Is Surah al-M??idah contradicting itself?
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Peace runninglikezebras.
Let us review all the verses so the context is clear.
From 551 until the subject changes,then see for yourself,or members here can see what GOD is really saying
Let us quote all the verses first
551
O you who believe, do not take( certain) Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. God does not guide the transgressors.Notice the word in bracket (certain) you will see why at the end?
552
You will see those who harbor doubt in their hearts hasten to join them, saying, "We fear lest we may be defeated." May God bring victory, or a command from Him, that causes them to regret their secret thoughts.553
The believers will then say, "Are these the same people who swore by God solemnly that they were with you?" Their works have been nullified; they are the losers.554
O you who believe, if you revert from your religion, then God will substitute in your place people whom He loves and who love Him. They will be kind with the believers, stern with the disbelievers, and will strive in the cause of God without fear of any blame. Such is God's blessing; He bestows it upon whomever He wills. God is Bounteous, Omniscient.555
Your real allies are God and His messenger, and the believers who observe the Salat, and give the Zakat, and they bow down.556
Those who ally themselves with God and His messenger, and those who believed, belong in the party of God; absolutely, they are the victors.Now here comes the clue! Which Jews and Christians?
557
O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence God, if you are really believers.558
When you call to the Salat, they mock and ridicule it. This is because they are people who do not understand.559
Say, "O people of the scripture, do you not hate us because we believe in God, and in what was revealed to us, and in what was revealed before us, and because most of you are not righteous?"560
Say, "Let me tell you who are worse in the sight of God those who are condemned by God after incurring His wrath until He made them (as despicable as) monkeys and pigs, and the idol worshipers. These are far worse, and farther from the right path."561
When they come to you, they say, "We believe," even though they were full of disbelief when they entered, and they are full of disbelief when they leave. God is fully aware of everything they conceal.562
You see many of them readily committing evil and transgression, and eating from illicit earnings. Miserable indeed is what they do.563
If only the rabbis and the priests enjoin them from their sinful utterances and illicit earnings! Miserable indeed is what they commit.See ,their rabbis and priests" means certain Jews and Christians!!!!
The context brother ,settles the issue here. Now you see why the word "certain" was necessary.
GOD bless you
Peace -
Peace runninglikezebras.
Let us review all the verses so the context is clear.
From 551 until the subject changes,then see for yourself,or members here can see what GOD is really saying
Let us quote all the verses first
551
O you who believe, do not take( certain) Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. God does not guide the transgressors.Notice the word in bracket (certain) you will see why at the end?
552
You will see those who harbor doubt in their hearts hasten to join them, saying, "We fear lest we may be defeated." May God bring victory, or a command from Him, that causes them to regret their secret thoughts.553
The believers will then say, "Are these the same people who swore by God solemnly that they were with you?" Their works have been nullified; they are the losers.554
O you who believe, if you revert from your religion, then God will substitute in your place people whom He loves and who love Him. They will be kind with the believers, stern with the disbelievers, and will strive in the cause of God without fear of any blame. Such is God's blessing; He bestows it upon whomever He wills. God is Bounteous, Omniscient.555
Your real allies are God and His messenger, and the believers who observe the Salat, and give the Zakat, and they bow down.556
Those who ally themselves with God and His messenger, and those who believed, belong in the party of God; absolutely, they are the victors.Now here comes the clue! Which Jews and Christians?
557
O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence God, if you are really believers.558
When you call to the Salat, they mock and ridicule it. This is because they are people who do not understand.559
Say, "O people of the scripture, do you not hate us because we believe in God, and in what was revealed to us, and in what was revealed before us, and because most of you are not righteous?"560
Say, "Let me tell you who are worse in the sight of God those who are condemned by God after incurring His wrath until He made them (as despicable as) monkeys and pigs, and the idol worshipers. These are far worse, and farther from the right path."561
When they come to you, they say, "We believe," even though they were full of disbelief when they entered, and they are full of disbelief when they leave. God is fully aware of everything they conceal.562
You see many of them readily committing evil and transgression, and eating from illicit earnings. Miserable indeed is what they do.563
If only the rabbis and the priests enjoin them from their sinful utterances and illicit earnings! Miserable indeed is what they commit.See ,their rabbis and priests" means certain Jews and Christians!!!!
The context brother ,settles the issue here. Now you see why the word "certain" was necessary.
GOD bless you
PeaceAre you kidding me? Are you promoting injections into translations now? The word certain is not there in 551. Deal with it. People of the book/scripture is NOT equal to Jews and Nasara. Are you even reading what I am posting? The subject in 551 and 557 is DIFFERENT. 551 speaks exclusively of Jews and Nasara. 557 speaks of all the people of the book. Eg byzantine christians are not referred to in 551 but can be referred to in 557. How many times do you want me to repeat this? Are you ignoring this argument, or what is up?
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
It is the same subject. all the way through the verses quoted.
Why do you want 551 to mean "all" the jews and nasara then, if you are saying I cannot say just "certain jews and nasara.
Are you applying a different rule for you?
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Peace runninglikezebras.
It is the same subject. all the way through the verses quoted.
Why do you want 551 to mean "all" the jews and nasara then, if you are saying I cannot say just "certain jews and nasara.
Are you applying a different rule for you?
GOD bless you.
PeaceDo this test please because it is not getting through....
Think of byzantine christians. Read 551. Ask yourself are byzantine christians referred to here? Answer No, only the nazarenes and jews are referred to. Byzantine christians aren't jewish nor nazarenes.
Now read 557. Ask yourself could byzantine christians be referred to here? Answer Yes, byzantine christians are people of the book.
Conclusion People of the book and "jews and nasara" are not identical groups.
Implicit consequence The rule in 557 can not be applied to 551 because 551 is not referring to all the people of the book but only the jews and nazarenes within the larger group of People of the book.
551 means ALL because it uses A PROPER NOUN PLUS DEFINITE ARTICLE IN ANY LANGUAGE THIS MEANS THE ENTIRE GROUP. Eg THE ENGLISH, THE FRENCH, THE DUTCH meaning ALL THE ENGLISH, ALL THE FRENCH, ALL THE DUTCH.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
As yourself this question,557 only applies to those who mock and ridicule the believers. It does not apply to any other Jews or Christians or...?
What you are saying about different denominations is irrelevant.
557 is clear for all to see.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace runninglikezebras.
As yourself this question,557 only applies to those who mock and ridicule the believers. It does not apply to any other Jews or Christians or...?
What you are saying about different denominations is irrelevant.
557 is clear for all to see.
GOD bless you.
Peace.551 Don't take Jews and Nazarenes as allies (no condition), simply DONT. => YOU CAN NEVER TAKE THEM AS ALLIES
557 Do not take people of the book as allies when they mock and ridicule you. => YOU CAN TAKE THEM AS ALLIES UNLESS THEY MOCK AND RIDICULE BELIEVERS OR ARE NASARA OR JEWS
Please try to apply some REASON and LOGIC.
You simply ignored my example of byzantine christians that demonstrates the difference perfectly and leaves no doubt about them being different denominators.
Peace
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Here is the flowchart
Question Is this group a permitted ally according to Quran?
- Are they Nasara or Jews?
If true You can't take them as allies. Stop Here. (551)
If false Continue to 2)- Are they people of the book?
If true Continue to 3)
If False You can't take them as allies. Stop here. (557)- Are they mocking and ridiculing the believers?
If True You can't take them as allies Stop here. (557)
If False You can take them as allies. Stop here. (557)The conditions are pretty clear and easy to understand.
Peace
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Peace runninglikezebras.
I have explained my understanding using all the verses that clarified the same subject and the context.
You have stated your views.
Like you said we both keep repeating ourselves.
I do not agree with your views. I do not see any contradiction or abrogation or even the slightest problem that you see.
The reader can now take what they feel makes sense to them or ponder Qoran and get their own understanding from the verses.
Thank you once more.
I now will end my conversation in this thread, if you do not mind.
Best of luck with your research.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Okay. But your logic is not sound concerning these verses.
Peace
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Peace good logic,
Let me give you an example here
2113
The Jews said, "The Christians have no basis," while the Christians said, "The Jews have no basis." Yet, both of them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those who possess no knowledge. God will judge them on the Day of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.Do you think all the Christians have said this about the Jews,and all the Jews have said that about the Christians?
First you mistranslate the verse and then try to base your understanding on the mistranslation.
"AL-NASARA" DOES NOT MEAN "THE CHRISTIANS".
"AL-NASARA" IS A SUBSET OF "THE CHRISTIANS".
"AL-NASARA" REFERS TO ALL NASARA (i.e. SOME CHRISTIANS) BUT NOT "ALL CHRISTIANS".
If AL-NASARA told AL-YAHUD that AL-YAHUD don't have any basis, then ALL NASARA (NOT ALL CHRISTIANS) told that to AL-YAHUD.
In al-quran when a subset is referred to, the word "ba3d"/some is used.
For example
419 O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit from the women by force. And do not make difficulty for them so that you may take away some of what you have given them .............
432 And do not envy that which God has graced some of you over others with ............
Al-quran does use "some" when a subset is being referred to.
The same when GOD says the "nasara" have said " GOD has begotten a son". Does it mean "all the nasara"? I know and you know some are monotheist!!!!
You are making your own conclusion first (that some nasara did not say that), and then forcing YOUR OWN ERRONEOUS CONCLUSION upon understanding of the verse.
If al-quran says THE NASARA said that, then ALL NASARA MUST HAVE SAID THAT. THIS DOES NOT MEAN ALL CHRISTIANS SAID THAT.
AL-NASARA = ALL NASARA (SOME CHRISTIANS).
"AL-NASARA" DOES NOT REFER TO "ALL CHRISTIANS". That is your forced erroneous misunderstanding.
Let us quote all the verses first
551
O you who believe, do not take( certain) Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. God does not guide the transgressors.Bro, I am extremely disappointed with you for interjecting a word in brackets which is not in the original Arabic, and then basing your understanding on the wrongly interjected word.
Peace
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Peace Truthseeker.
I thought I was done here, but since you set a trap for yourself,let me help you get out of it.
You say nasara means all nasara!!! Surely by your definition when GOD say "People of the book/followers of the scripture ,it means "All people of the book/all followers of the scripture",right?
Explain this
371
O followers of the scripture, why do you confound the truth with falsehood, and conceal the truth, knowingly?If it means "all the followers of the scripture",then you are confounding the truth with falsehood.
See, I am trying to get you out of a sticky situation brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace good logic,
Thank you for falling in the trap yourself You actually have given a proof against your own erroneous understanding.
I am seriously starting to worry about how you interpret al-quran.
369 A group from the people of the book wished that they could misguide you, but they only misguide themselves and they do not notice.
370 "O people of the book, why do you reject the revelations of allah while you are bearing witness?"
371 "O people of the book, why do you confound the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"It is crystal clear that 370, 371 is addressing A GROUP FROM THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK.
This solidifies what I have been trying to explain before. When al-quran talks about a subset it uses "some" or "a group from" etc.
Al-quran explains the audience first and not further down in the context like you have been implying in 551 to 557 with upside down logic.
Peace
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Peace Truthseeker it does so both ways.
Here is an example
2568
They never implore beside God any other god, nor do they kill anyone - for God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. Nor do they commit adultery. Those who commit these offenses will have to pay.2569
Retribution is doubled for them on the Day of Resurrection, and they abide therein humiliated.Look ,not all of those who commit the offences,explained here,below
2570
Exempted are those who repent, believe, and lead a righteous life. God transforms their sins into credits. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.Brother, thank you for acknowledging there is a context in Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Truthseeker it does so both ways.
Here is an example
2568
They never implore beside God any other god, nor do they kill anyone - for God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. Nor do they commit adultery. Those who commit these offenses will have to pay.2569
Retribution is doubled for them on the Day of Resurrection, and they abide therein humiliated.Look ,not all of those who commit the offences,explained here,below
2570
Exempted are those who repent, believe, and lead a righteous life. God transforms their sins into credits. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.Brother, thank you for acknowledging there is a context in Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Do you see how Quran states an exemption? It states it explicitly. Now where is the explicit exemption in 557?
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Peace runninglikezebras.
Yes exactly ,it can either be an exemption/exception of who in the case of 2570 about 568 or a clarification/definition/confirmation of who in the case of 557 about 551.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace, great debate, I was thinking of exceptions and remembered
Where do women fit into this inclusion/exclusion scenario?
This day good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those
who were given the Scripture is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them.
And chaste women from among the believers and
chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you,
when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful
sexual intercourse or taking lovers. And whoever denies the faith -
his work has become worthless, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.God bless
peace