Is it zina?
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My conscious is penetrable and soft like wool. But you, on the other hand, seem to be a superhuman with a bulletproof conscience.
Well you're kinda wrong, from my "Salat is not physical" post you managed to convince me that salat isn't really physical, and i'm grateful for that and god bless you, but your accusation about me being not open minded and inventing lies towards God seems to came out of nowhere, i've stated the reason why a gf/bf relationship is on the same level because of this verse saying wives committed by oath;
" O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,..."
Then please explain to me how i'm inventing lies towards GOD, since my opinion is based on my own interpretation that's different than your's which you too have that some i don't agree with.
And if you say that boyfriend/girlfriend relationships are categorized as wives, then you might be inventing a lie against God. Because God is the author of the Quran. Hence the words in the quran are God's words. Therefore, I advise you to refrain from saying such a thing in the future. By the way, there are many verses in the Quran that warn us from inventing lies against God. If I were you, I would read them (see verse 3094, 450, 5103, 621, 693, 6144, 737, 1017, 1059, 1060, 10 69, 1118, and 6117).
People in this forum seems to forget that we're in a forum called "Free-minds" where people can share their thoughts and wondrous interpretation of the quran without hesitation and without worrying that they'll get lynced or be labeled as blasphemers.
Like it or not the quran has a lot of interpretation, you have your own interpretation and i have mine, and keep in mind that not everyone in this forum agrees on your interpretation also.
So please think before you accuse me of inventing lies towards god or not open minded(superhuman with a bulletproof conscience) out of the blue, not trying to spread cancer in free-minds or anything we just have our own interpretaion
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When I first read your early posts on this thread I thought they seemed insincere (i.e. you weren't interested in what Quran says, and simply wanted answers that would justify your pre-conceived views).
Your lack of reply to the points in my posts, failure to provide Quranic evidence and your subsequent posts, especially the one above confirms what I thought about you is true.In my view you are not sincere, thus not worth replying to. Peace out.
no one's forcing you to, peace
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Peace kamenriderkiki,
This is what I wrote in my post
"And if you say that boyfriend/girlfriend relationships are categorized as wives, then you might be inventing a lie against God."
I DID NOT say that you are inventing a lie against God. I said that you might be inventing a lie against God. There is a difference between you are inventing a lie and you might be inventing a lie. Please ponder on this.
You seemed to be following your selfish purposes/desires (in some of your posts in this thread). Because, instead of letting the evidence in the Quran speak for itself, you seemed to be looking for reasons that support your preconceived notions about sexual relations. If you have made up your mind that girlfriends/boyfriends can have sexual relations before marriage, then you will only look for reasons that support your preconceived notions. And if I or someone else tell you something that goes against your preconceived notions, it will fall on deaf ears.
Also, you seemed to be dismissing Quranic evidence that went against your view about sexual relations before marriage (in some of your posts in this thread). Therefore, I was harsh with you because I thought it was the best way for you to learn. If I was deceiving myself by ignoring/dismissing/rejecting Quranic evidence, then I would want you to tell me that I am wrong and disprove my views. And I would want you to use a harsh approach towards me. Because sometimes, that is the only thing that can shake us out of our slumber and make us understand that we are deceiving ourselves and leading ourselves down the path of darkness.
Also, you seemed to be implying that sexual relations between girlfriends/boyfriends is sanctioned/permitted by the Quran (in your first post in this thread). When I and Wakas showed you Quranic verses that did not support your view, you seemed to ignore/dismiss them. I believe that it is our duty to tell eachother what is incompatible with the teachings of the Quran. Therefore I can not tell you what you want to hear, but I will tell you what you need to hear. If someone is trying to jump down from a building, one should not tell him or her to jump, in my opinion. But I think that one should try to save that person, even if ones method is HARSH. In my view, sometimes one has to be harsh in order to get a point across. If I was deceiving myself by ignoring/dismissing Quranic evidence, then I would want you to tell me the same things that I told you (in my post). But each to their own, I guess.
The Quran suggests that every man and woman has sinned/wronged themselves at least once during their lifetime (see verse 3545). Also, it seems that all humans have a dark side. I think that one of the aims/objectives of this life is to eliminate our dark side. The Quran suggests that we will be held to account for all of our deeds in the next life. Therefore I think that it would be prudent to not do an action if it IS NOT RIGHT. Because an action that is not right seems to be BAD FOR THE SOUL/SELF. It seems that the devil sometimes tries to tempt God's servants in a tricky way. Therefore I think that it is vital to be aware/conscious of the vicious tricks of the devil. I would like to share a quote from a movie with you. In the 1995 movie "Usual Suspects", Roger "Verbal" Kint says the following
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
The Quran suggests that the devil advocates immorality and vice (see verse 2141). Also, the Quran suggests that the devil is an enemy to mankind (see verse 2168, 2208, 6147 and 722). Whether the devil is a force inside of ourselves or outside of ourselves, does not matter, in my opinion. In my view, the only thing which matters is the notion that the devil exists. And the notion that the devil exists, seems to be a fact. Also, the Quran seems to suggest that the devil has no power/influence over the faithful servants of God (see verse 1542 and 1765).
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Peace kamenriderkiki,
This is what I wrote in my post
"And if you say that boyfriend/girlfriend relationships are categorized as wives, then you might be inventing a lie against God."
I DID NOT say that you are inventing a lie against God. I said that you might be inventing a lie against God. There is a difference between you are inventing a lie and you might be inventing a lie. Please ponder on this.
You seemed to be following your selfish purposes/desires (in some of your posts in this thread). Because, instead of letting the evidence in the Quran speak for itself, you seemed to be looking for reasons that support your preconceived notions about sexual relations. If you have made up your mind that girlfriends/boyfriends can have sexual relations before marriage, then you will only look for reasons that support your preconceived notions. And if I or someone else tell you something that goes against your preconceived notions, it will fall on deaf ears.
Also, you seemed to be dismissing Quranic evidence that went against your view about sexual relations before marriage (in some of your posts in this thread). Therefore, I was harsh with you because I thought it was the best way for you to learn. If I was deceiving myself by ignoring/dismissing/rejecting Quranic evidence, then I would want you to tell me that I am wrong and disprove my views. And I would want you to use a harsh approach towards me. Because sometimes, that is the only thing that can shake us out of our slumber and make us understand that we are deceiving ourselves and leading ourselves down the path of darkness.
Also, you seemed to be implying that sexual relations between girlfriends/boyfriends is sanctioned/permitted by the Quran (in your first post in this thread). When I and Wakas showed you Quranic verses that did not support your view, you seemed to ignore/dismiss them. I believe that it is our duty to tell eachother what is incompatible with the teachings of the Quran. Therefore I can not tell you what you want to hear, but I will tell you what you need to hear. If someone is trying to jump down from a building, one should not tell him or her to jump, in my opinion. But I think that one should try to save that person, even if ones method is HARSH. In my view, sometimes one has to be harsh in order to get a point across. If I was deceiving myself by ignoring/dismissing Quranic evidence, then I would want you to tell me the same things that I told you (in my post). But each to their own, I guess.
The Quran suggests that every man and woman has sinned/wronged themselves at least once during their lifetime (see verse 3545). Also, it seems that all humans have a dark side. I think that one of the aims/objectives of this life is to eliminate our dark side. The Quran suggests that we will be held to account for all of our deeds in the next life. Therefore I think that it would be prudent to not do an action if it IS NOT RIGHT. Because an action that is not right seems to be BAD FOR THE SOUL/SELF. It seems that the devil sometimes tries to tempt God's servants in a tricky way. Therefore I think that it is vital to be aware/conscious of the vicious tricks of the devil. I would like to share a quote from a movie with you. In the 1995 movie "Usual Suspects", Roger "Verbal" Kint says the following
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."
The Quran suggests that the devil advocates immorality and vice (see verse 2141). Also, the Quran suggests that the devil is an enemy to mankind (see verse 2168, 2208, 6147 and 722). Whether the devil is a force inside of ourselves or outside of ourselves, does not matter, in my opinion. In my view, the only thing which matters is the notion that the devil exists. And the notion that the devil exists, seems to be a fact. Also, the Quran seems to suggest that the devil has no power/influence over the faithful servants of God (see verse 1542 and 1765).
Okay Peace Taro, you know the quran doesn't tell us to have a big ceremony or anything or somekind of witness,right? and in god explains there's another way of marriage without dowry and that is commitment by oath, and i didn't dismiss wakas or your suggestions on some quranic verse i've read them all before i even started the thread!
The quran said there are wives that are lawful by dowry and oath, dowry seems to be another way to get married with your money and by a certain oath committed(without dowry) you can fall into the same category as married too
And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?
Plus a marriage should not be determined with papers, and marriage issues should be solved by the couple without lawyers or a law involved to reduce hardships in a certain divorce
And once again i did not reject the quranic verse that you and @wakas brought me, but i'm trying to say that the quran provides a way for a couple to be categorized as married without dowry and that is by oath which a couple does before entering in a relationship.
Please hold your suspicion how i follow my greedy desire and @Wakas suspicions about how i ignore the quran and how insencere i am, i'm only here to have a healthy non-emotional discussion
O you who have believed, avoid much assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.
The reason i believe a gf/bf relationship is that i believe that the quran was supposed to evolve as time passes by and i believe that god uses flexible words to allow time and place to fit that person's situation.like in;
2431 "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary."
god didn't told us what is necessary is but at some part of a certain country you need to be a little revealing if you want to fit in as time goes by this verse evolve, like wearing a hijab in the us, bad idea
and in O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
as time evolve
al-khamr(intoxicants) can mean drugs or any pharmaceutical ones that humans develop that can be a tool by the devil not just liquors
Al-Maisir(gamblin/games of chance) as time evolve it can be understood that it's just not gambling but any kind of game that involve luck and chance, for instance i got so hooked up in csgo that i forgot to salat, and in 591 al khamr and al-maisir are used to prevent believers from remebering god and contact prayer in todays world video games seems to be in the same cateogry as liquors because players have forgotten about salat after getting so
Al-Ansab(shrines) can mean any kind of place of worship not just altars but any kinds of place that involve a certain religious practice which by today used to manipulate their believers into doing evil things like spreading anti-semitism and such which probably all of us can relate
"Al-Azlam"(arrows of chance)in today's society, if they're in a tight situation they flip a coin to determined what they'll do next or any kind of decision making that uses luck even without arrows.
Now this is the reason why the quran was supposed to evolve, after i realized this my beliefs got stronger on how the quran was briliantly written and how god was such an amazing artist! But if these tools of devils can evolve after a lifetime then so can the definition of what marriage is, this is the reason why i believe a bf/gf= husband/wife according to the quran.
And i've realized also that to prevent diseases like AIDS to spread we cannot teach our kids that sex with your gf is sin or forbidden or go to hell because they'll just forget from time to time, but what we need is to teach them about loyalty, whether it's in a gf/bf relationship or legal marriage it's the loyalty, trust, and compassion that needs to be taught to to a kid, and with this technique when they're a fully grown mature adult they've already learned to respect the partner that has given her whole body and soul to and i guarantee STD's and any other disease will dicrease every year as long as we see pass out of our traditional views on what marriage is.
And i think that's about it, that's my reason on how the quran evolves after a centuries and so as the definition of marriage from time to time
Btw nice Keizer soze quote! love kevin spacey! and the movie(watched it 2 times and loved every bryan singers movie) )
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When I first read your early posts on this thread I thought they seemed insincere (i.e. you weren't interested in what Quran says, and simply wanted answers that would justify your pre-conceived views).
Your lack of reply to the points in my posts, failure to provide Quranic evidence and your subsequent posts, especially the one above confirms what I thought about you is true.In my view you are not sincere, thus not worth replying to. Peace out.
O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,...
I have provided a verse which states there is a way to marry without dowry and that is by oath
Ask yourself wakas before you label me as insincere, you seemed to disagree also that this verse is saying there other ways to marry without dowry,are you being insincere also, and nothing in the quran that says we need an imam or a fancy seremony to be marriedand a gf/bf relationship seems to fit right in your conditions before marriage below
What does The Quran say about marriage?
The Quran gives guidelines and mentions situations and conditions that should be considered before marriage
Determining mutual attraction/compatibility
Ascertaining whether the potential partner is of similar beliefs/faith
Discussion of and agreeing to the level of dower and other terms (if any)
Understanding and mutual acceptance of marriage as a solemn/strong oath/contract
If male, capable of providing for the family/household
To have physically matured / post-pubertyIf the marriage is unsuccessful, one should also be capable of undertaking divorce proceedings, e.g. separation period, arbitration, discussion of settlement etc .
Determining mutual attraction/compatibility CHECK
Ascertaining whether the potential partner is of similar beliefs/faith CHECK
Discussion of and agreeing to the level of dower and other terms (if any) (GF/BF relationship is a dowerless marriage and falls into the category of verse 3350)CHECK(They do a solemn oath)
Understanding and mutual acceptance of marriage as a solemn/strong oath/contract CHECK(They do a solemn oath)
If male, capable of providing for the family/household CHECK(The male usually provides more but sometimes each other if they're staying in the same house)
To have physically matured / post-puberty CHECK(In reality gf/bf relationships occurs in puberty they recognize love and intimacy after puberty)O you who have believed, avoid much assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.
Before you label me as insincere ask yourself why you disagree with the verse that says marriage with commitment by oath is possible is yourself being insincere also??A gf/bf relationship seems to check out above and the verse 3350 and, and @Wakas i didn't come here to have an emotional debate or judge or label people from what they think or write, i'm only here to have a healthy discussion
And do read my reply to TaroHiroshi on why the quran was meant to evolve from time to time
I'm interested to hear from you or your response @Wakas
Peace
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4.21.
And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant? (21)This talking about marriage.
What is marriage? The signing of some papepr or the uttering of some words, or on the other thand THIS that the Qur'an calls "mithaq galith", that is going unto each other, or what is commongly called consumation or find "having sex".
This " mithaq ghalith" that Yusuf Ali translates a solemn covenant appears some other times int he Qur'an, ALL OF THEM, referring to a covenant between God and his prophets or between -god and the prophets people.
The mithaq galith is obviously the sexual act betwen the woman and the man.
?Is that marriage? Before God it obviously is. And in fact along history there has been a conscience that that is marriage, even if just "plain marriage", like de fato marriage or common law marriage.
Of course, people have been having sex without any intention at all of being in a mithaq ghalith. Does that mean that marriage is something else?
Yes for peole who do that marriage is something else, but not for God, because in no other case where the sex is not mentionned does God say or call anything mithaq ghalith.
Salaam
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Kamenriderkiki,
Firstly, you refer to a verse that is CLEARLY directed to the prophet. Do you take other verses directed to the prophet for all believers? Or have you not bothered to research this?
Secondly, you didn't mention anything about a contract. Probably because you either did not read my following posts in this thread or you did but selectively chose to ignore the information.
To have the marriage contract/oaths witnessed
And lastly, you did not comment on others posts about chastity before marriage, and not allowing for lewdness/illicit sex / secret lovers, e.g. 425, 55 etc.
If you are so confident of your position, simply write an article about it, tackling the potential objections/problems of your argument (e.g. some of them raised in this thread). Take your time, spend weeks, even months if you want. If you do that, then I might think you are sincere.
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Kamenriderkiki,
Firstly, you refer to a verse that is CLEARLY directed to the prophet. Do you take other verses directed to the prophet for all believers? Or have you not bothered to research this?
Secondly, you didn't mention anything about a contract. Probably because you either did not read my following posts in this thread or you did but selectively chose to ignore the information.
And lastly, you did not comment on others posts about chastity before marriage, and not allowing for lewdness/illicit sex / secret lovers, e.g. 425, 55 etc.
If you are so confident of your position, simply write an article about it, tackling the potential objections/problems of your argument (e.g. some of them raised in this thread). Take your time, spend weeks, even months if you want. If you do that, then I might think you are sincere.
O ye who believe! obey God, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Messenger, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (4 59)
The same message that the prophet got is the same for the other believers as well Wakas, They're humans just like us, no different, even they can't use their miracles as they please, only when God told them to
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Peace Taro Hiroshi,
I posted some questions earlier in this thread but no one has answered them yet
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376593#msg376593
When I initially started studying al-quran I used to think like you about this issue but with further deep study, I was shocked to find out that some of my preconceived beliefs about this issue were not actually supported by al-quran! My personal desire and personal understanding might be that sexual relations outside marriage are forbidden, but is that personal desire or personal understanding really supported by al-quran?
There is a very long 100+ page thread on this forum where this very issue was discussed and debated in past, in which even some "heavyweights" participated, and you will be surprised at the conclusions based on quranic evidence. I will highly recommend reading it in its entirety if you really want to get to the bottom of this issue as per al-quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599777.0
A summary of this thread is as follows, but I would urge you to read the entire long thread to understand all the fine points
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604063.0
From my understanding of the Quran, if someone has sexual relations outside of marriage (with a boyfriend/girlfriend), then he/she is being disobedient. Because he/she is not obeying the laws/commandments of the Quran.
Can you please provide evidence from al-quran to support this quote of yours? More specifically, please provide proof from al-quran that all sexual relations outside of marriage are forbidden with MMA. Please read the above referenced thread first; provision of this proof is not expected in a hurry.
The general principal of al-quran is that the default state is not "forbidden" but DEFAULT STATE IS "PERMITTED". For example, in another thread hawk99 issued a challenge to anyone to show whether physical prostration is forbidden in al-quran, and if it is not forbidden, it is by default permitted. In other words, if something is not expressly/explicitly permitted in al-quran, it does not mean it is not permitted or that it is forbidden, unless it is expressly/explicitly forbidden.
Peace
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Okay Peace Taro, you know the quran doesn't tell us to have a big ceremony or anything or somekind of witness,right? and in god explains there's another way of marriage without dowry and that is commitment by oath, and i didn't dismiss wakas or your suggestions on some quranic verse i've read them all before i even started the thread!
The quran said there are wives that are lawful by dowry and oath, dowry seems to be another way to get married with your money and by a certain oath committed(without dowry) you can fall into the same category as married too
And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?
Plus a marriage should not be determined with papers, and marriage issues should be solved by the couple without lawyers or a law involved to reduce hardships in a certain divorce
And once again i did not reject the quranic verse that you and @wakas brought me, but i'm trying to say that the quran provides a way for a couple to be categorized as married without dowry and that is by oath which a couple does before entering in a relationship.
Please hold your suspicion how i follow my greedy desire and @Wakas suspicions about how i ignore the quran and how insencere i am, i'm only here to have a healthy non-emotional discussion
O you who have believed, avoid much assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.
The reason i believe a gf/bf relationship is that i believe that the quran was supposed to evolve as time passes by and i believe that god uses flexible words to allow time and place to fit that person's situation.like in;
2431 "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary."
god didn't told us what is necessary is but at some part of a certain country you need to be a little revealing if you want to fit in as time goes by this verse evolve, like wearing a hijab in the us, bad idea
and in O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
as time evolve
al-khamr(intoxicants) can mean drugs or any pharmaceutical ones that humans develop that can be a tool by the devil not just liquors
Al-Maisir(gamblin/games of chance) as time evolve it can be understood that it's just not gambling but any kind of game that involve luck and chance, for instance i got so hooked up in csgo that i forgot to salat, and in 591 al khamr and al-maisir are used to prevent believers from remebering god and contact prayer in todays world video games seems to be in the same cateogry as liquors because players have forgotten about salat after getting so
Al-Ansab(shrines) can mean any kind of place of worship not just altars but any kinds of place that involve a certain religious practice which by today used to manipulate their believers into doing evil things like spreading anti-semitism and such which probably all of us can relate
"Al-Azlam"(arrows of chance)in today's society, if they're in a tight situation they flip a coin to determined what they'll do next or any kind of decision making that uses luck even without arrows.
Now this is the reason why the quran was supposed to evolve, after i realized this my beliefs got stronger on how the quran was briliantly written and how god was such an amazing artist! But if these tools of devils can evolve after a lifetime then so can the definition of what marriage is, this is the reason why i believe a bf/gf= husband/wife according to the quran.
And i've realized also that to prevent diseases like AIDS to spread we cannot teach our kids that sex with your gf is sin or forbidden or go to hell because they'll just forget from time to time, but what we need is to teach them about loyalty, whether it's in a gf/bf relationship or legal marriage it's the loyalty, trust, and compassion that needs to be taught to to a kid, and with this technique when they're a fully grown mature adult they've already learned to respect the partner that has given her whole body and soul to and i guarantee STD's and any other disease will dicrease every year as long as we see pass out of our traditional views on what marriage is.
And i think that's about it, that's my reason on how the quran evolves after a centuries and so as the definition of marriage from time to time
Btw nice Keizer soze quote! love kevin spacey! and the movie(watched it 2 times and loved every bryan singers movie)
I have to say I agree with both you and Taro to some degree.
With me, I have had sexual relations with my "boyfriends", but i do not call them boyfriends. They are my partner, a partner who I hope I will be with for a very long time. To me, when I get to know a man, and our relationship turns from friendship to something more, I ask if he is willing to commit himself to me and me alone - God be our witness. To me, this is an oath that is taken out between us - is that no essentially what a marriage is? What can be deemed as a dowry? What is deemed as a marriage? I am quite against the whole idea that in order for you to be married you need a ring on your finger and signing some book. As Man Of Faith once said to me, a marriage is between you, the other person and God. AND, you must not be promiscuous or trying to keep your feelings/relationship hidden from anyone else i.e. family etc. If you are true to yourself and know your intentions, there shouldn't be a need to "fit" the quran into your understanding. It is simply a guide - one that you can choose to follow or not, and the consequences of following and not following it are obvious because of how life will manifest itself.
This is a part of a discussion me and MoF were having together a while back
"God does actually say that an oath taken verbally is valid but that a formal "marriage contact" is for the benefit of both. One does not even need any other witness than God for the verbal one. Although in some communities it may look negative because people simply cannot comprehend that a marriage oath can be taken straight with God. God recommends following the laws to keep the respect, even if God accepts it as it is. A marriage ceremony is not required, simply writing a marriage contract by law is sufficient. Many women, perhaps also men, appreciate something romantic though and a memory."
God knows what is in our hearts... If we do not wish to be with someone for a long period of time or for the foreseeable future, then I would say it is not correct/good for the soul to do such a thing. I, myself, have done that once in my life where I didn't know the person for very long and they took advantage. But I had no enjoyment out of it and i was a bit scared to say no or run... but i wouldn't say that's following ones desires (there were none...). The desire to be with someone i.e. be held, cuddled, talked to, and understood is a much more powerful feeling to believers and ones who wish to live a moral decent life than those who wish to take advantage and release their sexual desires on others. I always tell people "if your urge is that bloody high, you have your hands to sort yourself out if need be... atleast it will tame your feelings and prevent you from giving yourself away to someone you don't even love/want to be with long-term". Sorry to be graphic about it, but that's literally how i see it... And love should rise above lust.... but with love, does come the need to sometimes be intimate with a loved one, and God outlines how you should be dealing with the situation and what your thoughts/actions should be. Everyone gets desires, but we must control them because of the effect it can have on ourselves and others.
Peace,
Sushi -
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it seem silly to give someone a hundred lashes for pre-marital sex and even compare them to polytheists?
Zina cannot be pre-marital sex because of the comparison that was made in the Quran between them and polytheists. Polytheists and adulterers have nothing in common so zina just can't be pre-marital sex/cheating with spouse. There are some occult worshippers who engage in sex magic. Alistair Crowley, the maternal grandfather of GW Bush used to engage in it. He performed sex orgies(group sex) and rape. Look up the book "Magick Alistair Crowley"On top of that, premarital sex and chastity has been addressed separately in the Quran several times.
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Sneeze*
Zina is infidelity.
If you're interested, it was once discussed
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9605270.0 -
Peace everyone,
I agree with sushi1992 to some degree. I don't believe that a woman needs a ring on her finger in order to be married. It seems that marriage today has become institutionalized. And it seems that many couples focus more on formalities instead of making a heart-commitment to each other, in these days. I think that if the heart of a man and woman is not united (tied to each other), then the marriage contract is not worth much. It seems that it is only possible to create a strong bond in a relationship, if the bond is connected to the heart of a man and a woman. In other words, it seems that the bond between a man and a woman has to be mental/spiritual. In my view, similar/identical beliefs (which is mental/spiritual) is the only thing which can unite the heart of a man and a woman (see verses 3103, 863 and 5914).
I think that the only true/honest/sincere commitment is a heart-commitment. That being said, I still believe that a "marriage contract" is important/useful. Because in verse 2433, the Quran suggests that one should document ones commitment with an engaged partner. And I believe that there is a purpose/wisdom behind this Quranic guideline. Without a heart-commitment to someone, a marriage contract does not seem to have any value at all. But it seems that if a man and a woman have a heart-commitment to eachother, then a marriage contract can solidify their commitment and make it stronger.
In verse 2433, the Quran suggests that a couple should document their marriage (i.e. have a marriage contract).
English transcription
Quran 2433 WalyastaAAfifi allatheena layajidoona nikahan hatta yughniyahumu Allahumin fadlihi waallatheena yabtaghoona alkitabamimma malakat aymanukum fakatiboohum inAAalimtum feehim khayran waatoohum min mali Allahiallathee atakum wala tukrihoo fatayatikumAAala albigha-i in aradna tahassunanlitabtaghoo AAarada alhayati alddunyawaman yukrihhunna fa-inna Allaha min baAAdi ikrahihinnaghafoorun raheemunQuran 2433 And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your young women to need if they have desired to be independent, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. And if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.
According to verse 2433 above, those maintained by your oaths (i.e. Ma Malakat aymanukum) should document their marriage if they want to consummate/fulfill their marriage. In my view, the word mma (Ma malakat aymanukum) means different things according different contexts in different verses of the Quran. In verse 2433 "those those maintained by your oaths" (i.e. Ma Malakat aymanukum) seems to mean "engaged partners." And it seems that "those maintained by your oaths" will only fulfill/consummate their marriage after documenting their marriage. In other words, it seems that they have to sign a "marriage contract" in order to fullfill/consummate it. If they don't sign a marriage contract, it seems that they will not be recognized as husband and wife according to the Quran. Does this suggest that a man and a woman must sign a marriage contract in order to fullfill/consummate their marriage? Please ponder on this question.
Also, in verse 2431, the Quran suggests that believing females (mumins) must lower their gaze and guard their private parts, and that they should not show off their attraction except what is apparant, and that they should cast their clothes over their bossoms. And then it says that they should not show their attraction (i.e. nakedness) to any other than their husband (in regards to a relationship). If husband is synonomous with a partner/boyfriend, then this verse seems to suggest that a woman can be naked in front of her partner/boyfriend. But if, however, a man only can be considered a Husband after he has signed a marriage contract, then verse 2431 in the Quran, seems to suggest that believing females (mumins) are not allowed to show off their attraction (i.e. nakedness) to any other than their husbands. In order to have sexual relations with the opposite sex, a woman must first be naked. Right? But if the Quran does not allow a woman to be naked in front of any other than her husband (in regards to a relationship), then how can she be naked in front of other than her husband (in regards to a relationship? If a believing woman is only allowed to be naked in front of her husband, then how can she be naked in front of a partner/boyfriend (which is not her husband)? And if a woman is only allowed to have sexual relations with her husband, then how can she have sexual relations with a partner/boyfriend (which is not her husband)? Does that sound logical? Does that sound possible? Let me explain this through an example. Let's say that an employee works for a company. One day there is both chocolate and cookies in the kitchen of that company. The boss tells the employee (worker) that she is only allowed to eat chocolate. The boss tells the employee that she is not allowed to eat cookies. If the boss tells the employee that she is only allowed to eat the chocolate, does this mean that she can eat cookies too? No, that would make no sense. Because she is only allowed to eat chocolate. As mentioned earlier, the Quran suggests that believing females (mumins) are not allowed to show off their attraction (i.e. nakedness) to any other than their husband. If a believing woman is only allowed to be naked in front of her husband, then how can she also be naked in front of a partner/boyfriend (which is not her husband)? Does that sound logical? Does that sound possible? Please ponder on these questions.
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Peace truthseeker11,
Can you please provide evidence from al-quran to support this quote of yours? More specifically, please provide proof from al-quran that all sexual relations outside of marriage are forbidden with MMA. Please read the above referenced thread first; provision of this proof is not expected in a hurry.
My current understanding of the Quran is the following
"A woman can not have sexual relations with other than her husband." Because verse 2431 suggests that a woman is only allowed to be naked in front of her husband (in regards to a relationship). And if a woman is only allowed to be naked in front of her husband, then this suggests that she can only have sexual relations with her husband. And if a woman is only allowed to have sexual relations with her husband, then this suggests that she can not have sexual relations with a boyfriend or a partner (i.e. outside of marriage).
231 The believers are indeed successful.
232 Those who are humble when making their contact prayer.
233 And they abstain from vain talk.
234 And they are active towards purification.
235 And they keep covered their private parts.
236 Except around their mates, or those who are maintained by their oaths, they are free from blame.
237 But whoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.In verse 236, it seems that mma are either engaged partners (with intention of getting married) or doctors/nurses etc. In verses 235-6 the Quran seems to suggest that the believers can only unguard/show their private parts in front of their mates and mma (those who are maintained by their oaths). In my view, mma refers to engaged partners (with intention of getting married) or doctors/nurses in verses 235-6. But I might be wrong. Thus, I strongly recommend questioning/verifying this interpretation; as the Quran has advised us to do (see verse 1736).
Peace and best regards,
Taro peace
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Peace everyone,
I agree with sushi1992 to some degree. I don't believe that a woman needs a ring on her finger in order to be married. It seems that marriage today has become institutionalized. And it seems that many couples focus more on formalities instead of making a heart-commitment to each other, in these days. I think that that if the heart of a man and woman is not united (tied to each other), then the marriage contract is not worth much. It seems that it is only possible to create a strong bond in a relationship, if the bond is connected to the heart of a man and a woman. In other words, it seems that the bond between a man and a woman has to be mental/spiritual. In my view, similar/identical beliefs (which is mental/spiritual) is the only thing which can unite the heart of a man and a woman (see verses 3103, 863 and 5914).
I think that the only true/honest/sincere commitment is a heart-commitment. That being said, I still believe that a "marriage contract" is important/useful. Because in verse 2433, the Quran suggests that one should document ones commitment with an engaged partner. And I believe that there is a purpose/wisdom behind this Quranic guideline. Without a heart-commitment to someone, a marriage contract does not seem to have any value at all. But it seems that if a man and a woman have a heart-commitment to eachother, then a marriage contract can solidify their commitment and make it stronger.
In verse 2433, the Quran suggests that a couple should document their marriage (i.e. have a marriage contract).
English transcription
Quran 2433 WalyastaAAfifi allatheena layajidoona nikahan hatta yughniyahumu Allahumin fadlihi waallatheena yabtaghoona alkitabamimma malakat aymanukum fakatiboohum inAAalimtum feehim khayran waatoohum min mali Allahiallathee atakum wala tukrihoo fatayatikumAAala albigha-i in aradna tahassunanlitabtaghoo AAarada alhayati alddunyawaman yukrihhunna fa-inna Allaha min baAAdi ikrahihinnaghafoorun raheemunQuran 2433 And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your young women to need if they have desired to be independent, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. And if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.
According to verse 2433 above, those maintained by your oaths (i.e. Ma Malakat aymanukum) should document their marriage if they want to consummate/fulfill their marriage. In my view, the word mma (Ma malakat aymanukum) means different things according different contexts in different verses of the Quran. In verse 2433 "those those maintained by your oaths" (i.e. Ma Malakat aymanukum) seems to mean "engaged partners." And it seems that "those maintained by your oaths" will only fulfill/consummate their marriage after documenting their marriage. In other words, it seems that they have to sign a "marriage contract" in order to fullfill/consummate it. If they don't sign a marriage contract, it seems that they will not be recognized as husband and wife according to the Quran. Does this suggest that a man and a woman must sign a marriage contract in order to fullfill/consummate their marriage? Please ponder on this question.
Also, in verse 2431, the Quran suggests that believing females (mumins) must lower their gaze and guard their private parts, and that they should not show off their attraction except what is apparant, and that they should cast their clothes over their bossoms. And then it says that they should not show their attraction (i.e. nakedness) to any other than their husband (in regards to a relationship). If husband is synonomous with a partner/boyfriend, then this verse seems to suggest that a woman can be naked in front of her partner/boyfriend. But if, however, a man only can be considered a Husband after he has signed a marriage contract, then verse 2431 in the Quran, seems to suggest that believing females (mumins) are not allowed to show off their attraction (i.e. nakedness) to any other than their husbands. In order to have sexual relations with the opposite sex, a woman must first be naked. Right? But if the Quran does not allow a woman to be naked in front of any other than her husband (in regards to a relationship), then how can she be naked in front of other than her husband (in regards to a relationship? If a believing woman is only allowed to be naked in front of her husband, then how can she be naked in front of a partner/boyfriend (which is not her husband)? And if a woman is only allowed to have sexual relations with her husband, then how can she have sexual relations with a partner/boyfriend (which is not her husband)? Does that sound logical? Does that sound possible? Let me explain this through an example. Let's say that an employee works for a company. One day there is both chocolate and cookies in the kitchen of that company. The boss tells the employee (worker) that she is only allowed to eat chocolate. The boss tells the employee that she is not allowed to eat cookies. If the boss tells the employee that she is only allowed to eat the chocolate, does this mean that she can eat cookies too? No, that would make no sense. Because she is only allowed to eat chocolate. As mentioned earlier, the Quran suggests that believing females (mumins) are not allowed to show off their attraction (i.e. nakedness) to any other than their husband. If a believing woman is only allowed to be naked in front of her husband, then how can she also be naked in front of a partner/boyfriend (which is not her husband)? Does that sound logical? Does that sound possible? Please ponder on these questions.
Peace Taro & All,
I'll repeat what I said previously. I do not agree with people referring to their other half as "boyfriend" or "girlfriend". Ever since I was young I really didn't like that connotation. If i ever was to have a man, which I have done, they will be my partner. In my head I might refer to them as my husband. Only reason I wouldn't say husband to everyone else is because others might not understand how I think. My parents for one would probably lose the plot if they knew I for example fell in love with someone after a month and he was my "husband" - hence why I say partner.
But anyway, aside from that, I'm seeing a lot of "illicit sex" and "secret lover" references getting thrown about. I'm sorry but, if 2 people are in love and happy being together, who in the right mind would want to keep them a secret? As much as i don't like "bf" and "gf" references, bear in mind these are ONLY LABELS! These labels or words have no weight on them unless we evaluate the actions of someone. Do you call someone "muslim" if they kill people and bomb places and kill christians? Does that name "muslim" actually have any weight on them? No... it doesn't.
I severely have an issue with what defines marriage. What difference does it make if i referred to my lover as a partner or a husband? What about people who are pissed out of their heads, barely know each other, go to Las Vegas, get "married" in the presence of a priest after 5 minutes, and have sex. Is that marriage? Sorry, to me that is NOT marriage. And what exactly is a "marriage contract" anyway? "Document it". How so? How should it be documented? What constitutes documentation? A text between one another? A declaration of your love to the whole of the social network via Facebook? I know one day i'll probably HAVE to sign the register in the UK to declare myself as "married", but I really don't put alot of weight into that "requirement" to be "married". One and only "one" benefit I can see is when it comes to financial dealings - sharing property or assets that are owned by the couple. If "shit hits the fan" (lets be blunt), and the guy wanted to be a right arsehole, he could say right, thanks for the awesome relationship but i don't want to be with you anymore. Yes, it's heartbreak, yes it's painful. BUT, if you were a "married" couple (using my personal definition of marriage) and you DIDN'T own a house or have any shared ownership of anything financially, how is that different to the normal male/female couples you see out there?
People don't get into a relationship to have sex. People get into a relationship because they love each other. They feel they can be with this person for as long as possible. They might have their own idea of marriage in the sense that a marriage is between the man, the woman and God. A marriage is NOT kept secret. You declare each others love and a set of parents know about it. The person(s)'s friends know about it. They know you are taken and he is taken. The relationship status is "documented" in digital formats, not necessarily going to a registry office and signing your name on some piece of paper just because the "law" would deem you married. What about people who used to write on a piece of paper back in the 18ths that said "i am forever yours and you are forever mine. My life partner". What is a life partner? Is a life partner not a wife/husband? Which is more a marriage? An arranged marriage between 2 people who don't know eachother and do not LOVE eachother, yet they are just present in front of some imam and said "yeah we are married" with their parents around. OR, is a marriage when 2 people LOVE eachother, there are many witnesses/people/parents who know/acknowledge that these 2 people are TOGETHER for as long as they hopefully can be, and that it can be found "documented" in multiple places.
I think care needs to be taken into "how" a "marriage" can be documented, because I see multiple ways. Strip out the pagan crap, strip out giving a ring, having a white dress, saying vows and singing with the choir. Take that all out and what are you left with. There should NEVER be any secrecy in love UNLESS you fear for your life/well-being (parents might hate you/want to kill you/tear you apart), but even then, there will be other people in the world who will know your relationship status. If someone asks me why I didn't go to the registry office each time (i've had 3 partners in my 23 years of my life) I committed myself to a man, it would SIMPLY be because of how my parents and perhaps other people in society (who believe in just normal boyfriend/girlfriend crap) would perceive it. Also, perhaps the man might also not think that signing the registry is a declaration of marriage and maybe they had the same mentality as me. Maybe the important thing to both the man and female was that others knew what they were... and most importantly, God knew what they were and what was in their hearts.
As Huruf mentioned earlier and as I have mentioned above, the "marriage contract" in the sense of, for example, the UK where you sign a book, would be beneficial, is that the man can't screw you over with financial assets you share.
Let's not be a little close minded and not see how these things can be interpreted differently. A relationship or a marriage is not about sex or intimacy. It can be a part of it. It's not necessary either! But it is a small part of it, but not at all the most important.
Sorry if i side-tracked...
Peace,
Sushi -
Peace sushi1992,
Thank you for post.
I think you raise some good points in your post. And I think we agree on more than we disagree on )
By the way, I have a question. Do you believe that marriage between a man and a woman is more serious and a greater commitment than a relationship (outside of marriage)? If yes, why? If no, why?
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts.
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Peace sushi1992,
Thank you for post.
I think you raise some good points in your post. And I think we agree on more than we disagree on
By the way, I have a question. Do you believe that marriage between a man and a woman is more serious and a greater commitment than a relationship (outside of marriage)? If yes, why? If no, why?
It would be interesting to hear your thoughts.
Peace Taro,
I'm glad we agree on more than we disagree . I have quite a pure outlook to relationships a lot of the time. As I mentioned, minus the odd desires every now and then, sex to me is nothing... I actually have never involved myself in that specific act, but the point i was trying to make was the intimacy between 2 people who love each other is more special and more important than sexual intercourse (and yes I am separating intimacy and sexual intercourse as they are 2 completely different things to me).
In answer to your question, it's quite difficult for me to answer that considering my view of what marriage is IS the same as a relationship (it IS a relationship after all, is it not ?).
But for me, if I am in a relationship with someone, I am essentially married to that person. That has always been my understanding. My parents think it's "extreme", and some of my mates think that too. But when I am committed to someone, I am committed to them and them alone. We share each other and each other alone. To me, that bond, that commitment, that long-term loyalty, graffitied over walls saying we are together or a simple text message saying "i love you my partner" or whatever it is, either way, the connection between 2 people who wish to be together for as long as they can foresee is all that matters to me. "Getting married" in the traditional sense is easy. Hey i could grab a random dude, sign a piece of paper in the registry office, have sex, find him boring, and "divorce" (God forbid I'd never do such a thing!). What is that compared to a love that goes deep into the souls of 2 people, where their hearts have signed a contract already to God, their words and souls are the oath - God as their witness, people as their witness.
I probably sound like some crazy romanticist and yes, i know the Quran is but a guide and we can only follow it as well as we can do and as best to our interpretation as possible. But really, this is how I see it and this is how I feel is right for me (other people of course is another story). That's why in places like the UK, it can be difficult for someone like me to find someone. Someone who has the same mentality. I can't even bring myself to kiss someone when I'm not "actually" seeing a future with them at all because I have too much self respect and I do not feel it is really right. One thing I have learnt over the years and with experience, is to not rush, to not rush into someones house or bedroom and leave yourself vulnerable or open to a bit of a situation, even if it is with someone you love. I believe it's best to take time with these things. Spiritually connect with them and grow to love them. I bang on about patience but someones it can be quite quick to really fall for someone, but I also believe that can sometimes depend on our mental state. Either way, someone who is in a long-term relationship or sees themselves being in a long-term relationship with this person, who shares their life in terms of what they do, buying dinner together, going places together, being in eachothers company, offering protection and comfort equally to eachother - that to me is a marriage.
I hope I answered as well as possible .
Peace,
Sushi -
Peace Taro Hiroshi,
Come on brother, I really expected you to be more careful in quoting and translating a verse from al-quran.
You say this
"A woman can not have sexual relations with other than her husband." Because verse 2431 suggests that a woman is only allowed to be naked in front of her husband (in regards to a relationship).
Then you say this
In verses 235-6 the Quran seems to suggest that the believers can only unguard/show their private parts in front of their mates and mma (those who are maintained by their oaths).
You are creating contradiction in al-quran. First you say according to 2431 a woman is allowed to be naked only in front of her husband (which the actual verse does not say), then you say according to 2431 a believer can show private parts to mate and MMA. I really didn't expect this carelessness from you which creates contradiction in al-quran.
2431 talks about zeenat and furooj, and 235-6 talks only about furooj. Zeenat is different from furooj; BOTH WERE USED IN 2431 with different meanings.
According to 2431 believing women are allowed to reveal their ZEENAT (NOT FUROOJ) to
Their husbands, their fathers, fathers of their husbands, their sons, sons of their husbands, their brothers, sons of their brothers, sons of their sisters, their women, their mma, their male servants who are without need, and a child who has not yet understood the composition of women.
IT DOES NOT SAY THEY CAN GET NAKED ONLY IN FRONT OF HUSBANDS
Firstly zeenat can be revealed not only to husband but to many categories of people per 2431.
Secondly, zeenat cannot be nakedness including private parts because a woman is allowed to reveal her zeenat to so many categories of people according to 2431. Do you mean to say that 2431 allows a woman to get naked in front of her father, son, brother, male servants without need? Are you serious?
2431 says just to guard/protect furooj. It does not explain from whom with what exceptions.
235-6 on the other hand gives the exceptions to guarding/protecting furooj and allows believers to unguard their FUROOJ/private parts in front of mates and MMA, and not only mates. The word used is hafithoon from the root Ha-Fa-Za which means to guard/protect/preserve etc. and NOT TO CONCEAL OR COVER.
HOW CAN SOMEONE GUARD/PROTECT HIS/HER PRIVATE PARTS? WHAT DOES GUARDING/PROTECTING PRIVATE PARTS FROM ANOTHER PERSON MEAN?
Do you guard your house by covering it with a cloth? Or do you guard your house by preventing someone from entering it? If you unguard/unprotect your house are you just allowing people to see it or are you allowing people to ENTER IT?
YOU STILL HAVEN'T QUOTED ANY VERSE FROM AL-QURAN THAT FORBIDS SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE WITH MMA.
Peace and best regards.
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2431 talks about zeenat and furooj, and 235-6 talks only about furooj. Zeenat is different from furooj; BOTH WERE USED IN 2431 with different meanings.
According to 2431 believing women are allowed to reveal their ZEENAT (NOT FUROOJ) to
Their husbands, their fathers, fathers of their husbands, their sons, sons of their husbands, their brothers, sons of their brothers, sons of their sisters, their women, their mma, their male servants who are without need, and a child who has not yet understood the composition of women.
IT DOES NOT SAY THEY CAN GET NAKED ONLY IN FRONT OF HUSBANDS
Firstly zeenat can be revealed not only to husband but to many categories of people per 2431.
Secondly, zeenat cannot be nakedness including private parts because a woman is allowed to reveal her zeenat to so many categories of people according to 2431. Do you mean to say that 2431 allows a woman to get naked in front of her father, son, brother, male servants without need? Are you serious?
2431 says just to guard/protect furooj. It does not explain from whom with what exceptions.
235-6 on the other hand gives the exceptions to guarding/protecting furooj and allows believers to unguard their FUROOJ/private parts in front of mates and MMA, and not only mates. The word used is hafithoon from the root Ha-Fa-Za which means to guard/protect/preserve etc. and NOT TO CONCEAL OR COVER.
HOW CAN SOMEONE GUARD/PROTECT HIS/HER PRIVATE PARTS? WHAT DOES GUARDING/PROTECTING PRIVATE PARTS FROM ANOTHER PERSON MEAN?
Do you guard your house by covering it with a cloth? Or do you guard your house by preventing someone from entering it? If you unguard/unprotect your house are you just allowing people to see it or are you allowing people to ENTER IT?
YOU STILL HAVEN'T QUOTED ANY VERSE FROM AL-QURAN THAT FORBIDS SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE WITH MMA.
Red I think I never found such verse on the Qur'an, to be honest.
However, since this MMA issue is still not 100% clear for me, I think I prefer to uphold the part which I could understand clearly, this part
"The believers - guard their private parts - except around their mates"
Peace.
