Is it zina?
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Are you sure? Doesn't the Quran suggests that marriage consists of giving a dowry?
Dowry is part of the family establishment and a buffer sum for the wife in case of the husband's demise or disability to work. That is the reason why a dowry is not to be taken back if the man decides to leave the woman after they have had sex. It is a custom, but I think it is a good custom. It was more relevant prior to the Social Security systems of the modern day though, but it may still be customary that the man generates a buffer sum of money for the family before they procreate the first child.
According to God it is not allowed to leave the wife after you have had sex but that is binding and going against that is detrimental for the Spirit of your Soul. Jesus/Jesua went as far as to say that any woman who is left by her husband commits adultery bringing Spiritual decay upon them both. That has to do with the serious bonding that occurred with your bondmate. He also said that looking upon another woman with desire is detrimental, because it activates the primitive instinct of the Flesh, aka satan. There may obviously be exceptions such as domestic abuse where the link is severed anyhow, but in that case the detrimental effect on the Spirit is also severe for the abuser.
In Semitic tradition, if you have sex with an unmarried woman then you are forced to marry her, albeit "marriage" is the same as the bonding between you. Marriage contracts and rituals is a human invention, even if God recommends that you make your marriage official including witnesses for the feeling of security for both parts and also to increase the feeling that it is serious business and a solemn oath.
In the end, everything has to do with how much one guards themselves against the instinct (satan) from expressing itself. We must guard us from ourselves, our weak Body that is easily tempted by its instinct being an advanced primate yet animal enough. God made it that way, as a contradiction in this World and deluded us so that we are tested to see if we are potent enough to see through and find the right path and discover we consist of two parts; Spirit and Body, and together they form the person, the Nafs in Arabic, but we must learn the Body is not the real you but it is in the Spirit and the Body is clearly a distraction for us and it contains satan (the instinct). Satan is our most ardent enemy, and Satan is (in) our own Body, that call to do things like a Beast, an animal. We need to master our Body like you would put a dog in place and show who is its Master rather than letting the Body run loose. It is about discipline, making the Spirit take precedence.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Peace Man of faith,
That seems to be correct.
Are you sure? Doesn't the Quran suggests that marriage consists of giving a dowry?
See this post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg373915#msg373915
You know a couple that are committed by oath is married according to the quran, right? Dowry doesn't necessarily determine whether that person is married or not, right?
O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,...btw i've replied to you on this post about how the quran evolves during time, but you seem to ignore me for some reason
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376830#msg376830And do check my reply to Wakas on this matter
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376837#msg376837But if you're too lazy to check it out i'll just post it here(my debate with wakas)
My debate with wakas
O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,...
I have provided a verse which states there is a way to marry without dowry and that is by oath
Ask yourself wakas before you label me as insincere, you seemed to disagree also that this verse is saying there other ways to marry without dowry,are you being insincere also, and nothing in the quran that says we need an imam or a fancy seremony to be marriedand a gf/bf relationship seems to fit right in your conditions before marriage below
Determining mutual attraction/compatibility CHECK
Ascertaining whether the potential partner is of similar beliefs/faith CHECK
Discussion of and agreeing to the level of dower and other terms (if any) (GF/BF relationship is a dowerless marriage and falls into the category of verse 3350)CHECK(They do a solemn oath)
Understanding and mutual acceptance of marriage as a solemn/strong oath/contract CHECK(They do a solemn oath)
If male, capable of providing for the family/household CHECK(The male usually provides more but sometimes each other if they're staying in the same house)
To have physically matured / post-puberty CHECK(In reality gf/bf relationships occurs in puberty they recognize love and intimacy after puberty)O you who have believed, avoid much assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.
Before you label me as insincere ask yourself why you disagree with the verse that says marriage with commitment by oath is possible is yourself being insincere also??A gf/bf relationship seems to check out above and the verse 3350 and, and @Wakas i didn't come here to have an emotional debate or judge or label people from what they think or write, i'm only here to have a healthy discussion
And do read my reply to TaroHiroshi on why the quran was meant to evolve from time to time
I'm interested to hear from you or your response @Wakas
Peace
My debate with you (TaroHiroshi)
Okay Peace Taro, you know the quran doesn't tell us to have a big ceremony or anything or somekind of witness,right? and in god explains there's another way of marriage without dowry and that is commitment by oath, and i didn't dismiss wakas or your suggestions on some quranic verse i've read them all before i even started the thread!
The quran said there are wives that are lawful by dowry and oath, dowry seems to be another way to get married with your money and by a certain oath committed(without dowry) you can fall into the same category as married too
And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?
Plus a marriage should not be determined with papers, and marriage issues should be solved by the couple without lawyers or a law involved to reduce hardships in a certain divorce
And once again i did not reject the quranic verse that you and @wakas brought me, but i'm trying to say that the quran provides a way for a couple to be categorized as married without dowry and that is by oath which a couple does before entering in a relationship.
Please hold your suspicion how i follow my greedy desire and @Wakas suspicions about how i ignore the quran and how insencere i am, i'm only here to have a healthy non-emotional discussion
O you who have believed, avoid much assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.
The reason i believe a gf/bf relationship is that i believe that the quran was supposed to evolve as time passes by and i believe that god uses flexible words to allow time and place to fit that person's situation.like in;
2431 "They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary."
god didn't told us what is necessary is but at some part of a certain country you need to be a little revealing if you want to fit in as time goes by this verse evolve, like wearing a hijab in the us, bad idea
and in O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful.
as time evolve
al-khamr(intoxicants) can mean drugs or any pharmaceutical ones that humans develop that can be a tool by the devil not just liquors
Al-Maisir(gamblin/games of chance) as time evolve it can be understood that it's just not gambling but any kind of game that involve luck and chance, for instance i got so hooked up in csgo that i forgot to salat, and in 591 al khamr and al-maisir are used to prevent believers from remebering god and contact prayer in todays world video games seems to be in the same cateogry as liquors because players have forgotten about salat after getting so
Al-Ansab(shrines) can mean any kind of place of worship not just altars but any kinds of place that involve a certain religious practice which by today used to manipulate their believers into doing evil things like spreading anti-semitism and such which probably all of us can relate
"Al-Azlam"(arrows of chance)in today's society, if they're in a tight situation they flip a coin to determined what they'll do next or any kind of decision making that uses luck even without arrows.
Now this is the reason why the quran was supposed to evolve, after i realized this my beliefs got stronger on how the quran was briliantly written and how god was such an amazing artist! But if these tools of devils can evolve after a lifetime then so can the definition of what marriage is, this is the reason why i believe a bf/gf= husband/wife according to the quran.
And i've realized also that to prevent diseases like AIDS to spread we cannot teach our kids that sex with your gf is sin or forbidden or go to hell because they'll just forget from time to time, but what we need is to teach them about loyalty, whether it's in a gf/bf relationship or legal marriage it's the loyalty, trust, and compassion that needs to be taught to to a kid, and with this technique when they're a fully grown mature adult they've already learned to respect the partner that has given her whole body and soul to and i guarantee STD's and any other disease will dicrease every year as long as we see pass out of our traditional views on what marriage is.
And i think that's about it, that's my reason on how the quran evolves after a centuries and so as the definition of marriage from time to time
Btw nice Keizer soze quote! love kevin spacey! and the movie(watched it 2 times and loved every bryan singers movie)
I'm interested on your thoughts on both of my reply to you and wakas because i too wrote it in an awful long time
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Hi kamenriderkiki,
You know a couple that are committed by oath is married according to the quran, right? Dowry doesn't necessarily determine whether that person is married or not, right?
O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God,...You are referring to a verse that is directed to the prophet, not to the muslims (submitters/peacemakers) or the mumins (believers/convinced). If you use a verse that is directed to the prophet to support the notion that a marriage doesn't consists of giving a dowry, then I think that your argument holds no weight. Because a verse that it is directed to the prophet is directed to the prophet, not to others. Let me repeat that one more time A verse that it is directed to the prophet is directed to the prophet, not to others.
From my understanding of the Quran, marriage consists of giving a dowry. In other words, marriage has a financial aspect that girlfriend/boyfriend relationships don't seem to have. The fact is that there are several Quranic verses which state that marriage consists of giving a dowry.
Quran 424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of God over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Quran 425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents, and give them their dowries in kindness-to be independent not for illicit sex or taking lovers. Until they become independent, any of them who comes with an immorality shall have half of what is the punishment for those who are independent. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Quran 55 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent females from those who are believers, and the independent females from those who have been given the Book before you, if you have given them their dowries, to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
Quran 2235 And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to the women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows that you will be thinking about them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not finalize the marriage contract until the interim in the book is reached. And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him, and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
Quran 2236 There is no sin upon you if you divorce the women before having sexual intercourse with them, or before setting the dowry for them. Let them have recompense, the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means. A recompense in goodness, a responsibility for the good doers.
Also, I think that verses 2235 and 2236 above (about divorce and interim period), CLEARLY show that a marriage is NOT the same as a girlfriend/boyfriend relationship.
btw i've replied to you on this post about how the quran evolves during time, but you seem to ignore me for some reason
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607700.msg376830#msg376830I am not ignoring you. But I don't want to participate in an endless discussion/debate about this topic. It seems that you have made up your mind regarding the definition of marriage. And if that's the case, then no matter what Quranic evidence I show you, you will ignore/reject it.
Now this is the reason why the quran was supposed to evolve, after i realized this my beliefs got stronger on how the quran was briliantly written and how god was such an amazing artist! But if these tools of devils can evolve after a lifetime then so can the definition of what marriage is, this is the reason why i believe a bf/gf= husband/wife according to the quran.
I think that the Quran is a living, dynamic text/scripture. And I think that the Quran is open to new interpretations. Also, I think that the Quran is a flexible text/scripture. That being said, the Quran seems to have many principles and laws/commandments that are practical/functional in all time periods (both the past, the present and the future), everywhere (in all circumstances) and for everyone (regardless of cultural background and ethnicity). And since these principles and laws/commandments appear to be practical/functional in all time periods, everywhere and for everyone, then it seems that these principles and laws/commandments don't need to be changed, don't need to be modificated and don't need to evolve. For example, the Quran forbids adultery and the act of killing innocent people (see verse 6151). The Quranic commandments/laws regarding adultery and murder seem to be applicable at all times, in all circumstances and for everyone. If these laws/commandments are applicable at all times, in all circumstances and for everyone, then this suggests that these laws/commandments don't need need to change, don't need to be modificated and don't need to evolve. "Islam based on the Quran", is a perfected, complete and fully detailed deen (system/way of life). And in my view, such a system DOESN'T need to change at all. I think that such a system ONLY needs to be reinterpreted and adapted to the existing reality.
The Quran suggests that Islam is a perfected, complete and fully detailed deen (system/way of life)
Quran 53 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on altars, and what you divide through arrows of chance. This is vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not be concerned by them, but be concerned by Me. Today I have perfected your system (deen) for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have approved submission (islam) as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Quran 6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? " Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
Quran 6115 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
Purity and chastity seem to be virtues that have gone out of fashion these days. And I think that's a shame. I think that there are many good reasons to save sex until marriage. In my opinion, there are both material/physical and spiritual benefits of celibacy before marriage... If only you could understand.
As mentioned earlier, I don't want to participate in an endless discussion/debate about this topic. Also, I disagree with your claim that a boyfriend and girlfriend can have sexual relations outside of marriage. Because there is no Quranic evidence that supports your claim, in my opinion. On the contrary, I think that there is solid Quranic evidence (in several posts in this thread) that disproves your claim.
As you know, I don't agree with your views regarding marriage. And you don't agree with my views regarding marriage. Therefore, I think that it is better if we just agree to disagree.
This is my last post to you in this thread.
Peace.
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Hi kamenriderkiki,
You are referring to a verse that is directed to the prophet, not to the muslims (submitters/peacemakers) or the mumins (believers/convinced). If you use a verse that is directed to the prophet to support the notion that a marriage doesn't consists of a dowry, then I think that your argument holds no weight. Because a verse that it is directed to the prophet is directed to the prophet, not to others. Let me repeat that one more time A verse that it is directed to the prophet is directed to the prophet, not to others.
O ye who believe! obey God, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Messenger, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day that is best, and most suitable for final determination. (4 59)
They're humans just like us, no different,
If they're allowed to do it, we can too
As you know, I don't agree with your views regarding marriage. And you don't agree with my views regarding marriage. Therefore, I think that it is better if we just agree to disagree.
This is my last post to you in this thread.
Peace.
Sometimes in some other post you're a little bit dishonest too at times Taro, don't mean no disrespect or anything but remember the salat is not physical post i asked you about how you do your salat but you replied with
As far as I know, it is not important to know how others do their Salat. In my view, it is not important to know how I do Salat or how many times a day I do Salat .
Be a little honest to anyone next time okay, don't hold back information, not accusing you or anything just a little friendly tip.
I hope you're not quitting on this thread because numerous people disagree with your strict view of the quran, but nevertheless i hope we can have a friendly discussion someday in my upcoming thread in regards about a certain topic that you may relate to.Quran 424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of God over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Quran 425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents, and give them their dowries in kindness-to be independent not for illicit sex or taking lovers. Until they become independent, any of them who comes with an immorality shall have half of what is the punishment for those who are independent. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Quran 55 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent females from those who are believers, and the independent females from those who have been given the Book before you, if you have given them their dowries, to be independent, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.
Quran 2235 And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to the women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows that you will be thinking about them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. And do not finalize the marriage contract until the interim in the book is reached. And know that God knows what is in your souls, so be aware of Him, and know that God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
Quran 2236 There is no sin upon you if you divorce the women before having sexual intercourse with them, or before setting the dowry for them. Let them have recompense, the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means. A recompense in goodness, a responsibility for the good doers.
I was about to refute you about those verses you just posted above, but since you gave up on our discussion, then writing my interpretation of those verse is pointless if you're quitting...oh well
Good night and good luck
-kamen
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To my knowledge, it is not always so.
Can you explain why?
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Because I found this statement on the Qur'an
. . . . . .
Please check 3350.
7029 Those who conceal their private parts.
7030 Except around their spouses or those committed to by oath, there is no blame.
7031 Then, whoever seeks anything beyond this, they are the transgressors.Puny humans like us can too have a spouse who is committed by oath according to this verse...
Goodnight, and Goodluck...
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@ kamenriderkiki
Please study/read verse 3350 more carefully.
Good night.
3350 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry, and the one who is committed to you by oath, as granted to you by God, and the daughters of your father's brothers, and the daughters of
your father's sisters, and the daughters of your mother's brothers, and the daughters of your mother's sisters, of
whom they have emigrated with you. Also, the acknowledging woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to those who acknowledge. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are still dependants. This is to spare you any hardship. God is Forgiver, Compassionate.
Also, the acknowledging woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to those who acknowledge.
God was talking about the woman who had decreed herself to the prophet that are exclusive to him...not the one's that are committed by oath or by dowry, the daughters of his father's brothers, and the daughters of his father's sisters, and the daughters of his mother's brothers, and the daughters of his mother's sisters.
I suggest that you too should read more carefully when there are dots(.) and commas(,) visible, no offense.
The ones that are committed by oath are lawful for us in 7030 according to God.-Goodnight and good luck
peace
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that are exclusive to him...
So, based on your statement above,
I think you admit that there's thing that exclusive only for prophet, right?
That's what I want to point out. Please check again my statement on Reply #140.
To my knowledge, it is not always so.
See?
I do not intend to discuss with you about "those committed to by oath".
What I disagree is this statement
If they're allowed to do it, we can too
I hope you understand what I mean here,
if you don't, then I don't think I can help you to understand it.
Peace.
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I do not intend to discuss with you about " those committed to by oath".
What I disagree is this statement
I hope you understand what I mean here,
if you don't, then I don't think I can help you to understand it.
Peace.
My mistake, i thought we were having "the committed by oath" discussion that i was having with wakas and taro handshake
You know you could've been more clearer if you hadn't wrote so shortly you know or explain it in detail in the first place about what you meantSo you agree about my argument that a marriage that is committed by oath instead of dowry is possible then?...
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I was wondering if 1 female and 1 male got stuck on an island together with no hope of getting back to the city and they want to re-populate the island does it count that both of them are committing zina?They're both not legally married. Does loving each other counts as religiously married according to the quran?
It's not a joke it's a serious question
salaam
the question has no sense for me.
first, there is no religious marriage in quran. word nikah is used for example for mariage of idolaters (24-3)
second, nikah is just the marriage contract, Nothing to do with sex see 33-49 who spoke about "nikah" without sex.
third Concubine is called malakat aymanoukom in quran, that is a verbal committment
fourth zina has nothing to do with sex. It is defaming someone.Nikah is just a contract who garantee women rights. It give women rights on what husband earn and rights in inheritage.
Concubinage is not appreciated by quran because of that. it give no "official" rights to women. But it is not forbidden.4-3 has nothing to do with polygamy. it begins with (And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans) and there is no logical relation with second part if we intend polygamy. It is speaking about charity and asking muslim to help women in need or in status of concubine to get married.
33-50 to 33-52 is allowing to prophet, exceptionnaly, to maintain women and concubines he had before revelation and hijra and forbids him to take any new spouse. Khadija never existed.
For others, the rule is monogamy. 33-50 is clear that quran imposed difficult rules to others muslims concerning sposes and concubines.Quran give no sexual rights on slaves. 'i will not debate on the question if slavery is allowed.
Peace
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My mistake, i thought we were having "the committed by oath" discussion that i was having with wakas and taro handshake
It is okay. )
You know you could've been more clearer if you hadn't wrote so shortly you know or explain it in detail in the first place about what you meant
I'm sorry.
So you agree about my argument that a marriage that is committed by oath instead of dowry is possible then?...
I think my current knowledge is not adequate enough to answer such question.
By the way, why you seem so interested about this issue?
Whether you want to marriage without giving dowry?
Peace.
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It is okay. )
I'm sorry.
I think my current knowledge is not adequate enough to answer such question.
By the way, why you seem so interested about this issue?
Whether you want to marriage without giving dowry?
Peace.
When i started to wonder why so many muslims drink alcohol, i found out that the quran never prohibits them instead in 1667 wine making is encouraged, When some part of my country starts practicing rajm(stoning) and lashing(a sharia law country), and child marriage i started to observe why so many committed couples have sex out of marriage, muslim or not, i was beginning to wonder if a committed couple is on the same degree as a married couple, they support each other both financially and have the same commitment as a normal married couple would, the word committed by oath in 3350 got me thinking that way so as in 7030.
I don' like the way the women are called sl*ts or the guy is called a stud when they engage in sexual activity, or they should be lashed or stoned to death, not trying to justify fornication btw..I'm not really sure about committed by oath means concubine btw...
I was wondering if 1 female and 1 male got stuck on an island together with no hope of getting back to the city and they want to re-populate the island does it count that both of them are committing zina?They're both not legally married. Does loving each other counts as religiously married according to the quran?
It's not a joke it's a serious question
salaam
the question has no sense for me.
I meant that from the eyes of God are these couples are considered as adulterers or not...they're stuck on an island and can't get married like normal people do in a normal society
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So you're calling me individualistic to the core because i have a different point of view on what a marriage is than you or society...very tolerant of you
today, tolerance means political correctness
i am very politically incorrect
The couple on the island are similar to gf/bf relationship so yeah it's still in context
it is not the same context, because you live on an island, there's only 2 individuals left on earth, this is not a realistic scenario
after about a few generations the whole family would be so inbred that the line wouldn't continue anyway and you'd end up with humanity vanished from earth
it's not a realistic scenario, and you can't use that scenario to validate fantasies about anything
i'm reminded of some shia rule that say paying a prostitute is like temporary marriage of one hour, something along those lines
Btw If your eye is still functioning well i wrote that the couple on the island wants to re-populate
Btw if you can scroll to the top of the website's page you'll notice that there's a tiny banner named "Free-Minds", and that is the website's name, and the word "Free" means that i can share or ask a question or have discussion on any topic i want, i'm an open-minded person and free to take any opinion or any person's thought(even you) no need to judge me as "individualistic to the core" just because i have a different interpretation of the quran than you.i am not an open minded person, i am a critically minded person
im simply saying this is how you look like when you try to justify whatever you're trying to justify using unrealistic examples
if you want to talk about the state of the institution of marriage in the west today, we can do this, i think marriage in the western world is a joke because of the divorce laws associated with it
we can talk about how divorce is now a multi million, perhaps a multi billion dollar business in the USA, or how marriage, and the concept of family, has been tarnished with the idea that any can marry anything and be a "family"A GF/BF or fiance are just labels in my point of view, and tell me what's the difference between a couple relationship and today's marriage? what does it require to be labelled as married, huh? papers? and imam or priest that requests a permission from God that these couple are married? tell me on what is your definition of marriage?
it requires witnesses, it requires following the simple rules laid out by the quran, it requires yes indeed papers, because the day your girlfriend gets pregnant, you will pop out yet another child on earth, and if the family is not strong, the child grows up wrong and ends up becoming a problem for society
you're talking about this subject using anecdotal evidence, thinking that because you have no issues with your situation, this system can now be applied for everyonewe see what's happening in the west, especially in the USA and especially for the blacks in the USA, 70% of black homes are single mother homes
marriage means commitment, and when we let people be absolutely free to do as they please, without guidance (because guiding them, in today's society, would be considered "authoritarianism", without advices, they end up with 70% single mother households, drug usage and crime through the roof, poverty and destitution, and the most important factor being rejected responsibilityyou will notice how the people who claim to be the most free also never talk about responsibility
the founding fathers of the USA knew the important that responsibility had when talking about freedom, but in today's world, we live in a society of entitlement freedom, and freedom from responsibilities -
I think from hte several combinations and factors given in the twenty first ayas of An-Nur I think it has a lot to do with society and sexual morality.
May peole tend to make a lot of what the punishment of zina is but forget what follows which gives the right perspective. The thrust of the wholething is to free societies of suspicion and slandering particularly women. Insist that sex is something private and that nboody is entitled to intrude in the privacy of people least of all with purpose of inspecting sexual life somebody else.
So I do think that it is about sexual morality that the question turns and fixes not so much the way to punish it but the way to keep people from using sexual life as a weapon against other people, particularly women.
There is no particular interestshown in punishing misbehaviour on that count, since upon nobody is imposed the obligation of testifying. It is the person who launches a statement regarding somebody else sexual misbehaviour who must come with witnesses, not people who are called by God to act as witnesses.Summing up, it is a deterrent por people, as said, to turn private sex into a weapon angainst particularly women.
So I would gather from it that zina is any ilicit sex. Any sex considered ilicit. That would seemingly depend on which sex a society considers ilicit. If it is society that strictly follows the Qur'an obviously ilicit sex would be any sex that is done against qura'nic unjunctions between a man and a woman.
Salaam
Salaam
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Salam All,
Referring to Q24.33, i think there is a distinction between the act of zina and prostitution, thus zina does not appear to be a mere act of illegal fornication. Zina is an act that can break apart marriages/commitments and the home institution. Homosexuality, prostitution is linked to lewdness in general. just my tots. peace.
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I know a part of aya 23.33 three has been many times trnslated as nto forc? your maids into rpostitution, but that is a horrendous translation which on the one had does not match the whole of the aya and on the other hand forces on the Qur'an a disdain for the fateyaat, translated as "maids", which is an ambivalent Word.
We know something that is very common in houses where girls are held as servants when they are accosted by the men in the house. It is a statistical facts that many such girls havebeen forced by forc? or by oaction into giving into the favours of the men and then getting pregnant, thrown out and so on.
I am sure that is meant in this case and not that the master goes arround selling his girls because that is something wholly of another order and does not match the whle of the aya. It is not tlking about prostitution as an institution, legal or ilegal, but about abusing those girls under your protection. From where it can be inferred that it is talking aobut prostitution at all The firl is being had for free. Her services are not being sold but she is forced by their masters.
As to the assumption that prostitution does not break a marriage.... Well, wel,well... whose marriage? Those where she does not have any idea he goes to prostitutes or which marriage?
I can assure you I might have some understanding for a sudden or unwanted weakness in a partner and falling once. I might. But for my man going to prostitutes, I would never want to see him again, not for a minute nor from any distance. I would spit on him. Pig? Humans do not go around marrying pigs!
For God's sake. If a woman puts up with that, what kind of moral or self-respect or respect for her husband does she have?
Does not break marriages? Yes, what kind of marriage is that. At any rate does the Qur'an support that. Even if the aya you mention were to refer in fact to prostitution how does it make it right or cceptable or not zina? It is not saying that what the master does is not zina it is telling them not to force their maids into whtever it is. Because, you see, it would not be zina for the forced person, but for the forcing person it would certainly be. Or would you say the fact that it is forced makes it better. Also i the aya no distinction is made between those doing the forcing being married or unmarried. It is a whole different question that it is being dealt with in that aya ONe in which somebody is being forced by somebody else into having sex.
Salaam