FIVE DAILY SALAWAT IN ISLAM AND ZOROASTRIANISM

Wakas

peace all,

Since the Quran is complete and detailed, I think that it would be prudent/sensible to only perform Salat 2 times a day.

Not that simple ,is it? You have to be certain ,you see?

My view is simple and encompasses other understandings also (e.g. 2, 3, 5 etc), and that is Quran states a minimum of two daily salat for the mumineen. ;D

If readers are researching however, this article is one of the best deconstructions with regard to timings.

Man_of_Faith

(selawat) is a word simply marking plural object and does not specify how many. (selawateh) is singular object alternatively uncountable.

Be safe
Amenuel

Kikotsu

Salam everyone

If you can even translate "wusta" as middle... that is not very likely

Incorrect. See point 11 here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

if you mean that Al-Salat Al-Wusta means the Perfect Salat (God tells us to perform a perfect Salat) so

I need to remind you of Al-Masjid Al-Haram .. the word (Al-Haram) is not an adjecive but also forms with

word (Al-Masjid) a name this is also the case of Al-Bayt Al-Ateeq .. the word (Al-Ateeq) doesn't only

mean (the ancient) but it also form a name after adding it to word (Al-Bayt)

So .. Al-Salat Al-Wusta is a name not a description of a Perfect Salat

Also Remeber ! every Salat must be perfect !

Please read the verse carefully

You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer,

and devote yourselves totally to GOD

GOD doesn't command us to observe a (non perfect Salat "You shall consistently observe the Contact

Prayers&quot then he remind us (in the same verse) to observe a perfect one (especially Al-Salat Al-Wusta)

!

SO if Al-Salat Al-Wusta means (the Perfect/best/etc... Salat) then , does GOD command us to observe

two kinds of Salat a non perfect one , and a perfect one ?

Quran mentions 2 daily salat

Salat Al Fajr (morning).
Salat Al Isha (Night).

incorrect !
Quran mentions 3 Daily Salat

What do you make of these verses?
1778

this verse talks about 3 Salat

translation

You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its

highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran

at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.

1- Duluk Al-Shams (when the sun declines from its highest point at noon) this is the

Middle Prayer , it's timing is from the noon to the sunset (you can perform it during this time)

2- Ela Ghasak Al-Layl (as it moves towards sunset) this is the ending of Middle Prayer and the start

of Isha/Night Prayer

3- Wa Quran Al-Fajr (You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn) this is Fajr/Dawn

Prayer

Then
11114

Translation

You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at both ends of the day, and during

the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take

heed.

this verse talks about two ritual prayers (Salat) and they are the Dawn Prayer and the Night Prayer

lets examine

ends of the day are sunrise and sunset but GOD also says (and during the night)! so is this another

Salat ?

NO ! , first we must know that GOD said in

Once you complete your Contact Prayer (Salat), you shall remember GOD while standing, sitting, or lying

down. Once the war is over, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat); the Contact Prayers (Salat)

are decreed for the believers at specific times.

and because the Quran is FULLY DETAILED , there must be a detailed mention of

the prayers times

sunrise and sunset are two actions that takes about 2 minutes , and GOD know that we can't observe the

Salat in 2 minutes ! so he gave us a time range to observe those 2 prayers , and that is (and during the

night) , so now we can understand the verse clearer

Night Prayer (range of time) (sunset) and (immediately after sunset)

Dawn Prayer (range of time) (just before sunrise) and (sunrise)

Now for the Middle Prayer this Prayer starts when the sun declines from it's highest point (noon) and

ends at sunset (the time when Night Prayer begins)

this verse makes the point clear

You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer,

and devote yourselves totally to GOD.

GOD tells people to consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer ! why

especially the middle prayer ?

because most people are in their homes at the time of Night Prayer and Dawn Prayer but they are at work

during the Middle Prayer

imagine this situation a mother tells her son eat your dinner and vegetables ... now , vegetables

are part of the dinner but the mother mentioned it not because it's separate of the dinner but to remind

her son of the importance of vegetables

so , because most people cannot observe the Middle Prayer at noon , he gave us a range of time to

observe it , and that is when the sun starts to decline from it's highest point at noon , to sunset when

Night Prayer begins

the story of prophet Solomon confirms this

One day he became preoccupied with beautiful horses, until the night fell.

He then said, "I enjoyed the material things more than I enjoyed worshipping my Lord, until the

sun was gone.

according to these verses , Prophet Solomon was distracted by beautiful horses so he forgot to observe

the Middle Prayer until he realized that the sun had already vanished behind the line of the horizon

this story is a proof that the Middle Prayer can be observed from noon until right before sunset at the

latest and it also shows that a riutal prayer cannot be observed once missed

How many salat here? some say 2.some say 3? Look at the threads ,no agreement.

because many don't try to understand the Quran according to the Quranic way (simple words and clear

message)

let's use simple words to understand the verse

You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its

highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran

at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.

if some people don't trust in translations , I'll use the Arabic text

1778

the three words are

1- ( &#1587 Duluk Al-Shams

http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%AF%D9%84%D9%88%D9%83/

use any Good English-Arabic translator (not Google -_-) and it will give you something like (when it (I

mean the sun) starts to decline from noon to sunset)

2- ( &#1604 Ghasak Al-Layl

http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%BA%D8%B3%D9%82-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84/

the translation is (Darkness of the Night)

3- ( &#1585 Quran Al-Fajr

http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D8%AC%D8%B1/

Al-Fajr means Dawn and you can use any translator (even Google) to be sure

so the Command is to observe only 3 ritual prayers and they are the Middle Prayer , Night Prayer and

Dawn Prayer

peace for everyone

good_logic

Peace Kikotsu.

Let us pick one verse at a time

The middle prayer according to you is the only prayer during the day time?

You say

his verse makes the point clear

You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer,

and devote yourselves totally to GOD.

Why does the verse not mean

"You shall consistently observe the salawat and the middle prayer"?

Your example of the mother does not make it any clearer,as the mother could say "eat your meal and your cake"? They are both food !

Also Solomon could have forgotten the "afternoon prayer" why not?That one is more likely to be missed in most hot countries when they work. ,because they are free in the middle of the day .They do the "siesta" .

All you have done is given your understanding.

I disagree with you about your explanations.
For me 1778 is talking about one prayer only. And 11114 is talking about three prayers,which leaves the middle prayer and these make 5 prayers.

As for naming the salat, GOD has given specific timings and has not set to name the salawat in Qoran..
The verse that names the two salats is talking about a different subject that happens during these salats. .
If GOD intended to name the salawat ,the subject would have been clearly and specifically to name all the salawat.

Of course this is my understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Taro_Hiroshi

Peace Wakas, everyone,

My view is simple and encompasses other understandings also (e.g. 2, 3, 5 etc), and that is Quran states a minimum of two daily salat for the mumineen. ;D

I think that you are correct. I agree with the notion that there is a minimum of 2 daily Salat for the mumins (believers), not for the muslims (submitters).

In verse 44103, the Quran seems to suggest that Salat is for the mumins (believers).

Quran 44103 Then, if you have completed the contact prayer, remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. Then, if you are secure, hold the contact prayer. Indeed, the contact prayer for the believers is a Book that is scheduled.

In verse 2458, the quran only mentions the word Salat (contact prayer) two times and seems to suggest that there is a minimum of 2 daily Salat.

Quran 2458 O you who believe, let those among you who are maintained by your oaths, and those who have not attained puberty, request your permission regarding three times before the dawn contact prayer, and when you put off your garments from the noon time, and after the evening contact prayer. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

In verse 1778, the Quran seems to suggest that one can perform more than 2 daily Salat.

Quran 1778 Hold the contact prayer at the rubbing of the sun, until the darkening of the night; and the Qur'an at dawn-the Qur'an at dawn is witnessed.

Kikotsu

Peace Kikotsu.

Peace brother

I'm so sad that you even didn't read all my explanation carefully and you didn't even reply for the last part

and because the example of the mother and his child and the story of prophet Solomon weren't satisfy for you I'll reply your claims , may Allah guide us to the truth , and if I were wrong , may Allah guide me

The middle prayer according to you is the only prayer during the day time?

there is a prayer at Dawn

You say

his verse makes the point clear

You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer,

and devote yourselves totally to GOD.

It does

Why does the verse not mean

"You shall consistently observe the salawat and the middle prayer"?

so the problem her is the letter (wa) in Arabic which means (and) in English

this translation rises many problems

1- Why did God separate the Middle Prayer from the others ? why didn't he say "You shall consistently observe the salawat" ?

2- Which one of the claimed five ritual prayers is the Middle Prayer ?

Fajr - Zhohr - Asr - Maghrib - Isha , according to the dictionaries the Words Wusta means (that which is between to things/ends and is a part of them) , according to this definition the Middle Prayer must be the Asr Prayer , However , this can't be true when we come to the timing of Asr Prayer ! because it's is not in the middle between Fajr (Dawn) and Isha (Night) (please note that Asr is the Afternoon)

3- I repeat , Al-Salat Al-WustA is a NAME , and this name was mentioned in the Quran , so why didn't GOD say "You shall consistently observe the salawat and the ASR prayer" according to your translation ?

All you have done is given your understanding.

I disagree with you about your explanations.
For me 1778 is talking about one prayer only. And 11114 is talking about three prayers,which leaves the middle prayer and these make 5 prayers.

Actually it's you who is giving his understanding )

I'll quote from my previous reply and please read carefully

1778

the three words are

1- ( &#1587 Duluk Al-Shams

http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%AF%D9%84%D9%88%D9%83/

use any Good English-Arabic translator (not Google -_-) and it will give you something like (when it (I

mean the sun) starts to decline from noon to sunset)

2- ( &#1604 Ghasak Al-Layl

http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%BA%D8%B3%D9%82-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84/

the translation is (Darkness of the Night)

3- ( &#1585 Quran Al-Fajr

http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D8%AC%D8%B1/

Al-Fajr means Dawn and you can use any translator (even Google) to be sure

so the Command is to observe only 3 ritual prayers and they are the Middle Prayer , Night Prayer and

Dawn Prayer

Now , your claim that this verse talks about one prayer is NOT TRUE

First let's understand this verse

You shall observe the Salat at the two ends of the day; and during the near parts of the night

What are the two ends of the day ? let's make dictionaries answer

the Two ends of the day are it's beginning and it's ending

(please note that in the Arabic text the words were which means the two ends of the day)

http//www.almaany.com/answers/184162/%D9%85%D8%A7-%D9%85%D8%B9%D9%86%D9%89-%D8%AC%D9%85%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%B7%D8%B1%D9%81%D8%A7-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%86%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%B1

see also http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%B7%D8%B1%D9%81/

RESULT the two ends of the day are Dawn (sunrise) and Night (sunset)

Please check this link for more information

http//www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/night_start_%28P1369%29.html

Now let's read this verse

You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its

highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran

at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.

Please Note (as it moves towards sunset) this is the Isha/Night Prayer , also (You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran

at dawn) this is the Fajr/Dawn Prayer

And (You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its

highest point at noon) this is the Middle Prayer , the words cannot be clearer !

You see ! Noon is in the middle between sunrise and sunset , unlike afternoon which is closer to sunset

so talks about 2 ritual prayer (Dawn and Night) , talks about 3 ritual prayers (Dawn , Night and Middle) the sum of the ritual prayers are 3 Dawn , Middle and Night

is the main verse which talk about 3 Ritaul Prayers while explains the range of time for Dawn and Night ritual prayers , and gives us the specific time for the Middle Prayer (1778 also give us the range of time for the Middle Prayer)

As for naming the salat, GOD has given specific timings and has not set to name the salawat in Qoran..
The verse that names the two salats is talking about a different subject that happens during these salats. .
If GOD intended to name the salawat ,the subject would have been clearly and specifically to name all the salawat.

So why did he mentioned only 3 Salat's names ? why didn't he mention the other 2 ? why in the whole Quran the is not mention for Asr Prayer and Maghrib Prayer ?

Did he forget ? Did he want us to have some puzzles ?

of course NO ! it's is humans who are not understanding

Of course this is my understanding.

please note that I gave you the full explanation and used Arabic dictionaries to give you the clearest meaning

so , I have a question for you

GOD said

Once you complete your Contact Prayer (Salat), you shall remember GOD while standing, sitting, or lying down. Once the war is over, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat); the Contact Prayers (Salat) are decreed for the believers at specific times.

the Ritual prayers are decreed for the believers at specific times

Please give me the specific times for the 5 daily ritual prayers in the Quran according to your belief and PLEASE NOTE THAT GLORIFYING GOD IS NOT NECESSARY A RITUAL PRAYER BECAUSE YOU CAN GLORIFY GOD AT ANY TIME

good_logic

Peace Kokitsu.

I have read your posts.

You have requested my understanding of the specific times from Qoran,here they are

The Dawn Prayer given in 11114 and mentioned in2458

The Midday Prayer given in 1778 . Yes I believe this is a specific middle of the day prayer ( Not middle prayer!)

The Afternoon Prayer ( This is the middle prayer) given in 2238 , ( It does not matter whether you say "Especially the middle prayer or "And the middle prayer" in translating the verse. Since there are 4 other prayers the middle one is the one between them)

The sunset Prayer , given in 11114 ( Yes I understand Tarafain to mean both ends ,Dawn and dusk-Sunset-)

The Night Prayer , given in 11114 ( The night prayer) and mentioned in 2458 .

Where I differ with you brother is 11114,my understanding is 3 prayers altogether.

GOD gave specific times as windows during the different parts of the full day/night.

Of course you are entitled to your understanding.

My main point of replying in this thread is to make you aware of other views and possible interpretations.
Thank you . I appreciate your effort .
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Kikotsu

Peace Kokitsu.

Peace Brother

The Dawn Prayer given in 11114 and mentioned in2458

Correct

The Midday Prayer given in 1778

this is true but

Yes I believe this is a specific middle of the day prayer ( Not middle prayer!)

this is not true , I've clarified this point previously

The Afternoon Prayer ( This is the middle prayer) given in 2238

this is also not true and I've shown you why this is not true

( It does not matter whether you say "Especially the middle prayer or "And the middle prayer" in translating the verse. Since there are 4 other prayers the middle one is the one between them)

I'll repeat the questions and PLEASE ANSWER THEM

1- Why did God separate the Middle Prayer from the others ? why didn't he say "You shall consistently observe the salawat" ?

2- Which one of the claimed five ritual prayers is the Middle Prayer ?

Fajr - Zhohr - Asr - Maghrib - Isha , according to the dictionaries the Words Wusta means (that which is between to things/ends and is a part of them) , according to this definition the Middle Prayer must be the Asr Prayer , However , this can't be true when we come to the timing of Asr Prayer ! because it's is not in the middle between Fajr (Dawn) and Isha (Night) (please note that Asr is the Afternoon)

3- I repeat , Al-Salat Al-WustA is a NAME , and this name was mentioned in the Quran , so why didn't GOD say "You shall consistently observe the salawat and the ASR prayer" according to your translation ?

The sunset Prayer , given in 11114 ( Yes I understand Tarafain to mean both ends ,Dawn and dusk-Sunset-)

The Night Prayer , given in 11114 ( The night prayer) and mentioned in 2458 .

this is a complete misunderstanding for the word Layl in Arabic which means Night .. check the link that I gave you
http//www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/night_start_%28P1369%29.html

Where I differ with you brother is 11114,my understanding is 3 prayers altogether.

it's your understanding , but I gave you many proofs that it is only 2 ritual prayers not 3

Please check this link http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/number_of_salat_(P1200).html

Of course you are entitled to your understanding.

so your are saying all my work to give you the correct meaning of the words in Arabic and all the explanations and logical questions that I asked you which you didn't even answer , are not proofs ? please read my posts and read yours .. who gave the detailed proofs ?

My main point of replying in this thread is to make you aware of other views and possible interpretations.
Thank you . I appreciate your effort .

Actually , I used to believe in 5 ritual prayers but when I saw the truth I accepted it , I also thank you for your work

HOWEVER , you didn't answer these questions

1- Why did GOD only mention 3 Ritual Prayers's names ?

2- Why there is no mention for Maghrib prayer and Asr prayer ?

3- Why there is no mention for the specific times of Maghrib and Asr prayers ?

Always remember

Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

Now , to reach our aim which is knowing the number of daily ritual prayers , can you please clarify your understanding in points (1,2,3..) with full explanation for each Salat (timing , range of time , mention)

but before , can you please answer the above questions ?

may GOD bless us all

Wakas

peace kikotsu,

There are a number of issues with your view.

I did not state "wusta" means "perfect" and in the article I linked to I link to a post which explains WHY "wusta" was likely used.
You said, quote "So .. Al-Salat Al-Wusta is a name not a description"
This suggests you are not knowledgeable of Arabic. That is ok, neither am I, but I do know that I have discussed this issue many times with those knowledgeable of Arabic and not one has ever claimed it is a name, and every Arabic grammar book I have read also shows that this construction is a description, not a naming. If you disagree, please provide your evidence from an Arabic grammar book.
The Quranic evidence you provide does not prove anything as a name in Arabic is determined by context, and the examples you gave can also be taken as common nouns. In fact, even some traditionalists take them as such.
You conveniently ignored all the other points made in point 11.
Your insertion of "isha" into 1778 is an obvious forced insertion (because you know the timings are a problem for your 3-salat view).
Your translation of "duluk" as noon, whilst theoretically possible, it is not the primary meaning. It also suffers from other issues, also mentioned in the article I linked to, e.g. "salat" is singular.
You claim one can do salat within the timing mentioned in 1778, despite Quran saying uphold salat A to B. Do you do this anywhere else in Quran? If so please state where.
Your translation of 3832 is blatantly wrong, "sun" is not even mentioned.

There may have been other errors but the above will suffice for now.

I strongly recommend re-reading the article I linked to.

good_logic

Peace Kikotsu.

You have not proved anything. You simply gave your understanding of the verses.

1- Why did GOD only mention 3 Ritual Prayers's names ?

GOD has not set to name salats. God gave specific times for the salats.

2- Why there is no mention for Maghrib prayer and Asr prayer ?

Again specific times for these have been given in 11114 and 2228. According to my understanding.

3- Why there is no mention for the specific times of Maghrib and Asr prayers ?

Same answer as 2.

It seems our understanding of 11114 differ.
By the way a "middle "prayer can be between 2 or 4 or 6 or....any even number of prayers.If it is in the middle,it will be the middle prayer.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Kikotsu

peace kikotsu,

There are a number of issues with your view.

I did not state "wusta" means "perfect" and in the article I linked to I link to a post which explains WHY "wusta" was likely used.
You said, quote "So .. Al-Salat Al-Wusta is a name not a description"
This suggests you are not knowledgeable of Arabic. That is ok, neither am I, but I do know that I have discussed this issue many times with those knowledgeable of Arabic and not one has ever claimed it is a name, and every Arabic grammar book I have read also shows that this construction is a description, not a naming. If you disagree, please provide your evidence from an Arabic grammar book.
The Quranic evidence you provide does not prove anything as a name in Arabic is determined by context, and the examples you gave can also be taken as common nouns. In fact, even some traditionalists take them as such.
You conveniently ignored all the other points made in point 11.
Your insertion of "isha" into 1778 is an obvious forced insertion (because you know the timings are a problem for your 3-salat view).
Your translation of "duluk" as noon, whilst theoretically possible, it is not the primary meaning. It also suffers from other issues, also mentioned in the article I linked to, e.g. "salat" is singular.
You claim one can do salat within the timing mentioned in 1778, despite Quran saying uphold salat A to B. Do you do this anywhere else in Quran? If so please state where.
Your translation of 3832 is blatantly wrong, "sun" is not even mentioned.

There may have been other errors but the above will suffice for now.

I strongly recommend re-reading the article I linked to.

Hello Brother

First let me say that I'm from Syria , a country where people speaks Arabic

Second we are running in a circle where we pass the same points again but with no answers ! yet again I invite everyone to answer the Questions which I have posted many times but still ... no answer !

let me reply to all your point

You said, quote "So .. Al-Salat Al-Wusta is a name not a description"
This suggests you are not knowledgeable of Arabic. That is ok, neither am I, but I do know that I have discussed this issue many times with those knowledgeable of Arabic and not one has ever claimed it is a name, and every Arabic grammar book I have read also shows that this construction is a description, not a naming. If you disagree, please provide your evidence from an Arabic grammar book.
The Quranic evidence you provide does not prove anything as a name in Arabic is determined by context, and the examples you gave can also be taken as common nouns. In fact, even some traditionalists take them as such.

YES I'm knowledgeable of Arabic because I speak Arabic since I was a child , to prove that Al-Salat Al-Wusta is a name I'll use the Arabic

when we have two words , one of them is an adjective to the other , so the two words form a name (a described name)

I'll quote from the website so you can translate it and I'll give you the link

.

link http//www.al-eman.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%A8%20**/%20%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%A8%20%D8%AC%D9%85%D8%B9%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%A1%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B6%D8%A7%D9%81%D8%A9%20/i68&d60497&c&p1

examples Al-Bayt Al-Atiq is Kabaa in Mecca , Al-Masjid Al-Haram is the sacred mosque in Mecca , Al-Yaom Al-Akhir is the Last Day , Malik Al-Molk is a name for our Lord , As.hab Al-feel are the army of the elephant , even in culture , Zombies are Al-Ahya' Al-Maytoon etc...

Your insertion of "isha" into 1778 is an obvious forced insertion (because you know the timings are a problem for your 3-salat view).

"as it moves towards sunset" this is Isha

Isha is the first darkness of the night

http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B9%D8%B4%D8%A7%D8%A1/

so the verse is talking about a command to observe the Middle Prayer at noon (to) sunset , when it finishes ... this is Isha

Your translation of "duluk" as noon, whilst theoretically possible, it is not the primary meaning. It also suffers from other issues, also mentioned in the article I linked to, e.g. "salat" is singular.

without reading your article .. there is a logical question Arabic dictionaries define Duluk as

this is from noon to sunset

Also

Dalakat (verb form of Duluk) Al-Shams moved (inclined) from the highest point of Sky half of the Day (noon) , inclined towards sunset

this is Al-Ra'd dictionary

you can also check other dictionaries like Lesan Al-Arab

you can also check Lesan Al-Arab dictionary

THIS IS ARABIC , why should I believe that Duluk means something else ?

You claim one can do salat within the timing mentioned in 1778, despite Quran saying uphold salat A to B. Do you do this anywhere else in Quran? If so please state where.

Do you mean that we must pray from noon to sunset ? No , the Arabic text doesn't say uphold Salat (Mn= from) noon to sunset

it says uphold Salat (le=to) (the time) when sun declines from it's highest point (at noon) to sunset , so the meaning is (up hold Middle Prayer at the time between noon and sunset) and this is any time between noon and sunset .. there is no mention to uphold Salat A to B

Your translation of 3832 is blatantly wrong, "sun" is not even mentioned

it is not a translation , it's to show the story , the sun is not mentioned literally but the story is talking about prophet Solomon when he forgot to observe Middle Prayer until he realized that (it) had already vanished behind the line of the horizon

so (it) must be the sun , any other suggestions ?

Now , for the point 11 from your article

After a questionable translation of "wa" in 2238 as "especially", the author states, quote (bold and underline emphasis mine)
"The prayers are referred to as ?salawaat? which is plural (singular salat). Therefore by simple deduction there has to be clearly more than 1 prayer in the day if this is a reference to the daily prayers."

Actually there must be more than 2 ritual prayers in the day according to that verse

In 2238 The Quran makes no reference to the "salawaat" being "in a day", thus the use of "if" above is important to note. In a day is an assumption. Next, it is said, quote
"If the literal meaning of 'wusta' is taken as ?middle? and which seems correct in context..."

if you read the Quran carefully you must notice that when the command is to observe Salat for all of our life , Quran uses the singular form of Salat (this is also the case of Zakat)

"You shall observe the Salat and give the Zakat." 2110

"Say to My servants who believe to observe the Salat and to spend from what We have provided them." 1431

so , GOD tells us (in 223 to consistently observe all Ritual Prayers in the day (one day)

The author provides no reasoning/evidence why it "seems correct in context". The author then references one usage (1005) of the verb "WaSaTa" (same root as the adjective/noun "WuSTa" in 223 to show that it can mean a literal "middle". However, what the author fails to mention is that every other occurrence of this root in The Quran shows it means "middle" in the figurative sense, i.e. balanced, conforming/equitable/just/excellent, average/moderate, most remote from the extremes. See its other adjective/noun usage below

And as such, We have made you a WaSaTan nation...

God will not hold you for your unintentional oaths, but He will hold you for what oaths you have made binding; its cancellation shall be the feeding of ten poor from the aWSaTi of what you feed your family...

The aWSaTu of them said "Did I not say to you why do you not glorify God?"

Therefore, in terms of simple probability, the adjective/noun "wasat" in 2238 more likely refers to the figurative meaning of "middle".

because (Wusta) in 2238 is a name as I proved to you using Arabic dictionaries , and because Middle Prayer starts at noon (which is the middle point between sunrise and sunset)

the misunderstanding that you fell in is the difference between words looks like to be the same in the verses

Middle Prayer is Al-Salat Al(WUsta) while the other words are DIFFERENT

Again .. let's use Arabic dictionaries

WUSTA is NOT WASAT , the plural form of WASAT is AWSAT while the plural form of WUSTA is WUSAT

WUSAT means MIDDLE while WASAT means MODEST etc...

check this link

http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D9%88%D8%B3%D8%B7%D9%89/

Kikotsu

Peace Kikotsu.

You have not proved anything. You simply gave your understanding of the verses.

1- Why did GOD only mention 3 Ritual Prayers's names ?

GOD has not set to name salats. God gave specific times for the salats.

2- Why there is no mention for Maghrib prayer and Asr prayer ?

Again specific times for these have been given in 11114 and 2228. According to my understanding.

3- Why there is no mention for the specific times of Maghrib and Asr prayers ?

Same answer as 2.

It seems our understanding of 11114 differ.
By the way a "middle "prayer can be between 2 or 4 or 6 or....any even number of prayers.If it is in the middle,it will be the middle prayer.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Hello Brother

1- Why did GOD only mention 3 Ritual Prayers's names ?

GOD has not set to name salats. God gave specific times for the salats.

Are you ignoring that Quran is Fully Detailed ? if there is a mention for 3 names of Salat , then the other 2 names must be mentioned , it's weird that GOD didn't mention them , can you tell me why ?

2- Why there is no mention for Maghrib prayer and Asr prayer ?

Again specific times for these have been given in 11114 and 2228. According to my understanding.

this is not a mention , anyway you are wrong (according to every dictionary I know)

You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed.

the two ends of the day are sunrise and sunset , this is Fajr and Isha

check by yourself , write , search and you will find

I think I have posted this link twice but you have never read the article , anyway I guess this is the third time , please read it

http//www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/night_start_%28P1369%29.html

please also read this

http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/number_of_salat_(P1200).html

By the way a "middle "prayer can be between 2 or 4 or 6 or....any even number of prayers.If it is in the middle,it will be the middle prayer.

By the way this is not true at all if we accepted it as Asr Prayer , as I said before

GOD bless you
Salam

good_logic

Peace Kikotsu;

You said
Are you ignoring that Quran is Fully Detailed ? if there is a mention for 3 names of Salat , then the other 2 names must be mentioned , it's weird that GOD didn't mention them , can you tell me why ?

Qoran is fully detailed and your interpretation of it are two different things.

Here ,you say GOD has named three salats, and I say GOD has given 5 specific times.

This is where we differ "Both ends of the day and during the night. I say 1 end + 1 end + during the night = 3.

I have not seen enough evidence in your argument for 2 only.

You seem to accept the "Dawn" end but say there is no "Sunset" end?

If you say there is either day or night,then there must be only 2 salats?

GOD bless you.
Pace.

Kikotsu

Peace Kikotsu;

Peace Brother , there is no 5 specific times for Salats , there are only 3

GOD says that Salat is decreed in specific times , (during the night) is not a specific time , it can be at any time during the night , is GOD giving us puzzles so we must figure out when to pray (during the night)

two ends of the day are sunset (the beginning of Night) this is Isha and sunrise (the beginning of Day = Dawn) this is Fajr

your understanding of Night is wrong , Night DOES NOT begin when the last ray of light disappear from the sky , actually is begins when the sun is setting but there is still light in the sky

may GOD bless us All

Salam

good_logic

Peace Kikotsu.

You say
your understanding of Night is wrong , Night DOES NOT begin when the last ray of light disappear from the sky , actually is begins when the sun is setting but there is still light in the sky

Then by your logic,there is no "fajr" since it is still part of night? 2 separate windows for 2 prayers" Fajr" and "Isha"!

My understanding is as follows
"Fajr,Midday, Middle prayer , Sunset (Dusk) prayer - the other part mentioned with "Jajr", and Isha ( During the night)".These are my 5 specific,parts of the day/night prayers in Qoran.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

Hello Kikotsu,

I'm disappointed by the quality of your reply.

... to prove that Al-Salat Al-Wusta is a name I'll use the Arabic

when we have two words , one of them is an adjective to the other , so the two words form a name (a described name)...

I hope by a "described name" you are not now moving the goal posts (i.e. modifying your original point) and that was "al masjid al haram" is a name, i.e. proper noun like "Abraham" for example. In the examples you gave you used the words actual meaning, i.e. their actual descriptions which is of course not a proper noun. Just because you and some traditionalists use capital letters when discussing these terms in English does not make them proper nouns in Arabic.

Quranic FACT al salat al wusta is NOT in the same form as salat al fajr / salat al 3sha

so the verse is talking about a command to observe the Middle Prayer at noon (to) sunset , when it finishes ... this is Isha

As I said, your translation of 1778 is terrible.

Quran uphold the salat li A to B and the reading at dawn
You uphold the salat some part inbetween A to B and another at B and the reading at dawn

In fact, your translation is so bad that there is little point in us discussing further if you are not willing to accept your translation is the lesser likely of the options.

THIS IS ARABIC , why should I believe that Duluk means something else ?

Because it is a FACT that classical Arabic dictionaries provide more than one meaning for "duluk" and the meaning you give is not its primary meaning. If you mean to say "duluk" can only have one possible meaning and that is why I take it to mean "decline from noon" then please state so for all to see. This will give us a good idea of your credibility.

Do you mean that we must pray from noon to sunset ? No , the Arabic text doesn't say uphold Salat (Mn= from) noon to sunset

it says uphold Salat (le=to) (the time) when sun declines from it's highest point (at noon) to sunset , so the meaning is (up hold Middle Prayer at the time between noon and sunset) and this is any time between noon and sunset .. there is no mention to uphold Salat A to B

And I asked you for another example in Quran to support your view. For example Quran says wash hands to elbows (56), i.e. do X A to B, and no-one takes it to mean wash some PART inbetween A and B. It means A to B, simple. If you do not know or cannot find an example to support your view just say so.

it is not a translation , it's to show the story , the sun is not mentioned literally but the story is talking about prophet Solomon when he forgot to observe Middle Prayer until he realized that (it) had already vanished behind the line of the horizon

so (it) must be the sun , any other suggestions ?

My knowledge of Arabic is fairly basic but it seems you are arguing Quran references an unmentioned object - this would be very rare, AND you state it must be sun and seemingly cannot think of anything else, e.g. horses. Are you saying it is impossible for it to be horses?

Actually there must be more than 2 ritual prayers in the day according to that verse
if you read the Quran carefully you must notice that when the command is to observe Salat for all of our life , Quran uses the singular form of Salat

No, this is your fanciful interpretation. Bear in mind that nowhere in Quran does it say "aqimu/uphold salawat".

Middle Prayer is Al-Salat Al(WUsta) while the other words are DIFFERENT

Again .. let's use Arabic dictionaries

WUSTA is NOT WASAT , the plural form of WASAT is AWSAT while the plural form of WUSTA is WUSAT

WUSAT means MIDDLE while WASAT means MODEST etc...

check this link

http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D9%88%D8%B3%D8%B7%D9%89/

Not according to the Classical Arabic dictionary evidence here
http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=wsT
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000196.pdf

I hope your selective reading of sources is not affecting your views.

Kikotsu

Peace Kikotsu.

You say
your understanding of Night is wrong , Night DOES NOT begin when the last ray of light disappear from the sky , actually is begins when the sun is setting but there is still light in the sky

Then by your logic,there is no "fajr" since it is still part of night? 2 separate windows for 2 prayers" Fajr" and "Isha"!

My understanding is as follows
"Fajr,Midday, Middle prayer , Sunset (Dusk) prayer - the other part mentioned with "Jajr", and Isha ( During the night)".These are my 5 specific,parts of the day/night prayers in Qoran.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

There is no Fajr according to my logic ? o.O

anyway

GOD bless you

Peace

Kikotsu

Hello Kikotsu,

Hello Brother

everyone asks the same questions , nobody even reads the answers , if you read my posts you will find the answers for these questions , anyway I will answer these repeated questions again

I hope by a "described name" you are not now moving the goal posts (i.e. modifying your original point) and that was "al masjid al haram" is a name, i.e. proper noun like "Abraham" for example. In the examples you gave you used the words actual meaning, i.e. their actual descriptions which is of course not a proper noun. Just because you and some traditionalists use capital letters when discussing these terms in English does not make them proper nouns in Arabic.

Quranic FACT al salat al wusta is NOT in the same form as salat al fajr / salat al 3sha

this is because you don't know Arabic , in Arabic , one name can be one word , two words .. etc .. like Balabak this is a city name which made from two words (Bala+bak) also Hadramaot (Hadra+maot) these are examples for the combined form of names (two words are combined together to form one word) , we also the examples of Al-Masjid Al-Haram which is a name made from two words (not combined) Al-Masjid + Al-Haram , we also have Al-Masjid Al-Umaoy (the Umayyad Mosque) , Al-Masjid Al-Aqusa (this is a Mosque in Palestine) , Al-Mashro' Al-Sabe' this is a region in my city etc... all of them are NAMES , this is a FACT even if you denied it

Even in English this form of names are know , it is some how like (the White Hose)

As I said, your translation of 1778 is terrible.

Quran uphold the salat li A to B and the reading at dawn
You uphold the salat some part inbetween A to B and another at B and the reading at dawn

In fact, your translation is so bad that there is little point in us discussing further if you are not willing to accept your translation is the lesser likely of the options.

the command is to uphold the Salat to the time (when sun declines from it's highest point to sunset) this is one time , the time when sun declines from it's highest point and moves towards sunset is ONE TIME , ONE PERIOD OF TIME , called (after Zawal) check Arabic dictionaries

http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%B2%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84/

this is one time , you must pray at this time , you can pray for 1 minute , 2 minutes , 5 minutes , 1 hour ... as much as you want , the important thing is to pray at that time

examples let's say that the launch time is between 1200 pm and 400 pm ... one person ate his launch at 100 pm then he went to his aunt's house , she told him that she is preparing launch so he can join her , but he tells her that he had already ate his launch at 100 am so he will not join her , according to you , he must eat with his aunt because this is launch time ! but actually , the important thing is that he ate his launch once between 1200 pm and 400 pm , there is no need to keep eating all the time between 1200 pm and 400 pm

Because it is a FACT that classical Arabic dictionaries provide more than one meaning for "duluk" and the meaning you give is not its primary meaning. If you mean to say "duluk" can only have one possible meaning and that is why I take it to mean "decline from noon" then please state so for all to see. This will give us a good idea of your credibility.

there are two meanings for Duluk Al-Shams , one of them is (Decline from noon to sunset) and the other is (Decline from sunset to the first dark of the Night) and this is not logical , as we know , we have a ritual prayer at sunset and it is Isha Prayer , the verse can't mean (uphold Salat from sunset to Isha/the first dark of night) then we have to observe Isha prayer ? if sunset is at 700 pm and the first dark on night is at 800 pm , then it's like GOD telling us to pray from 700 pm to 800 then immediately pray from 800 pm to about 900 pm !!!

another reason is the first meaning (Decline from noon to sunset) is the most used one , it's the original one

so if it been said what is the Duluk (Declination) in the tongue of Arabs ? it is to be said Duluk (Declination) -is- noon , so , it is said to sun if it declined half of the day , a declined one

https//library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?idfrom=2713&idto=2713&bk_no=122&ID=2716

Another reason is that Middle Prayer must be between the two ends of the day (sunset and sunrise) which is Noon ,, of course ! SUNSET is not between (SUNSET and sunrise)

Not according to the Classical Arabic dictionary evidence here
http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=wsT
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000196.pdf

I hope your selective reading of sources is not affecting your views.

so ? it still means (Middle) !! the link provides nothing ! please tell me your point or copy the word from the dictionary so I can check it because Wusta still means Middle in all the dictionaries

anyway the same verse gives us evidence

Maintain with care the prayers and the middle prayer and stand before Allah , devoutly obedient.

(stand before Allah , devoutly obedient.) this part is important , as we know , Standing is part of ritual prayers , so why did GOD mention it in the same verse after mentioning Salat ?
this verse remind us to stand devoutly obedient before GOD it also reminds us to observe Middle Prayer which comes at time when people are at their work

Peace

Wakas

peace Kikotsu,

Thanks for reply.

Let me summarise, which may well be returned to later

You claim "al salat al wusta" is a name, just like "al masjid al haram" according to you. I disagree based on what I know, but I am willing to have this out there, so others can check your credibility.
Quote "...the verse can't mean (uphold Salat from sunset to Isha/the first dark of night) then we have to observe Isha prayer ? if sunset is at 700 pm and the first dark on night is at 800 pm , then it's like GOD telling us to pray from 700 pm to 800 then immediately pray from 800 pm to about 900 pm !!!"

That's only a problem for your 3-salat view, not my view.

You claimed it must be "sun" in 3832. I asked you if it could be horses. You were silent. I am happy to leave this out there, so others can check your credibility.
Thanks for admitting there is an alternative for "duluk" and not only your option. At first you seemed to be implying it cannot mean anything other than your view.
In case I am not clear, I am saying "wusta" can mean "middle" as well as "most excellent" for example, as blatantly stated in Lane. You seem to be claiming classical arabic dictionaries only have one meaning for "wusta" and that is "middle". I am happy to leave this out there, so others can check your credibility.
You bring no Quranic example to support your view of 1778, i.e. "li A to B".
You ignored other points in point 11, e.g. when it says one can do so walking/riding, which salat does it refer to, all or alleged "middle"?

8 ) You ignore 1778 in which "salat" is singular, by inserting another.

Kikotsu

peace Kikotsu,

Peace brother

You claim "al salat al wusta" is a name, just like "al masjid al haram" according to you. I disagree based on what I know, but I am willing to have this out there, so others can check your credibility.

Yes , anyone can check my credibility by his own

Quote "...the verse can't mean (uphold Salat from sunset to Isha/the first dark of night) then we have to observe Isha prayer ? if sunset is at 700 pm and the first dark on night is at 800 pm , then it's like GOD telling us to pray from 700 pm to 800 then immediately pray from 800 pm to about 900 pm !!!"

That's only a problem for your 3-salat view, not my view.

This is not a problem for me , I really understand the verses because they are clear , above is one reason out of many reasons why Declination of Sun is at Noon

You claimed it must be "sun" in 3832. I asked you if it could be horses. You were silent. I am happy to leave this out there, so others can check your credibility.

I have left it because it won't affect the discussion , and No it couldn't be horses , why do you think it could be horses that vanished behind the line of horizon ?

Thanks for admitting there is an alternative for "duluk" and not only your option. At first you seemed to be implying it cannot mean anything other than your view.

Duluk Al-Shams mean Declination of Sun from it's highest point in sky at noon to sunset , I don't know why did you ignore my proof

so if it been said what is the Duluk (Declination) in the tongue of Arabs ? it is to be said Duluk (Declination) -is- noon , so , it is said to sun if it declined half of the day , a declined one

In case I am not clear, I am saying "wusta" can mean "middle" as well as "most excellent" for example, as blatantly stated in Lane. You seem to be claiming classical arabic dictionaries only have one meaning for "wusta" and that is "middle". I am happy to leave this out there, so others can check your credibility.

I gave you many reasons why Wusta CAN'T MEAN "most excellent" , if it means most excellent , the words would be (Al-Salat AL-AWSAT)

NOT (AL-WUSTA)

You bring no Quranic example to support your view of 1778, i.e. "li A to B".

there is no need ! , this is a clear Arabic ! , Do we need a Quranic proof to know that washing your face means washing your face !
I repeat , observe the Salat to the time , this is one period of time , you have to observe Salat during that one period of time , anytime during that period is good , you can spend as much as you wish in Salat , I don't know what is the Quranic example you want , can you please be more accurate ?

You ignored other points in point 11, e.g. when it says one can do so walking/riding, which salat does it refer to, all or alleged "middle"?

do you mean 2239 ? of course it refer to all ritual prayers

8 ) You ignore 1778 in which "salat" is singular, by inserting another.

I didn't understand ! can you please explain more ?