Is Surah al-M??idah contradicting itself?
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Peace runninglikezebras.
You said
When the Quran gets altered by human authors, the Quranic structure is such that it will lead verses to contradict and/or break the cantillation/rythm of the verses.
Which parts/verses has this alteration affected? How can you be sure? Have you studied all Qoran and found what has been altered?
What evidence have you that these parts/verses have been altered?
Does GOD play any part still ,how?
GOD bless you.
Peace -
From the OP
Before looking at it, we must make this remark, formulated by Antoine Moussali Koranic expressions like and/or nas?r? are all interpolations (perceptible to the ear) you find them in surahs 2111 (?or nas?r??); 2113 (followed by ?and the nas?r? say the Jews have nothing to stand on?);2120 (and the nas?r??); 2135 (or nas?r?); 2140 (or nas?r?); and 518 (?and nas?r??). In verse 2135, the addition of ?or nas?r?? after ?be Jews? is especially devoid of logic it implies that the ?sons of Abraham? recommend that people be either ?Jews or Christians?.
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This adds to my growing suspicion that the current text of al-quran he original text of al-quran
Peace truthseeker11, runninglikezebras your suspicions may be based on your
lack of understanding, we should avoid suspicion also state your hypothesis as conjecture
and not as facts.O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible) for suspicion in some
cases is a sin And spy not on each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to
eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah For Allah is
Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.God bless
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Peace runninglikezebras.
Are you providing that quote as evidence?
Are the verses in it the only ones altered?
Please explain.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace truthseeker11, runninglikezebras your suspicions may be based on your
lack of understanding, we should avoid suspicion also state your hypothesis as conjecture
and not as facts.O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible) for suspicion in some
cases is a sin And spy not on each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to
eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah For Allah is
Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.God bless
I see. Well then ... oh all-knowing Hawk, superior in knowledge and in faith it seems, do tell us how do you find no contradiction in
?O you who have believed! Do not take the Jews and the nas?r? as allies they are allies of one another? (551)
You will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say We are nas?r?? (582)And please also do tell us, oh wise one, how one should make sense from Abraham saying be either ?Jews or Christians? in 2135
You are aware christians even nasara is an anachronism for abrahams time?
It would be similar to Abraham Lincoln talking about iphones.
Peace
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I see. Well then ... oh all-knowing Hawk, superior in knowledge and in faith it seems, do tell us how do you find no
I am not superior in knowledge or faith to you, please re-read the post.
Seek to understand, suspend suspicion, do the research before reaching
your conclusions.oh all-knowing Hawk,
Avoid shirk even in jest, no one is all knowing but Allah.
God bless
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Peace runninglikezebras.
You said
how one should make sense from Abraham saying be either ?Jews or Christians? in 2135
Where did Abraham say that? Certainly not in 2135!! 9 They are "certain Jews and Christians" like I explained before.)
2135
They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."This is clarifying " TrueIslam"-Monotheism- is the only true religion since Abraham.
Again there is no contradiction, only bad understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I am not superior in knowledge or faith to you, please re-read the post.
Seek to understand, suspend suspicion, do the research before reaching
your conclusions.Avoid shirk even in jest, no one is all knowing but Allah.
God bless
What makes you assume I haven't researched this properly? If you think my thesis is weak, the burden is upon you to provide counter evidence. So far you have been only labeling my thesis as 'suspicion' without providing any antithesis.
It seems to me you are the one who has some research to do.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
You said
how one should make sense from Abraham saying be either ?Jews or Christians? in 2135
Where did Abraham say that? Certainly not in 2135!! 9 They are "certain Jews and Christians" like I explained before.)
2135
They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."This is clarifying " TrueIslam"-Monotheism- is the only true religion since Abraham.
Again there is no contradiction, only bad understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Do you understand what an anachronism is goodlogic? Nasara is a religious group that only existed after Jesus and the destruction of the Temple.
No contemporary of Abraham would use the word nasara. It's absolute proof of a forgery/text-manipulation. Next to that it's completely irrational.
Furthermore as I posted in the OP
This verse acquires rich meaning, and should be compared to 367, when also rid of ?and not a nasr?n??
?Abraham was not a Jew but he was a han?f who submitted (han?fan musliman)? (367).Rendering the original to
?They (the sons of Abraham, cf. 2133) say Be Jews, you will be guided. Say Rather the religion (millah) of Abraham, as han?f-s (han?fan)? (2135).
The two verses say that Abraham was not a Jew since he was himself the father of the Jews, and that those, relying on their election, did not remain faithful to the religion of their forefather who submitted to God (muslim). The same idea is present in the gospels (for example in Mt 39 and Lk 38 ), but here the affirmation is quite ironic as Abraham is presented as model of the han?f. To grasp the scope of the anti-Jewish polemic pervasive in the Koran but antedating its written form, we need to know that in the Talmud-s, the term hanef means herectic, an equivalent of m?n . By presenting Abraham as a kind of ?heretic who submitted to God?, Jacqueline Genot (+ 2004) explained, those two verses turn back against Judaism the Judaic condemnation of those they themselves deem heretic ? in particular those whom patristic tradition calls the Nazarenes if we are heretics, they say, then Abraham was heretic before us you are the unfaithful heretics!
Peace
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It would be naive to think that the Koranic text was only superficially manipulated with a few additions here and there, as we have seen with the term nas?r?. Generations of ?redesigners? have made changes to the text at the beginning of the 8th century, governor Hajjaj was forced to recall the existing versions in circulation to burn them and substitute new ones ? this is told by Islamic traditions. It is impossible to examine such a complex history in a few pages a long, exacting exegetical task lies ahead of us to fully disclose them, which will require a multi-disciplined collaborative effort, in the fields of linguistics, history, geography, archeology, Judaic and Syriac studies, and even theology because of the necessity of determining the objectives pursued by a specific human group, along with its representation of God and of the future.
Surahs were designed to convince they were composed in a perfectly clear and coherent oral style. It was the successive manipulations that made them often obscure and incoherent, to the point that they are no longer truly read one looks at the text not in term of what is written but in terms of the Islamic dogma and the more recent commentaries.
In the meantime, we have to at least discern keys of comprehension. One of them was the object of this article the distinction between Yah?d and Nazarenes made by the Koran in the ?tent of the Book?, i.e. among the ?sons of Israel? (also called ?sons of Abraham? in the Koran) who all were the legitimate heirs of the Book. Another key consists in discovering how the Koran used to designate Christianity (accused of associating, shirk) and how the term ?associators? was employed in a dialectical parallelism also denouncing the Yah?d ? this form of dialectic would deserve more consideration than we can give it here. Still another fundamental key comes from the discovery of the community designated by the term nas?r? the Nazarenes. These keys and others bring the text into contact with factual parts of history, of which the text seems so devoid. Such contact points exist in the Koranic text, but it will take years of research to fully highlight them. -
Peace runninglikezebras.
Again what do you mean by
No contemporary of Abraham would use the word nasara. It's absolute proof of a forgery/text-manipulation.
2;135 was said after Abraham, by "certain Jews and Christians" to counter the believers!!! Obviously both Judaism and Christianity both existed when it was said!!! The prophet and his believers came after them both?
The following verse clarifies that for you
2136
Say, "We believe in God, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are Muslimeen."GOD bless you.
Peace. -
What makes you assume I haven't researched this properly? If you think my thesis is weak, the burden is upon you to provide counter evidence. So far you have been only labeling my thesis as 'suspicion' without providing any antithesis.
It seems to me you are the one who has some research to do.
Peace
Peace runninglikezebras, yes I/we have research to do, but when you
arrive at a contradiction as you have done then it is more than likely
a misunderstanding on your part.God bless
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Peace runninglikezebras.
Again what do you mean by
No contemporary of Abraham would use the word nasara. It's absolute proof of a forgery/text-manipulation.
2;135 was said after Abraham, by "certain Jews and Christians" to counter the believers!!! Obviously both Judaism and Christianity both existed when it was said!!! The prophet and his believers came after them both?
The following verse clarifies that for you
2136
Say, "We believe in God, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are Muslimeen."GOD bless you.
Peace.2136 is validating the believers follow the progeny of Abraham. Again it does not resolve the contradiction.
?O you who have believed! Do not take the Jews and the nas?r? as allies they are allies of one another? (551)
=> forbids taking Jews and nasara as allies
You will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say We are nas?r?? (582)
=> calls the nasara the closest in affection to the believers
So summarized
2135 contradicts 582 - nasara rejected by the believers, but rebutted by saying we follow the religion (millah) of Abraham, as han?f-s (han?fan) in 2135, praised as closest to the believers in 582; implying nasara would be following millah Abraham and at the same time not following Millat Abraham as hanifs
551 contradicts 582 - nasara not to be taken as allies <-> nasara being closest to the believersRemove the 'and nasara' and it will start making sense.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras, yes I/we have research to do, but when you
arrive at a contradiction as you have done then it is more than likely
a misunderstanding on your part.God bless
You keep assuming I am misunderstanding without providing even one solid piece of argument proving my understanding is wrong.
As such, what you have said so far hawk99 is of zero added value to me.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras,truthseeker.
Lots of questions arise if you believe in a book ,then claim some of it is altered.
1- How do you know which part?
2- How can you be sure the other parts are not altered?
3- Do you believe the verse that says "there is no contradiction" in it? Which parts?
4- Does evidence needs to be provided for both ,what is true and what has been altered?
5-Can you use any verses from it as evidence? Well they may not be original, unless you provided evidence to the contrary?
And so on... Basically it is a big problem . All the basis of your belief are wrecked?
Why am I saying this to you? Because it is important to be 100% sure.
Truthseeker has mentioned 1736. He is right to do soFor example I have a verifiable proof, that the Qoran, the Final Testament,( also which mushaf) is the unaltered word of God, we have entered a new era in religion. Verse 1736 quoted above mandates, that we use our hearing , eyesight and brain to verify all information, including the miracle of the Qoran by ourselves,all the letters,words verses surahs that are interlocked and can be verified as such.
This new era also mandates that we seek proof for any religious law or practice dictated upon us by such verification.. What makes Islam so easy, is the proof, we now have, that the Qoran is the unaltered and complete word of God. Then once we are certain we become true Muslims to God, we have to accept God's assertion in the Qoran; that the Qoran is complete, fully detailed and the only source of religious law.
But of course each one has their own proofs. Like Qoran says proofs are for believers.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
The contradiction is really simple goodlogic and I don't feel you have resolved it.
The nasara are closest in the religion of abraham to the believers. Contrary to the Jews.
Yet not to be taken as allies, together with the Jews
The nasara faith is denied, together with the Jews, as being guided and part of the religion of abraham in 2135.
How do you resolve this?
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You keep assuming I am misunderstanding without providing even one solid piece of argument proving my understanding is wrong.
As such, what you have said so far hawk99 is of zero added value to me.
Peace
Peace runninglikezebras you are so entrenched in what you believe
it does not matter what anyone says As such, what you have said
so far in your posts runninglikezebras is of zero added value to me.God bless
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) Peace runninglikezebras you are so entrenched in what you believe
it does not matter what anyone says As such, what you have said
so far in your posts runninglikezebras is of zero added value to me.God bless
Well I will leave it to the reader to establish how much substantial arguments you have provided so far that are different from 'just assuming I'm wrong'. You remind me of some imams when confronted with uneasy questions.
Peace
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Another hot topic some seem to avoid, mentioned in the OP is, where is your historical evidence Jewish and Christians EVER were allies?
At the the time of Qurans revelation they were full blown enemies by all accounts.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
This is my understanding
Some nasara are closest to the religion of abraham therefore to the believers. Contrary to some Jews( who deviated).
some other nasara are not to be taken as allies, together with some other Jews ( Those who mock and ridicule the believers)
The nasara faith is denied, together with the Jews,( when they are divisive) as being guided and they are not part of the religion of abraham in 2135. ( Because there has only ever been one religion,the religion of Abraham-True submission and loyalty to GOD Alone.i.e True Islam)
How do you resolve this?See above.
GOD bless you.
Peace.