Homosexuality: A Cost To Society or Harmless
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Salaam Kyle,
I'm not sure what God made the sexual organs for but I'll give you my take on why we have them. We have them to release fluids from our bodies, both urine and sperm . They are also used to get pleasure from them. The only way these organs can pump the life germs forth is from stimulation from the pleasure we give to them. The sexual organs are very pleasurable to us, which is why we toy with them, masturbate them, manually stimulate them .
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Not everyone wants to procreate. Some would rather have a life partner.
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One may procreate without a legal binding.
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The family structure is a cultural more. Why can't a single parent, a gay couple, a straight couple be a good family structure? My single parent family works out fine and it's all good.
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God's way of how people should do things is not always right for all people since people obviously work out just fine doing things not ordained by God.
Joe
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Peace be upon you Joe,
I'm not sure what God made the sexual organs for but I'll give you my take on why we have them.
What do you mean your not sure? Do you know what the heart is for? The Lungs? The Liver? Why is there uncertainty when we look at the sexual organs? All we have to do is to observe them to see what they are for.
We have them to release fluids from our bodies, both urine and sperm .
Correct.
They are also used to get pleasure from them.
Yes, it makes sense that the method of CREATION is pleasurable. We do not get this pleasure when we use these organs to release waste.
The only way these organs can pump the life germs forth is from stimulation from the pleasure we give to them.
YES! the stimulation NATURALLY ends with a RESULT, what is the RESULT? Ejaculation of Sperm (dealing just with the male for right now). EVERYONE has sex to reach this ENDING(effect). What is the PURPOSE of this EFFECT? What is SPERM for? Is it a facial creme? Some kind of lotion? WHat is it for?
The sexual organs are very pleasurable to us, which is why we toy with them, masturbate them, manually stimulate them .
Yes, so that the EJACULATION will come and we can be at total REST/RELAXATION/PEACE. It is a calming effect, yet the SPERM has been ejaculated for a REASON.
- Not everyone wants to procreate. Some would rather have a life partner.
This deals with likes and dislikes, therefore emotions. We cannot live life by our DESIRES(likes and dislike) we must live according to the PLAN, we are to SERVE the God. This reading states that all the messenegrs had sposes and children, they are the examples. Using the above logic, not everyone wants to work hard for a living, some want to steal and opress, not everyone wants to eat healthy, some want to live off of hugs and potato chips, not everyone wants to be forgiving, some want to kil others. So we cant go by what a person might DESIRE(like or dislike).
- One may procreate without a legal binding.
Yes, I am not here to discuss legal bindings, only the perversity of homosexuality.
- The family structure is a cultural more. Why can't a single parent, a gay couple, a straight couple be a good family structure? My single parent family works out fine and it's all good.
My single parent situation worked out fine as well, but that is not always the case. A child needs male and female influences, life was harder for my mother being a single parent. I have a daghter who is with her mother and it does not allow me to have as much influence in her life as I would if we were together. I see women use children as TOOLS to get back at the man and vice versa. I don't have all of the research of such situations in frontg of me, but we can discuss the pros and cons of a family unit versus single parenting.
- God's way of how people should do things is not always right for all people since people obviously work out just fine doing things not ordained by God.
God's way is not right? I don't think you are looking at the big picture. This response is similar to the response of the rejectors who say "bring the punishment if what you say is true". In time you will see which way is right.
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I see this topic pop-up every now and then, and I'm disappointed by the homophobic, hislam responses every time.
Have you not seen God creates what he wills. Have you not seen hemphorodites. What will your law do to them.
All the "men" here think they chose to be hetrosexuals, but infact they didn't. The truth is God made them that way. So you haven't abstained from any sin. You are incapable of being homosexuals.
Peace.
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Peace be upon you,
I see this topic pop-up every now and then, and I'm disappointed by the homophobic, hislam responses every time.
NO, there is no FEAR (phobia) of homosexuals, please do not give that incorrect definition. I am only speaking out against a CLEAR wrong, just as I speak out against oppression, murder, lying, being led by emotions, etc.
Have you not seen God creates what he wills. Have you not seen hemphorodites. What will your law do to them.
I would say a LAW has already effected them from the culture they were born into, not really what a law will do. Just like joined twins and the like, you cant expect them to be able to follow the same physical disciplines as a healthy human. Likewise, hermaphrodites are SIGNS of incorrect behavior, as are all perversions, like blindness, and many others. Like the polar regions where the sun does not rise and set in a balanced nature.
But getting back to the correct nature of beings, man and women are made to work together.
All the "men" here think they chose to be hetrosexuals, but infact they didn't. The truth is God made them that way. So you haven't abstained from any sin. You are incapable of being homosexuals.
You are fooling yourself in regards to the whisperer whom we seek protection from, you wrongly THINK you cant be turned into a homosexual, but if the right conditions were placed around you for the right amount of time, you would change as all things change. That is why we must GUARD OUR SALAAT (process of learning). That is why we must be mindful of the wombs(that which creates you, your culture).
Homosexuality is terribly wrong, and it is a MENTAL perversity. Just as any other perversity like lying and oppresion.
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Peace be upon you Joe,
Yes, human are clay(water and earth) and can be shaped into ANY BEHAVIOR. Thats why we watch the news in amazement and say "Wow, how could someone do this and that?"
Yes, TRUST IN IT! The Human can be CHNAGED into ANY BEHAVIOR. So we need to get busy sculpting ourselves in our world.
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I guess paedophiles and even serial killers were "born that way" too?... ?
same old responses eh, lets lump homosexuals and paedophiles, there we go problem sorted.
paedophiles are predators, even if you cut off their balls they still hurt and abuse childern, can you say they same for homosexuals, do they hurt and prey upon unsuspecting victims.
your comments are unjust.
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Follow the same science logic you presented and thats where you'll end up. 'Bad genes', anyone? I just did the same thing you did. Instead of dismissing it, try tackling it from the base, then see if my comments are unjust, or "same old". roll
- And Lot, he said to his people ?Do you commit lewdness with what no people of the worlds before you had done??
- ?You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people.?
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Follow the same science logic you presented and thats where you'll end up. 'Bad genes', anyone? I just did the same thing you did. Instead of dismissing it, try tackling it from the base, then see if my comments are unjust, or "same old". roll
no sure what you mean here bro.
- And Lot, he said to his people ?Do you commit lewdness with what no people of the worlds before you had done??
- ?You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people.?
ah, I was wondering when you'd get to Lot. There are a couple of things you need think about here.
Why aren't women addressed here. Why is the Quran quiet on this issue of female sexuality.
Secondly it is clear from verses they that men had developed predatory desires. They hunted men fox sex, there was no question about consent or about being a homosexual couple. In the end they wanted to rape Lot and his guests. They weren't asking him out on a date!
This is not homosexual behaviour which is a feeling of love directed towards other consenting homosexuals but this an aggressive crime towards non-consenting hetrosexuals.
These guys had wives at home, they were hetrosexuals practicing forced sex on other hetrosexuals.
Peace.
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Peace
Why aren't women addressed here. Why is the Quran quiet on this issue of female sexuality.
I concentrate on what is, rather than what's not. )Secondly it is clear from verses they that men had developed predatory desires. They hunted men fox sex,
yes, instead of women... ?You come to men with desire instead of women; you are a transgressing people.?In the end they wanted to rape Lot and his guests. They weren't asking him out on a date!
Perhaps that's why Lot offered his daughters?.. to get raped? ?This is not homosexual behaviour which is a feeling of love directed towards other consenting homosexuals but this an aggressive crime towards non-consenting hetrosexuals.
Actually they didn't even come for Lot, they knew what he was all about, they gave up on him, infact they wanted to expel him. The came there for 'the messengers'.These guys had wives at home, they were hetrosexuals practicing forced sex on other hetrosexuals.
I realized something a while ago... we all see what we all see... there's no forcing an understanding on anyone. We can only share and take from it what we will.God guides to the truth, all praises due to HIM.
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Peace be upon you Burhan,
same old responses eh, lets lump homosexuals and paedophiles, there we go problem sorted.
Yes, lump them together under the title "rejectors"
The sexual act, as verified by the traveling of the semen to the egg, goes from man to women, so the God merely gave us the restriction while keeping true to creation. Just like you don't see female messengers, because the message is sent out, like sperm, to the heart of the reciever(the human).
As Zenje stated, Lot offered his daughters, they rejected because they are perverse and thier incorrect beliefs about sex are ending the line of thier families. Each one of us here was blessed to have parents who followed the LAW.
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I think no-one can reasonably say that they are 'born' as something, other than as belonging to one sex or the human race.
The rest of it is definitely to do with the socio-cultural factor. The environment and life experience in interation with other humans plays the total part in the person's individual make-up and personality.
When it comes to sexual issues, I think logic tells us what each organ is for. I can only think it reasonable to assume that the male and female organ were made so as to bond together, but not just for mere pleasure, but with a purpose of reproduction.
How people go about using it though is obviously down to them and what has influenced them in their lives. But looking at it anatomically and purposefully, it can only be that the male and female have reason to be sexual partners.
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Peace All,
My neighbors had 2 male dogs that used to hump each other all the time. I wonder now, had there been a female around, would the homosexual humping have ceased.
I agree that anatomically, there is no question of whether or not homosexuality is natural. And I also agree that society plays a major role in culturing, sympathizing with, and even encouraging homosexuality.
But I'd add that there does exist the occassional mutation of genetic material.
Overall, I don't think homosexuals should be lashed out at. To each his own, I say. But when society encourages homosexuality, then this possibly drags down the potential of all of society.
Interstingly, the same Psychologist who made put together the breakthrough research which eventually removed homosexuality from the encyclopedia of mental illnesses as a treatable "disease", today feels that he was wrong for having it removed.
Peace,
Tay -
Firstly, God's prophets were not like you. They were capable of immense sacrifice to save their people.
Which is why you find it difficult to understand why he would offer his daughters.If a gang of paedophiles broke in to your house and you have no support to defend your children, would you not offer
them yourself or other adults to avoid the humiliation of your children.Can you understand what Lot was going through!!
1177/1561 The messengers arrive at Lot's;
Lot is upset and stressed out because of them.
He knows they mean business and his city (men and women) will be destroyed. But he tries to talk them out of it.1563-66 The messengers unveil their plan.
1178/1567 Lot's people/inhabitants of the city (men and women) arrive, they want the messengers.
1179/1568 Lot offers his daughter for them to "carry out their deed";
Not for marriage or to cure them of homosexuality but to become victims of their crime.
and to divert their evil attention from his guests. Lot knows if they try to rape the messengers then that will spell certain doom. He will have no room to negotiate with the messengers.1180 They say they have no right over his daughter;
Why are they talking about rights. They knew raping their own women was not what they sought, however they had
legitimised the sexual abuse of any man visiting their city. They felt it was their right.Secondly, Do you really belive that God would destroy and entire community due to the sexual orientation of the males.
If they were all gay then they would have wiped themselves out. God needn't have acted. This why traditional understanding of
26165-6 is wrong.
The truth is some had wives (26166). They were reproducing and creating more monsters like themselves, which is why God
(and not them) put an and to their lineage/seed. (1556).Think about why Lot's wife was killed; was she a homosexual aswell or was it to end the lineage.
Then men in Lot's community were heterosexuals who made it an obligation to rape male visitors to their city.
This is not too dissimilar to what we see in the prisons, where it is considered obligatory by some to rape a new comer.Please read God's sunna. See why he destroys entire nations.
Read 2931, they were called "thalimeen",
The crime was the sexual abuse of men. This is not the same as homosexuality.Finally, If you read 780-1 (2755-56) with homophobic glasses then you will only see what you mind desires. If you read it
without prejudice then you will see the truth.- Lot's people have committed something never committed before.
- The sexual abuse of women by men existed from the days of Adam.
- The sexual abuse of men to the exclusion of women was something new.
Which is why Lot utters the following.
"you commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you"
"you practise your lusts on men in preference to women"
"you are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds"Lot wasn't saying it's ok to approach any women instead of men. He's telling them that they have crossed the line by
sexually abusing men.Read 26165, it gives another clue that they were targeting heterosexual men to the exclusion of everyone else.
leaving behind their legitimate spouses.26166 And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates?
heterosexual women for heterosexual men
homosexual men for homosexual men.God creates what he wills!
peace
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Salaam,
Burhan, I did speak about this view a while ago, that it was because of their violence and not really 'homosexual tendencies' that the people were chastised, but how is it that we are not told the daughters choice in this matter. Do the rusul now abandon other decrees, that their children have the right to decide whom they will marry? What were the daughters choices in this matter, were they willing or in staunch disagreement?
Joe
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but how is it that we are not told the daughters choice in this matter. Do the rusul now abandon other decrees, that their children have the right to decide whom they will marry?
Waslaam Joe, if you read my previous post this is exactly what I saying. Lot wasn't offereing his daughters for marriage, but to divert the evil intention of his people from his guests. Which is why he wished he had the strength to stop them.
It was perhaps a bluff. The men in Lot's community already had women, they had no need of his daugthers. Lot knew that.
Lot was related to Abraham, so it does not surprise me that he would go to such lengths to save his people.
Peace.
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Peace Burhan,
As I said before, we look at the same book, and we see what we see. So all I can say is, thank you for your post, and we have different views.
Firstly, God's prophets were not like you. They were capable of immense sacrifice to save their people.
Which is why you find it difficult to understand why he would offer his daughters.If a gang of paedophiles broke in to your house and you have no support to defend your children, would you not offer
them yourself or other adults to avoid the humiliation of your children.Let me ask you this though, do you see the contradictions you posted in this quote alone? Just read it again and take your time. No need to reply.
Also, in your opinion, why were any if the people (Aad, Thamud, etc.) annihilated? Was there a main reason mentioned, among other reasons? Just curious, not setting up another debate.
Peace
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As I said before, we look at the same book, and we see what we see.
D Yep thats what I said as well.
I also remember I used to read the same quran and never realised not to associate other Gods with God. I used to read it think it was ok beat women. I used to read it and never misunderstood rules of war.
I used to misinterpert Lot's story in those days aswell. You can probably find my views from those days on 19.org somewhere. Ironically not that different from yours at all.
I don't post to start debates or to force a change of opinion.
I took me five years to change mine.I only post to say what hasn't been said or when a discussion is very one sided.
Please don't think I'm trying to change your views D I really don't want the burden.Peace.