Is it zina?
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Peace Taro & All,
I'll repeat what I said previously. I do not agree with people referring to their other half as "boyfriend" or "girlfriend". Ever since I was young I really didn't like that connotation. If i ever was to have a man, which I have done, they will be my partner. In my head I might refer to them as my husband. Only reason I wouldn't say husband to everyone else is because others might not understand how I think. My parents for one would probably lose the plot if they knew I for example fell in love with someone after a month and he was my "husband" - hence why I say partner.
But anyway, aside from that, I'm seeing a lot of "illicit sex" and "secret lover" references getting thrown about. I'm sorry but, if 2 people are in love and happy being together, who in the right mind would want to keep them a secret? As much as i don't like "bf" and "gf" references, bear in mind these are ONLY LABELS! These labels or words have no weight on them unless we evaluate the actions of someone. Do you call someone "muslim" if they kill people and bomb places and kill christians? Does that name "muslim" actually have any weight on them? No... it doesn't.
I severely have an issue with what defines marriage. What difference does it make if i referred to my lover as a partner or a husband? What about people who are pissed out of their heads, barely know each other, go to Las Vegas, get "married" in the presence of a priest after 5 minutes, and have sex. Is that marriage? Sorry, to me that is NOT marriage. And what exactly is a "marriage contract" anyway? "Document it". How so? How should it be documented? What constitutes documentation? A text between one another? A declaration of your love to the whole of the social network via Facebook? I know one day i'll probably HAVE to sign the register in the UK to declare myself as "married", but I really don't put alot of weight into that "requirement" to be "married". One and only "one" benefit I can see is when it comes to financial dealings - sharing property or assets that are owned by the couple. If "shit hits the fan" (lets be blunt), and the guy wanted to be a right arsehole, he could say right, thanks for the awesome relationship but i don't want to be with you anymore. Yes, it's heartbreak, yes it's painful. BUT, if you were a "married" couple (using my personal definition of marriage) and you DIDN'T own a house or have any shared ownership of anything financially, how is that different to the normal male/female couples you see out there?
People don't get into a relationship to have sex. People get into a relationship because they love each other. They feel they can be with this person for as long as possible. They might have their own idea of marriage in the sense that a marriage is between the man, the woman and God. A marriage is NOT kept secret. You declare each others love and a set of parents know about it. The person(s)'s friends know about it. They know you are taken and he is taken. The relationship status is "documented" in digital formats, not necessarily going to a registry office and signing your name on some piece of paper just because the "law" would deem you married. What about people who used to write on a piece of paper back in the 18ths that said "i am forever yours and you are forever mine. My life partner". What is a life partner? Is a life partner not a wife/husband? Which is more a marriage? An arranged marriage between 2 people who don't know eachother and do not LOVE eachother, yet they are just present in front of some imam and said "yeah we are married" with their parents around. OR, is a marriage when 2 people LOVE eachother, there are many witnesses/people/parents who know/acknowledge that these 2 people are TOGETHER for as long as they hopefully can be, and that it can be found "documented" in multiple places.
I think care needs to be taken into "how" a "marriage" can be documented, because I see multiple ways. Strip out the pagan crap, strip out giving a ring, having a white dress, saying vows and singing with the choir. Take that all out and what are you left with. There should NEVER be any secrecy in love UNLESS you fear for your life/well-being (parents might hate you/want to kill you/tear you apart), but even then, there will be other people in the world who will know your relationship status. If someone asks me why I didn't go to the registry office each time (i've had 3 partners in my 23 years of my life) I committed myself to a man, it would SIMPLY be because of how my parents and perhaps other people in society (who believe in just normal boyfriend/girlfriend crap) would perceive it. Also, perhaps the man might also not think that signing the registry is a declaration of marriage and maybe they had the same mentality as me. Maybe the important thing to both the man and female was that others knew what they were... and most importantly, God knew what they were and what was in their hearts.
As Huruf mentioned earlier and as I have mentioned above, the "marriage contract" in the sense of, for example, the UK where you sign a book, would be beneficial, is that the man can't screw you over with financial assets you share.
Let's not be a little close minded and not see how these things can be interpreted differently. A relationship or a marriage is not about sex or intimacy. It can be a part of it. It's not necessary either! But it is a small part of it, but not at all the most important.
Sorry if i side-tracked...
Peace,
SushiI agree with what you said above, i think like you since i was a kid, i was always wondering how an imam or a priest can grant a permission from God to bestow a married label to the couple or a dowry(money is used in my country) to determine that the couple is married or not(Pretty shirk come to think of it), Glad i'm not the only one, thought i was bat-sh*t crazy when i started to think like this. Never really see difference either.
Both marriage by dowry or a marriage committed by oath(couple/ love partner relationships) is pretty much the same, both has it's ups and down and in both marriage one of the couple can betray one another, and both probably won't last long either if God willing.
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Peace truthseeker11,
By saying that I have been deceived, you are partly focusing on me. But you should not be focusing on me at all. You should ONLY address the content of my arguments. I don't like being called deceived. To me, such behaviour is unacceptable. Never mistake my kindness for weakness.
Please ponder on this You would not like others to call you deceived. Thus, you should not call others deceived. I advice you to treat others how you would want them to treat you. There is a quote which goes like this
"Do not do to others what you would not like yourself."
Please ponder on this If you disrespect someone, you can not expect him/her to respect you. Because respect is a two-way street. Let me repeat this one more time "Respect is a two-way street."
Also, see this article
http//www.free-minds.org/islamic-etiquette
If you respect me, then I will respect you. That's my rule. And for me, that rule is set in stone.
I like your posts in this forum. I also like your rational and evidence-based approach to islam. Also, I have learned important things about the teachings of the Quran from you. I appreciate your efforts for the true islam. Try to understand, that I see you as a brother. But I can only discuss/debate with you if you adress the content of my arguments. I can not discuss with someone if he/she focus on a person (i.e. Ad hominem) instead of adressing the arguments of that person. That's my policy.
I expect you to only adress the content of my arguments from now on.
I might answer your post in due time.
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Peace Taro Hiroshi,
I never disrespected you. I never said you made a wrong translation. I was very careful to say what I said. I never said that you have deceived.
You quoted a translation by someone else. I was calling that translator a deceiver and not that you are deceiving, and I was trying to give you sincere advice to be careful.
If someone is robbed and I say he has been robbed, am I disrespecting him? Then if I give him sincere advice how to take necessary precautions next time, is that disrespecting him?
You are the one ad homining me by falsely accusing me of disrespecting you. If you ad hominem me again like this, I am sorry I won't be able to participate in a discussion with you. I have always respected you.
I am not going to make any more posts in this thread. You have really disrespected me by falsely accusing me of having disrespected you, and I am very upset about that.
I was up until 2 am last night spending hours writing that post, just for you, and this is how I am treated for making a sincere effort. I had to get up early today and didn't get enough sleep. I didn't have to go out of my way like that.
Actually I am done with this forum for now and I am going to take a break for a while.
Keep up the good work and may ALLAH bless you for your efforts.
Peace and best regards.
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I am not going to make any more posts in this thread. You have really disrespected me by falsely accusing me of having disrespected you, and I am very upset about that.
I was up until 2 am last night spending hours writing that post, just for you, and this is how I am treated for making a sincere effort. I had to get up early today and didn't get enough sleep. I didn't have to go out of my way like that.
Actually I am done with this forum for now and I am going to take a break for a while.
No, please don't leave, truthseeker11! (
Perhaps there's misunderstanding between you and Hiroshi, I hope we can fix this.
I think you both should be good friends - I truly hope so. Please don't lose a good relationship just because of this issue.
Peace.
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Peace truthseeker11,
You told me that I have been deceived 4 times (in your post). And that is why I reacted the way I reacted. Perhaps your intention was good. If that is the case, then I misunderstood your intention. I guess I overreacted. I just wanted to tell you that I don't like being called deceived. That's all. But perhaps I should have told you through a PM instead. I am an imperfect human being. And I often make mistakes. I did not mean to make you upset my friend. No hard feelings.
I never directly said that you disrespected me. Nowhere in my post did I say the following "You have disrespected me." Therefore I don't think that I have disrespected you. I appreciated your post and appreciated the advice you gave me about taking necessary precautions the next time. I thought your post was a good post. And I will answer your post in due time (in the future). You have written a lot of good posts in this forum. Believe me. And apart from telling me that I have been "deceived" (in your post), I liked your post. As mentioned earlier, I don't think that I have disrespected you. Actually, I respect you a lot man. Someone who does not respect you, would probably resort to name calling and insults. Right? But I did not do that. And I never do that. Because I don't like to hurt anyone or say/do something that is not right. I believe in being kind. And the Quran has taught me to be kind and say kind things to the people.
Quran 4114 There is no good in most of what they privately confer, except whoever orders a charity or kindness or reconciliation between the people. And whoever does this seeking the grace of God, We will give him a great recompense.
Quran 283 And We took the covenant of the Children of Israel "You shall not serve except God, and do good to your parents, and regard the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and say kind things to the people, and hold the contact prayer, and contribute towards purification." But then you turned away, except for a few of you; you were objecting.
I think that taking a break from a forum from time to time, is a good idea. Because I think that it can enable a person to learn more, grow more and give more. Also, I think that that it can enable a person to focus more on his/her work and career.
I wish you the best in your journey. And I hope that we can still be brothers )
I look forward to read your posts in this forum in the future.
Take care trutseeker11.
May the God bless you.
Much respect,
Taro.
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I think that taking a break from a forum from time to time, is a good idea. Because it can enable a person to learn more, grow more and give more. Also, I think it can enable a person to focus more on his/her work and career.
Hmm yea... that might be right... http//emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/onion-head/sigh-onion-head-emoticon.gif?1292862519
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Truthseeker just take a few days out or something. Sometimes I leave this place for a month and then come back to it to see if people have responded or anything interesting has come up in conversation or if I need to start battling people P with kindness of course. But like Taro, I've had my mind opened quite alot in regards to certain aspects of the Quran by yourself, wakas, and especially by Ayman (who I seriously miss on this forum....).
Anyway, I hope you don't leave for too long mate... But your post was awesome and I totally agree/respect it and I'm sure you meant no harm if you did tell Taro he is a deceiver which he is not (he might just need to not get so excited sometimes P).
Peace peace
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Peace Taro Hiroshi,
I never disrespected you. I never said you made a wrong translation. I was very careful to say what I said. I never said that you have deceived.
You quoted a translation by someone else. I was calling that translator a deceiver and not that you are deceiving, and I was trying to give you sincere advice to be careful.
If someone is robbed and I say he has been robbed, am I disrespecting him? Then if I give him sincere advice how to take necessary precautions next time, is that disrespecting him?
You are the one ad homining me by falsely accusing me of disrespecting you. If you ad hominem me again like this, I am sorry I won't be able to participate in a discussion with you. I have always respected you.
I am not going to make any more posts in this thread. You have really disrespected me by falsely accusing me of having disrespected you, and I am very upset about that.
I was up until 2 am last night spending hours writing that post, just for you, and this is how I am treated for making a sincere effort. I had to get up early today and didn't get enough sleep. I didn't have to go out of my way like that.
Actually I am done with this forum for now and I am going to take a break for a while.
Keep up the good work and may ALLAH bless you for your efforts.
Peace and best regards.
No need to get upset over a fight on the internet, because....well...it's the internet...pretty pointless fighting over an opinion if you guys can't meet face to face...calm down, maybe a break will do it for ya
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peace t11,
The main issue with the other thread you referred to was the lack of research/thought put into the alternative position. For example throughout the thread issues were raised that were seemingly not thought of by the author, which was one of the reasons for the lengthy discussion that followed. It was quite a lazy approach in my view.
For those who wish to read it, from here is a reasonable start
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599777.msg304165#msg304165 -
So sexual activity in a Boyfriend-girlfriend relationship is okay???
your funny guy, you start with specific context, then apply a response to that specific context on a situation that has nothing to do with that context
show me how a boy friend and a girl friend in a city are like a man and a woman stuck on an island
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I was wondering if 1 female and 1 male got stuck on an island together with no hope of getting back to the city and they want to re-populate the island does it count that both of them are committing zina?They're both not legally married. Does loving each other counts as religiously married according to the quran?
It's not a joke it's a serious question
besides if you were stuck on an island wouldnt u have something else to worry about than have sex with the female next to you, like gathering food and building a shelter
just wondering your context is not clearly defined
Well i don't really see the difference between marriage and Regular relationship both financially provide for each other, usually couples meet each other's parents, and both swore an oath that they won't hook up with another person
Legal marriages sometimes from what i see are just the exact same thing, sometimes lasts pretty shortly rather than most Girlfriend/boyfriend relationships do
I don't think these types of couples deserves 100 lashes since they love each other and both of them mostly fulfill the quran's circumstances for marriageyou know why marriage exist? so that society knows you and the woman your interested in are getting together
you cant be individualistic with the quran because it's about community building on top of personal betterment
you dont see the difference but you dont understand that we live together in a society because your probably individualistic to the core
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They could do nikah...except what about witnesses? Isn't nikah invalid without witnesses?
I don't know what the Quran says about this. | -
besides if you were stuck on an island wouldnt u have something else to worry about than have sex with the female next to you, like gathering food and building a shelter
just wondering your context is not clearly defined
you know why marriage exist? so that society knows you and the woman your interested in are getting together
you cant be individualistic with the quran because it's about community building on top of personal betterment
you dont see the difference but you dont understand that we live together in a society because your probably individualistic to the core
So you're calling me individualistic to the core because i have a different point of view on what a marriage is than you or society...very tolerant of you
The couple on the island are similar to gf/bf relationship so yeah it's still in context
Btw If your eye is still functioning well i wrote that the couple on the island wants to re-populateI was wondering if 1 female and 1 male got stuck on an island together with no hope of getting back to the city and they want to re-populate the island does it count that both of them are committing zina?They're both not legally married. Does loving each other counts as religiously married according to the quran?
It's not a joke it's a serious question
Btw if you can scroll to the top of the website's page you'll notice that there's a tiny banner named "Free-Minds", and that is the website's name, and the word "Free" means that i can share or ask a question or have discussion on any topic i want, i'm an open-minded person and free to take any opinion or any person's thought(even you) no need to judge me as "individualistic to the core" just because i have a different interpretation of the quran than you.
A GF/BF or fiance are just labels in my point of view, and tell me what's the difference between a couple relationship and today's marriage? what does it require to be labelled as married, huh? papers? and imam or priest that requests a permission from God that these couple are married? tell me on what is your definition of marriage?
Here's a link of my answer to you
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376837#msg376837
Please do check it out, i'm very interested to have a friendly discussion with you, if you can -
They could do nikah...except what about witnesses? Isn't nikah invalid without witnesses?
I don't know what the Quran says about this. |Could you provide quranic evidence along with your post?
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Peace truthseeker11,
YOU STILL HAVEN'T QUOTED ANY VERSE FROM AL-QURAN THAT FORBIDS SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE WITH MMA.
You are right when you say that I haven't quoted any verse from Al-Quran that forbids sex outside marriage. But what about you? Can you prove that sex outside of marriage with MMA is permitted?
FACT
YOU HAVEN'T QUOTED ANY VERSE FROM AL-QURAN THAT PERMITS SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE WITH MMA.
In my view, sex is only permitted in a marriage, not outside of marriage.
See this article
Women and men in your care; ma malakat Aymanukum
http//submission.org/Women_Men_in_your_Care.html
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Peace everyone,
The Quran suggests that if one is a believer, one must lower ones gaze when looking at the opposite sex (see verses 2430-31). So if even looking at the opposite sex in a non-platonic/immodest way, is considered as wrong according to the quran, then how can a romantic relationship (with sexual relations), outside of marriage, be permitted by the Quran? The above-mentioned question has made me think that a lot of what the western society and liberal culture has taught us about relationships, is incompatible with the teachings of Al-Quran. I think that there is a purpose/wisdom behind every commandment in Al-Quran. Perhaps the God has given people (men and women) the commandments (in the above-mentioned verses) because the God wants men and women to create a strong mental/spiritual bond with their partner before they choose to commit (get married). And in my view, it is only possible to create a strong mental/spiritual bond with the opposite sex if one mainly focus on the mental/spiritual aspects of a relationship.
I would like to share a link to a very interesting and challenging post here.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599777.msg300275#msg300275
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The reason you take any measures is because you seek not to activate the instinctive drive, that is why you seek to be chaste. It is not really about rules but about recommendations. Following desires and lusts will lead to assimilation with your Body and that your Spirit shrinks in your Soul and hence your abd/connection/attachment to your Rabb.
Marriage is a human invention but consummation of bonding occurs with copulation. You can simply say your are married, have sex and then you are bonded together and cannot separate from each other.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Peace Man of faith,
Following desires and lusts will lead to assimilation with your Body and that your Spirit shrinks in your Soul and hence your abd/connection/attachment to your Rabb.
That seems to be correct.
You can simply say your are married, have sex and then you are bonded together and cannot separate from each other.
Are you sure? Doesn't the Quran suggests that marriage consists of giving a dowry?
See this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg373915#msg373915
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Are you sure? Doesn't the Quran suggests that marriage consists of giving a dowry?
Dowry is part of the family establishment and a buffer sum for the wife in case of the husband's demise or disability to work. That is the reason why a dowry is not to be taken back if the man decides to leave the woman after they have had sex. It is a custom, but I think it is a good custom. It was more relevant prior to the Social Security systems of the modern day though, but it may still be customary that the man generates a buffer sum of money for the family before they procreate the first child.
According to God it is not allowed to leave the wife after you have had sex but that is binding and going against that is detrimental for the Spirit of your Soul. Jesus/Jesua went as far as to say that any woman who is left by her husband commits adultery bringing Spiritual decay upon them both. That has to do with the serious bonding that occurred with your bondmate. He also said that looking upon another woman with desire is detrimental, because it activates the primitive instinct of the Flesh, aka satan. There may obviously be exceptions such as domestic abuse where the link is severed anyhow, but in that case the detrimental effect on the Spirit is also severe for the abuser.
In Semitic tradition, if you have sex with an unmarried woman then you are forced to marry her, albeit "marriage" is the same as the bonding between you. Marriage contracts and rituals is a human invention, even if God recommends that you make your marriage official including witnesses for the feeling of security for both parts and also to increase the feeling that it is serious business and a solemn oath.
In the end, everything has to do with how much one guards themselves against the instinct (satan) from expressing itself. We must guard us from ourselves, our weak Body that is easily tempted by its instinct being an advanced primate yet animal enough. God made it that way, as a contradiction in this World and deluded us so that we are tested to see if we are potent enough to see through and find the right path and discover we consist of two parts; Spirit and Body, and together they form the person, the Nafs in Arabic, but we must learn the Body is not the real you but it is in the Spirit and the Body is clearly a distraction for us and it contains satan (the instinct). Satan is our most ardent enemy, and Satan is (in) our own Body, that call to do things like a Beast, an animal. We need to master our Body like you would put a dog in place and show who is its Master rather than letting the Body run loose. It is about discipline, making the Spirit take precedence.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Peace Man of faith,
That seems to be correct.
Are you sure? Doesn't the Quran suggests that marriage consists of giving a dowry?
See this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg373915#msg373915
You know a couple that are committed by oath is married according to the quran, right? Dowry doesn't necessarily determine whether that person is married or not, right?
O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,...btw i've replied to you on this post about how the quran evolves during time, but you seem to ignore me for some reason
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376830#msg376830And do check my reply to Wakas on this matter
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376837#msg376837But if you're too lazy to check it out i'll just post it here(my debate with wakas)
My debate with wakas
O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,...
I have provided a verse which states there is a way to marry without dowry and that is by oath
Ask yourself wakas before you label me as insincere, you seemed to disagree also that this verse is saying there other ways to marry without dowry,are you being insincere also, and nothing in the quran that says we need an imam or a fancy seremony to be marriedand a gf/bf relationship seems to fit right in your conditions before marriage below
Determining mutual attraction/compatibility CHECK
Ascertaining whether the potential partner is of similar beliefs/faith CHECK
Discussion of and agreeing to the level of dower and other terms (if any) (GF/BF relationship is a dowerless marriage and falls into the category of verse 3350)CHECK(They do a solemn oath)
Understanding and mutual acceptance of marriage as a solemn/strong oath/contract CHECK(They do a solemn oath)
If male, capable of providing for the family/household CHECK(The male usually provides more but sometimes each other if they're staying in the same house)
To have physically matured / post-puberty CHECK(In reality gf/bf relationships occurs in puberty they recognize love and intimacy after puberty)O you who have believed, avoid much assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.
Before you label me as insincere ask yourself why you disagree with the verse that says marriage with commitment by oath is possible is yourself being insincere also??A gf/bf relationship seems to check out above and the verse 3350 and, and @Wakas i didn't come here to have an emotional debate or judge or label people from what they think or write, i'm only here to have a healthy discussion
And do read my reply to TaroHiroshi on why the quran was meant to evolve from time to time
I'm interested to hear from you or your response @Wakas
Peace
My debate with you (TaroHiroshi)
Okay Peace Taro, you know the quran doesn't tell us to have a big ceremony or anything or somekind of witness,right? and in god explains there's another way of marriage without dowry and that is commitment by oath, and i didn't dismiss wakas or your suggestions on some quranic verse i've read them all before i even started the thread!
The quran said there are wives that are lawful by dowry and oath, dowry seems to be another way to get married with your money and by a certain oath committed(without dowry) you can fall into the same category as married too
And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?
Plus a marriage should not be determined with papers, and marriage issues should be solved by the couple without lawyers or a law involved to reduce hardships in a certain divorce
And once again i did not reject the quranic verse that you and @wakas brought me, but i'm trying to say that the quran provides a way for a couple to be categorized as married without dowry and that is by oath which a couple does before entering in a relationship.
Please hold your suspicion how i follow my greedy desire and @Wakas suspicions about how i ignore the quran and how insencere i am, i'm only here to have a healthy non-emotional discussion
O you who have believed, avoid much assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.
The reason i believe a gf/bf relationship is that i believe that the quran was supposed to evolve as time passes by and i believe that god uses flexible words to allow time and place to fit that person's situation.like in;
2431 "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary."
god didn't told us what is necessary is but at some part of a certain country you need to be a little revealing if you want to fit in as time goes by this verse evolve, like wearing a hijab in the us, bad idea
and in O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
as time evolve
al-khamr(intoxicants) can mean drugs or any pharmaceutical ones that humans develop that can be a tool by the devil not just liquors
Al-Maisir(gamblin/games of chance) as time evolve it can be understood that it's just not gambling but any kind of game that involve luck and chance, for instance i got so hooked up in csgo that i forgot to salat, and in 591 al khamr and al-maisir are used to prevent believers from remebering god and contact prayer in todays world video games seems to be in the same cateogry as liquors because players have forgotten about salat after getting so
Al-Ansab(shrines) can mean any kind of place of worship not just altars but any kinds of place that involve a certain religious practice which by today used to manipulate their believers into doing evil things like spreading anti-semitism and such which probably all of us can relate
"Al-Azlam"(arrows of chance)in today's society, if they're in a tight situation they flip a coin to determined what they'll do next or any kind of decision making that uses luck even without arrows.
Now this is the reason why the quran was supposed to evolve, after i realized this my beliefs got stronger on how the quran was briliantly written and how god was such an amazing artist! But if these tools of devils can evolve after a lifetime then so can the definition of what marriage is, this is the reason why i believe a bf/gf= husband/wife according to the quran.
And i've realized also that to prevent diseases like AIDS to spread we cannot teach our kids that sex with your gf is sin or forbidden or go to hell because they'll just forget from time to time, but what we need is to teach them about loyalty, whether it's in a gf/bf relationship or legal marriage it's the loyalty, trust, and compassion that needs to be taught to to a kid, and with this technique when they're a fully grown mature adult they've already learned to respect the partner that has given her whole body and soul to and i guarantee STD's and any other disease will dicrease every year as long as we see pass out of our traditional views on what marriage is.
And i think that's about it, that's my reason on how the quran evolves after a centuries and so as the definition of marriage from time to time
Btw nice Keizer soze quote! love kevin spacey! and the movie(watched it 2 times and loved every bryan singers movie)
I'm interested on your thoughts on both of my reply to you and wakas because i too wrote it in an awful long time
