Is Surah al-M??idah contradicting itself?
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A good example of this are the Judeo-Christians living in Qumran who left behind the famous dead sea scrolls. Are they jewish? Are they christian? They are both. Yet they are different from both.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
Qoran is talking about "certain Jews and Christians" those who mock and ridicule the believers. It does not matter what denomination they are!!!
I do not see where or what you are getting at?
You are going too deep for something straight forward and simple.
There is no contradiction in the verses you are quoting in this thread.
These "certain Jews and Christians" are the ones who received the scripture before the believers at the time of the prophet. If they were different denominations, Qoran did not give such details except to say "those who mock and ridicule the believers" whatever denomination they were. i.e the denominations are irrelevant!!
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Peace runninglikezebras.
Qoran is talking about "certain Jews and Christians" those who mock and ridicule the believers. It does not matter what denomination they are!!!
I do not see where or what you are getting at?
You are going too deep for something straight forward and simple.
There is no contradiction in the verses you are quoting in this thread.
These "certain Jews and Christians" are the ones who received the scripture before the believers at the time of the prophet. If they were different denominations, Qoran did not give such details except to say "those who mock and ridicule the believers" whatever denomination they were. i.e the denominations are irrelevant!!
GOD bless you.
PeaceThe demoninations are very relevant. You can't say eg Jews and Christians - including Judeo-Nazarenes - are those who mock and ridicule the believers. Because it would contradict with Quran saying the Judeo-Nazarenes are the closest to the believers.
But I agree the verse you quoted is irrelevant to understanding the People of the Book. My OP is dealing with identifying the nasara and judaics as mentioned in Quran and exposing verses that have been obviously tampered with (additions of "and the nazarenes" almost always break the rythm/cantillation of the verses in which they were used and make Quran self contradict within one surah even).
Is this not a contradiction in sura 5 (not to mention historically incorrect in 551)?
?O you who have believed! Do not take the Jews and the nas?r? as allies they are allies of one another? (551)
You will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say We are nas?r?? (582)Is this not a contradiction?
?Those who believed, those who follow the Jewish , Nazarenes or Sabeans, whoever believed in God... will have their reward? (surah 262 parall. 569).
?Those who have believed, and those who follow the Jewish and the Sabeans and the Nazarenes, the Magians and those who associated with God, God will judge between them on the day of Judgment? (Surah 2217).I strongly advise the reader to listen to the recitation of those verses using "and nasara" and pay attention to the cantillation and rythm.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
I have explained why I do not find a contradiction, by looking at the context including 557.
I was trying to to help by bringing it to your attention.
I will leave it there.
Thank you for the conversation.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace runninglikezebras.
I have explained why I do not find a contradiction, by looking at the context including 557.
I was trying to to help by bringing it to your attention.
I will leave it there.
Thank you for the conversation.GOD bless you.
Peace.I understand what you are saying but I do not find this resolving the contradiction
?O you who have believed! Do not take the Jews and the nas?r? as allies they are allies of one another? (551)
=> This verse is not making exceptions about making allies with the Jews and the nasara. There is no room for exception. Are you saying if they don't mock you, you can take them as allies?
You will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say We are nas?r?? (582)
=> This doesn't make any exceptions either. It only states the nasara are closest in faith to the believers. Adding your verse to it makes it irrational then it would say, they are closest in belief but are capable of mocking you still. This verse identifies the nasara as the least likely candidates to be mocking believers. Wouldn't you agree?
Once you remove the cantillation/ryhtm breaking "and nasara in 551 it all falls into place. The Jews are only loyal to themselves. The Nasara are the closest to the believers spiritually.
Peace
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I think it's a very troublesome contradiction. And it's very troublesome to understand Quran has been tampered with.
I appreciate the contribution goodlogic but by any logical standards it does not resolve the contradiction. A verse commanding the believers not to forge an alliance with a specific group leaves no room for exemption based on whether or not they would be mocking believers.
If it was a military command, the modern day result of ignoring such an order and still taking alliances with them would be dealt with court martially. The forbidden group being respectful towards yourself will be no argument.
In motorcycle clubs similar rules exist when they say no contact with such and such MC, the punishment for ignoring that command is quite severe. Even if they were respectful to the MC involved.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras,
I think it's a very troublesome contradiction. And it's very troublesome to understand Quran has been tampered with.
Thank you for bringing to attention yet another contradiction in the current text of al-quran which is an addition to the growing list of contradictions that have been discovered and discussed on this forum by other posters and myself in the past.
This adds to my growing suspicion that the current text of al-quran might contain some falsehoods. I am getting more and more convinced that the current text of al-quran (CTQ) is not identical to the original text of al-quran (OTQ). It seems quite a few additions/deletions/omissions were made to and from the OTQ soon after death of Muhammad the messenger, resulting in CTQ. The pagans/negative entities did to al-quran soon after Muhammad what they did to torah and injil in the past soon after Musa and Yashuwa/Isa for their own nefarious agenda of misguiding humanity.
Even latest archeological evidence supports this conclusion of tampering, for example Sanaa palimpsest parchments. The deleted inferior text of the Sanaa palimpsests is significantly different from the later superior text and the CTQ. Many words were deleted from and added to the inferior text resulting in the superior text which is quite close to CTQ.
Out of approximately 15,000 Sanaa parchments discovered belonging to more than 900 Quran copies, only 40 folios were studied in depth by independent linguistic experts which started to reveal evidence of tampering with OTQ. Subsequently Yemeni government placed all of the parchments under lock and key and is currently not allowing any further in depth study by independent linguistic experts to prevent the complete truth from getting exposed.
I am eagerly awaiting discovery of the complete OTQ for confirmation of this suspected tampering, but not too optimistic about it, because I am pretty sure "the ones in power" will not allow that discovery to become public knowledge or will prevent public access to it just like in the case of Sanaa parchments.
May the infinite creator guide us to the truth.
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Peace runninglikezebras,
Thank you for bringing to attention yet another contradiction in the current text of al-quran which is an addition to the long list of contradictions that have been discovered and discussed on this forum by other posters and myself in the past.
This adds to my growing suspicion that the current text of al-quran might contain some falsehoods. I am getting more and more convinced that the current text of al-quran (CTQ) is not identical to the original text of al-quran (OTQ). It seems quite a few additions/deletions/omissions were made to the OTQ soon after death of Muhammad the messenger, resulting in CTQ. The pagans/negative entities did to al-quran soon after Muhammad what they did to torah and injil in the past soon after Musa and Yashuwa/Isa for their own nefarious agenda of misguiding humanity.
Even latest archeological evidence supports this conclusion of tampering, for example Sanaa palimpsest parchments. The deleted inferior text of the Sanaa palimpsests is significantly different from the later superior text and the CTQ. Many words were deleted from and added to the inferior text resulting in the superior text which is quite close to CTQ.
Out of 15,000 Sanaa parchments discovered, only 40 folios were studied in depth by independent linguistic experts which started to reveal evidence of tampering with OTQ. Subsequently Yemeni government placed all of the parchments under lock and key and is currently not allowing any further in depth study by independent linguistic experts to prevent the complete truth from getting exposed.
I am eagerly awaiting discovery of the complete OTQ for confirmation of this suspected tampering, but not too optimistic about it, because I am pretty sure "the ones in power" will not allow that discovery to become public knowledge or will prevent public access to it just like in the case of Sanaa parchments.
May the infinite creator guide us to the truth.
You may find some pointers in this thread helping you in your research the OP points out the origins of Islam are to be found in the Judeo-Nazarene tradition. This is confirmed in Quran
"You will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say We are nas?r?? (582)"
Examples of this proto-islamic faith can be found in the writings found in the Qumran scrolls. At the time the Qumran scrolls were written, there were large groups of Judeo-christians who willingly abandoned Jerusalem. From their perspective Temple Mount was controlled by the unrighteous pharisees and judaics who rejected Jesus. In their revolt against the pharisees they turned to an isolated life in remote places in the desert, such as Qumran and the Syrian desert.
Now where did we hear this before?
Will say the foolish ones from the people the people, "What (has) turned them from their qibla which they were used to on it?"
This description is amazingly compatible with the Judeo-Nazarene groups who left Jerusalem such as those in Qumran.
Peace
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Peace Truthseeker.
So you find contradictions in Qoran, is itbecause you do not believe it is the original,or you have not studied it or you do not understand it properly or...?
Do you believe first then try to find evidence,or do you look for evidence then believe?
Do you believe part of the Qoran is original? Which part/s do you believe is/are from GOD?
What do these verses tell you?Have they been tampered with?
We have cited in this Qoran (all kinds of examples), that they may take heed. But it only augments their aversion.
We thus revealed it, an Arabic Qoran, and we cited in it all kinds of prophecies, that they may be saved, or it may cause them to take heed.
God thus explains the revelations for you. God is Omniscient, Wise.
Whatever argument they come up with, we provide you with the truth, and a better understanding.
Is it not enough of a miracle that we sent down to you this book, being recited to them? This is indeed a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.
Thus, we have cited for the people in this Quran all kinds of examples. Yet, no matter what kind of proof you present to the disbelievers, they say, "You are falsifiers."
As for those who constantly challenge our revelations, they have incurred a retribution of painful humiliation.
It is evident to those who are blessed with knowledge that this revelation from your Lord to you is the truth, and that it guides to the path of the Almighty, the Most Praiseworthy.
Why do they not study the Quran carefully? Do they have locks on their minds?
Do not move your tongue to hasten it. It is we who will collect it into Quran. Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Qoran. Then it is we who will explain it.
How does GOD protect HIS words? What about the latest generations,are they going to receive only part of it?How are they going to find the original?
I am just curious and want to know your thinking.
Thanks in advance.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Truthseeker.
So you find contradictions in Qoran, is itbecause you do not believe it is the original,or you have not studied it or you do not understand it properly or...?
Do you believe first then try to find evidence,or do you look for evidence then believe?
Do you believe part of the Qoran is original? Which part/s do you believe is/are from GOD?
What do these verses tell you?Have they been tampered with?
We have cited in this Qoran (all kinds of examples), that they may take heed. But it only augments their aversion.
We thus revealed it, an Arabic Qoran, and we cited in it all kinds of prophecies, that they may be saved, or it may cause them to take heed.
God thus explains the revelations for you. God is Omniscient, Wise.
Whatever argument they come up with, we provide you with the truth, and a better understanding.
Is it not enough of a miracle that we sent down to you this book, being recited to them? This is indeed a mercy and a reminder for people who believe.
Thus, we have cited for the people in this Quran all kinds of examples. Yet, no matter what kind of proof you present to the disbelievers, they say, "You are falsifiers."
As for those who constantly challenge our revelations, they have incurred a retribution of painful humiliation.
It is evident to those who are blessed with knowledge that this revelation from your Lord to you is the truth, and that it guides to the path of the Almighty, the Most Praiseworthy.
Why do they not study the Quran carefully? Do they have locks on their minds?
Do not move your tongue to hasten it. It is we who will collect it into Quran. Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Qoran. Then it is we who will explain it.
How does GOD protect HIS words? What about the latest generations,are they going to receive only part of it?How are they going to find the original?
I am just curious and want to know your thinking.
Thanks in advance.
GOD bless you.
Peace.The Quran is protected by God even in written form. When the Quran gets altered by human authors, the Quranic structure is such that it will lead verses to contradict and/or break the cantillation/rythm of the verses.
This protective structure is inherent to the Qurans message. The narration is not chronological. Some topics stop in one sura and only reappear in another. Other verses are repeated with slightly different phrasing. In this way God makes most evident who is trying to alter the words of the Qurans message.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras,
The Quran is protected by God even in written form. When the Quran gets altered by human authors, the Quranic structure is such that it will lead verses to contradict and/or break the cantillation/rythm of the verses.
This protective structure is inherent to the Qurans message. The narration is not chronological. Some topics stop in one sura and only reappear in another. Other verses are repeated with slightly different phrasing. In this way God makes most evident who is trying to alter the words of the Qurans message.
bravo bravo bravo
I couldn't have said it any better!
Additionally, good logic's post has the logical fallacy of CIRCULAR REASONING brickwall
Even al-quran doesn't tell us to believe something as the truth JUST BECAUSE IT SAYS SO.
It asks us to use our mind and reasoning (multiple verses).
It asks us to use knowledge for verification (1736)
MOST IMPORTANTLY it tells us that the truth will be verifiable by external real world evidence (4153)
When one uses these weapons, one can distinguish the truth from any falsehoods that have crept in, and the falsehoods will stand out like a sore thumb.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
You said
When the Quran gets altered by human authors, the Quranic structure is such that it will lead verses to contradict and/or break the cantillation/rythm of the verses.
Which parts/verses has this alteration affected? How can you be sure? Have you studied all Qoran and found what has been altered?
What evidence have you that these parts/verses have been altered?
Does GOD play any part still ,how?
GOD bless you.
Peace -
From the OP
Before looking at it, we must make this remark, formulated by Antoine Moussali Koranic expressions like and/or nas?r? are all interpolations (perceptible to the ear) you find them in surahs 2111 (?or nas?r??); 2113 (followed by ?and the nas?r? say the Jews have nothing to stand on?);2120 (and the nas?r??); 2135 (or nas?r?); 2140 (or nas?r?); and 518 (?and nas?r??). In verse 2135, the addition of ?or nas?r?? after ?be Jews? is especially devoid of logic it implies that the ?sons of Abraham? recommend that people be either ?Jews or Christians?.
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This adds to my growing suspicion that the current text of al-quran he original text of al-quran
Peace truthseeker11, runninglikezebras your suspicions may be based on your
lack of understanding, we should avoid suspicion also state your hypothesis as conjecture
and not as facts.O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible) for suspicion in some
cases is a sin And spy not on each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to
eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah For Allah is
Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.God bless
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Peace runninglikezebras.
Are you providing that quote as evidence?
Are the verses in it the only ones altered?
Please explain.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace truthseeker11, runninglikezebras your suspicions may be based on your
lack of understanding, we should avoid suspicion also state your hypothesis as conjecture
and not as facts.O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible) for suspicion in some
cases is a sin And spy not on each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to
eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah For Allah is
Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.God bless
I see. Well then ... oh all-knowing Hawk, superior in knowledge and in faith it seems, do tell us how do you find no contradiction in
?O you who have believed! Do not take the Jews and the nas?r? as allies they are allies of one another? (551)
You will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say We are nas?r?? (582)And please also do tell us, oh wise one, how one should make sense from Abraham saying be either ?Jews or Christians? in 2135
You are aware christians even nasara is an anachronism for abrahams time?
It would be similar to Abraham Lincoln talking about iphones.
Peace
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I see. Well then ... oh all-knowing Hawk, superior in knowledge and in faith it seems, do tell us how do you find no
I am not superior in knowledge or faith to you, please re-read the post.
Seek to understand, suspend suspicion, do the research before reaching
your conclusions.oh all-knowing Hawk,
Avoid shirk even in jest, no one is all knowing but Allah.
God bless
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Peace runninglikezebras.
You said
how one should make sense from Abraham saying be either ?Jews or Christians? in 2135
Where did Abraham say that? Certainly not in 2135!! 9 They are "certain Jews and Christians" like I explained before.)
2135
They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."This is clarifying " TrueIslam"-Monotheism- is the only true religion since Abraham.
Again there is no contradiction, only bad understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I am not superior in knowledge or faith to you, please re-read the post.
Seek to understand, suspend suspicion, do the research before reaching
your conclusions.Avoid shirk even in jest, no one is all knowing but Allah.
God bless
What makes you assume I haven't researched this properly? If you think my thesis is weak, the burden is upon you to provide counter evidence. So far you have been only labeling my thesis as 'suspicion' without providing any antithesis.
It seems to me you are the one who has some research to do.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
You said
how one should make sense from Abraham saying be either ?Jews or Christians? in 2135
Where did Abraham say that? Certainly not in 2135!! 9 They are "certain Jews and Christians" like I explained before.)
2135
They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."This is clarifying " TrueIslam"-Monotheism- is the only true religion since Abraham.
Again there is no contradiction, only bad understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Do you understand what an anachronism is goodlogic? Nasara is a religious group that only existed after Jesus and the destruction of the Temple.
No contemporary of Abraham would use the word nasara. It's absolute proof of a forgery/text-manipulation. Next to that it's completely irrational.
Furthermore as I posted in the OP
This verse acquires rich meaning, and should be compared to 367, when also rid of ?and not a nasr?n??
?Abraham was not a Jew but he was a han?f who submitted (han?fan musliman)? (367).Rendering the original to
?They (the sons of Abraham, cf. 2133) say Be Jews, you will be guided. Say Rather the religion (millah) of Abraham, as han?f-s (han?fan)? (2135).
The two verses say that Abraham was not a Jew since he was himself the father of the Jews, and that those, relying on their election, did not remain faithful to the religion of their forefather who submitted to God (muslim). The same idea is present in the gospels (for example in Mt 39 and Lk 38 ), but here the affirmation is quite ironic as Abraham is presented as model of the han?f. To grasp the scope of the anti-Jewish polemic pervasive in the Koran but antedating its written form, we need to know that in the Talmud-s, the term hanef means herectic, an equivalent of m?n . By presenting Abraham as a kind of ?heretic who submitted to God?, Jacqueline Genot (+ 2004) explained, those two verses turn back against Judaism the Judaic condemnation of those they themselves deem heretic ? in particular those whom patristic tradition calls the Nazarenes if we are heretics, they say, then Abraham was heretic before us you are the unfaithful heretics!
Peace