Dr. Jonathan Brown discusses Quran-alone Muslims
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Peace NielsJacob,
So what kind of ritual should it then be?
What about the bowing (2.43), prostating (53.62), direction(2.144), washing(5.6), thanksgiving (31.14), timing(4.103), and the posibility for making it together (2.43)
I can only see it as prayer. Or what do you call it. An other ritual preformed 3 - 5 times a day?There is no direction in salat. 2144 has no SALAT in its context for miles. It has nothing to do with salat but is a mental focal point/target/purpose for believers wherever they might be (the truth from our lord).
243 is not about bowing during salat. There is zakat also mentioned in between ruku and salat. So do you PHYSICALLY BOW DURING ZAKAT ALSO? All it means is be humble with those who are humble. One can be humble during salat and zakat and at all times.
There is no verse that indicates ruku is only part of salat.
If I tell you
Eat healthy and exercise and focus with those who focus.
Would that mean that focus is something physical you do (like focusing your vision) while eating and exercising or would it mean a mental focus at all times?
5362 has no SALAT in context. It is talking about being obedient to allah. The only place where SUJUD seems to be directly part of salat is 4102.
243 is also not about possibility of making salat together. 629 and 4102 are about the group salat.
4103 has nothing to do with timing of salat. The salat timing verses are 11114 and 1778.
3114 is not about thanksgiving during salat. It is about thanksgiving in general. Please see 17111 which is relevant to what we are supposed to say during salat.
For prayer al-quran uses the word "du3a" and not salat. Salat can include prayer but it is much more than just prayer. It is "communion" or "intimate communication/connection" with allah.
"Ritual" is a bad word for it. More appropriate words would be "routine" or "practice".
Eating 3 times a day, or exercising once a day, are they "rituals", or are they "routines" or "practices"?
Peace
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Peace Taro Hiroshi
Peace Niels Jacob,
I think you raise some good points.
In my view, before one can understand what Salat is, one has to understand what Salat is not. If ones beliefs about Salat are based on evidence/proof/facts, then ones beliefs are true IMO. But if ones beliefs about Salat are not based on evidence/proof/facts, then ones beliefs seem to be baseless. And then I think it would be reasonable to reevaluate ones beliefs. In my view, the best way to find the truth about Salat is by using a logical/rational approach to Salat.
I am planning to write a post about Salat in the future. The post will tackle the objections you raised and some other objections as well. I will write the post about Salat in due time.
Inshallah
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Peace Thuthseeker 11
I just picked one random refrence to each claim. But you also know that there are a lot more to each one.
Showing that these things are througout the entire Quran.
My point was What else than prayer should cover all these elements. wich in my view all together make the prayers
.Or said in an other way How can you do all these things without making prayers.
Prayers is the easiest way to follow these instructions. ) -
Peace NielsJacob,
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If you reference verses about salat they should be about salat and not totally irrelevant to salat and then associate them with salat!
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The word used for "prayer" in al-quran is "du3a" not "salat". It makes no sense to use "du3a" for prayer and then to use salat also for prayer.
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You have to look at all the salat of the believers verses, and "prayer" has to make sense in every single verse.
How does prayer ORDER YOU how to perform some actions in your life?
1187 They said "O Shu'ayb, does your salat order you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? It seems only you are the compassionate, the wise!"
- Salat includes praising, glorifying and magnifying the lord, not just request for help or thanksgiving. Prayer is not praising, glorifying and magnifying the lord. Praying is asking for something you or someone else don't have, or solution to a problem you or someone else are having, or solemnly requesting for help etc.
Salat is not just prayer but much more than just prayer. "Prayer" doesn't fit all occurrences of salat. How do you explain "prayer" ORDERING YOU to do some action? Huh? (1187)
Peace
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Peace Truthseeker 11
Then see prayer in a more greater perspectiv. And not just reduced to asking for something. Then salat would be that "prayer"
I think that if you see it in that view also you could read 11.87 as when you are doing your prayer (salat) then you aint violating Gods command.
Wish is my major allegation -
Peace NielsJacob,
But the prayer still does not ORDER YOU to do something. It's just that you are not violating commandments. Prayer never ORDERS YOU to do something.
You are acknowledging that salat is more than just prayer but still calling it "prayer" for which al-quran uses the word "du3a". So you are disregarding the word "du3a" for prayer.
Salat = prayer + something more
Peace
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Peace truthseeker11
Peace NielsJacob,
But the prayer still does not ORDER YOU to do something. It's just that you are not violating commandments. Prayer never ORDERS YOU to do something.
You are acknowledging that salat is more than just prayer but still calling it "prayer" for which al-quran uses the word "du3a". So you are disregarding the word "du3a" for prayer.
Salat = prayer + something more
Peace
Yes I agree with you. But the reason I call it prayer is because I cant find any better word.
And then again I find it wrong to say that Salat isn?t prayer.
Would it be better to call it your timed contact prayer ritual?
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Peace truthseekers,
You are nitpicking on a semantic issue. The word "prayer" in the English language isn't reserved solely for asking something from God. It encompasses also glorification, praising, giving thanks, etc. And in fact, prayer is more fitting to what you are describing than any other English word, and du3aa2 is 'supplication' in English.
And as to whether your salah orders you to do something, again you are taking this too literally. Does someone's communion order them to do something? Does a 'contact routine' order you to do something? Does your 'communion routine practice' or 'habit' order you to do something?
No, they do not. The verse is simply saying 'does what you pray to / your belief system call for this or that behaviour'.
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Dr. Jonathan Brown from Georgetown University discusses the Quran-alone movement here
https//youtu.be/kUDHzdiYgws?t=17m13s
He makes the standard argument that "the Quran cannot be read on its own. Because otherwise you wouldn't know how to pray 5 times a day."
He also claims that there was no Quran-alone movement in pre-modern Islam.
While I think he makes a logical contradiction here by claiming that you need the Prophet's teachings to follow the Quran, this forum is actually a good example about the fact that we cannot get any significant number of people to agree on how to pray according to the Quran alone.
had my ins and out with this guys saying the quran can not be read alone... can the dictionary be read alone? ALLAH will judge them for the blasphemies they utter, the quran tells you to pray five times a day????? it doesn't say pray it says rememberance, this includes just sitting and thinking about ALLAH (god) and the meditation of believing ones like monks who meditate... as this jack-off what is "rememberance" and how is that different from prayer??? ask him what is "celebrating" and how is that different from praying.....
praying is begging, asking i.e. "i pray you give me ...."
stay away from this people they are blasphemers and their crime is against ALLAH, the quran is the word of ALLAH!
He's already placed it in a book he does not need you to speak for him.
these are people who reject faith.
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Peace ths,
I think that we agree on more than we disagree on in regards to Salat and other quranic topics. Just like you, I am not in favor of rejecting tradition, just because it is tradition. But I don't consider myself a traditionist. I don't consider myself a modernist neither. To me, the truth is the aim/objective. As a truthseeker, I will accept any teaching that is not incompatible with the teachings of the Quran. That being said, I don't think that the God expects us to follow non-quranic or extra-quranic teachings in regards to laws/commandments, principles and rituals in islam. In my view, the only laws/commandments, principles and rituals we must follow are those that are in the Quran.
I have learned new things about the teachings of the Quran by reading your posts.
Your objective/critical/detailed approach to the Quran is needed here.
Keep up the good work.
Peace and best regards,
Taro.
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Peace all
It more like we a discussing the meaning of the word salat in an english term or word.
So what about calling it worship.I havnt seen anybody come up with some ohter ritual that should cover all the things we find in this worship/contact prayer ritual. And wish is requried in the Quran.
I thought about 11.87. Couldn?t it give meaning to translate the verse Does you worship lead you to give up what you fathers used to worship.
I think sometimes it all come up to a understanding of the meaning. And not just think how the translation sounds.
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Peace ths, all,
I think truthseeker11 is correct. Prayer does not seem to mean Salat. Prayer seem to mean Dua.
(English transliteration)
Quran 338 Hunalika daAAa zakariyyarabbahu qala rabbi hab lee min ladunka thurriyyatantayyibatan innaka sameeAAu aldduAAa/-iQuran 338 It was then that Zechariah called on his Lord, he said, "My Lord, grant me from You a good progeny; You are hearer of the prayers."
In verse 338, the Quran suggests that the word Al-duai means the prayers. Because Zechariah asks the the God to give him a child. Therefore the word Al-Duai (plural) seems to mean "the prayers" in the above-mentioned verse. Hence the word dua (singular) seems to mean prayer, not Salat. But if Dua means prayer, what does the word Salat mean? Does the word Salat mean bond or learning connection? Please ponder on these questions.
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Peace taro,
sup?pli?ca?tion
splkSH(ən/
nounthe action of asking or begging for something earnestly or humbly.
"he fell to his knees in supplication"Prayer and supplication are often used interchangeably by translators. Many of them translate both salah and du3aa2 as 'prayer'.
The point is that we are all arguing semantics when the english word 'prayer' is absolutely fine. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel.
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Peace ths,
Thank you for your post.
Prayer and supplication are often used interchangeably by translators. Many of them translate both salah and du3aa2 as 'prayer'.
The point is that we are all arguing semantics when the english word 'prayer' is absolutely fine. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel.
I see/understand. I have no problem with the word Salat being translated as prayer. But the most important questions still remains, in my opionion. And those questions are the following How should we do/perform Salat according to the Quran alone? Is the Quranic Salat similar to the Sunni/Shia Salat? Or is the Quranic Salat completely different than the Sunni/Shia Salat? How many times a day should we do/perform Salat according to the Quran alone?
I don't have all the answers. Actually, I think/feel that I know very little in regards to true islam. I am just a student of the Quran. And I think/feel I have a long way to go in regards to understanding what the Quranic Salat is and is not. I believe that we can all learn from eachother. So let us try to find the truth in regards to Salat. Let us try to get to the bottom of this issue.
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And those questions are the following How do one do/perform Salah according to the Quran alone? Is the Quranic Salat similar to the Sunni/Shia Salat? Or is the Quranic Salat completely different than the Sunni/Shia Salat?
Well my own opinion is that people here 'cannot see the forest for the trees', as the saying goes. Ie they delve so much into the deepest meanings of words that they end up with the vaguest common denominator of meaning. This is the case with sujud and salah, where people do not accept that the Quran uses them metaphorically in places and not literally. Hence the discussion about whether your salah literally orders you to do something.
I think that we are asked to perform ablutions prior to salah, we are asked to stand, read the Quran, ponder the Quran, ponder God, give thanks, glorify God, bow, and prostrate in deep humility. We are asked to do so at sunrise, at sunset, and an additional offering at night if we feel up to it. That is my current understanding.
Regarding the Sunni/Shia prayer, I think that they are very close to the prayer described in the Quran. I don't believe that there is a fixed formula to prayer that everyone has to perform exactly the same. Instead I think that the sunni prayer has been taken from what Muhammad did, how he chose to pray. And with time the things that were said in prayer changed, and some details of the prayer were added to (probably the greetings at the end for example).
Anyway all of this I think is less important than simply doing something. As agphys pointed out earlier, we should not mock or stop those who pray differently than us as long as they do it at sunrise and sunset and are doing it sincerely.
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Dr. Jonathan Brown from Georgetown University discusses the Quran-alone movement here
https//youtu.be/kUDHzdiYgws?t=17m13s
He makes the standard argument that "the Quran cannot be read on its own. Because otherwise you wouldn't know how to pray 5 times a day."
He also claims that there was no Quran-alone movement in pre-modern Islam.
While I think he makes a logical contradiction here by claiming that you need the Prophet's teachings to follow the Quran, this forum is actually a good example about the fact that we cannot get any significant number of people to agree on how to pray according to the Quran alone.
Peace ths,
Dr. Jonathan Brown should list detailed and consistent instructions "how to pray" according to hadith?
If he claims there was no Quran-alone movement in pre-modern Islam then why hadith such as below?
Book 40, Number 4587
Narrated Al-Miqdam ibn Ma'dikaribThe Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said Beware! I have been given the Qur'an and something like it, yet the time is coming when a man replete on his couch will say Keep to the Qur'an; what you find in it to be permissible treat as permissible, and what you find in it to be prohibited treat as prohibited...
469 say not be I innovation of from the messengers and not know I what does/happens with me and not with you surely I follow only what inspired to me and not surely I except warner clear
