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  4. Is Jesus announced by Mohammed in the Quran?

Is Jesus announced by Mohammed in the Quran?

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Questions/Comments on the Quran
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  • R Offline
    R Offline
    runninglikezebras
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    Surah As-saff (the rank, battle array) verse 6 / Q. 616

    Following the Islamic logic of ? successive revelations ?, according to which the Christian religion came to supplant the Hebrew one, and Islam came to replace both, it would seem appropriate that Jesus announced the Messenger of the third and ultimate religion, whose name is Muhammad. There is only one problem in the Gospel, except for the false prophets who are expected to rise after him, Jesus does not announce anyone resembling Muhammad.

    Making the Paraclete coincide with Muhammad

    Yet, it is expected that Jesus must have done so. And behold, in Chapter 14 of Saint John?s gospel, Jesus announces a Paraclete who is to come. This Paraclete then must have something to do with Muhammad in one way or another; and the Koranic text must be saying that Jesus announced something related to both that Paraclete and Islam?s ? Prophet ?. This is what is happening in the middle of verse 6 of surah 61, which reads

    ?When Jesus, the son of Mary, said O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of God to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad.
    But when he came to them with clear signs, they said This is obvious sorcery.? (Q. 616).

    Ahmad obviously is a surrogate for Mu-hammad, in a sentence that thus seems less unlikely than if Jesus was coldly said to have announced Muhammad. One just has to say that the Paraclete coincides with Ahmad.

    In the Greek version of John?s gospel, the word Parakl?tos, meaning he who speaks for another, designates an advocate intervening on behalf of his client during a trial. This legal term entered the Aramaic langage in the form of Paraqlita with a slightly altered meaning, as the Parthian and Semitic world was governed by norms different tthan that of the Greco-Roman ones then, people testifying in person presented their own case in court, but could be assisted discreetly by someone who would whisper in his ears what had to be said. This role of Paraqlita?whisperer is perceptible in the Johannine Gospel, but offers no possible approximation with Muhammad.

    But we could almost forget the vivid imagination of the Arabic speaking apologists in the service of the Caliphs. Transcribed in the Arabic fashion (leaving out vowels), the Greek word parakl?tos becomes brklts (read biriklutos), and is the rough written equivalent of another Greek-turned-Arabic term p?riklutos, whose meaning is renowned, therefore praised. If mu-hammad could somehow be made to signify ? he who is praised ? (or ? in whom praise is given ?), within the strict parameters of Arabic apologetics (based on a false reading), one could say that Jesus announced Ahmad, the praised one, in other words the ? Prophet of Islam ?. All the authors had to do was to give the root ? hmd ? the meaning of praising.

    In the Bible and in Aramaic (as well as in the Koran read in its co-text), ? hmd ? means to desire (and, in the passive voice, the root actually means to please). To say praise, there exist several other roots in Arabic (atna, madaha and mostly sabbaha). However, the authorities imposed a shift on the meaning of the word, from be desired to be praised. Now Muhammad-ahmad fits the p?riklutos-parakl?tos-paraclete, and there you are!

    Making Jesus announce Ahmad in the Koran

    Of course, the trick can only function in Arabic this is what we call an ? internal apologetic device ?, destined to a Muslim Arabic public. The final step has the same public in mind if the Gospel according to Saint John announced Muhammad, and if the Koran is divinely inspired, the latter then has to confirm what the Gospel is supposed to mean somewhere in the Koran, Jesus must necessarily announce Muhammad (or its equivalent Ahmad). Where does this find a place?

    A proof of the hesitations felt by the craftsmen of the Koran is furnished by the Ubayy Ibn Ka?ab version. Although none of its manuscript copies managed to escape the systematic destructions of the 7th and 8th Centuries documents ordered by the Islamic authorities, we know how it rendered verse 6 of surah 61, thanks to surviving quotations of that earlier version ? that's the one that interests us. Let us compare the verse according to the usual Koran (in green) with that of the Ubayy version (in red), while the common text to both versions will be highlighted in blue

    When Jesus, the son of Mary, said ?O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of God to you,

    | Confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad.? But when he came to them with clear signs,
    | And I announce to you a prophet (nabiy) whose community (umma) will be the last community and by which God will put a seal on prophets (nabiy?n) and messengers (rusul)?,

    They said this is obvious sorcery!?

    It is plain that, according to the Koran of Ubbay, instead of Ahmad, Jesus announces a prophet and a future community; he also affirms that a ? seal ? will be given to ? prophets and messengers ?, something we find again in verse 40 of surah 33 (common version). As a matter of fact, neither version of verse 616 is more authentic than the other originally, the verse probably consisted in this one sentence (which fits the co-text perfectly)

    ?When Jesus, the son of Mary, said O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of God to you, they said this is obvious sorcery!? (Q. 616).

    Frank van der Velden?s objection

    Frank van der Velden objected that, thus shortened, verse 6 would be too short in comparison with verse 5, which presents a kind of parallel

    ?When Moses said to his people O my people, why do you harm me while you certainly know that I am the messenger of God to you? And when they deviated, God caused their hearts to deviate. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people? (Q. 615).

    We can observe that this verse also is short and the one before it even shorter

    ?Indeed, God loves those who go so far as to kill (q?tala) in His cause in a row as though they are a structure joined firmly? (Koran 614).

    This said, it is reasonable to assume that the two versions of the middle part of verse 6 mentioned above came to replace a development around a theme that the Koran had banned the (material) return of the Messiah Jesus. On a hypothetical basis, the original middle part may be reconstituted with the help of some elements of the co-text

    ?When Jesus, the son of Mary, said O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of God to you,

    and I am justified according to the Torah in your hands which announced me as the Messiah by whom God will subject the earth".
    But a portion of them did not believe (kafara), and

    they said this is obvious sorcery!? (Q. 616).

    The objection crumbles.

    In conclusion

    Once reconstituted according to its short version or with a middle part, verse Q. 616 presents plain coherence again with the co-text, and we clearly see how the legend based logic propping up Islamic theology crept into modify this verse.

    It can therefore be asserted that the presence of a promise of Ahmad-Muhammad made by Jesus in the Koranic text displays all the characteristics of an interpolation.

    Source

    http//rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Q61-6_Did_Jesus_announce_ahmad_in_the_Koran.htm

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    • G Offline
      G Offline
      good_logic
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      Peace runninglikezebras.

      A more logical question will be

      Where did Qoran come from?

      Is it from GOD?

      Then you can proceed to ask

      Who came after Jesus to deliver Qoran?

      The name Ahmed ,Mohammeed. Mustafa....All become irrelevant .A human prophet will suffice.

      GOD bless you.
      Peace.

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      • H Offline
        H Offline
        hawk99
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        Following the Islamic logic of ? successive revelations ?, according to which the Christian religion came to supplant the Hebrew one, and Islam came to replace both, it would seem appropriate that Jesus announced the Messenger of the third and ultimate religion, whose name is Muhammad. There is only one problem in the Gospel, except for the false prophets who are expected to rise after him, Jesus does not announce anyone resembling Muhammad.

        There is no problem, the Quran is sufficient for those who believe In Allah and the last day.
        They have their book we have ours.

        God bless

        peace

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        • R Offline
          R Offline
          runninglikezebras
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          Peace runninglikezebras.

          A more logical question will be

          Where did Qoran come from?

          I think you must have not been reading my posts. I have posted a map showing the origins of Islam in detail, even twice. Proto-islam started when judeo-nazarenes started indoctrating their Arab neighbours. More specifically those in the Syrian desert eventually fleeing to Medina.

          http//rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Genealogy-Islam.PNG

          Is it from GOD?

          It is. The original message is from God. The Uthmanic Quran you dispose of today however contains many human adaptations.

          Then you can proceed to ask

          Who came after Jesus to deliver Qoran?

          We don't know. All we know is Muhammad seems to have been influenced by a "waraqa" of Nazarene origin (making it probable Khadidja was Nazarene as well as she was related to "waraqa&quot. Soon after these events Muhammad became the commander of the Arabo-Nazarenes making attacks on the Holy Land.

          The name Ahmed ,Mohammeed. Mustafa....All become irrelevant .A human prophet will suffice.

          GOD bless you.
          Peace.

          I agree the names are irrelevant. Quran hardly mentions those. All I was proving here is that one of the few occurrences of it in Quran has been tampered with to make Muhammad the paraclete Jesus was talking about.

          Peace

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          • R Offline
            R Offline
            runninglikezebras
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            There is no problem, the Quran is sufficient for those who believe In Allah and the last day.
            They have their book we have ours.

            God bless

            peace

            Well the ones facing Mecca will be easy to distinct once that day breaks and we get resurrected. One would better be certain that is the right direction before that day breaks.

            Peace

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            • G Offline
              G Offline
              good_logic
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              Peace runninglikezebras.

              I have read your map. Not sure what to make of it. same as any other map.Does not tell you much. Needs study.

              I do not agree with your views here. Qoran tells me a different story.

              You say

              All I was proving here is that one of the few occurrences of it in Quran has been tampered with to make Muhammad the paraclete Jesus was talking about.

              I am afraid I have not seen you prove anything. You pasted a point of view and someone s analysis and opinion.

              GOD bless you.
              Peace

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              • R Offline
                R Offline
                runninglikezebras
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                Peace runninglikezebras.

                I have read your map. Not sure what to make of it. same as any other map.Does not tell you much. Needs study.

                I do not agree with your views here. Qoran tells me a different story.

                You say

                All I was proving here is that one of the few occurrences of it in Quran has been tampered with to make Muhammad the paraclete Jesus was talking about.

                I am afraid I have not seen you prove anything. You pasted a point of view and someone s analysis and opinion.

                GOD bless you.
                Peace

                Well I happen to think that point of view and academical research is correct. As you said, you have some research to do it seems. Maybe with some more study you will find out what the meaning is of "having all the traits of being an interpolation".

                Peace

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                • G Offline
                  G Offline
                  good_logic
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  Peace runninglikezebras.

                  I have done my research of Qoran. I am certain , the mushaf I have, does not contain any contradictions or interpolations.

                  But your map ,I said ,it needs more study.

                  Also thinking something is correct and being certain something is correct are two different things.

                  I am also certain Jesus came after Moses and Muhammed came after Jesus. Each one of them bringing a scripture.

                  Qoran is the last of these scriptures.
                  GOD bless you.
                  Peace.

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                  • R Offline
                    R Offline
                    runninglikezebras
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    Well I am certain it has been changed. More and more contradictions are coming to light every day as the result of academic research of the Quran and historical events of that time.

                    Why on earth are you worshipping a book? The Uthmanic Quran was written by human hands that were not always free from corruption. Realizing the Uthmanic codex contains changes compared to the original message should be no danger to your faith, unless you are deifying a book of course.

                    I guess worshipping a book and a stone goes hand in hand these days.

                    Peace

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                    • G Offline
                      G Offline
                      good_logic
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      Peace runninglikezebras.

                      For someone who is certain,you seem to be making assumptions about me?

                      I am looking at what you are bringing, but so far it amounts to opinions,misunderstanding of Qoran and no concrete evidence.

                      Look at how many times you have asked for proper evidence from others!!!

                      Surely you can see for yourself that you have not provided proper evidence?

                      Do you expect people to just believe "Educated opinions " without proofs?

                      I am open to all views, but that s all they are at the moment ,until hard evidence is provided.

                      It does not mean you give up. Keep trying,you never know.

                      GOD bless you.
                      Peace.

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                      • H Offline
                        H Offline
                        huruf
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        Deifying a book? Would you rather we would deify runninglikezebras?

                        I think I am starting to distinguish your lines.

                        Salaam

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                        • S Offline
                          S Offline
                          Scribbler
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          Peace.

                          Runninglikezebras, you say that the Uthmanic Quran was written by human hands that were not always free from corruption.

                          And your history books are free from corruption?

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                          • F Offline
                            F Offline
                            FreedomStands
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            Peace runninglikezebras.

                            For someone who is certain,you seem to be making assumptions about me?

                            I am looking at what you are bringing, but so far it amounts to opinions,misunderstanding of Qoran and no concrete evidence.

                            Look at how many times you have asked for proper evidence from others!!!

                            Surely you can see for yourself that you have not provided proper evidence?

                            Do you expect people to just believe "Educated opinions " without proofs?

                            I am open to all views, but that s all they are at the moment ,until hard evidence is provided.

                            It does not mean you give up. Keep trying,you never know.

                            GOD bless you.
                            Peace.

                            I am so certain about so many things, and about the things of which I am certain, I am so pleased with myself regarding them. Ah! That was a joyful sigh, for certain!

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                            • F Offline
                              F Offline
                              fye
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              I think you must have not been reading my posts. I have posted a map showing the origins of Islam in detail, even twice. Proto-islam started when judeo-nazarenes started indoctrating their Arab neighbours. More specifically those in the Syrian desert eventually fleeing to Medina.

                              http//rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Genealogy-Islam.PNG

                              It is. The original message is from God. The Uthmanic Quran you dispose of today however contains many human adaptations.

                              We don't know. All we know is Muhammad seems to have been influenced by a "waraqa" of Nazarene origin (making it probable Khadidja was Nazarene as well as she was related to "waraqa&quot. Soon after these events Muhammad became the commander of the Arabo-Nazarenes making attacks on the Holy Land.

                              I agree the names are irrelevant. Quran hardly mentions those. All I was proving here is that one of the few occurrences of it in Quran has been tampered with to make Muhammad the paraclete Jesus was talking about.

                              Peace

                              yo this is backward

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