith of Bukhari and co. which describes Mecca, Safa, Marwah, kaba thus exposing the fake duplicate Mecca
It will surely BOOST your CONFIDENCE.
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Of course Zion is a metaphor. There was never any doubt about it. It's not even of this world.
Babylon is a place though in ancient times.
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Of course Zion is a metaphor. There was never any doubt about it. It's not even of this world.
Babylon is a place though in ancient times.
That is true, but even Babylon is used as a metaphor often in many writings, including extra stuff that isn't part of the Bible where it was used as a metaphorical word.
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There is no direct evidence only indirect.
The indirect evidence in OT is as follows
"Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools."
The word Baca occurs rarely in the Bible; it is also found in 2 Samuel 523,24 and 1 Chronicles 1414,15 where it identifies a valley in which David fought the Philistines. The word Baka describes a bush, probably a Balsam bush but translated in the AV as a mulberry tree.
In 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles the valley of Baka is a valley full of balsam bushes near the valley of Rephaim. This is to the southwest of Jerusalem and forms an approach route to the city. The Philistines encamped in Rephaim to attack Jerusalem (2 Samuel 517,1, which shows that it is not in Arabia and David attacked Philistines who were encamped in the valley of Rephaim from the Valley of Baca (2 Sam. 523,24; 1 Chron. 1414,15). Therefore the valley of Baka is near Jerusalem. It is clearly not in Arabia.
The Psalm is in praise of the house of God (the temple) in Jerusalem. Verses 5-7 describe the last part of the ascent of pilgrims to this house; the particular pilgrims ascend from the south west through the valley of Baca.
Psalm 846 describes a well made by the pilgrims. The well Zam-zam in Mecca was not made by pilgrims.
The valley is filled with pools of water by the rains. Mecca is very dry all the year round; it virtually never finds itself surrounded by pools of standing water left by rains.
The end of the pilgrimage is Zion (v. 7). This is, of course, Jerusalem and not Mecca.
http//bibleatlas.org/regional/valley_of_rephaim.htm
The wells are interesting, I relate them to https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon%27s_Pools
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/The_pools_of_Solomon_Bethlehem_ca1890.jpg
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Solomonspool3_n.jpg
Compare these images to the zam zam well, which can hardly be imagined to be a pool.
Peace
"There is no direct evidence only indirect. "
The only "indirect" evidence is your references to the bible / old testament, and your own interpretations of them.
""Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.""
There is a very well known well in Mecca in case you didn't know. And logic says that this city in the desert would have been founded around an oasis (i.e. rain filleth the pools) as all towns / cities in deserts are established. But I will give you a better explanation of this, please keep reading.
"The word Baca occurs rarely in the Bible; it is also found in 2 Samuel 523,24 and 1 Chronicles 1414,15 where it identifies a valley in which David fought the Philistines."
Mecca is actually a valley (as your bible books say it should be) https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca.
"In 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles the valley of Baka is a valley full of balsam bushes near the valley of Rephaim. "
In order to prove Mecca wrong, you quote us "2 Samuel" and "1 Chronicles" which both mention the word Baca in reference to "baca-bushes" and not cities. How are they supposed to prove the existence of Becca / mecca being in Jerusalem?
"In 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles the valley of Baka is a valley full of balsam bushes near the valley of Rephaim. "
You say that, while your bible says ... and I quote
"After David has gone to the rear of his enemies, he is to wait by ?the mulberry trees,? or, as now generally understood, baca-shrubs, a plant resembling the balsam. Here a Divine signal was to be given him in ?the sound of a going,? or, rather, of a march. The word is used of the march of the hosts of the Lord in Judges 54; Psalm 687. Then David was to ?bestir himself,? literally, be sharp; he was to act quickly and vigorously."
http//biblehub.com/commentaries/2_samuel/5-24.htm
http//www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/kad/ch1014.htm
In the second link search for the word Baca and see in what reference it is used.
So "baca" in your own reference is the baca-bushes / balsam. Where is it referenced as a valley, city? Another reference from the same page for you
"Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The mulberry trees - Rather, the Bacah-tree, and found abundantly near Mecca. It is very like the balsam-tree, and probably derives its name from the exudation of the sap in drops like tears when a leaf is torn off. Some think the valley of Baca Psalm 846 was so called from this plant growing there."Please note the mention of "Mecca".
When Allah (swt) in the Quran mentions the word "Bakka" he is talking about the "first house of worship" i.e. what it was called at the time when it was established as the first house of worship. The Quran also mentions Mecca, when talking about the time of the prophet and how it is the place of "Masjid-al-haram"
Quran 4824-48-25
"And He it is Who held back their hands from you and your hands from them in the valley of Mecca after He had given you victory over them; and Allah is Seeing what you do. It is they who disbelieved and turned you away from the Sacred Mosque and (turned off) the offering withheld from arriving at its destined place; and were it not for the believing men and the believing women, whom, not having known, you might have trodden down, and thus something hateful might have afflicted you on their account without knowledge-- so that Allah may cause to enter into His mercy whomsoever He pleases; had they been widely separated one from another, We would surely have punished those who disbelieved from among them with a painful punishment."
As for your references to the Psalms, lets look at them. Here is your Psalm 84
"1How lovely is your dwelling place,
Lord Almighty!
2My soul yearns, even faints,
for the courts of the Lord;
my heart and my flesh cry out
for the living God.
3Even the sparrow has found a home,
and the swallow a nest for herself,
where she may have her young?
a place near your altar,
Lord Almighty, my King and my God.
4Blessed are those who dwell in your house;
they are ever praising you. c
5Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
whose hearts are set on pilgrimage.
6As they pass through the Valley of Baka,
they make it a place of springs;
the autumn rains also cover it with pools.d
Footnotes
a 1 In Hebrew texts 841-12 is numbered 842-13.
b 1 Title Probably a musical term
c 4 The Hebrew has Selah (a word of uncertain meaning) here and at the end of verse 8.
d 6 Or blessings"http//biblehub.com/niv/psalms/84.htm
a) The first part where it is said "they are ever praising you." The foot notes tell us that the original word used is "Selah". Now I don't know about you but that Selah sounds like the salah that we Muslims do around the Kaaba in Mecca. The bible interpreters, for some reason, could not find its meaning.
b) Where it says that "whose hearts are set on pilgrimage.". The biggest annual pilgrimages take place in Mecca, making a pilgrimage is actually a part of being a Muslim.
c) Where it says "the autumn rains also cover it with pools.". The footnotes mention that it could actually mean "blessings" instead of the pools of water. And this is not something we Muslims say, it is the Christians that say it.
To me, your own references are proving Baca as being the Arabian / Muslim Mecca.
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quib?ble (kwbl)
intr.v. quib?bled, quib?bling, quib?bles
To argue or find fault over trivial matters or minor concerns; cavil.
n.- A trivial matter or minor concern raised in arguing or finding fault.
https//scontent-ams2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/t31.0-8/11194597_1593686894203343_2825562889758704667_o.jpg
I have no issue with you locating it in Arabia. I don't share your view however.
Is the Quran Arabic?
The Quran is Aramaic Arabic.
Arab means clear, eloquent.
The Arab language is a persian abbasid creation based on the aramaic in the Quran.
The A'arabs (ب means the closest and most visible neighbours.
There was no such thing as arabs in the region, there were Israelites and the ummyyins (non israelite ummy)The Quranic language is historically a language of the northern "Arabs" rather than those in the south.
http//www.lemessieetsonprophete.com/annexes/Kerr_Robert_origine-ecriture-coranique_fichiers/image002.jpg
When the muslim forces attacked the Byzantines and eventualyy captured Jerusalem there was no mention of Arabs, muslims or followers of Islam. They were referred to as Saracen.
Peace
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quib?ble (kwbl)
intr.v. quib?bled, quib?bling, quib?bles
To argue or find fault over trivial matters or minor concerns; cavil.
n.- A trivial matter or minor concern raised in arguing or finding fault.
https//scontent-ams2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/t31.0-8/11194597_1593686894203343_2825562889758704667_o.jpg
Selah (/sil/; Hebrew , also transliterated as selh) is a word used seventy-four times in the Hebrew Bible?seventy-one times in the Psalms and three times in Habakkuk. The meaning of the word is not known, though various interpretations are given below. (It should not be confused with the Hebrew word sela? (Hebrew ‎ which means "rock".)
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selah
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See my edited post.
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This is an old example of the Quranic script of the Quran
http//www.lemessieetsonprophete.com/annexes/Kerr_Robert_origine-ecriture-coranique_fichiers/image004.gif
Compare this to the south-arabian script
http//www.lemessieetsonprophete.com/annexes/Kerr_Robert_origine-ecriture-coranique_fichiers/image006.gif
There is no such thing as a Quran in south-arabian script.
QED
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See my edited post.
This is what you posted in your edited post
I have no issue with you locating it in Arabia. I don't share your view however.
Is the Quran Arabic?
The Quran is Aramaic Arabic.
Arab means clear, eloquent.
The Arab language is a persian abbasid creation based on the aramaic in the Quran.
The A'arabs (ب means the closest and most visible neighbours.
There was no such thing as arabs in the region, there were Israelites and the ummyyins (non israelite ummy)The Quranic language is historically a language of the northern "Arabs" rather than those in the south.
When the muslim forces attacked the Byzantines and eventualyy captured Jerusalem there was no mention of Arabs, muslims or followers of Islam. They were referred to as Saracen.
Peace
I thought this post was about the Bekka and the Mecca mentioned in the Quran and how it could actually be the temple mount and not the Mecca of Arabia.
Looks like you want to move on to the topic of the book "The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran by Christoph Luxenberg".
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This is an old example of the Quranic script of the Quran
http//www.lemessieetsonprophete.com/annexes/Kerr_Robert_origine-ecriture-coranique_fichiers/image004.gif
Compare this to the south-arabian script
http//www.lemessieetsonprophete.com/annexes/Kerr_Robert_origine-ecriture-coranique_fichiers/image006.gif
There is no such thing as a Quran in south-arabian script.
QED
I would compare the scripts very thoroughly if I were a specialist in that field. But thankfully I am not, and neither are you.
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This is what you posted in your edited post
I thought this post was about the Bekka and the Mecca mentioned in the Quran and how it could actually be the temple mount and not the Mecca of Arabia.
Looks like you want to move on to the topic of the book "The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran by Christoph Luxenberg".
Well that has been a side theme in this thread as well, both have been mentioned before in earlier posts as kind of connected as part of making more sense of the Jerusalem qiblah thing at times it seems.
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You don't need to be an expert to know there is no ancient version of the Quran in south-arabian script. I'm not a follower of Luxenberg. But he raised some very relevant issues.
The language used in Quran is important to geolocating it. All the indicators point to Jordan/Palestine/Jerusalem rather than Mecca. Including the language, alphabet and script. The aramaic alphabet was simply not used in southern-arabia.
Luxenberg abused this argument to render the Quran as a collection of borrowed Jewish and Christian tales. Trying to disprove its authenticity. It's needless to say Luxenberg does not believe in the One God and does not accept Muhammad as a messenger.
Peace
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Well that has been a side theme in this thread as well, both have been mentioned before in earlier posts as kind of connected as part of making more sense of the Jerusalem qiblah thing at times it seems.
How does it make sense to connect Bekka with Jerusalum when their own interpreters of the bible clearly say that the Baca in the bible is reference to a bush that actually grows in "Mecca"?
If people want to totally re-interpret the whole arabian language and its history to fulfill their whims and desires over certain issues, then that obviously is something I cannot help them with.
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You don't need to be an expert to know there is no ancient version of the Quran in south-arabian script. I'm not a follower of Luxenberg. But he raised some very relevant issues.
The language used in Quran is important to geolocating it. All the indicators point to Jordan/Palestine/Jerusalem rather than Mecca. Including the language, alphabet and script. The aramaic alphabet was simply not used in southern-arabia.
Luxenberg abused this argument to render the Quran as a collection of borrowed Jewish and Christian tales. Trying to disprove its authenticity. It's needless to say Luxenberg does not believe in the One God and does not accept Muhammad as a messenger.
Peace
"You don't need to be an expert to know there is no ancient version of the Quran in south-arabian script. "
I don't know about you but this version of the Quran that (as per the actual experts in the field) could actually be dated to the time of the Prophet seems to have no such issues that you want it to have.
http//www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/22/oldest-quran-fragments-found-at-birmingham-university
And this was only found last month. Who knows how much else we will discover. But the point for you to ponder is that this version does not differ with our version of the Quran.
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Allat, Al Uzza, Manat.
These three goddesses, the daughters of Allah, are well documented in the Jordanian-Syrian epigraphy. However we do not find any trace in the Hijaz.
Al-Lat (Al-ilahat = "The Goddess" was a goddess known Thamoud?ens, Palmyr?ens and Nabataeans. It corresponded to Ham'llat in Safa?tes and Herodotus knew as the Alilat.
Al-'Uzza (Alizat = "Powerful" was a goddess known Nabataeans, D?danites and Lihyanites.
Manat (Maniya = "Destiny" corresponded to the goddess of the Nabataeans and Manawat Palmyriens.
Their father Allah (Al-Ilah = "the god" corresponded to Ilah god of the Nabataeans, safa?te, Thamoud?ens and Lihyanites, the god of the Aramaeans He and El god of the Canaanites.
All these deities take us north of Arabia and not in the Hejaz.Peace