The great secret of Islam - the hidden history of Islam revealed
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The muslim tradition claims the zam zam well is as old as Abraham and Hagar. There is however no historical source backing this up.
The judeo-christian hajj (hag in Hebrew) was to Jerusalem. There is no record of pilgrimage towards Mecca before the time Muawiya. It's not known if the zam zam well was dug by Muawiya or by who whatsoever.
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Buddy, not sure I follow your logic. You are sure of other things to cite from history yet you did not find how the well was created?
Are we to believe only your sources all of a sudden? If this was so black and white as you have put it, then sure many historians from both sides would have mentioned these facts, esp the ones the makkah did not exist?
Even the shia did not debate it while you claimed they branched out as a result of muwaiya starting wars against the two sons. Definitely shia sect must have known there was no makkah and muwaiya made it up, yet they do not follow your logic?I am only being critical to get my answers and no way disrespectful to your theses.
cheers
The muslim tradition claims the zam zam well is as old as Abraham and Hagar. There is however no historical source backing this up.
The judeo-christian hajj (hag in Hebrew) was to Jerusalem. There is no record of pilgrimage towards Mecca before the time Muawiya. It's not known if the zam zam well was dug by Muawiya or by who whatsoever.
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The Second Civil War (680-685) the explosion of the primo-Islam
It is certainly not easy to succeed an absolute monarch father, much less in the conditions in which Yazid came to power. He is indeed the first caliph to draw his legitimacy from a dynastic succession - his predecessors were all imposed by their rank, their determination, even by coup. Inevitably, his authority is questioned by many factions, claiming to belong to a multitude of currents Qorechite supporters of their own clans, not recognizing Yazid (yet Qorechite themselves), families and supporters of former leaders and caliphs who were assassinated, especially the followers of Ali and his son Hussein (who will also be murdered during the fitna), supporters of Ali being turned against him (the Kharijites), supporters of Ali opposed his son Hussein, supporters of the great governors
in the Empires territories, dissatisfied with the Umayyad tyranny, mercenaries of the regime, warlords seceding as well as an alternative ... a self-proclaimed caliph. An imbroglio even more complex than the political motivations which feed the religious nature of the objections, justifying them in turn. And as we now know that they are consubstantial with the "religion of Abraham" since it failed to return the Messiah in Jerusalem, as we know that they are growing and multiplying with every succession it has suffered since then, we understand a little better the recurrent phenomenon of civil war, a phenomenon that seems to have no end.In particular, the caliph will be challenged by his being opposed to the figure of the former leader who galvanized the heroes of the Hegira, of which some still remembered his role in preaching the "religion of Abraham". The ringleader, nicknamed Muhammad (Muhammad), did however bring nothing new, but only transmitted the judeonazarene doctrine. But nearly seventy years had passed since the first conquest of Jerusalem (614), about fifty since his death. The relative oblivion into which he fell and especially erasing from it the jud?onazarene masters allowed teachers to embellish the accounts which recalled his memory . Since he preached, why not believe and make believe he was a God sent a "Rasul" ? So here comes the invention of prophethood which subsequently allowed the Qur'anic text to be understood as a new revelation. Historically, Muhammad's preaching in contrary never contained any of that. He was only indirectly linked to memory aid texts in Arabic which reproduced the various preachings of the judeo-nazarenes, and from which developed then painstakingly the Koranic collection (one can see in these sheets originally the work by the person who the Islamic tradition called Waraqa). About the years 680 and appear for the first time mentions of Muhammad, called "Rasul", among the supporters of Ali and his son who oppose frontally the power of the Caliph. It is well worth having with you the authority of a messenger of God when challenging one who claims to rule on behalf of God. And it seems even more convenient to associate the memory of Ali with Muhammad, his cousin, his stepfather, his former commander and comrade, the late Ali is no longer there to testify, 20 years after his assassination. Didn't he himself have, in the days of his caliphate, to better establish his authority and to silence his opponents, Muawiya in mind! These considerations do not stop the partisans of Ali, nor the other opponents of the Caliph. They find, by exploiting the authority they decide to grant to the "Rasul", a very effective way to reject the authority of the caliph (Yazid), of the hated Umayyad lineage, their eternal nemesis. In response, obviously, the Caliphate will affirm the superiority of its authority over that of the "Rasul" . The emergence of an Arab prophecy adds to more discord within the umma. This prophecy is, as we can clearly see, only one of the results of the contradictions inherent to religious manipulation, which ferment into the political protest against the caliph. Of the boiling down of the second fitna, we must remember first the rise of Abd Allah Ibn al-Zubayr , more or less linked to Ali and Hussein, who immediately refused the authority of Yazid, and established his own caliphate in the "Sanctuary of Abraham" (Mecca). He is the first to avail himself of Muhammad. He attacks the authority of the caliph by that of the messenger of God - authority he grants himself, by presenting himself as a new "blessed" or "very rigtheous", "sent from God" by associating the phrase "Muhammad Rasul Allah "with his image on the coins he lets produce.
http//i.imgur.com/yP7Bq9v.png
Image Coins bear the profile of Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr (685/686)
The third piece, presented by Tom Holland in his documentary "Islam, the Untold Story"
(BBC ? Tom Holland). Y is marked with "mhmdrswlllh" (Muhammad messenger of God)These coins (see image) are the first "Islamic" evidence in history to mention Muhammad, dated about 685 or 686 (the term Islam is not yet being used to name the "religion of Abraham". Ibn al-Zubayr succeeds to dominate all the Hejaz up to Yemen, Iraq, Egypt and even manages to ensure certain positions in Syria. Note that the shrine built by Abraham in Mecca by Muawiya was destroyed by fire in 683 (a hazard of civil war?), and Zubayr, owner of the place, had it rebuilt in a curious form of semicircle , further proof if any were needed considering the subject of the "Ibrahim masjid" of that time.
Yazid, meanwhile, had a strong short reign without territorial expansion (rather we watched some reflux) due to the torments of civil war, and particularly the struggle facing Ibn al-Zubayr. It is reported his death was in 683 caused by a riding accident at the end of a battle against the party of Ibn al-Zubayr. What follows is a period of more trouble, on which historical truth is not certain. Muslim traditions that relate these events are very difficult to unravel as they have embellished the truth (still using the same logic of hindsight justification). The son of Yazid, Muawiya II, becomes caliph, but had given up very quickly, after four months, by refusing to oppose al-Zubayr Ibn and reluctance to shed blood in fratricidal struggles. He died shortly by natural cause . According to Muslim tradition, Marwan, his cousin, also cousin of Uthman, succeeded him, causing a change of clan in the Umayyad dynasty's reign in which he became the fourth caliph (so still Qorechite). He also died shortly after his coronation, in unclear circumstances (murdered by his wife?). The little we have of Muslim sources about these two caliphs with rather enigmatic realms is a very revealing story of a work of rewriting which is continued in the following centuries by Muslim "historians". Their first goal was to try to give the beginnings of Islam an appearance less terrible than it was, among other masking the real sources of fitna (they always reverse this logic). In general of Marwan we remember mainly the son who succeeded him in 685, the new Caliph of Damascus Abd al-Malik. He indeed will leave a strong imprint in Muslim history as a key figure in the unification of the Arab empire and the construction of the future "Islam".
This is the base material that will form the hadiths.
More than just a prophet ("nabyi" in Arabic), a "Rasul" is sent by God as a "messenger" or "apostle" to accomplish a mission (to a book). The "religion of Abraham" preached by judeonazarenes only knew of two Moses and Jesus.
644 The controversy between the Jacobite Patriarch of Syria John 1st and the Emir Said ibn Amir, governor of Homs and Muhammad's companion, not yet mention any prophet or prophecy (or Qur'an, for that matter). The patriarch Sophronius of Jerusalem does not speak of it in his chronicles that are yet very detailed. The graffiti called Islamic in Saudi Arabia do not mention it before 687re.
This is evidenced in a letter of Hajjaj, great military leader of the future Caliph Abd al-Malik, when he will be the governor of Iran.
According to some Muslim traditions, Zubayr was a young companion of the Prophet, subsequently instructed by the Caliph Uthman of the compilation and dissemination of the Quran (with Zayd). Was he also an Arab judeonazarene preacher? It could be possible, although these traditions have him born during the beginning of the Hegira.
According to Mr. Gaudefroy-Demombynes, who studied this reconstruction achieved by using Syrian and Persian works. It was at this moment that the mosaics were torn from the Sana'a cathedral and were incorporated into the pavement of the sanctuary, and that its columns were taken to be used for the bulding of the "masjid" surrounding it.
This is very questionable version of the history of the successors of Yazid proposed by columnist and "historian" Muslim Tabari (rather a man who proved to be more a manipulative hagiographer than a historian). He realized his writings in the 10th century, over 200 years after the fact. Sunni and Shia traditions have different versions of the end of the caliphate of Muawiya II -
Buddy, not sure I follow your logic. You are sure of other things to cite from history yet you did not find how the well was created?
Are we to believe only your sources all of a sudden? If this was so black and white as you have put it, then sure many historians from both sides would have mentioned these facts, esp the ones the makkah did not exist?
Even the shia did not debate it while you claimed they branched out as a result of muwaiya starting wars against the two sons. Definitely shia sect must have known there was no makkah and muwaiya made it up, yet they do not follow your logic?I am only being critical to get my answers and no way disrespectful to your theses.
cheers
There is no historical document about Mecca whatsoever of that time. So no one really knows who dug the well. Mecca is not mentioned in any historical document, not even in the charter of Medina. Add to this the floodings, hard conditions to sustain life there, it becomes very unlikely to assume Mecca has a tradition of sanctuary going back not only to that time but a millenium before it.
There was no such thing as a shia sect at that time yet. Neither was there an Islam yet. These are the very first stages that will lead to the Islam we know today. Please wait for the entire document to be translated. As it may clear up some of the questions you have right now.
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What I meant was that the shia sect has foundations where muawia played a significant role and yet shia sect later developed, did not notice the greatest act of the same person to gave birth to a new city makkah and to redirect hajj and all of the rituals.. this is something strange on shia sect scholars to have missed out.
Flooding of kaba is not a big deal, I have been to makkah several times and the whole of makka was never in the flooded zone. Besides it is not a sign to say that a certain site can not hold any religious value if it has natural issues. Tibet is one example.
of course I will wait and read but as you are using the logic to justify " no proof what so ever etc" I am also entitled to use the same logic to ask for clarifications.
As per the folks I converse with , the belief is that Kaba was the only Kibla from day one, long before Islam, there was no changing of kaba to that from Jerusalem and that word masjid aqsa used in quran actually meant prophets migration from makkah to madina as aqsa means far off place.
Going by your logic, is there substantial historical proof for men like moses and jesus to ever existed in history, that the Egypt we know of today was actually the place where the event took place. Unless there were cctv or certified publications from oxford press or perhaps mainframe computers, maybe. Else what you said will always be subject to questions.
Anyway , keep posting but I am afraid I need citations not just a story, citations from both sources not just the ones you claim.cheers
There is no historical document about Mecca whatsoever of that time. So no one really knows who dug the well. Mecca is not mentioned in any historical document, not even in the charter of Medina. Add to this the floodings, hard conditions to sustain life there, it becomes very unlikely to assume Mecca has a tradition of sanctuary going back not only to that time but a millenium before it.
There was no such thing as a shia sect at that time yet. Neither was there an Islam yet. These are the very first stages that will lead to the Islam we know today. Please wait for the entire document to be translated. As it may clear up some of the questions you have right now.
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Flooding of kaba is not a big deal, I have been to makkah several times and the whole of makka was never in the flooded zone.
Have a look at the pictures. The whole of makka was flooded on a regular basis before the Saudis took some measure (huge tanks and reservoir to absorb the floods). And even with those measure the masjid al haram gets almost flooded from time to time
You can see it here with this video from 2011 https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=L38-VLgDh80
Or just google "makka flood" and lok for the picturesPeace.
Olaf
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What I meant was that the shia sect has foundations where muawia played a significant role and yet shia sect later developed, did not notice the greatest act of the same person to gave birth to a new city makkah and to redirect hajj and all of the rituals.. this is something strange on shia sect scholars to have missed out.
The protest at that time came from many different currents among which one that indeed later gives life to the shia sect. The second fitna and civil war are clear indicators this creation of an Arab sanctuary ex nihilo encountered a lot of protest from many different sides (even among Qorechites). The later established shia sect however, as the translation will point out, is an Arab movement. Muawiya should not be confused with what later will be the Arab shia sect. The conflicts discussed in the chapter dealing with Muawiya predate the sunni-shia conflict which becomes only relevant with the establishment of the current format of Islam (starting in the 8th century, which will be covered in the next parts of the translation).
Flooding of kaba is not a big deal, I have been to makkah several times and the whole of makka was never in the flooded zone. Besides it is not a sign to say that a certain site can not hold any religious value if it has natural issues. Tibet is one example.
It does raise some serious questions however on a tradition that claims it has been a place of worship for millennia. It also is incompatible with the fruits etc described in Quran; making it even less likely to have a history pre-Muawiya (not on a trade route, arid environment, not mentioned in contemporary documents not even the Medina charter, not mentioned on "Islamic" graffiti, not used on coins, etc etc).
of course I will wait and read but as you are using the logic to justify " no proof what so ever etc" I am also entitled to use the same logic to ask for clarifications.
As per the folks I converse with , the belief is that Kaba was the only Kibla from day one, long before Islam, there was no changing of kaba to that from Jerusalem and that word masjid aqsa used in quran actually meant prophets migration from makkah to madina as aqsa means far off place.The archaeology on the field contradicts what you believe. The excavations of old mosques all show distinct qibla's towards Jerusalem/Syria, which have been changed later towards Mecca.
Going by your logic, is there substantial historical proof for men like moses and jesus to ever existed in history, that the Egypt we know of today was actually the place where the event took place. Unless there were cctv or certified publications from oxford press or perhaps mainframe computers, maybe. Else what you said will always be subject to questions.
Anyway , keep posting but I am afraid I need citations not just a story, citations from both sources not just the ones you claim.There are many citations in the essay, see eg "Meccan trade and the Rise of Islam" by Patricia Crone. The author can hardly be accused of not using source references. In my translation of the work, the footnotes take up almost 50% of the work!
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Thanks to runninglikezebras for taking time to translate the writing. Unfortunately, the original writer has merely written a soap opera capable of competing against Dallas! Reason It has way too many loopholes.
First of all, "according to tradition" does not reinforce history, but legends.
To this end, the judeonazarene propagandists, Syro-Aramaic speaking Jews, many of whom know the liturgical Hebrew, explained their texts to the Arabs. Moreover, they formed the Arab preachers, translated their texts in Arabic and taught them. For this, they created for them little textbooks, anthologies of the main texts of their Torah, their Gospel, their customs, their laws, their rites of purity, their circumcision ... It was indeed the memory aid at a time when education was essentially managed and transmitted by heart the main memory aids consisted of translations into Arabic language used by the judeonazarenes themselves. A lectionary is a liturgical book that presents readings and comments from sacred texts, as always Christian. The judeonazarene lectionary therefore presented excerpts from the Bible, Old and New Testament - for as much the judeonazarenes accept it - in function of the calendar (Saturday, Sunday, holidays). In Syro-Aramaic Christians called this lectionary "qor'?no" (which translates in Arabic as "Qur'an", that is to say, "Koran".
Since he preached, why not believe and make believe he was a God sent a "Rasul" ? So here comes the invention of prophethood which subsequently allowed the Qur'anic text to be understood as a new revelation. Historically, Muhammad's preaching in contrary never contained any of that. He was only indirectly linked to memory aid texts in Arabic which reproduced the various preachings of the judeo-nazarenes, and from which developed then painstakingly the Koranic collection
A new revelation that rhymes, can be memorized entirely by a 3 year old, finishes talking about 71 people exactly in 71 words and has built in firewall?
Too bad that they didn?t keep the preaching ?we are god?s chosen people? in that book. It would have made things far easier in their conquest missions. Its also a great foolish thing to not add a verse ?Obey Allah, messenger and rulers?.They undermine the ideological unity and promote differences. They disrupt hierarchies and compromise the fragile agreement of the ummah considering the project of conquest of Jerusalem. Naturally, leaders, generals, emirs had to rebel, one could say thanks to the military successes which enabled them to acquire great power - some are now governors of the territories they conquered, out of reach of authority altogether questionable Arab generalissimo. Without judeonazarenes, where would it take them?
The rejection of the entire judeonazarene community, the abandonment of the temple, the intrusive collection of texts, rewriting them to root out the judeonazarene facts, in short, the damage to the "religion of Abraham" that this operation represents causes a real outrage in face of the propaganda which took decades to establish itself. Contempt of the very meaning of the fighting, the epic of the conquest of Jerusalem. Violating memories and even an affront to the will of God as the "religion of Abraham". There is therefore naturally lack of understanding, resistance, opposition. This reasoning allowed to deny the authority of Omar, which was accused of being a Munafiq, a traitor to the faith ... These are the roots and the beginning of the incessant fitna, the civil war that bloodied the Ummah for centuries until today. It is therefore not surprising that Omar is promptly murdered in 644, only four years after the "non-event" of Jerusalem. Uthman, military leader from the core of Qorechite Emigrants and great leader of the conquest, then wins against Ali, another emigrated one, as the new master of Medina. Before the protest, while the ummah gets stuck in the quagmire of religious manipulation and the Civil War, he took control over religious power. He continues the strategy of clearing the judeonazarenes as the source of the religion of the Arab conquerors, and the resulting ostracism from the judeonazarene community in Syria. But above all, he undertook the retaking of control of politics and ideology of the ummah.
Just what I expected. Yeah, lets keep playing the conquest game even though the temperature in our location is usually 120, even though we hardly find cool water, even though our population never seems to increase, even though we hardly have a good economy, even though it can be extremely difficult to set up camp in desert without being seen from distance by our enemies, even though we might not have food after a few days of our journey to target land because there is no supermarket and vegetable plants in our sandy location, even though while walking we can?t prevent hot sand from making us suffer in the legs, even though horses can become dehydrated, even though their only alternative for us is the slow camel, even though our sun is hot enough to kill us, even though we are already divided....
Once again, I appreciate your hard work runninglikezebras.
As for the writer, it is extremely clear that he knows nothing about the geography, living standard and past economy of Middle East. But again, history has a habit of violating even laws of physics. He didn't even take time to study what is in the Quran for which his narrative about it is snake oil. This book does not claim to be new revelation.
I am done with this thread. I thought I would find something realistic. But that didn't happen.
peace
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Buddy I knew those pic since so long. However my point is that flooding is a different issue and can not be taken as an excuse or reason not to have makkah exists during the prophet's time.
Cheers
Have a look at the pictures. The whole of makka was flooded on a regular basis before the Saudis took some measure (huge tanks and reservoir to absorb the floods). And even with those measure the masjid al haram gets almost flooded from time to time
You can see it here with this video from 2011 https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=L38-VLgDh80
Or just google "makka flood" and lok for the picturesPeace.
Olaf
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After this thread, I am really interested to know the story of Makkah from History and archeological aspects? Is there a study done for this? This is a separate topic and the author should have focused on the facts rather than legends of muwaia.
I failed to understand the motive of this thread?
cheers
Thanks to runninglikezebras for taking time to translate the writing. Unfortunately, the original writer has merely written a soap opera capable of competing against Dallas! Reason It has way too many loopholes.
First of all, "according to tradition" does not reinforce history, but legends.
A new revelation that rhymes, can be memorized entirely by a 3 year old, finishes talking about 71 people exactly in 71 words and has built in firewall?
Too bad that they didn?t keep the preaching ?we are god?s chosen people? in that book. It would have made things far easier in their conquest missions. Its also a great foolish thing to not add a verse ?Obey Allah, messenger and rulers?.Just what I expected. Yeah, lets keep playing the conquest game even though the temperature in our location is usually 120, even though we hardly find cool water, even though our population never seems to increase, even though we hardly have a good economy, even though it can be extremely difficult to set up camp in desert without being seen from distance by our enemies, even though we might not have food after a few days of our journey to target land because there is no supermarket and vegetable plants in our sandy location, even though while walking we can?t prevent hot sand from making us suffer in the legs, even though horses can become dehydrated, even though their only alternative for us is the slow camel, even though our sun is hot enough to kill us, even though we are already divided....
Once again, I appreciate your hard work runninglikezebras.
As for the writer, it is extremely clear that he knows nothing about the geography, living standard and past economy of Middle East. But again, history has a habit of violating even laws of physics. He didn't even take time to study what is in the Quran for which his narrative about it is snake oil. This book does not claim to be new revelation.
I am done with this thread. I thought I would find something realistic. But that didn't happen.
peace
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@ reel
I am the author of this "soap opera". I am very thankfull to Runninglikezebras for his translation. At this point, there are many pages left to be translated, including a short quranic study.
A new revelation that rhymes, can be memorized entirely by a 3 year old, finishes talking about 71 people exactly in 71 words and has built in firewall?
Wait for the rest of the translation, you will learn how the quran has been written and rewritten by grammar, rhyme and theology specialists, which is why many muslims today find its content "miraculous". No wonder they wrote it exactly for this purpose.
As for the writer, it is extremely clear that he knows nothing about the geography, living standard and past economy of Middle East. But again, history has a habit of violating even laws of physics. He didn't even take time to study what is in the Quran for which his narrative about it is snake oil.
What good is your judgement about my book, if you haven't read it entirely ? Especially the parts about the quran ? Be patient !
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Buddy come here and I will let you meet with people who knew their town history before Islam even came.
They know every details of it from generations past generations and it is there in their old books and poems.When you see the place, trust me you would not want to live there at all. Sheer desert with no water and green around and yet they survived thousands of years.
You should see places around Makkah and overall the Saudi Arabia, and you will find more worse places to ever be lived by people but you will come to know from people and artifacts that dates back to pre-Islamic era. There is a musem in Riyadh where I saw stuff put on from all different parts of country.
My point is as Reel said, you should have conducted your study by visiting places, meeting with people, trying to understand the geography and then complete your book.
Cheers
Really ? Would you live in a place that gets flooded on regularly basis ? Who would ?
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I found something in your defense -)
http//www.religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm
The link above talks much better with reasoning from technical perspectives.
There is a faith element involved as well, some folks read the verses of Baka mentioned in Quran as Makkah while others said Bakka is completely different.
The point is that your study lacks the proof for the existence of Makkah, except the muwaia story and the statement
"Really ? Would you live in a place that gets flooded on regularly basis ? Who would ?" This can not be taken as an argument,
there are many more places on earth difficult to survive through tough time.I will continue to read your translation but we are entitled to have questions ..
cheers
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After this thread, I am really interested to know the story of Makkah from History and archeological aspects? Is there a study done for this? This is a separate topic and the author should have focused on the facts rather than legends of muwaia.
I am the author.
The work on Makkah history has been done already. Look for it in the footnotes
Maurice Gaudefroy-Demombynes Le P?lerinage ? la Mekke. ?tude d'histoire religieuse, 1923 / The pilgrimage to Makka, a study of religious history (french)
Alfred-Louis de Pr?mare Les Fondations de l'Islam, 2002 / The foundations of Islam (french)
Patricia Crone Meccan trade and the Rise of Islam, Princeton University Press, 1987 & How did the quranic pagans make a
living ? (article http//www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/20181949)
Edouard-Marie Gallez Le messie et son proph?te, 2005 / the messiah and his prophet (french), featuring a whole file on Makka history as an appendixWith the exception of Patricia Crone's work, this did not get much publicity since all those books are not "islamicly correct" and therfore not "politically correct". Which is why very few people know about the real history of Makka.
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My point is as Reel said, you should have conducted your study by visiting places, meeting with people, trying to understand the geography and then complete your book.
This is not my point, this is not my position. Let me be clear I am no scholar, no researcher. I am only a writer who tries to publicize / popularize the work of many real scholars and researchers (who have gone on the field - like Christian Robin, head of the arabic archaelogical studies of french CNRS). Mainly, my book is based on Edouard-Marie Gallez's thesis "Le Messie et son Proph?te / the Messiah and his Prophet". Look for his website here http//rootsofislamtruehistory.com/
Peace.
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The point is that your study lacks the proof for the existence of Makkah, except the muwaia story and the statement
"Really ? Would you live in a place that gets flooded on regularly basis ? Who would ?" This can not be taken as an argument,
there are many more places on earth difficult to survive through tough time.I will continue to read your translation but we are entitled to have questions ..
cheers
Of course, my book raises many questions. I'll be happy to answer them as long as my poor english skills allow it.
But tell me, are they really many more places on earth mor difficult to survive than Makka ? Think about it
- no plants
- no wood
- no agriculture
- no game
- no food at all
- desert heat
- floods
Even the eskimos get to hunt seals or catch fishes ...
Everything in Makka had to be brought by camel back, from food, wood, heat materials to construction supplies (and it still has to be brought today ... Makka still doesn't produce anything at all). And we find no trace, absolutely no trace of all this trade in the ancient sources. The first mentions to a "city in the desert" date from Muawiya. Those are very scarce, very poor sources. The details about Makka start to appear in sources from the 8th century.
Tx for the link !
Peace.
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Yes I do follow your logic buddy but my issue is the following.
You are just compiling some works done by other authors (not recognized by Islamic world) and come up with your version of The great secret of Islam...without verification and visits to these places (you can't enter Makkah but you can enter Riyadh and see the great museum there) don't you think there could be an element of flaw in your sources which in turn mean your work could have flaws too ?? What would you say to this?
Most of the country has the following characters not just makkah. Especially Riyadh barren dry land , but I have been told by locals about pre Islamic era existed here, and there is a town here called Kharj (off 150 kms) which dates back to before prophet's time.
The famous false prophet guy Musaylimah al-Kaddhab was from here and people have his poems and books kept in tact. He came from a place called yamama in Njad(now Riyadh) and this area has all the things which you mentioned below.- no plants
- no wood
- no agriculture
- no game
- no food at all
- desert heat
- floods
From May to end of Sept the avg temp here is in 40s. And now people can live with all of the modern stuff that comes imported but a century ago, it is the sample place as if thousands years ago.
cheers
Of course, my book raises many questions. I'll be happy to answer them as long as my poor english skills allow it.
But tell me, are they really many more places on earth mor difficult to survive than Makka ? Think about it
- no plants
- no wood
- no agriculture
- no game
- no food at all
- desert heat
- floods
Even the eskimos get to hunt seals or catch fishes ...
Everything in Makka had to be brought by camel back, from food, wood, heat materials to construction supplies (and it still has to be brought today ... Makka still doesn't produce anything at all). And we find no trace, absolutely no trace of all this trade in the ancient sources. The first mentions to a "city in the desert" date from Muawiya. They are very scarce, very poor sources. The details about Makka start to appear in sources from the 8th century.
Tx for the link !
Peace.
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@ Fusion
I am not "just compiling". I read, I listened, I understood, and I worked with Edouard-Marie Gallez to write my book.
The sources and arguments are scientific, logical, rational. There is no belief involved, only pure logic and scientific experimentation process 1) analyse available data, 2) state an hypothesis, 3) test it upon the facts that are known fore sure, and 4) assert it or repell it based on the results. There might be flaws which the scholars (and also I) haven't seen. Then tx for pointing them to me. I do not pretend to have "THE" truth, but only to present an hypothesis that is much much much more probable than the islamic story.
I considered also the islamic sources. They cannot compete with the historical data, they are mostly legend (based somehow on facts, but rewritten in order to fit an islamic point of view). For example, consider the story of the Elephant Battle. Sura 105 tells us about the "people of the elephant", who were beaten in a battle. The s?ra tells us that it occured before Muhammad's time, when an abyssinian king came with a war elephant to Makka to destroy the Kaaba. This can't be no elephant can cross the arabian desert. An elephant needs to drink at least 120 liters of water a day (and even more in a desert ...). Hence, this story from the s?ra (the hypothesis) does not fit the facts (deserts are too hot for elephants who need lots a water), and so it is a false story, a legend. Sura 105 must then mean something else ... Who were the people that used war elephants in late antiquity ? Who were those people that the Qurayshites might have encountered, given the Qurayshites lived in northern Syria ?
It's the same with the legend of the preislamic Makka the islamic hypothesis does not fit the known data ... We know of no ancient city built in a place without the means to sustain life (including trade activities). The places you mentionned (Riyadh, Kadhr) were not as barren a land as Makka there was water enough, recorded trade activity, oasis lifestyle. There were fruit trees and orchards in ancient Riyadh. Nothing like Makka where life cannot endure without help and supply from the outside (even the zam zam well is suspicious due to the regular flooding of the well, zam zam water is often poisoned, not fit for human or beast - there are numerous reports of pilgrims becoming badly sick because they drank this water !)
Peace.
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My hypothesis of the origins of the zam zam well are as following...
Given the Mecca sanctuary was created ex nihilo to replace the sanctuary in Jerusalem, it used in its architecture among others a mimicry of the second Temple that used to stand in Jerusalem on Temple Mount.
This is what most experts agree the second temple used to look like (reconstruction)
http//www.judaism-islam.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/beit-ha-mikdash.jpg
This is the Masjid al Haram in Mecca
http//www.judaism-islam.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/masjid-al-haram.jpg
The similarities need little explanation both courtyards enclosed with walls with at its center a cubic inner sanctum.
Muslim scholars were not unaware of the similarity between the Baka in Quran and in Psalms 846
As they pass through the Valley of Baka, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
To make this verse apply to Mecca, one of course would need a well (outside of the practical need for water in an arid environment that is to receive pilgrims in the future).
The pools in the Valley of Baka have a long documented history. Still visible today are what locals refer to as the "pools of Solomon", constructed by the romans - but attributed by tradition to have a much longer history.
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/The_pools_of_Solomon_Bethlehem_ca1890.jpg/250px-The_pools_of_Solomon_Bethlehem_ca1890.jpg
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Solomon%27s_pools2.jpg/250px-Solomon%27s_pools2.jpg
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Solomonspool3_n.jpg/250px-Solomonspool3_n.jpgThese pools had the function to provide the many pilgrims at the second temple with water as shown in this image of aqueducts carrying the water to temple mount using gravity alone.
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Roman_aqueduct_from_Pools_of_Solomon_to_Jerusalem.jpg/250px-Roman_aqueduct_from_Pools_of_Solomon_to_Jerusalem.jpg
For more info on this water system of the second temple see http//www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-jerusalem-temple-mount-threshing-floor-aqueduct.htm
I would also like to ask those who have questions to state those in a respectful way. Olaf has put much effort in crosschecking and source referencing his work, and it is hardly fair to judge (even accuse) the author based on a partial translation which is still in progress and far from perfect.
