Shouldn't we BE LIKE GOD?
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Peace.
Dear QSX, I have not been as active on this forum lately, so it?s good to come back and hear that you have read all of my posts! I would very much like to disregard the differences between us, and try to see where the problem lies, and go on from there. If you believe that hadith books are correct and that my approaches to the issues presented have been biased or unfair in anyway, then please forgive me for offending you and I will pray that the God helps the both of us. I strongly urge you to cooperate so that we may begin discussion in an appropriate section of the forum, so the truth is reached, whether it is me that changes or you.
If in the event that you do not wish to engage in constructive discussion with me, then feel free to read or participate in this forum in a just manner. If you still insist on insulting me or indeed anyone else on this forum, then I suggest you open a thread in the trash section just to release your anger, that way you will feel better, and these threads that are being used to search for the truth will remain free from your bad language.
I believe it should have become quite clear to you by now from posts that my brothers and sisters on this forum have directed towards you that it would be best if you made a significant improvement to your approach. I am in no way hindered by your insults, and In case you think I am going to find your remarks offensive in any way, then may I make it clear to you that this is most certainly not the case, and I?ll bring it to your attention that I have the ability to curse you to such an extent that your fingers will never dare type ?free-minds? on your keyboard again in your life, but I am taking a peaceful and civilised approach to you because unlike you I would hate to go out and insult a person new to me, and cursing someone for their views is not what the God advocates, nor is it what I stand for. I intend to make bonds, not break them, as you are out to do.
I hope you realise that I really do not approve of your floaty arguments without Quranic basis, which many would agree is what you are doing. For what you have said to me and about me so far, I forgive you and request that other forum members do so as well, so that you may begin a search for the truth, something everybody else on this forum is doing. I invite you to friendship and healthy discussion, but if you decide otherwise and continue your campaign against me, then the God is indeed witness of everything, and it will no doubt act accordingly. I shall say no more. May the God guide us all.
You said ?I AGREE YOU ARE STUPID AND RETARDED THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH IS TO ABUSE YOU. YOU SERIOUSLY NEED HELP AND MAY GOD PUNISH YOU.? Please QSX, at least try to word your insults correctly, your supposed to say ?I believe you are stupid?, not ?I agree you are stupid?, because there clearly isn?t anybody before you on this thread that has said that I am stupid. And yes, may God punish me, because I?m the DEVIL?S DAD. I?ve got a stomach ache now; try not to make me laugh so much next time.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
Peace.
I understand what your saying brother mz357. I apologise if I?ve been a bit harsh on this thread, and I really appreciate how you helped to make a fresh start. Thanks mz357.
I understand that we are not trying to compete with God, and it is not specifically forbidden to take up God?s attributes as far as our capacities enable us to (although there are a lot of things which we shouldn?t do which God hasn?t forbidden in the Quran because we have been given the logic to deduce these things ourselves, shouting at someone unjustly for example). May God forgive me and show me the right way if I?m wrong, but the biggest problem I have with this issue is that God has not told us to do this, so personally I would find it unjust to derive such a teaching, which I think is external to the Quran. The direct link I see with this issue is that of the sunni?s who try to be like Muhammad, which you could say is different because he was human, and God is God, but then again, the concept of ?sunnah? was external to the Quran, as (I believe) is this issue. It makes sense in one way that we could try to be perfect like God, whilst keeping it in the conscious mind that we can never be God, but the things that stop me from doing this are as follows
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We have already been told exactly what to do; the Quran is a complete manual for life. Personally, I think we?ve already got enough on our plates, like the commandment to abstain from lying, which I?m sure is difficult to do for many, so we could just spend more energy working on these commandments.
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Having said that it may possibly be beneficial to try to be like ?The Forgiver?, but the Quran has already given us teachings on things like that, so we needn?t have to turn to God attributes to receive this commandment.
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Although brother mz357, you are clearly conscious yourself that nobody can be God, the danger here is that many people who are exposed to this teaching may actually be harmed more than they benefit. I?m not saying that I know exactly how God will judge us, but I?m just thinking, trying to work on this teaching would make us more prone to setting up our own egos as our God.
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Even if then this teaching is accepted, the formulation of the basic objectives would be entirely subjective. So basically, we would have to try to work out what exactly we are to do, and to what extent this is achievable, for example, being almighty, different people would try in different ways, some would be righteous, some perhaps not as righteous, this is what makes it clear to me that this teaching is entirely external to the Quran, because the God says that the Quran is clear and easy to understand, which makes me reject it altogether.
I think that this issue boils down to whether we want to obey God by taking the teachings he has given us in the Quran, or if we want to do the same thing by using God?s attributes as cues for action.
So my argument isn?t that in taking up God?s attributes we would be trying to compete with him, I understand what you are saying. It?s just that I think this teaching is external to the Quran. Again, I really want to thank you for helping me get this thread back up again, and I apologise to you for anything I have said that may have made you feel a bit bad. I Look forward to hearing from you again.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
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Qsx,
Do you know what rules are? You should follow them or get the hell out of here. People that don't have respect do not belong here and I don't think anybody wishes to tell you anything, if you don't like what is being said then leave. Please leave unless you have a sound arguement against what you don't seem to understand.
Your method of abusing Natu is not going to work. What are you going to plan next? Hit him? Stone him and kill him? You react like the bad ones mentioned in the Scripture, people in this forum wish to learn and discuss in peace.
You are disturbing this peace with you CAPITAL letters and insults.
Do you read 'namaz'? Why don't you teach us and talk about the Quran? All you do is insult people, and right in CAPITALS.
If you do continue to insult then your posts will hopefully go to where they belong, in the trash! Your crap does not need to be tolerated here, they can be trashed!
Peace,
Nural
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Salaams everybody,
I believe we can try and embody/or awaken the attributes of God within each of us.
But of course we all do this for the benefit of society/others and not just ourselves/our ego.
I believe the whole of nature around us works in accordance with Gods attributes and not in opposition to them so if we do like wise we are in a way making SJD to the almighty as well like all things in nature.
I think we can all see we do embody these attributes ? irrespective of on what scale.
We may be on the side of attributes which may be opposite to Gods attribute some times , and this is when we will be on the wrong/weak side in comparison to someone who may be on the side/or who embodies ,Gods attribute.
Like if you lie or are on the side of someone who lies ?thus you are siding with the attribute opposite to God so naturally you will be in a seriously weak position.
Someone trying to create, and the other trying to destroy, I am sure you can think similarly.
Regarding advancement
In Pakistan there is a lot of bribery and the Koreans have put computer systems at either side of the motorway so people can?t cheat/lie regarding the toll taken- so even systems can be implemented to improve embodiment of Godly attributes.
People have set up CCTV systems ? So they are attributing to the all seeing e.t.c thus advancing in security by being aware to the truth/reality.
But of course they are used for the benefits for all and in line with Gods laws.
Quranic Dictionary
Abada ? to accept the impression of a thing/to serve/worship/adore
Ibadat ? The impress of divine attributes and imbibing and reflecting them on one?s own person.Hence QD agrees.
002.138
YUSUFALI (Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah And who can baptize better than Allah? And it is He Whom we worship.
PICKTHAL (We take our) colour from Allah, and who is better than Allah at colouring. We are His worshippers.
SHAKIR (Receive) the baptism of Allah, and who is better than Allah in baptising? And Him do we serve.
Sibghata = Baptism =Religion/Nature/Attribute e.t.c; in the quran the attributes of God and his law are called Gods Sibgha.Salaams.
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Peace ?M? (Can I call you this from now? Saves a bit of effort),
I myself think that the world around us works in accordance with God?s laws, perhaps not in accordance with God?s attributes as such. This point brings me back to something I said in my last post
?I think that this issue boils down to whether we want to obey God by taking the teachings he has given us in the Quran, or if we want to do the same thing by using God?s attributes as cues for action.?
Secondly, I personally don?t think doing something bad is necessarily a result of opposing an attribute of God, I think it?s just a matter of rejecting God?s laws, which are clearly detailed in the Quran, i.e. everything we need to do - we are clearly commanded to do.
I think it makes more sense to see the implementation of road side computer systems in Korea and CCTV systems not as steps forward to work towards God?s attributes, but measures to get people to obey God?s laws, which are clearly set out in the Quran. Taking CCTV for example, that?s clearly a good thing, not because it holds resemblance to God?s attributes of all-seeing, but because it reduces the breaking of God?s laws. If even then we consider CCTV in relation to ?all-seeing?, perhaps the intentions of the implementers of this system aren?t to prevent evil deeds, but to invade the general public?s privacy!
Now we come to the point when I thought ?yeah, this is it, this it what?s going to make me realise that I was arguing in the air against the Quran, this is what?s going to get me to rest with M?s conclusion?, and then I set about taking a more in-depth look at the verse you have just mentioned. It appears that this verse has been translated quite broadly. Now, I?m not an Arab, so I would appreciate the comments/suggestions of Arab readers on my analysis of this verse, may the God show me the truth if I am wrong.
Firstly, M, I really like what you did, in bringing out the meanings of the Arabic, words, otherwise we?d be running around in circles for God knows how long! It appears that there are a number of meanings of these words, and taking ?abada? as ?to accept the impression of a thing? and taking ?sibghata? as ?attribute? gives rise to the concept of taking up God?s attributes.
Now, personally, I?m a fan of root word analysis, so I would have taken that approach, but this approach is not popular with everybody, and I simply can?t because I don?t have access to a lexicon (if anyone knows how I can get my hands on a cheap/free lexicon please sort me out), so this approach is not possible for me. I must firstly declare that if the Quran dictionary you have used is sound, then there is a good possibility that we could see through direct inference from this verse that we are to take up God?s attributes, as an indirect command in the Quran, and I am ever willing to change my views to support the truth. However what makes me think otherwise is when I look at this verse in context
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And they said ?Be Jews or Nazarenes so that you may be guided!? Say ?No, rather the creed of Abraham, monotheism; for he was not of those who set up partners.?
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Say ?We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we surrender.?
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So, if they believe exactly as you have believed, then they are guided; but if they turn away, then they are in opposition and God will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearer, the Knower.
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Such is God?s coloring, and who better than God in coloring. And to Him we are in service. (Progressive Muslims translation)
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Say ?Do you debate with us regarding God? He is our Lord and your Lord, and we have our work and you have your work, and to Him we are believers.?
Now looking at this verse in context reveals a totally different picture, which is why I have now reverted back to my original position on this issue. It appears to me now that in this context (discussion on believing and not believing) the verse is clearly talking about how God has ?coloured/baptised? some of us into believing, and some of us into disbelief, and that God is the best in getting people to believe. This is how I understand the verse, and I would really appreciate it if somebody could get a root word analysis going for this verse, as I?ve mentioned already, I?m a root word fan. So I did, as a result of M?s last post, begin to see my own position as a bit shaky, because I thought this verse was going to change the way I think, however, a closer look has shown me that this is not the case. I?ll stress again that I?m a non-Arab, so I?ll be more than happy if anyone proves me wrong or right in my understanding, the fact is, we?ll all be closer to the truth that way, but as it stands, I am convinced that we shouldn?t work righteousness using God?s attributes as cues for action, but by simply using the direct and clear commandments God has given to us in the Quran.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
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Salaams Natu,
I can never- i think get the hang of writing/reading long posts,however
Innama taAAbudoona min dooni Allahiawthanan watakhluqoona ifkan inna allatheenataAAbudoona min dooni Allahi la yamlikoona lakumrizqan faibtaghoo AAinda Allahi alrrizqa waoAAbudoohuwaoshkuroo lahu ilayhi turjaAAoona
"For ye do worship idols besides Allah, and ye invent falsehood. The things that ye worship besides Allah have no power to give you sustenance then seek ye sustenance from Allah, serve Him, and be grateful to Him to Him will be your return.
I am going to look at this from a different perspective.
You said
?I think that this issue boils down to whether we want to obey God by taking the teachings he has given us in the Quran, or if we want to do the same thing by using God?s attributes as cues for action.?I think we should be serving each of the attributes , as we serve the name Allah because those are his names as is Allah aren?t they? But obviously with his laws/rules in mind.
This however takes us a one step in a different light.
What is Shirk?
Is it then Allah = Truth therefore Lie=partner,so to tell alie is associating.
Allah = Holy , Sin=partner
Allah = Giver , Nigerdly =Partner
e.t.cAny thoughts?
I think this would eliminate the misconceptions of idol worship,which according to this is actually a lot more and easier to comprehend . No doubts I could be wrong as this has never been suggested before ?I think.
Salaams.
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_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_Peace M.
A git wot ya min bruv, dis debate iza goin on for too lung now me thinks, so a sez we kip deeza posts short now, innit?
Sorry about that, just thought the language might brighten the thread up a bit. I?m getting a bit tired as well, but I?m determined to see us both end with the same conclusion, and I presume you doo too, wollawimbledidoodidoo?
I don?t see how we?re going to serve God?s attributes. I think it makes a hell of a lot more sense if we serve God instead wink.
Chill bro, if its not been suggested before doesn?t mean your wrong, but personally, I don?t think when we lie we are setting up an idol besides God; otherwise every single soul on this Earth is an idol worshipper! We?re only falling into Satan?s trap, unless we are concealing the truth in ?kindness?. Idolatry is the ascribing of power to something other than God, or loving something more than God. Myself and brother snowcotton have discussed idolatry at
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3147&highlight=
you might want to have a look.
Leaving idolatry aside though, what I?m saying is that God?s attributes in the Quran, taking your inference for example, that God = truth, so we should be truthful; we don?t need to go out and infer these things, clear commandments have already been given any way, and in more detail than inferences from God?s attributes, like the permission to lie in kindness, which would not be seen in just inference through ?God = truth?.
So I?d like to ask, do you agree that the commandments given in the Quran, such as ?do not lie?, are enough of a challenge for us anyway since the Quran is fully detailed and complete? Your answer to this question will probably end this debate.
Peace.
Natu on the line./?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?_/?
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Salaams Natu,
I think i agree with you mostly (especially -The quran is fully detailed and complete) except you said"like the permission to lie in kindness" This i know is from certain hadiths , but i can't recall ever reading anything such as this in the quran.
Would love to see something to this extent ,
As you said
God =Truth, so you said but we can lie in kindness but you can't cut yourself off from God to be kind surely? Does it make sense?
I know we do this in real life but ,it doesn't agree with our philosophy does it?
Lastly, i think if we keep Gods atributes in mind ,like create or make e.t.c and do like wise it does make us more active/full of life and thereby we do produce more or have greater output or are more efficient and we will be closer to God but if we do things the opposite destroy,break usefull things e.t.c we will be further away from him or not be able to recognise his prescence and thereby falter.
God Bless.
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Hello All,
Scritpure says that we are created in the image of God so that God could contemplate himself as if in a mirror. So perhaps we are already Divine?
Regards,
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Peace.
Apologies for taking so long to get back, I?ve been getting jammed up in another debate.
When I said ?permission to lie in kindness? perhaps I didn?t word it properly, what I was basically trying to say was that, for example, we lie when we tell someone a joke, but God knows that we don?t mean it really. So in effect we are lying but not with the intention of lying, this is totally different to lying to go against or cover up the truth.
To be honest I have realised that throughout the time we have been debating here, we?ve been wasting our energy, when there are more important things to discuss, like understanding the concept of ?Sollaa?. I think the best thing we can do is make sure we don?t fall into idol worship, whatever our opinions are, that?s the most important thing. Sorry for being the party pooper, but omar_e19?s thread at http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3267 made me realise that although I came in with the intention of avoiding another split in ideologies, this thread ended up as advertisements for personal opinion. He wisely said
?there appears to be much confusion and disunity amongst all the God fearing Quran Alone followers, to the point that much precious time is being wasted instead of advancing our common goal of spreading God?s truth?
I?m tired of this debate as I am sure mz357 is. So all I want to do now is to shake hands with mz357 and carry on with him and others in more important threads. Mz357 and me are friends, and this thread is open for whoever wants to contribute, but I must say it is getting stale now?
Peace.
Natu on the line.