Polytheistic doctrine in the Quran, prophets invoking the dead!
-
Hi huruf,
If you invoke your mother while she's alive, no your not a polytheist.
If you invoke her when she's not alive, then you are a polytheist.
The verses are in context of DEAD people, not while alive.
The person has to be able to hear you, not that you invoke your mother from your house while she might be in another country, this is polytheism.
-
Peace Nonmushrik.
I am afraid ,again, it is a lack of understanding the context and the message.
Salih, Shuaib...etc are not addressing anybody. They know their people have gone,never to return.
They are making a statement of fact to serve as a lesson to you,me and future generations that they are not to blame, their people take all the blame for refusing to listen and obey!If my father,who is no longer , disobeyed GOD and I say" Oh my father you have been warned,but did not listen". Am I invoking the dead?
Of course not, I am just making a point/a statement of fact to serve as a warning to other living fathers not to disobey GOD.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Hi good logic, "YA" is the vocative in the quranic arabic.
Both shuaib and salih are standing in the presence of mass corpses, saying "YA qawmi"
Yes, you would be a polytheist saying YA to anyone who is not alive.
Do you believe shias are polytheist for example when they say YA ali?
-
Peace Nonmushrik.
First, this is an assumption
Both shuaib and salih are standing in the presence of mass corpses, saying "YA qawmi"
You are assuming this, Qoran does not say they are standing in the presence of mass corpses!
Second, I have given you an example and I used "Ya" -Oh my father".... It is about my father ,not in the presence of my father who is no longer.
Salih,Shuaib... are speaking about their "Quawm" not in the presence of their "Quawm".
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Hi huruf,
If you invoke your mother while she's alive, no your not a polytheist.
If you invoke her when she's not alive, then you are a polytheist.
The verses are in context of DEAD people, not while alive.
The person has to be able to hear you, not that you invoke your mother from your house while she might be in another country, this is polytheism.
?How can you say that naybody who addresses anything or anybody who is not alive is a polytheist? You say that not God says that. You invent your own rules and assumptions. You are not speaking on behalf of God. You are a mushrik who takes his words as if they were God's words.
Salam
-
Hi good logic.
Im not assuming anything, I'm reading the verses in context.
They both invoke/address the dead AFTER the nation is destroyed, there would have been at least 1 million dead corpses lying around this crumbled city.
I'm not saying there were that many, it may have only been 1 thousand.
Your example I understood, if you invoke somebody who's not alive with the vocative YA, this is polytheism.
-
Hi huruf,
It seems you agree with me at least that invoking the dead is explicit in the Quran.
We disagree about whether this is polytheism.
-
Hi huruf,
The "YA" in the Arabic text is in the vocative which means "invoking" not addressing.
(7794)
yqawmi
"O my people! VOC ? prefixed vocative particle ya
N ? accusative masculine noun
PRON ? 1st person singular possessive pronounvocative
vktv/
GRAMMAR
adjective
adjective vocative
1.
relating to or denoting a case of nouns, pronouns, and adjectives in Latin and other languages, used in addressing or invoking a person or thing.
noun
noun vocative; plural noun vocatives
1.
a word in the vocative case.
the vocative case.
noun the vocativeI apologise if I misunderstood your belief. These verses are bad theological and doctrinal teachings.
-
Hi huruf,
I apologise, it seems addressing and invoking are the same definition. Either-way, addressing/invoking is the same thing.
The context in these passages refers specifically to addressing/invoking the dead.
-
Obivously that it is saddressing the dead is your own conclusion.
Good logic told you it is not. I do trust good logic and her logic.
You on the other hand seem to be playing some kind of wits game to show us how silly the Qur?n is. Upm till now the only sillyness I can see is in what you write.
Wits games are not the same as loyalty to truth and uprightness. So try being truthful and upright con dealing with serious things, so that you can be taken seriously.
Salaam
-
Peace Huruf.
I am making the following statement
" Ya Nonmushrik,Qoran needs to be pondered to be understood better".
This statement will help others ,who read this thread,to make sure the context is studied to be understood properly.
Whether Nonmushrik is alive and sees/reads this or dead ( I know he is not really dead,just as example),it does not really matter.
This is a statement of fact that serves as a lesson.
So "Ya" can be used for both to "address" or to talk "about".
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Hi huruf.
I've presented the evidence of what these passages speak of in context, I've also presented the evidence/implication of this word "ya".
-
Polytheistic doctrine in the Quran, prophets invoking the dead!
I am an atheist, not a Christian etc...
The Quran claims you should only invoke Allah ("YA Allah", yet at the same time this "allah" endorses polytheist prophets who invoke the dead!
Salih invoking the dead after his nation had been destroyed
Then they ham-strung the she camel, and insolently defied the order of their Lord, saying ?O Salih! bring about thy threats, if thou art a messenger (of Allah)!?
So the earthquake took them unawares, and they lay prostrate in their homes in the morning!
So Salih left them, saying ?O my people! I did indeed convey to you the message for which I was sent by my Lord I gave you good counsel, but ye love not good counsellors!?
Notice 779, Salih is addressing the dead in the vocative "YA qawmi".
What in the world is this man Salih doing invoking and speaking to the dead, telling them he conveyed the message from Allah?
Polytheist prophet 2, Shuaib invoking the dead after his nation had been destroyed
But the earthquake took them unawares, and they lay prostrate in their homes before the morning!
The men who reject Shu?aib became as if they had never been in the homes where they had flourished the men who rejected Shu?aib ? it was they who were ruined!
So Shu?aib left them, saying?O my people! I did indeed convey to you the messages for which I was sent by my Lord I gave you good counsel, but how shall I lament over a people who refuse to believe!?
Note again, "YA qawmi", why in the world is this man addressing the dead?
In conclusion, the Quran endorses polytheism, invoking the dead. No wonder certain Muslims around the world say "YA rasulallah, YA Ali, assalamu alaika ayyuhan nabiyyu etc..."
To Quran alone Muslims who reject the Sunni tashahhud "assalamu alaika ayyuhan nabiyyu", which is clear polytheism. Now you have evidence that this practice is in the Quran and endorsed.
Peace Nonmushrik as an atheist you will surely find many errors, inconsistencies,
contradictions and falsehoods in Quran Kareem. As for the thread at hand, you
simply misunderstand the difference between "lamenting" and "talking/Invoking."peace
-
Hi hawk99,
I provided evidence that "ya" is vocative, it means to address/invoke.
Lamenting? When you say "ya Allah", are you lamenting or invoking him?
Here's a simple question to anyone on free-minds
When Sunnis/Shias visit Muhammad's grave they say "assalamu alayka ya rasool allah" (Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah)
Is this polytheism or monotheism?
If you say polytheism, then the Quran endorses polytheism which you should accept.
If you say monotheism, this is contradictory because only "Ya Allah" would be monotheism. (I'm not speaking about addressing someone alive, that would not be polytheistic)
-
What in the world is this man Salih doing invoking and speaking to the dead, telling them he conveyed the message from Allah?
Note again, "YA qawmi", why in the world is this man addressing the dead?
Peace, were they all dead (i.e. 100% kill rate during the calamity) or did some of their folk survive along with them?
778/91 so seized them (the commotion, agitation, or convulsion; particularly a violent earthquake or punishment that befalls a people) so became they in homes theirs (bodies cast upon the ground or motionless; and dead)
-
Peace Nonmushrik.
First, this is an assumption
Both shuaib and salih are standing in the presence of mass corpses, saying "YA qawmi"
You are assuming this, Qoran does not say they are standing in the presence of mass corpses!
Second, I have given you an example and I used "Ya" -Oh my father".... It is about my father ,not in the presence of my father who is no longer.
Salih,Shuaib... are speaking about their "Quawm" not in the presence of their "Quawm".
GOD bless you.
Peace.lol this is so funny, because its so common for people to just imagine weird hilarious stuff that is never said.
-
Polytheistic doctrine in the Quran, prophets invoking the dead!
I am an atheist, not a Christian etc...
The Quran claims you should only invoke Allah ("YA Allah", yet at the same time this "allah" endorses polytheist prophets who invoke the dead!
Salih invoking the dead after his nation had been destroyed
Then they ham-strung the she camel, and insolently defied the order of their Lord, saying �O Salih! bring about thy threats, if thou art a messenger (of Allah)!�
So the earthquake took them unawares, and they lay prostrate in their homes in the morning!
So Salih left them, saying �O my people! I did indeed convey to you the message for which I was sent by my Lord I gave you good counsel, but ye love not good counsellors!�
Notice 779, Salih is addressing the dead in the vocative "YA qawmi".
What in the world is this man Salih doing invoking and speaking to the dead, telling them he conveyed the message from Allah?
Polytheist prophet 2, Shuaib invoking the dead after his nation had been destroyed
But the earthquake took them unawares, and they lay prostrate in their homes before the morning!
The men who reject Shu�aib became as if they had never been in the homes where they had flourished the men who rejected Shu�aib � it was they who were ruined!
So Shu�aib left them, saying�O my people! I did indeed convey to you the messages for which I was sent by my Lord I gave you good counsel, but how shall I lament over a people who refuse to believe!�
Note again, "YA qawmi", why in the world is this man addressing the dead?
In conclusion, the Quran endorses polytheism, invoking the dead. No wonder certain Muslims around the world say "YA rasulallah, YA Ali, assalamu alaika ayyuhan nabiyyu etc..."
To Quran alone Muslims who reject the Sunni tashahhud "assalamu alaika ayyuhan nabiyyu", which is clear polytheism. Now you have evidence that this practice is in the Quran and endorsed.
I know this has been a while and Nonmushrik is not here anymore but i want to adress this Nowhere in the Quran does "Ya Allah" occurs.
And the arabic word for invoking is dua
Dal-Ayn-Waw (د ع و) = to seek, desire, ask, demand, call upon, invoke, ascribe, cry out, call out to, pray, supplicate, petition, require, need, summon, invite, assert, succour. (e.g. 'daAAa' in phonetic search engine).
Adopted son (adiya, pl. of da'iy).Da'aa (prf. 3rd. p.m. sing.) He prayed, called.
Du'aa (prf. 3rd. p.m. plu.) They ascribed.
Da'utu (prf. 1st. p. sing.) I called.
Li Yad'u (prt. 3rd. p.m. sing.) Let him call; he might call.
Lam Yad'u (imp. 3rd. p.m.) Did not call us.
Yad'u (imp. 3rd. p.m.) He calls.
Yad'uuna (imp. 3rd. p.m. plu.) They call.
Yad'uu (imp. 2nd. p.m. sing.) Thou call.
Tad'uu (imp. 2nd. p.m. sing.) Thou call.
Tad'uu/Tad'uuna (acc./ imp. 1st. p. plu.) You call.
Nad'u/Nad'uu (imp. 1st. p. plu.) We call.
Ud'u (prt. 2nd. p.m. sing.) Thou call.
Ud'uu (prt. 2nd. p.m. plu.) Call you all.
Du'iya (pp. 3rd. p.m. sing.) He was called.
Du'uu (pip. 3rd. p.m. plu.) They were called.
Du'iitum (pp. 2nd. p.m. plu.) You were called.
Laa tad'u (prt. neg.) Do not call.
Da'uutum (prf. 3rd. p.m. plu.) You called.
Tud'auna (pip. 2nd. p.m. plu.) You are called.
Tad'uu/Tad'uuna (imp. 3rd. p.m. plu. VIII.) They ask for.
Tadda'uuna (imp. 2nd. p.m. plu. VIII.) You ask for.
Tud'aa (pip. 2nd. p.m. plu. VIII.) You will be summoned.
Yud'aa (pip. 3rd. p.m. sing. VIII.) He will be summoned.
Yud'auna (pip. 3rd. p.m. plu. VIII.) They will be summoned.
Daa'in/Daa'ii (act. pic. m. sing.) One who calls, summons.
Du'aa'un (v.n.) Supplication; prayer; call.
Du'aai (comb.) My prayer; calling.
Ad'iyaa (n. plu.) Adopted son.
Da'watun (v.n.) Call; claim; message; supplication; prayer.
Da'waahum (comb.) Their cry.daAAa vb. (1)
perf. act. 2186, 338, 7189, 7193, 824, 1012, 1022, 1422, 1852, 1991, 2513, 2762, 2864, 2965, 3025, 3033, 3132, 398, 3949, 4133, 4422, 5410, 715, 717, 718
impf. act. 2221, 2221, 361, 3104, 3153, 4117, 640, 641, 641, 652, 656, 663, 671, 671, 6108, 737, 7193, 7194, 7197, 7198, 1012, 1025, 1066, 10106, 1162, 11101, 1233, 12108, 1314, 1336, 149, 1410, 1620, 1686, 1711, 1752, 1757, 1767, 1771, 17110, 1814, 1828, 1857, 1948, 1948, 2190, 2212, 2213, 2262, 2273, 23117, 2514, 2568, 2672, 26213, 2825, 2841, 2888, 2942, 3121, 3130, 3216, 356, 3513, 3514, 3518, 3540, 37125, 3851, 398, 3938, 4020, 4026, 4041, 4041, 4042, 4042, 4043, 4066, 4074, 415, 4148, 4213, 4386, 4455, 464, 465, 4735, 5228, 546, 578, 7017, 7218, 7219, 7220, 8411, 9617, 9618
impv. 223, 261, 268, 269, 270, 260, 729, 755, 756, 7134, 7180, 7194, 7195, 1038, 1113, 16125, 1756, 17110, 17110, 2267, 2514, 2864, 2887, 335, 3422, 4014, 4049, 4050, 4060, 4065, 4215, 4349
perf. pass. 2282, 2448, 2451, 3353, 4012
impf. pass. 323, 4010, 4228, 4738, 4816, 617, 6842, 6843
n.vb. 2171, 338, 1314, 1439, 1440, 1711, 194, 1948, 2145, 2463, 2463, 2577, 2780, 3052, 3514, 4050, 4149, 4151, 465, 716
pcple. act. 2186, 20108, 3346, 4631, 4632, 546, 548adiya n.m. (pl. of da'iy) 334, 3337
dawa n.f. 75, 1010, 1010, 2115
dawah n.f. 2186, 1089, 1314, 1444, 3025, 4043
idda'a vb. ( impf. act. 3657, 4131, 6727
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages 49, 50, 51 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=d3w
Plus check the verses more before 777-79 & 791-93
Salih
773 والىا ثمود اخاهم صالحا قال ياقوم اعبدوا الله ما لكم من الاه غيره قد جاءتكم بينة من ربكم هاذه ناقة الله لكم ءاية فذروها تاكل فى ارض الله ولا تمسوها بسوء فياخذكم عذاب اليم
Wa-ila thamooda akhahum salihanqala ya qawmi oAAbudoo Allaha malakum min ilahin ghayruhu qad jaatkum bayyinatunmin rabbikum hathihi naqatu Allahi lakum ayatanfatharooha ta/kul fee ardi Allahi walatamassooha bisoo-in faya/khuthakum AAathabunaleemun
And to Thamud, We sent their brother Saleh, he said "My people, serve God, you have no god besides Him; clarity has come to you from your Lord, this is the camel of God, in her you have a sign, so leave her to eat in God's earth, and do not harm her, else the painful retribution will take you."774 واذكروا اذ جعلكم خلفاء من بعد عاد وبواكم فى الارض تتخذون من سهولها قصورا وتنحتون الجبال بيوتا فاذكروا ءالاء الله ولا تعثوا فى الارض مفسدين
Waothkuroo ithjaAAalakum khulafaa min baAAdi AAadin wabawwaakumfee al-ardi tattakhithoona min suhooliha qusooranwatanhitoona aljibala buyootan faothkurooalaa Allahi wala taAAthaw fee al-ardimufsideena
"And remember that He made you successors after 'Aad, and He established you in the land so that you make palaces on its plains, and you carve homes in the mountains. So remember the grace of God, and do not roam the earth as corrupters."775 قال الملا الذين استكبروا من قومه للذين استضعفوا لمن ءامن منهم اتعلمون ان صالحا مرسل من ربه قالوا انا بما ارسل به مؤمنون
Qala almalao allatheenaistakbaroo min qawmihi lillatheena istudAAifooliman amana minhum ataAAlamoona anna salihanmursalun min rabbihi qaloo inna bima orsilabihi mu/minoona
The leaders who were arrogant from among his people said to those who were weak and believed from among them "How do you know that Saleh was sent from his Lord?" They said "It is in that which he has been sent that we believe."776 قال الذين استكبروا انا بالذى ءامنتم به كافرون
Qala allatheena istakbaroo innabiallathee amantum bihi kafiroona
Those who were arrogant said "In that which you believe, we reject!"777 فعقروا الناقة وعتوا عن امر ربهم وقالوا ياصالح ائتنا بما تعدنا ان كنت من المرسلين
FaAAaqaroo alnnaqata waAAatawAAan amri rabbihim waqaloo ya salihui/tina bima taAAiduna in kunta minaalmursaleena
They thus killed the camel and defied the command of their Lord, and they said "O Saleh, bring us what you promised us if you are of the messengers!"778 فاخذتهم الرجفة فاصبحوا فى دارهم جاثمين
Faakhathat-humu alrrajfatu faasbahoofee darihim jathimeena
The earthquake took them, thus they became lifeless in their home.779 فتولىا عنهم وقال ياقوم لقد ابلغتكم رسالة ربى ونصحت لكم ولاكن لا تحبون الناصحين
Fatawalla AAanhum waqala yaqawmi laqad ablaghtukum risalata rabbee wanasahtulakum walakin la tuhibboona alnnasiheena
Thus he turned away from them, and said "My people, I have delivered to you the message of my Lord and advised you; but you do not like the advisers."Shuayb
785 والىا مدين اخاهم شعيبا قال ياقوم اعبدوا الله ما لكم من الاه غيره قد جاءتكم بينة من ربكم فاوفوا الكيل والميزان ولا تبخسوا الناس اشياءهم ولا تفسدوا فى الارض بعد اصلاحها ذالكم خير لكم ان كنتم مؤمنين
Wa-ila madyana akhahumshuAAayban qala ya qawmi oAAbudoo Allaha malakum min ilahin ghayruhu qad jaatkum bayyinatunmin rabbikum faawfoo alkayla waalmeezana walatabkhasoo alnnasa ashyaahum walatufsidoo fee al-ardi baAAda islahiha thalikumkhayrun lakum in kuntum mu/mineena
And to Midyan, their brother Shu'ayb, he said "My people, serve God, you have no god besides Him. Clarity has come to you from your Lord, so give full weight and measure, and do not hold back from the people what belongs to them, and do not make corruption on the earth after it has been set right. That is better for you if you believe."786 ولا تقعدوا بكل صراط توعدون وتصدون عن سبيل الله من ءامن به وتبغونها عوجا واذكروا اذ كنتم قليلا فكثركم وانظروا كيف كان عاقبة المفسدين
Wala taqAAudoo bikulli siratintooAAidoona watasuddoona AAan sabeeli Allahi man amanabihi watabghoonaha AAiwajan waothkuroo ithkuntum qaleelan fakaththarakum waonthurookayfa kana AAaqibatu almufsideena
"And do not stand on every path, robbing, and turning away from the path of God those who believe in Him, and you seek to make it crooked. And remember that you were few and He multiplied you; and see how is the retribution of the corrupters."787 وان كان طائفة منكم ءامنوا بالذى ارسلت به وطائفة لم يؤمنوا فاصبروا حتىا يحكم الله بيننا وهو خير الحاكمين
Wa-in kana ta-ifatun minkum amanoobiallathee orsiltu bihi wata-ifatun lamyu/minoo faisbiroo hatta yahkumaAllahu baynana wahuwa khayru alhakimeena
"And if a group of you believes in what I have been sent with, and a group disbelieves, then wait until God judges between us. He is the best of judges."788 قال الملا الذين استكبروا من قومه لنخرجنك ياشعيب والذين ءامنوا معك من قريتنا او لتعودن فى ملتنا قال اولو كنا كارهين
Qala almalao allatheenaistakbaroo min qawmihi lanukhrijannaka ya shuAAaybu waallatheenaamanoo maAAaka min qaryatina aw lataAAoodunna feemillatina qala awa law kunna kariheena
And the leaders who became arrogant from among his people said "We will drive you out of our town Shu'ayb, along with those who have believed with you, or you shall return to our creed!" He said "Will you force us?"789 قد افترينا على الله كذبا ان عدنا فى ملتكم بعد اذ نجىانا الله منها وما يكون لنا ان نعود فيها الا ان يشاء الله ربنا وسع ربنا كل شىء علما على الله توكلنا ربنا افتح بيننا وبين قومنا بالحق وانت خير الفاتحين
Qadi iftarayna AAala Allahikathiban in AAudna fee millatikum baAAda ithnajjana Allahu minha wamayakoonu lana an naAAooda feeha illa an yashaaAllahu rabbuna wasiAAa rabbuna kulla shay-inAAilman AAala Allahi tawakkalna rabbanaiftah baynana wabayna qawmina bialhaqqiwaanta khayru alfatiheena
"We will then be inventing lies about God if we return to your creed after God has saved us from it; and we will not return to it except if God our Lord wills, our Lord encompasses everything with knowledge, in God we put our trust. Our Lord, make an opening between us and between our people with the truth, you are the best of openers."790 وقال الملا الذين كفروا من قومه لئن اتبعتم شعيبا انكم اذا لخاسرون
Waqala almalao allatheenakafaroo min qawmihi la-ini ittabaAAtum shuAAayban innakum ithanlakhasiroona
And the leaders who rejected from among his people said "If you follow Shu'ayb, then you are losers."791 فاخذتهم الرجفة فاصبحوا فى دارهم جاثمين
Faakhathat-humu alrrajfatu faasbahoofee darihim jathimeena
The earthquake took them, thus they became lifeless in their home.792 الذين كذبوا شعيبا كان لم يغنوا فيها الذين كذبوا شعيبا كانوا هم الخاسرين
Allatheena kaththabooshuAAayban kaan lam yaghnaw feeha allatheena kaththabooshuAAayban kanoo humu alkhasireena
Those who denied Shu'ayb, it is as if they had never prospered therein. Those who denied Shu'ayb, they were the losers.793 فتولىا عنهم وقال ياقوم لقد ابلغتكم رسالات ربى ونصحت لكم فكيف ءاسىا علىا قوم كافرين
Fatawalla AAanhum waqala yaqawmi laqad ablaghtukum risalati rabbee wanasahtulakum fakayfa asa AAala qawmin kafireena
Thus he turned away from them, and said "My people, I have delivered to you the messages of my Lord and advised you. How can I feel sorry over a rejecting people?"I honestly do know how Nonmushrik came to the conclusion that Salih & Shuayb was "invoking" the dead. Because when i check the verse deeply, it didn't seem they were invoking but was in great disappointment.
Firstly when Salih said yaqawmi laqad ablaghtukum risalata rabbee wanasahtulakum walakin la tuhibboona alnnasiheena
"My people, I have delivered to you the message of my Lord and advised you; but you do not like the advisers."The phrase "walakin la tuhibboona alnnasiheena" is in present tense.
And lastly Shuayb was saying
yaqawmi laqad ablaghtukum risalati rabbee wanasahtulakum fakayfa asa AAala qawmin kafireena
"My people, I have delivered to you the messages of my Lord and advised you. How can I feel sorry over a rejecting people?"I honestly dont know how is this a polytheistic doctrine. He seemed be disappointed with a bit anger from to looks of it because if you checked the verses before 791-93, they did try to force Shuayb to come back to their creed who Shuayb said that they would be inventing lies about Allah/God (SWTAY) if Shuayb and his fellow believers would have returned to that creed. If you also check the similitude verse of 1184 to 1194 & about Shuayb's mission in Midyan & Salih's mission in Thamud of 1161 to 1169, you get more detail of these events in Midyan & Thamud at that time of Shuayb & Salih. Other than that, i fail to see a "polytheistic doctrine" even though there verses that say do not be polytheists/idolaters like 10105
10105 وان اقم وجهك للدين حنيفا ولا تكونن من المشركين
Waan aqim wajhaka lilddeeni haneefanwala takoonanna mina almushrikeena
And set your face to the system of upright, and do not be of the polytheists/idolaters.See more here http//quranix.org/s/polytheist
Salam/Peace everyone and Allah/God (SWTAY) bless you all!
