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  4. The great secret of Islam - the hidden history of Islam revealed

The great secret of Islam - the hidden history of Islam revealed

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  • O Offline
    O Offline
    Olaf
    wrote on last edited by
    #131

    The Mount of Fig Trees, in Syria, still here today https//goo.gl/maps/aVLqr

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    • R Offline
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      runninglikezebras
      wrote on last edited by
      #132

      Distinguishing between the good Jews and the bad Jews

      The judeonazarenes had to explain to the Arabs what their faith consists of as opposed to that of the rabbinical Jews. At first glance, it is not clear both of them are Jews, claiming all to be of Abraham and his son Isaac, and all share the same Torah. It was necessary to explain who were the good, those who followed the true "religion of Abraham" and believed in the "Messiah Jesus", and who were the bad, those who had covered the meaning of the scriptures, the Book, by adding (and the primacy) of the Talmuds.

      | Quranic Text

      | Meaning in Islam

      | Decrypted

      | Ankabut, or the Spider
      2946. And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better
      , unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in
      that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him
      we bow ."
      2947. And thus that We have sent down the Book to thee. So the People
      of
      the Book believe therein, as also do some of these and none but
      Unbelievers reject our signs.
      (IFTA translation)

      | (pre-Hijra)
      Allah asks Muhammad to teach to Muslims the fair conduct toward other people
      of the Book, Jews and Christians they received in their time the same
      revelation as that of Muslims. It is therefore appropriate to accommodate
      those who received the Torah and the Gospel, and who, without
      submitting to forgery, remained good believers (Who is where during
      the preaching of Muhammad in Mecca? The commentators do not specify,
      redirecting it to the Jews and Christians who subsequently converted to
      Islam). They must be distinguished from those who persist in their
      disbelief, and fight the new revelation of Allah.

      | The preacher teaches his Arab audience to distinguish between good and bad believers among the People of the Book (that is to say, the Jews)

      • Among the Jews who believe in the Torah we must distinguish between good, the judeonazarenes and the bad, the unjust, those who follow Rabbinic Judaism

      • The worship of the same God and sharing the same Torah unites the judeonazarenes and Arabs converted into a community of religion, despite the difference of ethnicity.

      • The rabbinic Judaism fights against the verses of the true "religion of Abraham" by covering them ("kafara&quot.

      | Ankabut, or the Spider
      2961. If indeed thou ask them (the disbelievers) who has created the heavens and the earth and
      subjected the sun and the moon , they will certainly reply, "Allah".
      How are they then deluded away ?
      (IFTA translation)

      | (pre-Hijra)
      Allah warns Muhammad for the disbelievers and polytheists of Mecca who even if they were to acquiesce them to the Muslim faith they will end up diverting the divine commandments.

      A critical mind might notice that these are very curious polytheists given that they profess their faith in the one God

      | The preacher encourages his Arab audience (and Christian audience, affirming their faith in the single creator, God) to pay attention to the rabbinic Jews they seem to profess the same faith in the same God that judeonazarenes and converted Arabs believe in, but in reality, they do not follow the true "religion of Abraham".
      (we observe almost the same preaching in s31,25 and s39,3

      This theme of the condemnation of Rabbinic Judaism (referred to with the term "Yahud" or "People of the Book&quot is one of the major ones in the Quran. This simple observation is enough to attract our attention why should a new revelation of God supposedly given to ignorant polytheists insist on the Jews so much? What is this unspoken link in the Muslim discourse between the revelation of Allah and Judaism?

      | Quranic Text

      | Meaning in Islam

      | Decrypted

      | Al-i-Imran, or The Family of Imran
      378. There is among them (People of the Book) a section who distort the Book with their tongues you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the
      Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah It is they
      who tell a lie against Allah, and they know it!
      (IFTA translation)

      | (post-Hijra)
      Allah tells Muhammad to be wary of the perfidy of the People of the Book (context refers primarily to the Jews of Madinah) who seek to divert Muslims from the true faith by criticizing the Quran by cunning, by giving him false quotes that are nothing but lies.

      | The Arab preacher warns his flock against the rabbinical Jews who produced writings other than the written Torah, namely the Talmuds (other translations render "roll their tongue" by "returning the tongue&quot. They are liars because they attribute to God what he did not mention in the Torah.

      | Al-i-Imran, or The Family of Imran
      3113. Not all of them are alike Of the People of the Book are a community
      that stand They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long,
      and they prostrate themselves in adoration.
      (IFTA translation)

      | (post-Hijra)
      Allah affirms the superiority of Muslims, the "right community, over the Jews and Christians (the other "people of the Book&quot. Muslims are "good people" because they pray properly and apply the commandments of Allah.

      | The Arab preacher recommends its Arab audience to differentiate among the Jews (the people of the "Book", the people of the Torah) between the good and the others. The good among them are those of judeonazarene clan. They shall apply the law of God contained in the Torah, believe in doomsday and the return of the messiah, and their monks and priests get up at night to their prayer. The other, bad "people of the Book" are the rabbinical Jews (the kuffar).

      | Saff, or Battle Array
      6114. O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah As said Jesus the son of Mary to
      the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to Allah?" Said the
      disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel
      believed, and a portion disbelieved But We gave power to those who believed,
      against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed.
      (IFTA translation)

      | (post-Hijra)
      Some Jews had recognized in Jesus, in his day, a prophet of Allah, they had followed his commandments and joined the cause of Allah, while others had then rejected.
      Unfortunately, in the time of Muhammad, almost all Jews had come to disbelieve, and all had falsified their writings.

      | This verse presents with the entire Surah 61 significant manipulations of the text, well after the time of the earliest caliphs. They aimed to accredit the announcement of the coming of Muhammad by Jesus. Despite these, we can withhold from this verse that we can see the preacher distincting the Jews between those who deny, those who conceal (their sacred texts), that is to say the rabbinic Jews, and another group of Jews who want to be the true believers the judeonazarenes.

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      • J Offline
        J Offline
        Jafar
        wrote on last edited by
        #133

        The Mount of Fig Trees, in Syria, still here today https//goo.gl/maps/aVLqr

        And Becca is here, nearby, just to the south of it.
        https//goo.gl/MVaO7I

        Behold, the first House established for mankind is the one at Bakkah it is full of blessing and a centre of guidance for the whole world
        396

        And within the valley, one can find a very very very ancient temple of Baalbek..
        https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baalbek

        Aligned well with your "Syria - Lebanon originated Judeo Nazarene" group hypothesis..

        PS I ain't no Syrian or Lebanese, and I'm not even trying to "redirect" the Islam religion's Hajj festival from Mecca to somewhere else. To me the belief of "holiest place on earth" thus all people should flock to it every year, otherwise it will anger the God is absolutely ridiculous.

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        • R Offline
          R Offline
          runninglikezebras
          wrote on last edited by
          #134

          Thank you for the links, Jafar. Concerning Baalbek, there is a link inside the Quran connecting to it. See http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=108&verse=1#(10811)

          "Indeed, We, have given you Al-Kauthar "

          This is Kothar-wa-Khasis, the Ugaritic/Canaanite god whose name means "Skillful-and-Wise" or "Adroit-and-Perceptive" or "Deft-and-Clever". Another of his names means "Deft-with-both-hands". Kothar is smith, craftsman, engineer, architect, and inventor. He is also soothsayer and magician, creating sacred words and spells, in part because there is an association in many cultures of metalworking deities with magic. The god-name Ka-sha-lu in texts from Ebla suggests that he was known in Syria as early as the late third millennium BC.

          Kothar aids Baal in his battles, as recounted in the Myth of Baal, by creating and naming two magic clubs (Yagrush and Ayamur) with which Baal defeats Yam. Kothar also creates beautiful furniture adorned with silver and gold as gifts for Athirat. And he builds Baal's palace of silver, gold, lapis lazuli, and fragrant cedar wood. One of his significant actions is as the opener of the window through which Baal's rains can come and go to fertilize the earth and provide for the continuance of life.

          Kothar was the prototype for the enigmatic figure of al-Khidr in Muslim legend. In my understanding when Quran is speaking about the one who is "enveloped in thy cloak" it is referring to this enigmatic figure.

          Other references to the Baal cycle can be found in many verses of the Quran. There are lots of similarities between Baal's palace and the legend of Solomon in Quran. Not to mention the similarity of the name El is quite similar to what we find in the Quran

          Above their all characteristics, the status of Kothar can't be denied to show this continuity. Kothar is an assistant or "a servant god" in Ugaritic mythology. He helps Baal and builds a palace for him, but he is actually a "servant of supreme god EL". Thus, he is accepted as one of the divine servants in Ugarit, because Keret, son of El, is also called a "servant of El". It's a very interesting point, because according to the Quran, Khidr is "a servant of Allah" ('abd min 'ibdin&#257. Besides, the names of Allah and El are very similar to each other. It is known that they come from a common root. By the similar or common elements, it can be seen easily as part of their continuity

          PS This is my personal opinion and should not be confused with the opinion of the author.

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          • J Offline
            J Offline
            Jafar
            wrote on last edited by
            #135

            Thank you for the links, Jafar. Concerning Baalbek, there is a link inside the Quran connecting to it. See http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=108&verse=1#(10811)

            "Indeed, We, have given you Al-Kauthar "

            This is Kothar-wa-Khasis, the Ugaritic/Canaanite god whose name means "Skillful-and-Wise" or "Adroit-and-Perceptive" or "Deft-and-Clever". Another of his names means "Deft-with-both-hands". Kothar is smith, craftsman, engineer, architect, and inventor. He is also soothsayer and magician, creating sacred words and spells, in part because there is an association in many cultures of metalworking deities with magic. The god-name Ka-sha-lu in texts from Ebla suggests that he was known in Syria as early as the late third millennium BC.

            Kothar aids Baal in his battles, as recounted in the Myth of Baal, by creating and naming two magic clubs (Yagrush and Ayamur) with which Baal defeats Yam. Kothar also creates beautiful furniture adorned with silver and gold as gifts for Athirat. And he builds Baal's palace of silver, gold, lapis lazuli, and fragrant cedar wood. One of his significant actions is as the opener of the window through which Baal's rains can come and go to fertilize the earth and provide for the continuance of life.

            Kothar was the prototype for the enigmatic figure of al-Khidr in Muslim legend. In my understanding when Quran is speaking about the one who is "enveloped in thy cloak" it is referring to this enigmatic figure.

            PS This is my personal opinion and should not be confused with the opinion of the author.

            The "Becca Valley" was also mentioned in the Bible
            http//biblehub.com/psalms/84-6.htm

            Which denote it's importance during the times when Psalms was being written..

            The place known as "Baalbek" has a much older foundation than the structure built on top of it. (By the Romans).

            Another intriguing facts about such place is that
            WHY the (Pre Christian) Romans and also the Greeks bothered to set up a temple to their gods there?
            And why only there? (outside of Rome)

            The most probable hypothesis is
            The place (known as Baalbek) was already an "important religious place" to the surrounding people at that time.

            From archeological findings, the place shows signs of almost continual habitation over the last 9000 years.
            https//web.archive.org/web/20041112093441/http//www.dainst.org/index_2951_en.html

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            • R Offline
              R Offline
              runninglikezebras
              wrote on last edited by
              #136

              There is no doubt about Baalbeks status of sanctuary going back as far as history can recall. Though it raises interesting questions...

              Are these Ugaritic gods referred to as a means to an end to demonstrate the unity of God to a local phoenician/semitic culture? If this is the case, they must be very early (old) parts of the Quran, since they would predate the indoctrination of Arabs (which were in majority christian). These references to the Baal cycle are not addressing a christian or jewish community, but rather a phoenician culture.

              We know from archaeological evidence that eg Palestine never was entirely monotheistic in the time often referred to by the Torah (as the kingdom of Israel). They adhered largely to a polytheistic faith that involved a pantheon of semitic gods.

              Beelzebub
              Main article Beelzebub
              Baal Zebub (Hebrew , lit. "Fly Lord&quot occurs in the first chapter of the Second Book of Kings as the supposed name of the Philistine god of Ekron. In it, Ahaziah, king of Israel, is said to have consulted the priests of Baal Zebub as to whether he would survive the injuries from his recent fall. The prophet Elijah, incensed at this impiety, then foretold that he would die quickly, raining heavenly fire on the soldiers sent to punish him for doing so. Jewish scholars have interpreted the title of "Lord of the Flies" as the Hebrew way of calling Baal a pile of dung and his followers vermin, although others argue for a link to power over causing and curing pestilence and thus suitable for Ahaziah's question. The Septuagint renders the name as Ba?lzebo?b (&#946 and as "Baal of Flies" ( , Ba?l muian). Symmachus the Ebionite rendered it as Be?lzebo?l (&#955, possibly reflecting its original sense. This has been proposed to have been B?l Zbl, Ugaritic for "Lord of the Home" or "Lord of the Heavens".

              It seems this was a known concept in Ebionite/Judeonazarene circles as shown above... (and interestingly enough the name of Elijah -the hebrew Kothar/Khidr- pops up again - this will be material for another book I'm afraid)

              1. So also was Elias among those sent .
              2. Behold, he said to his people, "Will ye not fear ?
              3. "Will ye call upon Baal and forsake the Best of Creators,-
              4. "Allah, your Lord and Cherisher and the Lord and Cherisher of your fathers
                of old?"
              5. But they rejected him, and they will certainly be called up ,-
              6. Except the sincere and devoted Servants of Allah .
              7. And We left for him among generations in later
                times
              8. "Peace and salutation to such as Elias!"

              It seems the judeonazarene understanding of Be?lzebo?l fits the Quranic version as a glove.

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              • R Offline
                R Offline
                runninglikezebras
                wrote on last edited by
                #137

                Responding to Christian or Jewish objections

                They hard to work hard to convince the Christianized Arab audience, and even more so given the sermons of judeonazarenes and Arab preachers were not unknown to rabbinic Jews living near them in Arabia Petraea of the 5th century (modern Syria). How to respond to the objections of they are making?

                | Quranic Text
                | Meaning in Islam
                | Decrypted

                | Furqan, or The Criterion
                244. But the misbelievers (kufar) say "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged, and
                others have helped him at it." In truth it is they who have put forward an
                iniquity and a falsehood.
                245. And they say "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written and
                they are dictated before him morning and evening."
                (IFTA translation)

                |
                (pre-Hijra)
                While in Mecca, Mohammed was facing criticism from polytheistic
                Arabs who mock his preaching unfairly. They lie about it, they slander it
                claiming he would not have received revelation from Allah through
                the angel Gabriel, but that he would be a fraud.

                |
                The Arab preacher defends against criticism of rabbinic Jews (kuffar). They accuse
                him (with reason) of referring to the ancient Jewish texts which are being taught to him by
                judeonazarenes, to be merely repeaters

                | Nahl, or The Bee
                16103. We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of
                him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and
                clear.
                (IFTA translation)

                |
                (pre-Hijra)
                Allah strengthens Muhammad in face of criticism accusing him of doing
                nothing but spreading the teachings of a foreigner, while it is the angel
                Gabriel himself who speaks to him. He reminds him that the revelation
                is proclaimed in Arabic and prefigures the dogma of the inimitability
                of the Qur'an. In any case, it is unthinkable that some human
                is teaching Muhammad.

                |
                The literal translation of Hamidullah says "Yes someone teaches". There is therefore
                no question here of implicit reference to the angel Gabriel, which added later by commentators
                to obscure the inspirer of the verse, speaking the Jewish language, teaching the Arab preacher(s).
                It urges them to respond to criticism it does not teach a foreign religion but an Arab religion for
                Arabs, understandable and within reach, as it is being preached in their language.

                | Maida, or the Table Spread
                582. Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and
                Pagans ; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who
                say, "We are Christians " Because amongst these are men devoted to learning and
                men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
                (IFTA translation)

                |
                (post-Hijra)
                Allah warns Muhammad against Jews and polytheists they are the
                enemies of the Muslims! But Christians, more likely to follow the
                truth, especially the humble monks and priests, however, do not want to cause as much harm to Muslims as the first. Allah, however, forbids
                to make allies with them (see s5,51) because they are unbelievers (cf. 5.72).

                |
                The Arab preacher warns his flock to beware of Jews and Christians (associators), that are sure to
                criticize the heresy which judeonazarism means to them. This has been true since the start of the priests
                (who celebrate Mass without wine) and the devoted. They are, among the judeonazarenes (Nasara), the best examples for the rallied Arabs.

                Another translation of this verse proposed by Alfred-Louis de Pr?mare in The foundations of Islam "Those who disbelieve said," This is nothing but deception he has forged with the help of other groups! "While it is they who have produced injustice and forgery, saying" These are ancient writings that he copied because they are dictated to him in the morning and in the evening. "

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                • M Offline
                  M Offline
                  Mussabahire
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #138

                  I wonder what's the objective of Edip Yuksel to market this bunch of conspiracy theories. I have finished reading this book in french but I found nothing convincing but theories about how even the Quran is invented let alone hadeeth to support that claim. Edip, do u believe that the Quran was notes from Judeo Nazarreens?

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                  • R Offline
                    R Offline
                    runninglikezebras
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #139

                    I am not Edip. But I'm sure Edip would be shocked by the content of this book Edip still believes in a divinely flashed down Uthmanic codex (not to mention a divine revelation by Gabriel to Muhammad, arab polytheists and the prophethood of Muhammad) - without it's impossible to take any of that code 19 numerology seriously....

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                    • R Offline
                      R Offline
                      runninglikezebras
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #140

                      Implementing the politico-religious project

                      The Koran conserves for those who know how to read it edifying testimonies of attempts by the Jewish-Arab Ummah to conquer Jerusalem, to reconstruct the temple and make the messiah return there. Some details of the expedition of 614, alongside the Persians of General Romizan?s , appear in full light (sura "Fath, or Victory" the battle of Muta (629) is also mentioned (sura " Rum, or The Roman Empire&quot.

                      | Quranic Text
                      | Meaning in Islam
                      | Decrypted

                      |

                      | Fath, or Victory
                      4820. Allah has promised you many gains that ye shall acquire, and He has given
                      you these beforehand; and He has restrained the hands of men from you; that it
                      may be a Sign for the Believers, and that He may guide you to a Straight Path;
                      (IFTA translation)

                      | (post-Hijra)
                      Muhammad has launched an expedition to Mecca with his followers from
                      Medina, after having been there in a dream to perform the pilgrimage
                      (see below, in s48,27).This Surah - revealed just after the failure of the
                      expedition - wants to comfort Muhammad and his companions. In this
                      particular verse, Allah refers to the taking of the city of Khaybar
                      without a battle in 629, north of Medina, a city populated by Jews
                      (among which Jews who were expelled from Medina). This taking was
                      part of the campaigns of conquest and campaigns against the Meccans
                      led by Muhammad from Medina.
                      | In 614, Jerusalem was taken by the Persians, aided by Arabs and Jewish auxiliaries including
                      qorechite / judeonazarene alliance members. But the city was handed over to the rabbinical
                      Jews only. The Arabs-judeonazarenes thus did not benefit long from this victory, as the
                      following verses will specify (see below in s48,25).

                      |

                      | Fath, or Victory
                      4821. And other gains , which are not within your power, but which
                      Allah has compassed and Allah has power over all things.
                      4822. If the Unbelievers should fight you, they would certainly turn their backs;
                      then would they find neither protector nor helper.
                      (IFTA translation)

                      | (post-Hijra)
                      To reinvigorate Muhammad and his companions after the failure of their
                      attempt to enter Mecca, Allah is making an allusion here to the coming
                      conquest of Mecca. He pushes Muhammad to encourage the believers
                      there and not to fear the opposition of the infidels of Mecca,
                      which will eventually lose the battle.
                      | The preacher reminds the Arab troops that the purpose of the conquest of Jerusalem in 614
                      was intended to return the Messiah to establish them as elected in his kingdom ("another
                      gain.&quot. So they do not fear the new authority of the rabbinical Jews of the
                      taken city, for the return of the messiah will confuse them, and they can no longer find help
                      with Romizan?s, the General Persian leader who has restored them in Jerusalem
                      (their "protector" and "helper&quot.

                      |

                      | Fath, or Victory
                      4824. And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from
                      them in the valley of Makka , after that He gave you the victory over them. And
                      Allah sees well all that ye do.
                      (IFTA translation)

                      | (post-Hijra)
                      The refusal of the Meccans to allow access to Muhammad and his followers
                      of Medina to Mecca for the pilgrimage nearly caused a pitched battle. The
                      casus belli was finally concluded with a truce between Muhammad and
                      the Meccans (the treaty of Hudaybiya). Although difficult to accept, one
                      must consider the truce as a "triumph" as well as Allah explains in this verse.
                      In a way, it even provides for the later surrender of Mecca without a fight,
                      which will take place in 630 (see below in s48,27)
                      | The preacher refers to the episode in which we saw the rabbinical Jews oppose the
                      judeonazarenes and their Arab allies. For the latter it meant to gain access to the
                      esplanade of the temple to restore the ancient sacrifices by legitimate priests. This
                      episode seems to have occurred in one of the valleys leading to Jerusalem
                      (probably the valley of Bakka, at the very gates of Jerusalem, quoted in s3,96

                      • Muslim discourse rather wants to see an allusion to Mecca in this Bakka).

                      |

                      | Fath, or Victory
                      4825. They are the ones who denied Revelation and hindered you from the Sacred
                      Mosque and the sacrificial animals, detained from reaching their place of
                      sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not
                      know that ye were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued
                      to you without knowledge, that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will.
                      If they had been apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among
                      them with a grievous Punishment.
                      (IFTA translation)

                      | (post-Hijra)
                      Allah explains both why the city of Mecca, the place of the Holy Mosque,
                      will finally be taken without a battle (even if it is expressed in the past), and
                      why it was necessary to conclude the truce it is because there are good
                      Muslims among the Meccan unbelievers. Allah can therefore not allow the
                      Armed forces of Muhammad to conquer the city by force, at the risk of
                      killing Muslims in the melee, confusing them with unbelievers.
                      The latter nevertheless deserve their punishment
                      | The preacher explains to the Arabs why sacrificial rites (allusion is being made to detained
                      beasts ready for sacrifice) could not be carried out on the esplanade of the Temple of
                      Jerusalem (the masjid al haram), the recovery of the ancient worship by rightful priests
                      being a precondition for the return of the messiah. Rabbinical Jews have in fact prevented
                      them from doing so. The preacher justifies the inglorious retreat of Arab-judeonazarenes
                      by a pretext they would have been afraid to spill blood of Jewish friends , which
                      would have likely occured if they entered Jerusalem by force. Presumably they were also
                      afraid of being defeated by the Rabbinical Jews, who were in a position of strength
                      because of the support of Romizan?s.

                      |

                      | Fath, or Victory
                      4827. Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger ye shall enter the
                      Sacred Mosque , if Allah wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short,
                      and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a
                      speedy victory.
                      4828. It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth,
                      to proclaim it over all religion and enough is Allah for a Witness.
                      (IFTA translation)

                      | (post-Hijra)
                      Allah strengthens his messenger the promise of conquest of Mecca
                      remains valid, God can not lie the truce of Hudaybiya evoked in the
                      Islamic discourse annex to the Qur'an is only a respite. The victory
                      is near, it is even already acquired. Allah also some states the terms of the pilgrimage
                      to Mecca, still applied today.
                      | There is every reason to believe that the mention of a messenger in verse 27 is an addition
                      (it is absent in the previous verses), in contrast to verse 28 where the terms of "guidance
                      and the truth" characterize the "messenger Jesus" . Verse 29 which is supposed to
                      conclude the sura, is a long addition which quotes Muhammad by name (instead of
                      Jesus) as a messenger and presenting his disciples as realizing the prophecies of the
                      Torah and the Gospel (the change of style of verse 29 betrays it as an addition to the
                      sura, which originally ended at verse 2.
                      In verse 27, the preacher simply ensures the Arabs expelled from Jerusalem that God
                      will soon deliver the holy city to them. They must prepare for it by dedicating
                      themselves as "Nazarites" of the book of Numbers (chap. 6) who shaved their heads
                      before presenting their offerings before the tent-temple.
                      .

                      |

                      | Rum, or The Roman Empire
                      302. The Roman Empire has been defeated-
                      303. In a land close by; but they, after defeat of theirs, will soon
                      be victorious-
                      304. Within a few years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past and in the
                      Future on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-
                      305. With the help of Allah. He helps whom He will, and He is exalted in might,
                      most merciful.
                      306. the promise of Allah. Never does Allah depart from His promise but
                      most men understand not.
                      (IFTA translation)

                      | (post-Hijra)
                      (pre-AH)
                      The "neighboring country" of Mecca, even though as distant as 1300 km,
                      is regardless Palestine. Here we see a miracle of the Qur'an, Allah reveals
                      this Surah to Muhammad shortly after 614, when the Romans (Byzantines)
                      were battling throughout the Middle East with Persians (with most
                      noteworthy the capture of Jerusalem in 614). He predicts the
                      reconquest which Heraclius will be undertaking in 622, crowned by
                      the recapture of Jerusalem in 627. A victory in which Muslims
                      should rejoice because it not only validates the prediction,
                      but in addition to the evidence of this Qur'anic miracle ,
                      many Meccan polytheists will convert to Islam.
                      | A much more simple reading of this verse is needed. Rather than imagining that Muslims
                      are rejoicing a future victory over the Byzantines, we should read these verses as relating
                      to the episode of the failed conquest of 629 by the Arab-Judeonazarenes. Indeed, active
                      and passive in Arabic language are distinguished by differences in vowels , which
                      in any case are absent in the ancient texts. The reading that seems obvious is this, as
                      understood by Regis Blachere (2) The Romans have overcome (3) In the nearest Land
                      , but they, after their victory will be defeated (4) in a few years
                      .... Then the believers will rejoice the victory of Allah .

                      This is clearly to raise the morale of the Arab troops after the defeat facing the
                      Byzantines in Mu'ta in 629, while the ummah was so close to access the Holy Land

                      Judeonazarenes were not the only Jews to carried this messianic project, as has been seen previously by detailing some Jewish insurgencies and reconstruction projects of the Temple with a Messianist vision
                      When writing with consonants, the verb "overcome" (g-l-b) is identical in its conjugations in active and passive, in the present (glb -> ulibat / "have been overcome" instead of glb -> alibat / "have overcome&quot and the future (yagliboun / "will overcome" instead of yuglaboun / "will be overcome&quot. Only vowels, not written in the originals and in the proto-Korans, can differentiate these two forms. This manipulation was probably to hide the traces of Muhammads passage in Judea and Palestine (what would he have supposed to be doing there?) and thus to avoid evoking a defeat connected to him.

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                        runninglikezebras
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                        The complicated Koran starts clearing up. Understanding the text manipulation mechanisms by Muslim discourse actually helps decipher the convoluted meaning that tradition tries to give it. Its "judeonazarene" reading is significantly simpler and thus sees a different story emerging the indoctrination of Arabs by judeonazarenes, the explanation of the judeonazarene religion to Arab neophytes, regimentation in the messianic project, exhortations for the conquest of Jerusalem, the hazards of battle, the taking things in hand again in times of discouragement ... For those who can read the Koran, it still reflects, in part, the true story of its origins. The great secret of Islam is encapsulated in the Koran.

                        We should however put into perspective the scope of reach of the Koran in Islam while it is said to represent the backbone of the Muslim faith, its revelation (revelation that is actually divided between Quran and the person of Muhammad, by the example of his conduct reported by the hadiths and Sira), it should be understood that it is merely a contributory element of this faith Muslims do not read it but through the canvas of traditions (hadiths, Sira and allowed comments). Most of Muslims in history have even never read it, being only more or less educated about the general discourse. Moreover, the first "Islamic" conquerors did not know it. Recall that the Moors who landed in Spain in the 8th century seemed to ignore the Koran (see note 8. Mass diffusion of the Koran is a very recent phenomenon.

                        But even today, as technology and literacy have helped to make it accessible to all, very many Muslims do not really know the Koran and do not even dare to read it as they are afraid of the sacred halo. In fact, Islam is primarily a discourse. The Qur'an, like other sources of Muslim faith, as the Hadith, the Sira, Muslim history and even the person of the Prophet Muhammad only serve to justify something much larger than themselves. It bases this awareness that Muslims have been chosen by God to establish his law on the world. According to this messianic belief, the future of the world will be Islamic, Islam would be its salvation, this salvation before they will settle forever with the return of "Messiah Jesus" at the end of time (and the Mahdi that will unify the umma). So God would give the world freed from evil to his chosen to live in eternal bliss.


                        Such is the conclusion of history envisioned by Muslim commentators, beyond the impressive diversity of their respective scenarios. After these pages, however, we can offer a much different conclusion

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                          runninglikezebras
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                          CONCLUSION

                          The pieces of the historical puzzle fit together. The meticulous process of Edouard-Marie Gallez, spanning his work as a historian of ideas and religions, sheds light on the "great secret of Islam" update to the judeonazarene project, the political-religious context of its emergence, its deployment in history and its transmission to the Arabs, the (re) discovery of archaeological evidence and contemporary texts of early Islam hidden for so long, scientific analysis of the Muslim sources, especially the Koranic text itself, understanding of the intrinsic forces driving the Muslim messianic project, analysis of the history of rewriting mechanisms ... The emergence of Islam as it is today finally says so quite consistently, which exposes the nature of this religion in all its truth.

                          Certainly some pieces to the puzzle are still missing. The researchers complete more and more of it since the publication of the works of Edouard-Marie Gallez . Lets confide in them they will continue to pursue for instance archaeological investigations on places of judeonazarene origins, they specify the exact part being manipulated by which Caliph in which time, they will understand more what surrounded the site of Mecca, they will realize a full exegetical reading of the Koran and hadith (a very large working area) and they will inform us on many other subjects. Yet even without this, the body of evidence and clues is quite dense and converge to shed light with sufficient certainty on the great secret of Islam, on its historical deception and the truth about its actual origins the Koranic text and the Islamic biography of Muhammad are progressive fabrications during centuries following the first conquests of the Arabs of Syria; the first 50 years of the reign of Omar played a key role in the first and the first 50 years after Abd al-Malik in the latter. There has never been a divine revelation given to Muhammad Islam is the fruit of a very long and complex process of rewriting of history, rooted in a Judaeo-Christian deviant faith, maddened by the expectations of Messianists.

                          This gradual process gave birth to a new religion that has always pursued the goals of its judeonazarene Messianist founders. It imposed on civil society a political system of domination exploiting the religious to install a totalitarian authority. In fact, Islam is transmitted and continues to be transmitted through the iron fist of the rulers and Muslim regimes, by fear of the sacred, fear of hell and the social body of control by the group on the individual. It demanded and still demands the renunciation of any questioning and criticism. Submission is at this point the condition of its perpetuation which it even deploys as a standard. But this total submission, crushing men, nations and cultures, was never fully accomplished under penalty of absolutely destroying civil society upon which Islam itself depends for its perpetuation. The true Islam remains and will always remain to be established tomorrow. The chronic inability of Islam to honor its Messianist promises does not prevent its expansion the dream of "tomorrows" has always appealed. Billions of people believed stronlgy in the dogmas of class struggle and proletarian dictatorship (one third of the world population was in the "communist camp" in the early 1980s), despite the so heavy tribute they paid for it themselves .

                          The promises that are advanced in todays market society, its technical progress, and its triumphant reasoning and its command to enjoy are of exactly the same order. These ideologies and their logics of surreality continue to torment humanity since it started to believe in the possibility of its salvation. The project to make the world conform to a supposed divine plan, the idea of a draft of an "Ideal society" and especially the dream of an Islamisation of the world are the root of the most absolute intolerance, which can not accept the other as such, that is to say mutually respect. The other is then always at fault, the other is a bad believer or an external enemy. The other is the evil at best, the other is "tolerated", waiting to get rid of later. Some have seen so much folly of wanting to eradicate the evil from the earth. As Solzhenitsyn noted, "the dividing line between good and evil or between states or classes or parties, is but through the heart of every person and of all humanity" . Who could tear out some part of his own heart? Any attempt to eradicate evil, the advent of a new man and a perfect society is inherently doomed to failure in reeducation camps, if not in extermination camps. The world does not separate between clean and unclean, and between enlightened elected to guide obscurantist masses. This truth was laid out long before Solzhenitsyn, for Jesus himself propagated this new idea of salvation. A salvation to look elsewhere and otherwise, "seek and you shall find" .

                          Of course, many Muslims dream of an ideal Islam, an Islam of peace and harmony among all people, all cultures, all religions - and many non-Muslims dream of it as well! For the great majority of Muslims consists of honest people who do not apply to the letter the commands of Islamic violence and political domination, who do not share the vision of an Islamic terrible and warlike God (s61,4 "God loves those who are killed on his path" ). Many do not even know, and this is also for the better.

                          Everyday Muslims find in Islam a hope, transcendence and traditional values of common sense respect for the family, individual morality, rules of conduct in society ... They also pride in belonging to "the best of peoples, evolved for mankind" (s3,110) , practicing the best of religions and the unwavering hope that God will eventually make them prevail. This doubled messianic hope of submissive behavior to the divine will is the cause of a certain fatalism ("mektoub!&quot, to consent to the political domination observed throughout Muslim history, which might suggest this possibility of an Islam of peace and concord. And if the mystics even manage to isolate from their practice of Islam some wisdom, we must also see it as a result of simple human experience and the influence of non-muslim values (including Christian). In any case, it does not befall to the daily Muslim nor to the mystics to define what Islam is. Islam exists as such by its doctrine and its messianic discourse, by its trace in history and especially its founding texts. The full implementation of Islam which those who practice "moderation" dont dare to apply, allows no ambiguity about it, as shown by the outbreaks of violence that regularly electrify the Muslim world precisely because of that full implementation. Only the questioning of the messianic project of Islam, what constitutes its fundamental identity by Muslims themselves (and therefore the questioning of discourse and the Koranic text) can make Islam compatible with civil society. Without this, it can only be in perpetual war against it, that is to say perpetually at war with humanity.

                          Furthermore, let us realize that literacy and increasingly easy access to Islamic texts allowed for about a century an increasing and unprecedented spread in the history of the fundamentals of Islam at the heart of the Muslim peoples. They didnt know much more about it but the discourses and oral traditions before. And at the same time disappeared with the Ottoman Caliphate this fist that had disciplined the umma, or, which at leas allowed the possibility of a balance between religious and political - a balance trying (or having tried) to maintain the different natures of rather
                          authoritarian regimes as it was observed in Muslim countries over the past century.

                          Western modernity at the origin of these phenomena, and the Muslim reaction against it, thus have as an indirect effect some kind of overactivation of the internal mechanism of Islam (see diagram on page 57). We observe therefore the appearance and development of new trends Muslim Brotherhood, Salafism, Takfirism, attempts to restore the Caliphate and other "Islamisms". They all proceed from an uncontrolled re-Islamization because of the will of a full implementation of the religion and a return to its roots. But they also contribute to the rise of skepticism among Muslims facing these inconsistencies, these obscurities and these injunctions of little humanistic nature as we have detailed. Criticism is free on the internet and now available almost everywhere. It is still nearly free in Western countries, struggling to be contained by social pressure, political correctness, accusations of "Islamophobia" and by interdictions by national and international Muslim Authorities (OIC - Organization of Islamic Cooperation - is at the forefront of this front). This is a new phenomenon, in front of which most Muslims grandparents no longer recognize "their Islam" and feel completely overwhelmed. Fracture lines appear in the next generation between absolutists, skeptical and relativistic. And we would like to see Islam engage in a dialectic between liberals and radicals, and proceed to the use of critical thinking, the desecration of its texts, in its internal reform, its aggiornamento. Unfortunately, this is impossible in the context of Islam.

                          That is why the time is up for Islam. Failing to achieve its own critical examination, it lets others do it. Historical research continues. They progress. The Koranic text is about to be reconstituted with its Syro-Aramaic language foundations. The reality of its origins began to be disclosed by more and more work, more and more critical and more lucid. Islam can no longer prevent spreading of light on its origins everywhere, its imposture and what it is in truth. Even though it is very difficult for every conditioned Muslim to us his own reasoning about religion, reality will be increasingly presented in front of their eyes behind the veil of Islamic surreality. It will advance with the full force of non-violence preached by Gandhi. Moreover, we can already predict how it will be received by Muslims by taking one of his famous statements first it will be ignored and it will be mocked, then it will be fought, and finally, it will prevail. The term of non-violence is also a small translation of the original expression of Gandhi (Sanskrit "satyagraha&quot, much better rendered by 'force of truth. " Jesus, the man of salvation, had said "The truth will set you free ". It will overcome all submissions, nreal all the chains and shackles, and thus Islam, which Ernest Renan called the "most heavy chain that humanity has never worn."

                          Remains to be questioned now is the Western society and a world that is becoming more Westernized on what they have to offer to Muslims caught in the wobbling of the Islamic edifice. For most of them (and also for many non-Muslims), their sincere desire for a more just world, respect for a certain common sense and the sense of God can not flourish in a society ruled by money, commodification without limitation, the lack of differentiation and individual desire considered as the only reason of being. All this will add more attractiveness to the Islamic system and its Messianists promises, perceived as the only remedies against this mad West. At the risk of having to confront that the coming collapse of Islam will only make it more violent.

                          We could cite the work of Robert Kerr, Mehdi AZAIEZ, William Dye, Patricia Crone (referenced in annex). Particular attention should be made to the work of Jean-Jacques Walter he defended a thesis on the computerized, systematic study of the Koranic text late 2013 in Toulouse. Published in July 2014 (The Qur'an revealed by coding theory), it is expected to make a big splash. It corroborates the historical research of Edward-Marie Gallez bringing unpublished evidence by its method of computing and mathematical analysis of the Koran, used here for the first time.
                          This is despite the implementation of manipulations of the same type we see in Islam. Let us remember how Stalin retracted Trotsky's role and ideas in order to create an official discourse of the glorious building of the Soviet Union, which goes in the direction of his interests of new tsar. It stemmed from a logic of post hoc rationale very similar to that which led to the caliphs retracting of the judeonazarenes.
                          Taken from The Gulag Archipelago.
                          Matthew 13 24-30.
                          Matthew 7.7
                          Full text of the surah "God loves those who are going to kill for his cuase in ranks, as if they were a solid structure." (Quran 61 4). Translations soften the original meaning of the Arabic word often translated by "fight" while its Arabic conjugation indicates the direction to "fight to the death, to the end".
                          Muslims want to identify the "best community" with the Muslim ummah, far from the original meaning of the word as "Arab-judeonazarene community" which given was given to it by the inspirers of Islam.
                          John 8,32.

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                            runninglikezebras
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #143

                            ANNEXES

                            Some easily accessible references for further study of the origins of Islam

                            Edouard-Marie Gallez, doctor of theology and religious history, original author of the theory of judeonazarenes as the source of Islam and of the overall vision developed in The Great Secret of Islam

                            • His thesis The Messiah and his prophet - 2 volumes - Editions de Paris, 2005-2010

                            • The Site where E-M. Gallez updates his thesis http//www.lemessieetsonprophete.com In particular, the analysis of the root "kfr / kuffar / infidel" in the Koran and the Muslim discourse.

                            Robert M. Kerr - assistant professor at Wilfrid Laurier University (Canada)

                            • "The language of the Koran" how the Koran was written in Syria (English article).

                            Patricia Crone - Professor at the Institute for Advanced Study (Princeton, USA), former lecturer at Oxford and Cambridge (United Kingdom)

                            • Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam - Princeton University Press, 1987.

                            • How did the quranic pagans make a living ?

                            Manfred Kropp - professor at the University of Mainz (Germany)
                            "A philologist reads the Quran," lecture series given at the College of France in October 2005

                            • Pre-Islamic Arabia http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQJY1OdHtJc

                            • The quranic fact http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G1dHK7fbqk

                            • Written and oral tradition http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiKd_IsX0Yw

                            • Koranic studies in the West http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW-o5lW3mjo

                            William Dye - professor at the Free University of Brussels (Belgium) -

                            • Free conversation with William Dye on his research with Abdelwahab Meheb, on his show Cultures of Islam on France Culture (03/14/2014).

                            • Participation in the collective work Judaism among "theology of substitution" and "theology of falsification" proceedings of the conference held at the Institute of Jewish Studies (ULB) 23, 24 and 25 September 2008.

                            Tom Holland - historian and English writer - Documentary "Islam the untold story" (English), released in August 2012 on the BBC, based in part on the work of Patricia Crone (documentary from which is extracted the photo of the first piece currency to mention Mohammed, shown on page 53).

                            One can also view and download freely from the site http//legrandsecretdelislam.com a synthesis in two parts of the Great Secret of Islam a summary in 8 pages, and a presentation of the main sources and selected bibliography at the basis of the Great Secret of Islam, in 10 pages.

                            http//rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Genealogy-Islam.PNG

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                              runninglikezebras
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #144

                              This completes the translation of the work. It undoubtedly contains still many errors from my parts and I'm sure the eventual pdf translation will be much improved upon. Feel free to debate the issues rising from this translation or post your questions. When the complete pdf version is published online, we will notify in this thread.

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                                Jafar
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #145

                                CONCLUSION
                                Islam is the fruit of a very long and complex process of rewriting of history, rooted in a Judaeo-Christian deviant faith, maddened by the expectations of Messianists.

                                The equation will be
                                Islam = Judaism + Christianism + Arab Paganism + Zoroastrianism + Tengriism

                                The evolution of Islam hasn't stopped, (depending on your perspective) now it has also evolved into
                                Islam = Judaism + Christianism + Arab Paganism + Arab Nationalism + Zoroastrianism + Tengriism

                                This gradual process gave birth to a new religion that has always pursued the goals of its judeonazarene Messianist founders. It imposed on civil society a political system of domination exploiting the religious to install a totalitarian authority.
                                In fact, Islam is transmitted and continues to be transmitted through the iron fist of the rulers and Muslim regimes, by fear of the sacred, fear of hell and the social body of control by the group on the individual. It demanded and still demands the renunciation of any questioning and criticism. Submission is at this point the condition of its perpetuation which it even deploys as a standard. But this total submission, crushing men, nations and cultures, was never fully accomplished under penalty of absolutely destroying civil society upon which Islam itself depends for its perpetuation.

                                That IS the objective of any religion and why a dogma is essential for religion.

                                The true Islam remains and will always remain to be established tomorrow. The chronic inability of Islam to honor its Messianist promises does not prevent its expansion the dream of "tomorrows" has always appealed. Billions of people believed stronlgy in the dogmas of class struggle and proletarian dictatorship (one third of the world population was in the "communist camp" in the early 1980s), despite the so heavy tribute they paid for it themselves .

                                Communism and Atheism IS a religion.

                                Of course, many Muslims dream of an ideal Islam, an Islam of peace and harmony among all people, all cultures, all religions - and many non-Muslims dream of it as well!

                                The Islam of Peace do not exist.
                                As well as Christianity of Peace , Judaism of Peace, Atheism of Peace.

                                For the great majority of Muslims consists of honest people who do not apply to the letter the commands of Islamic violence and political domination, who do not share the vision of an Islamic terrible and warlike God (s61,4 "God loves those who are killed on his path" ). Many do not even know, and this is also for the better.

                                Of course Muslim (as social identity) or any other social identity is a mixture of both good and bad people.

                                And if the mystics even manage to isolate from their practice of Islam some wisdom, we must also see it as a result of simple human experience and the influence of non-muslim values (including Christian).

                                Christian????

                                Without this, it can only be in perpetual war against it, that is to say perpetually at war with humanity.

                                All dogmatic religion is at perpetual war with humanity.. including but not limited to Christianity..

                                Western modernity at the origin of these phenomena, and the Muslim reaction against it, thus have as an indirect effect some kind of overactivation of the internal mechanism of Islam (see diagram on page 57). We observe therefore the appearance and development of new trends Muslim Brotherhood, Salafism, Takfirism, attempts to restore the Caliphate and other "Islamisms". They all proceed from an uncontrolled re-Islamization because of the will of a full implementation of the religion and a return to its roots.

                                "Western modernity" is not the origin of "the phenomena".
                                In any places where "critical thinking" appears, it will always be challenged and disposed by the conservative + traditionalist.

                                We can trace it back to Abbasid Empire (Razi for example), Ancient China, Greece (e.g. Socrates), Ancient Mesopotamia (e.g. Abraham). And the conflict is still going on until today around the globe.

                                That is why the time is up for Islam. Failing to achieve its own critical examination, it lets others do it.

                                Time is up for ALL religion.
                                Islam is on it's downward trend towards extinction and so does Christianity, Judaism, Atheism, Communism and other dogmatic religion.

                                "If there is any religion that could correspond to the needs of modern science, it would be Buddhism"
                                -- A. Einstein

                                And here's why

                                "Don't blindly believe what I say. Don't believe me because others convince you of my words.
                                Don't believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or scriptures.
                                Don't rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don't infer or be deceived by appearances.
                                Do not give up your authority and follow blindly the will of others.
                                This way will lead to only delusion.
                                Find out for yourself what is truth, what is real.
                                Discover that there are virtuous things and there are non-virtuous things.
                                Once you have discovered for yourself give up the bad and embrace the good."
                                -- S. Gauthama

                                Yet once somebody created a religion named "Buddhism" and instill a dogmatic idea to be enforced upon it's people, then the religion named "Buddhism" will also follow the same path as any other religion.

                                You can replace the word "Buddhism" above with any other names (Quranist, True Islam, Reform Judaism, Reformist, Reform Christian whatever..)

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                                  Fusion
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #146

                                  Quite interesting comments from both of you.
                                  The more I resort to my own thinking (logical/critical) of the religion, the more distrust is developed , but this is because my thinking of the religion is over shadowed by its practical implementation (people, wars, conquest, dictatorship, kings, making use of religious tactics etc etc).

                                  It is very difficult to separate the conventional religion from the message, because the society you live , is embedded with it. Unless you escape from the traditional religious society and live a life of your own rules....not easy when you are married and kids and relations around you and the funny part is you see your children being brain washed by same rituals and yet you cant do much about it.

                                  Couple of days ago I read news about tempering with the DNA(designer babies) to change characteristics of a person (appearance) etc.
                                  http//www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=52172#.VhkM1PlViko

                                  I think few centuries from now, people will be living with such flood of information that like what folks discuss here being quranists and all that where freedom is there to talk about different meanings of angels, messengers books.... will reach to commoners and there might be different definitions of these verses/objects just so to accommodate or adapt the religion into the new discoveries to make them appear compatible.

                                  Today while making tea I accidently burned by hand and it hurt so much at that time that I realize or remember the verses of Quran for punishment of change of skin. Whether that is again a metaphor or not is another discussion. The point is that despite all of the new concepts and stuff, we are still slaves of the mortal nature of our bodies. The death is the real truth and as long as these things are there, people will continue to fall for or believe in traditional interpretations of the religion.

                                  One of the colleague was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer (18 months ago) was a modern free thought person. he died within a year but he resorted to being very religious and all that towards the end. What does it mean that we humans when confronted with terminal illness will become closer to God and will perhaps adopt traditional practices of the religion thinking to be saved in the next life.

                                  Having said all above, I am further lost and confused and not sure what is the truth or lies...
                                  My question is what is the definition of Faith in actual sense?

                                  Cheers

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                                    Osman
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #147

                                    The equation will be
                                    Islam = Judaism + Christianism + Arab Paganism + Zoroastrianism + Tengriism

                                    A lot of this is hardly groundbreaking and original research though now is it? I'm not disputing you, I just want everyone here to know that this is basically putting forward the already established idea that all religions are syncretic by nature.

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                                      Jafar
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #148

                                      A lot of this is hardly groundbreaking and original research though now is it? I'm not disputing you, I just want everyone here to know that this is basically putting forward the already established idea that all religions are syncretic by nature.

                                      Of course it is..

                                      However MOST people still think that their RELIGION IS COMING STRAIGHT FROM GOD.
                                      And their religion is THE ONLY religion that is COMING STRAIGHT FROM GOD.

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                                        Neptin
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #149

                                        This is a great read but lenghty. It ought to be an e-book. @runninglikezebras, wouldn't it be great if you can gather an e-book on your findings which you may publish on e-book stores like Amazon Kindle? You can share this with more Muslims that way.

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                                          runninglikezebras
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #150

                                          It will be available as an e-book on Olaf's website and on amazon I assume. The english version is currently being worked on. A french version is already available and has drawn a massive amount of attention.

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