The "Difference between Messengers/Prophets" .

unknownuser

Salaams saladin,

Good stuff! And i am sure you will bring out more such work.

But

According to the following there is no end to prophets ,i think.

007.035
YUSUFALI O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you messengers from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you,- those who are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.

God Bless.

shuaib

salams folks,

here's another way of restating things.

There are Prophets who receive wahi from Allah and who deliver scripture. They are also messengers.

Then there are those who "brings clarity from the scripture" and "the proper understanding of the Universe(Al Kitaab)." So basically they truly understand the Quran and attempt to implement it... these people are called MUSLIMS.

Then there are SOME Muslims, who decide that being just another Muslim isn't enough... they also need to have superiority and rank, and decide to elevate themself to the self-given title of "messenger." These people have existed in the past and exist in the present, and will in the future... both inside and outside of Islam... The purpose of the finality of the Prophethood was to save us from these charlatans, but unfortunately, there are still those who wish to be enslaved by them... too bad, when the only thing they really need is the Quran.

wassalam

Fahad1

peace . i had to post my original message under the "general issues/questions" message board , but i accidently posted it here . so i have posted it in the general message borad now .
heer
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39910#39910
peace .

marie

Salam Saladin,

Please check you pm

Thanks

marie

Salaam Kyle,

Yes, a messenger brings clarity from the scripture, but the messenger did not necessarily "bring the scripture"
,

Can you quote some examples from the Reading which support your statement?

The prophet is the human SOURCE, like a radio transmission, and the messengers are the different televisions and radios as well as the emission tower(prophet) itself (because it is a tool for delivering the ONE MESSAGE/ONE TRANSMISSION).

We cannot compare the God's messengers and women/men of the science.

We cannot compare this Reading at any scientific book of Einstein and co..

Say ?If all the humans and the Jinn were to gather to bring a Reading like this, they could not come with its like, even if they were helping one another.?

Fahad1

peace .
can anybody tell me the correct translation of verse 1047 ?please.
peace .
fahad.

marie

Peace Fahad,

peace .
can anybody tell me the correct translation of verse 1047 ?please.
peace .
fahad.

I think FM's translation of this verse 1047 is correct

And for every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.

zenje

... too bad, when the only thing they really need is the Quran.

You mean GOD... idea

Peace

loli

Peace Saladin

Nice work on compiling the verses
But how your idea on prophets are types of messengers fits 381

381 And God took a covenant from the prophets "For what I have given you of the Scripture and wisdom, then a messenger will come to you authenticating what is with you. You will believe in him and support him." He said "Do you testify, and agree to this burden?", they said "We testify." He said "Then bear witness, and I am with you bearing witness."

381 clearly states that the convenant is only made with all prophets, but there will be a messenger who is not in the convenant that will confirm/authenticate what is with the prophets.

So are you suggesting that the messenger in 381 is a non-human messenger?

Peace

marie

Peace Loli,

381 clearly states that the convenant is only made with all prophets, but there will be a messenger who is not in the convenant that will confirm/authenticate what is with the prophets.

The God speaks about His ?anbiya? as messengers

And when Jesus, son of Mary, said ?O children of Israel, I am God's messenger to you, authenticating what is present with me of the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be acclaimed.? But when he showed them the clear proofs, they said ?This is clearly magic.?

Mohammed (3340) like the Messiah son of Mary (367), is no more than a messenger; like whom messengers have passed away.
We are also told in the same way ?Then, in succession, We followed them up with (other of) Our Messengers. We caused them to be followed by Jesus son of Mary?.

In the light of the Reading, the Prophets speak about themselves as messengers.

For more information The prophets, bearers of good news and warners..

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Zenje,

shuaib wrote
... too bad, when the only thing they really need is the Quran.

You mean GOD?

Good observation Zenje. Once we give up this Idolizing of a physical book, understandings will open up. A messenger is NOT a super hero, anyone who spreads the message is a messenger, anyone. If you go to someone and say "do not oppress others" , you are acting as MESSENGER.

Why is there so much fear of this basic understanding?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Marie,

Quote
Yes, a messenger brings clarity from the scripture, but the messenger did not necessarily "bring the scripture"

Can you quote some examples from the Reading which support your statement?

Yes, but you will have to start t hinking about AL Kitaab being the universe, not some paper book.

(515) You, The Book's people, Our messenger has come to you, he clarifies/shows to you much from what you were hiding from The Book, and He forgives/pardons from much, a light and clear/evident Book had come to you from God.

And it is always a SUCCESSION of messengers that follow a prophet. Prophethood is just the ability to Intiut TRUTH (how parts relate to each other and the WHOLE). We must be SCIENTISTS, science and religion are not enemies, they are ONE.

Quote
The prophet is the human SOURCE, like a radio transmission, and the messengers are the different televisions and radios as well as the emission tower(prophet) itself (because it is a tool for delivering the ONE MESSAGE/ONE TRANSMISSION).

We cannot compare the God's messengers and women/men of the science.

Why not? What does the word "science" mean? It comes from "scire" which means "to know". Science is the method of KNOWING something, rather than blind faith. This is not to say that any theory of a "scientist" is true SCIENCE, no, only that which can be verified to be consistent. Like making liquid from 2 hydrogens and one oxygen.

The laws of life from our physical body to our minds are controlled by these SCIENTIFIC laws, the big bang spewed out gases according to STRICT MATHEMATICAL LAWS which is how we have the sciences of chemistry , physics, etc. It is the reason we can have something called Mathematics.

Aren't we suppose to ask for increase in Knowledge? If science implies KNOWLEDGE, then we are asking for an increase in SCIENCE (ability to know things)

What do you call what ABraham was doing when he witnessed the rising and setting of the stars, moon and sun? What about the weighing and proper mathematical measurements of SHuiab? How do we understand the calculations of money to be left to our families, without science?

We cannot compare this Reading at any scientific book of Einstein and co..

Say If all the humans and the Jinn were to gather to bring a Reading like this, they could not come with its like, even if they were helping one another.

Its not the physical book that we focus on, thats for sects, the universal reading is Al Kitaab(the Universe). Certainly all the human and hidden ones gathered together cannot bring the like of this universe(Al kitaab), which is to be "read".

Someone

Peace,

I have some questions

Why the need to have a "final" messenger or a "final" prophet? What's the purpose of it?
From where(the source) an inventor/discoverer gets his inspiration for his new discovery? Can he make his discovery if he's is not following the laws of the god in the creation?
Physically speaking, how can we make a difference between a "messenger of the god" and a "normal servant of the god"? Where does the difference lie between the two?

--

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Someone,

I have some questions

Why the need to have a "final" messenger or a "final" prophet? What's the purpose of it?

The God informs us that this is the understanding of the majority throughout time, they never want another messenger to come.

4034 (YA) "And to you there came joseph in times gone by, with Clear Signs, but ye ceased not to doubt of the (Mission) for which he had come At length, when he died, ye said 'No apostle will Allah send after him.' thus doth Allah leave to stray such as transgress and live in doubt,-

So expect to see these statements that no more messengers are coming, but realize the proper place for these statements.

From where(the source) an inventor/discoverer gets his inspiration for his new discovery?

From The Lord (Rabb)

Can he make his discovery if he's is not following the laws of the god in the creation?

No, he cannot It is by following the God's laws in creation that one can raise to the level where he can intuit from the God. Abraham recieved instructions from the God, which he followed, and was THEN made an Imam to the world. The God does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier NAFS.

shuaib

salams zenje,

shuaib wrote
... too bad, when the only thing they really need is the Quran.

zenje wrote You mean GOD...

Actually, it's obvious that we need God.. but how do we get to God? Our central means of that is through the message of the Quran. That is our connection to him.

If you go to someone and say "do not oppress others" , you are acting as MESSENGER.

Yes idolfree, and someone delivering the mail is also acting as a messenger. And someone acting out the message of the Quran is a MUSLIM. Someone clearly interpreting the Quran is a MUSLIM. We do not need to have ranks between Muslims... and we CERTAINLY should not be making ranks and claiming it is divinely ordained!

wassalam

marie

Peace Kyle,

Quote
Yes, a messenger brings clarity from the scripture, but the messenger did not necessarily "bring the scripture"

Can you quote some examples from the Reading which support your statement?

Yes, but you will have to start t hinking about AL Kitaab being the universe, not some paper book.

Thanks for the reminder, we agree the Reading is a book and belong to the BOOK which is with the God.

(515) You, The Book's people, Our messenger has come to you, he clarifies/shows to you much from what you were hiding from The Book, and He forgives/pardons from much, a light and clear/evident Book had come to you from God.

The messeger clarifies/shows not according his desire but through the God's word. The response is given in 516

516 Through this Book Allah guides to paths of Peace, those who seek His Approval. He brings them out of darkness into the Light of His Grace, and guides them to the Straight Path.

One can hide a part of a scripture

And they did not appreciate God as He deserves to be appreciated, for they said ?God has never sent down anything to any human being.? Say ?Who then has sent down the ScriptureBook/alkitab which Moses had come with, a light and a guidance for the people? You treat it just as paper, you show some of it and conceal much, and you were taught what neither you nor your fathers knew.? Say ?God has.? Then leave them playing in their folly.

And it is always a SUCCESSION of messengers that follow a prophet. Prophethood is just the ability to Intiut TRUTH (how parts relate to each other and the WHOLE). We must be SCIENTISTS, science and religion are not enemies, they are ONE.

I would prefer a definition of prophethood in the light of the Reading not based on opinions.

Scientists and prophets are not at the same level, the scientific discoveries is the fruit of several years of research. The God guides every one who seeks to improve his knowledge about the creation.

Did the prophet Muhamad have done the same thing to know all what was inspired/revealed to him through this Reading?

The response is No. The examples are numerous

Several scientific discoveries dated from the 20th century were announced since several centuries in this Reading.

Scientists and prophets are supplementary but not interchangeable.

We cannot compare this Reading at any scientific book of Einstein and co..

Say ?If all the humans and the Jinn were to gather to bring a Reading like this, they could not come with its like, even if they were helping one another.?

Its not the physical book that we focus on, thats for sects, the universal reading is Al Kitaab(the Universe). Certainly all the human and hidden ones gathered together cannot bring the like of this universe(Al kitaab), which is to be "read".

The God speaks about this Reading and not about the BOOK
I rectify a bit the translation of 1788 according of the arabic text

Say ?If all the humans and the Jinn were to gather to bring something like this Reading...

1789 And We have cited to mankind in this Reading of every example, but most of mankind refuse to be anything but a rejecter!

1741 We have explained things in various ways in this Qur?an so that people understand. But Our Law of Guidance is unwavering (488 ). The ones with preconceived denial will only increase in their flight from the Truth.

Fahad1

Peace Fahad,

I think FM's translation of this verse 1047 is correct

And for every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.

peace marie .
but the word used in 1047 is "ummah" . does ummah mean "community" , or "nation" ?

also Malik and Asad translate the verse in past tense, showing that every nation or community has already recieved their messenger

Malik Every nation was sent a Rasool...

Asad Now every community has had an apostle...

what do u say ?
peace .

marie

Peace fahad,

peace marie .
but the word used in 1047 is "ummah" . does ummah mean "community" , or "nation" ?

Both "community" and "nation" are valid.

I think that the blue text is linked to the term of every nation

And for every nation is a messenger; so when their messenger comes, the matter is decreed between them with justice, and they are not wronged.
Say ?I do not posses for myself any harm or benefit except what God wills. For every nation is a time. When their time comes, they cannot delay it one hour nor advance it.?

We read the same sentence in 1054 than in 1047
1054. And if every soul that wronged had possessed all that is on Earth, it would have attempted to ransom it. And they declared their regret when they saw the retribution, and it was judged between them with fairness. They were not wronged.