Answering Difficult Questions From Atheists

[hawk99]

Peace, the problem with discussing with "others" is the misunderstanding
of the deen by the Muslim or the believer, let us look at what Allah says
in this regard

And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together.
So, will you then compel mankind, until they become believers. (1099) nope

We believers must come to understand that disbelief is necessary and is part of
the balance of creation.

Belief Disbelief
Acceptance https//encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbnANd9GcQykkR-n5XjaHwzWx3o4RkC0YeGnMCEoMao8qrfxvotWvg515oMmA Rejection

God bless

[Man_of_Faith]

Hello Kamen,

Looks like judaism beliefs are right? And they're not wrong for disbelieving the concept of hell...but our nafs being inserted into another endoskeleton are you implying that reincarnation is possible?

As far as I personally have been able to reinterpret Quran it does support the idea of reincarnation. Also there is a hint in the sectarian version when it says about Hell "in it when their skins are burned they are given new ones". I have found an alternative interpretation which sounds more plausible and coherent and with a God that speaks more compassionately and who has problems with people for what they do in their delusion first of all. I think if everyone knew who they are and where they come from they would make a "face-palm" unless they had realized already.

I have not derived any of the information from Judaic lore but it is all from Quran. Jews believe/believed in a valley called by that word but it is on Earth as far as I know, but I am not so involved in Judaism in concern of sectarian doctrinal information. They believe they are within Hell for a certain amount of days and in ways they are right about it, but no one of them gets out unless they grow spiritually. Jahannom is a misinterpreted word for a miserable "otherworld" while it refers to the phenomenon we are in right now and it is what you make of it, and if you grow out of delusion it does not have to be so bad and everlasting.

Be safe
Amenuel

[Taro_Hiroshi]

Peace Alper88,

My answer was that I simply do not know everything, but that the Qur'an states that we will be tested with different kinds of hardships (including our wealth, life and death) to see whether we will always be grateful to God or not and say "We are to Him and to Him we return", and that all children will most likely go to heaven.

Unfortunately the average atheist will not be satisfied with that answer, because of all the pain and sorrow caused to family members. They don't know why a Merciful God would allow that to happen and why He would test us in such a way.

I think that if God had stopped people from doing evil/bad actions then people had the opportunity to choose between doing right/good or wrong/bad actions. And then free will/choice would not exist. Because free will/choice can only exist if people are enabled to choose between doing right/good or wrong/bad. If everyone was forced to only do good deeds, then free will/choice wouldn't exists. And then people would have been just like robots. If people do not have free will/choice, then they will deprived of the ability to perform good actions/deeds by their own will. And then there would be no point in rewarding or punishing people in the next life. Also, such a system would be unfair. Because everyone would be good, not because of their own will/choice, but because they were programmed to only do good deeds/actions.

Also, if God had stopped people from doing evil/bad actions, then he would have broke the laws of nature. I am not saying that God can not do such a thing. In my view, God can break his own laws, if he wills. Because it seems that God is all-powerful and can do everything. That being said, it seems that God doesn't break its own laws. Because the Quran suggests that God's sunna never changes (see verse 1777).

I would like to share a quote here.

?Evil exists to glorify the good. Evil is negative good. It is a relative term. Evil can be transmuted into good. What is evil to one at one time, becomes good at another time to somebody else.?

• Mencius

Another simple question was "If God is so Merciful, why does He throw atheists in Hellfire for eternity?"

My answer was that God gives us the time to use our reasoning to think about creation, and that it is against our own nature and logic to deny a Creator.

The average atheist will again not be satisfied with this answer and say "But doesn't He love us? How can He let a soul whom He is supposed to love so much burn for eternity?"

I said that there are different opinions about that and that some Qur'an alone muslims believe Hellfire is not eternal http//quransmessage.com/articles/is%20the%20punishment%20of%20hell%20eternal%20FM3.htm

It seems that hell and paradise are allegorical. I recommend this thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607008.msg359021#msg359021

Also, I think that there is a clue about what will happen to the souls of those who are kafirs (ingrates) in the next life.

Quran 955 So do not be impressed by their wealth or children; God only wishes to punish them with it in the worldly life, and so that their souls will be taken while they are rejecters.

[Student_of_Allah]

Shalom Aleikhem Alper,

Peace.

As a believer and frequent reader of the Qur'an myself, I noticed I had great difficulty with answering certain questions that atheists asked me.

One of them asked "Isn't your God the One who makes sick and cures again according to your Qur'an? Doesn't your Qur'an say that all good comes from God and all evil comes supposedly from ourselves? If God is so Merciful, why does He give cancer to little children who never stand a chance to have a go at life?"

My answer was that I simply do not know everything, but that the Qur'an states that we will be tested with different kinds of hardships (including our wealth, life and death) to see whether we will always be grateful to God or not and say "We are to Him and to Him we return", and that all children will most likely go to heaven.

While I do understand the concept of testing, I cannot agree with that sort of an explanation. Yes, it is not entirely impossible that such a God would test us with hardship. I get that. However, the 5 year old girl that will be brutally raped today, go tell her that your loving and merciful God is allowing that to happen so that he can test her with "hardship". Do you realize how egregiously asinine that sounds? It is almost as if we are talking about the test of the devil, not of a God!

Unfortunately the average atheist will not be satisfied with that answer, because of all the pain and sorrow caused to family members. They don't know why a Merciful God would allow that to happen and why He would test us in such a way.

You forgot to add the part about the absolute irrational thing about an all knowing entity needing to test in the first place. Look, you and I know aren't all knowing, yet, we don't need to beat up our laptops with a sledge hammer, throw it down from top of the tallest building in town and boil it in water for 1 week to test if it will be fine. We don't ever do things like that because we are certain that it'll stop working. Another simpler example would be to drop a glass from top of the tallest building in town down to the pavement to test if it will survive. We don't do that because despite not knowing everything about everything, we already have very good reasons to believe that the glass will be broken into many pieces the moment it'll hit the pavement. You all knowing God knows not everything about us, but also everything that is to be known about everything. Therefore, the very idea of TESTING becomes pointless.

Another simple question was "If God is so Merciful, why does He throw atheists in Hellfire for eternity?"

My answer was that God gives us the time to use our reasoning to think about creation, and that it is against our own nature and logic to deny a Creator.

The average atheist will again not be satisfied with this answer and say "But doesn't He love us? How can He let a soul whom He is supposed to love so much burn for eternity?"

I said that there are different opinions about that and that some Qur'an alone muslims believe Hellfire is not eternal http//quransmessage.com/articles/is%20the%20punishment%20of%20hell%20eternal%20FM3.htm

First of all, let me just put it out there that even if I assume that there is a God, I don't have to assume that God will throw atheists into hell-fire just because they didn't believe. A God that will judge me not based on my actions but based on my beliefs about what I had no reason to believe in in the first place, doesn't deserve my respect, let alone worship. Seriously? If someone found no reason to believe that you are you, would you pour gasoline on them and set them ablaze? Only psychopaths behave that way. Doesn't sound like a loving merciful and reasonable God to me.

It'd be unfair for me to speak on behalf of all athests. However, I can talk about my beliefs. I do not believe that there is a God because I cannot find a reason to believe that there is one. I am extremely lucky that I have been a member of this forum for some time and you'll be able to check my previous posts from day 1 and verify that I actually tried. A lot of people, especially on the internet, just assumes that I am trolling and making things up when I say "I really tried and I really believed". Lucky for me that on this forum I don't have to convince people of that as my history is preserved here.

Now, my question to you is, what do you do when you can't find a reason to believe? How is that your fault? Let alone a fault deserving of being tortured by some cosmic dictator? For example, I take it that at this moment you hold the beliefs that you do because you are convinced of them one way or the other. Therefore, even though you could be wrong, you feel justified in believing in Allah. Right? The same is true for people like me. Having no reason to believe in Gods, we simply don't believe. How is that a punishable crime?

Having no evidence for Gods or disproves of Gods, I turned into an atheist. There could be no Gods at all, or one God or many. I just have no evidence for any of those possibilities. Until the day I do, I refuse to believe in any of those possibilities. How can a supremely loving, merciful and just God not appreciate that honesty?

That system of carrot and stick just won't work on me. I refuse to believe in anything out of the fear of hell or for the promise of a heaven. That system isn't used by truthful individuals anyway. You never see a scientists publishing papers and being like "If you just believe in my claim without testing, I will give you money, otherwise I'll take you to the basement and torture you".

Peace

------------ Student of Allah

[unknownuser]

Hello Kamen,

As far as I personally have been able to reinterpret Quran it does support the idea of reincarnation. Also there is a hint in the sectarian version when it says about Hell "in it when their skins are burned they are given new ones". I have found an alternative interpretation which sounds more plausible and coherent and with a God that speaks more compassionately and who has problems with people for what they do in their delusion first of all. I think if everyone knew who they are and where they come from they would make a "face-palm" unless they had realized already.

I have not derived any of the information from Judaic lore but it is all from Quran. Jews believe/believed in a valley called by that word but it is on Earth as far as I know, but I am not so involved in Judaism in concern of sectarian doctrinal information. They believe they are within Hell for a certain amount of days and in ways they are right about it, but no one of them gets out unless they grow spiritually. Jahannom is a misinterpreted word for a miserable "otherworld" while it refers to the phenomenon we are in right now and it is what you make of it, and if you grow out of delusion it does not have to be so bad and everlasting.

Be safe
Amenuel

If johanomm means metaphor of tasting fire from your interpretation can paradise mean that were tasting joy?

[Invalid777]

Shalom Aleikhem Alper,

While I do understand the concept of testing, I cannot agree with that sort of an explanation. Yes, it is not entirely impossible that such a God would test us with hardship. I get that. However, the 5 year old girl that will be brutally raped today, go tell her that your loving and merciful God is allowing that to happen so that he can test her with "hardship". Do you realize how egregiously asinine that sounds? It is almost as if we are talking about the test of the devil, not of a God!

You forgot to add the part about the absolute irrational thing about an all knowing entity needing to test in the first place. Look, you and I know aren't all knowing, yet, we don't need to beat up our laptops with a sledge hammer, throw it down from top of the tallest building in town and boil it in water for 1 week to test if it will be fine. We don't ever do things like that because we are certain that it'll stop working. Another simpler example would be to drop a glass from top of the tallest building in town down to the pavement to test if it will survive. We don't do that because despite not knowing everything about everything, we already have very good reasons to believe that the glass will be broken into many pieces the moment it'll hit the pavement. You all knowing God knows not everything about us, but also everything that is to be known about everything. Therefore, the very idea of TESTING becomes pointless.

First of all, let me just put it out there that even if I assume that there is a God, I don't have to assume that God will throw atheists into hell-fire just because they didn't believe. A God that will judge me not based on my actions but based on my beliefs about what I had no reason to believe in in the first place, doesn't deserve my respect, let alone worship. Seriously? If someone found no reason to believe that you are you, would you pour gasoline on them and set them ablaze? Only psychopaths behave that way. Doesn't sound like a loving merciful and reasonable God to me.

It'd be unfair for me to speak on behalf of all athests. However, I can talk about my beliefs. I do not believe that there is a God because I cannot find a reason to believe that there is one. I am extremely lucky that I have been a member of this forum for some time and you'll be able to check my previous posts from day 1 and verify that I actually tried. A lot of people, especially on the internet, just assumes that I am trolling and making things up when I say "I really tried and I really believed". Lucky for me that on this forum I don't have to convince people of that as my history is preserved here.

Now, my question to you is, what do you do when you can't find a reason to believe? How is that your fault? Let alone a fault deserving of being tortured by some cosmic dictator? For example, I take it that at this moment you hold the beliefs that you do because you are convinced of them one way or the other. Therefore, even though you could be wrong, you feel justified in believing in Allah. Right? The same is true for people like me. Having no reason to believe in Gods, we simply don't believe. How is that a punishable crime?

Having no evidence for Gods or disproves of Gods, I turned into an atheist. There could be no Gods at all, or one God or many. I just have no evidence for any of those possibilities. Until the day I do, I refuse to believe in any of those possibilities. How can a supremely loving, merciful and just God not appreciate that honesty?

That system of carrot and stick just won't work on me. I refuse to believe in anything out of the fear of hell or for the promise of a heaven. That system isn't used by truthful individuals anyway. You never see a scientists publishing papers and being like "If you just believe in my claim without testing, I will give you money, otherwise I'll take you to the basement and torture you".

Peace

------------ Student of Allah

Peace

A baby getting raped sounds tragic. A person murdered for no reason also sounds tragic. If GOD was to interfere, the rapist would not have raped and the murderer would not have murdered hence there would be no free will.

The Quran speaks of the baby girls who were buried alive for no reason. On the day of resurrection, her killers will be asked for what reason was she murdered. Her killers will suffer for what their hands brought forth and go to hell for it. Did the baby girl deserve it? No. Did she do anything wrong? No. So why did it happen? Because God gave us free will and if you follow your instinct(Satan), you don't just destroy yourself, you also hurt other fellow humans.

You don't deserve anything from GOD and neither do I. Did you ask GOD to give you life, a pair of eyes, legs, arms, unlimited oxygen etc? You didn't and neither do you deserve them. Everything you have is out of GOD's mercy. GOD does not owe you anything, let alone your life. All bad stuff happens because of ourselves and the people around us. They chose to follow their instinct(Satan), misguide their offspring, cause corruption and bloodshed.
Do you blame GOD for all those misguided and lost Muslims? Their parents spread corruption and that is where it came from, Not GOD.

[Man_of_Faith]

If johanomm means metaphor of tasting fire from your interpretation can paradise mean that were tasting joy?

Jahannom is an "attachment to Body/Outer Layer" condition. The word basically means that literally. It comes from the same root as which is used for the to me infamous Jinn word which does mean in reality "Outer Layer" as in "skin" basically. This is practically the same word that you use to say "flesh". (al-jinn) could be translated "the Bodily" (literally "the fleshly&quot. Jannateh (jannah) which is interpreted as Garden by the deluded sectarian scholars obviously mean "Body" (flesh with an object noun singular/uncounted suffix). Depending on the discourse "jannateh" could refer to the Body of virtually anything though.

This is not an unfounded reasoning because you can find the definitions that I use in ancient lexicons, something that clothes/covers an object is a definition for Jinn.

Do not just accept anything of what people say even if they are respected scholars or every person on Earth agrees on something. This is the trap that many have fallen into and why Quran looks just the same as when those medieval deluded sectarian scholars were interpreting Quran and shaped Islam into what it is, a Pagan religion.

There is no direct mention of any paradise but the result is that you will exist in God basically. The mainstream word for Paradise is already disqualified as meaning something else. The word for Heaven (asema) literally means "Hole/Opening/Door", but it may also be that it would refer metaphorically to something like "ether" or "void", i.e. empty space and which holds no mass. In contrast between Heaven and Earth, then obviously Heaven means what is abstract while Earth is physical (ardh means literally "be foundation/solid visible&quot. Paradise is something that a Bodily human likes because they love to be it and their comprehension can only comprehend a physical otherworld.

When you die and you are released from the Flesh then you are absorbed and no longer exist in any physical form but in this ether or void. That is what is meant by to "go to Heaven".

If one accepts my skill in morphological Arabic then you can translate Al-asema as "Be Such - Be Spirit Thereof Be", i.e. "from where the Spirit comes". God is not particularly complicated and it is very easy to see what it means.

Just the same as why salam means "pristine/sound" because the morphological breakdown is "Spirit (As) Such Thereof" obviously in reference to God, since every Arabic word always refers back to God.

This is to learn what has not been taught before so you may like to consider its validity by the sanity in the explanations themselves. God always comes with further elaboration.

Be safe
Amenuel

[Jafar]

While I do understand the concept of testing, I cannot agree with that sort of an explanation. Yes, it is not entirely impossible that such a God would test us with hardship. I get that. However, the 5 year old girl that will be brutally raped today, go tell her that your loving and merciful God is allowing that to happen so that he can test her with "hardship". Do you realize how egregiously asinine that sounds? It is almost as if we are talking about the test of the devil, not of a God!

The more I think about it, the more the idea of "soul reincarnation" makes sense.
Vis-a-vis you only lived once and then you wait for final judgement day and then you shall either go to heaven or hell for eternity.
As widely believed by the West.

Now it has been revealed that even time and space is a creation.
Thus the conception of "Judgement Day" doesn't make sense at all.
Why wait until Judgement Day? As the "Judgement" can be passed even before the soul is being born into this world.
Given all of his deed is already known by the "God".
Since this "God" doesn't have any limitation of time and space and can foresee much into the future.

Back to the main topic.

Within the idea of "soul reincarnation", (as widely believed in the East) there isn't any judgement day.
Which I agree as the idea of "Judgement Day" is quite ridiculous after the thought explained above.

The entire process of "reincarnation" is being governed by the rule or law "Karma".
Which in the essence is basically "What goes around comes around".

And since the time (and space) is also a "creation".
The process of reincarnation might not be necessarily always move forward in time.. or happening at the same place..
A soul incarnated as somebody in 1960 can be reincarnated as somebody else living in 2000 BC.. and at totally different place.

The only verse in the Quran which at the first glance might looks like "against" the idea of reincarnation is

"When death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back. I will then work righteousness in everything I left." Not true. This is a false claim that he makes."
2399

Which is correct either, if the soul is being incarnated with exactly the same context, he or she will do exactly the same thing!
Not much use..
Although.. if he or she (or it) was incarnated in different context... that might be a different story..

Back to the "Raped 5 years old girl" case..
With the framework of "reincarnation" it can be explained as
The raped 5 years old girl might be a rapist who raped another little girl on his/her/it other incarnation.
And she's living in the context where she just "earn" what she deserves.. the time for her/his/it rewards.
The soul is now experiencing the "other side of the fence"....

As the soul incarnate and incarnate and incarnate.. the soul is getting more 'experienced'... more 'wise'..
Since it has experienced as Rapist and Rape Victim, it will become more 'sensitive'.. more empathycal... and who knows on it's other reincarnation it shall become a "Rape Rights Activist"... (as example).

Those who hate the Jews will be incarnated as Jews..
Those who hate the Arabs will be incarnated as Arabs..
Those who are murderer will be incarnated and shall experienced being murdered..
Fair retribution... and the overall process shall make the soul grow "wiser" as it gets more varying experience..

The number of times of being reincarnated is perhaps unlimited.. as unlimited as the number of possible universes..

The Buddhist however believe that there will be an end to this cycle of reincarnation..
It's when the soul has achieved the state of "ultimate wisdom" (dubbed Mokhsa).
Where it no longer need to have further experience of being incarnated and finally become "One with the Universe" (or God, just take which terms that suit you best) a state of blissful egolessness dubbed "Nirvana". (Not the rock band)

[Man_of_Faith]

Hello Jafar,

The more I think about it, the more the idea of "soul reincarnation" makes sense.
Vis-a-vis you only lived once and then you wait for final judgement day and then you shall either go to heaven or hell for eternity.
As widely believed by the West.

My independent Quran research indicates clear arguments for the concept of reincarnation. And a person can join the "Kingdom" right here, right now just as Jesus and John the Baptist said "the Kingdom is at hand". This is because we are not waiting for some silly paradise and doing so is a trap. We are waiting for dissolution of our own Flesh attachment, or rather we are actively working towards this goal if we are knowing of what life is. After that we basically exist in our Originator (the Father/abbua), and this you can begin to do even while the Body lives before dissolution just as it was once said "the Kingdom is at hand".

The Heaven vs Hell is just sectarian conjecture and fantasies based on literary misconception and fancy. Hell did not even exist in religious sources up until a certain age when the clerics and scribes begun to conjecture about it. The Hell that exists is "attachment to Flesh", i.e. to have to endure being restrained to one of these Bodies, and it is right here and no other place.

Within the idea of "soul reincarnation", (as widely believed in the East) there isn't any judgement day.
Which I agree as the idea of "Judgement Day" is quite ridiculous after the thought explained above.

The entire process of "reincarnation" is being governed by the rule or law "Karma".
Which in the essence is basically "What goes around comes around".

And since the time (and space) is also a "creation".
The process of reincarnation might not be necessarily always move forward in time.. or happening at the same place..
A soul incarnated as somebody in 1960 can be reincarnated as somebody else living in 2000 BC.. and at totally different place.

You are wise, brother Jafar. I can see the Father in you due to the diminished Fleshly/Bodily affection on you. Keep up the good work at "separating the Spirit from the Flesh".

The only verse in the Quran which at the first glance might looks like "against" the idea of reincarnation is

"When death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back. I will then work righteousness in everything I left." Not true. This is a false claim that he makes."
2399

Which is correct either, if the soul is being incarnated with exactly the same context, he or she will do exactly the same thing!
Not much use..
Although.. if he or she (or it) was incarnated in different context... that might be a different story..

Quran as interpreted by the sectarians is worthless as guidance for a man, virtually. You can understand more if you detach yourself from it, which I know you already have. Trust your Spirit instead like I did when I exposed the whole Quran interpretation as an ancient hoax.

Those who hate the Jews will be incarnated as Jews..
Those who hate the Arabs will be incarnated as Arabs..
Those who are murderer will be incarnated and shall experienced being murdered..
Fair retribution... and the overall process shall make the soul grow "wiser" as it gets more varying experience..

Probably a good summary. It is like what Isaiah once said about that the ones who do wrong will be given something in return to full value of their deed. The best solution to that lies in the deed itself, i.e. simply do not hate. Why do we hate? That is an lowly instinct, such as that worldly Allah god seems to hate people from right to left because he does not get the attention like a 5 year old. That Allah is just from themselves, it is a mirror of themselves.

The Rabb/Sustainer/ once said to Moses "I am who am I" and that is the concept for us. In the I AM you should be. Jesus clarified it well with "I am in the Father and the Father in me" (therefore I AM). That spectacular 'Higher Intelligence' (our Foundation) speaks from within ourselves as our Spirit. There is no separate deity on a throne somewhere that must be revered and has angels with wings flying around him. Silly primitive conjecture that is. That they make gods that are primitive still in the 21st century is interesting, clear Paganism.

I am sorry for interrupting your correspondence with "Student of Allah" with my input.

Where it no longer need to have further experience of being incarnated and finally become "One with the Universe" (or God, just take which terms that suit you best) a state of blissful egolessness dubbed "Nirvana". (Not the rock band)

Yes. Quran argues just the same if you dump the baseless sectarian interpretation of it. It really does.

And Quran also approves of association with the Rabb/Sustainer contrary to the sectarian understanding. It is clear because the word Allah means "Who Is As Such" being third person (semi) object/pronoun form of "I am who am I" from the Bible.

In fact Quran argues things in total contrast to what the sect Islam stands for to the point it could be regarded as a complete misrepresentation.

Be safe
Amenuel

[reel]

While I do understand the concept of testing, I cannot agree with that sort of an explanation. Yes, it is not entirely impossible that such a God would test us with hardship. I get that. However, the 5 year old girl that will be brutally raped today, go tell her that your loving and merciful God is allowing that to happen so that he can test her with "hardship". Do you realize how egregiously asinine that sounds? It is almost as if we are talking about the test of the devil, not of a God!

I have been wondering about that for a while. I even asked the forum question about it. I do not truly reject incarnation, but saying that the 5 year old girl got raped because she probably was a rapist in her previous life is pretty outrageous because in this life, her soul doesn't remember what she was before. God tells in Quran that he would tell people where they were wrong.....this applies to even sectarians. The whole punishment coming from previous life is detrimental to society as demonstrated by India and China. Some hindus and buddhists say you should not help the poor or a person in danger because it means you are objecting God's intervention. That's pretty harsh way to look at things.

Now as for the 5 year old, I have come to realize that the problem is not God, but us humans. He has given us a brain. He has given us the power to understand what is good and wrong. He has given us hands and legs. He has taught us the meaning of unity. With all these resources available, we should be able to create a system where such thing should not happen. But we just don't do it, allowing innocent people to suffer.

Having no evidence for Gods or disproves of Gods, I turned into an atheist. There could be no Gods at all, or one God or many. I just have no evidence for any of those possibilities. Until the day I do, I refuse to believe in any of those possibilities.

I don't believe all atheists would go to hell and all. However, I am interested to know what kind of evidence of God are you looking for? What are the requirements you have established which would prove that he exists?

Thanks.

[Jafar]

I have been wondering about that for a while. I even asked the forum question about it. I do not truly reject incarnation, but saying that the 5 year old girl got raped because she probably was a rapist in her previous life is pretty outrageous because in this life, her soul doesn't remember what she was before.

Her body might not remember.. but her soul might..
There are things called "Past Life Regression" which I'm intrigued to try it myself..
And there are few quite convincing cases where one remember clearly about his/her past life..

Plus.. where is our 'memory' being stored is still a mystery up until now..
Apparently it might not be inside our 'brain'..

God tells in Quran that he would tell people where they were wrong.....this applies to even sectarians. The whole punishment coming from previous life is detrimental to society as demonstrated by India and China. Some hindus and buddhists say you should not help the poor or a person in danger because it means you are objecting God's intervention. That's pretty harsh way to look at things.

I never encountered any Hindus or Buddhist who said such things..
And the Buddhist DO NOT BELIEVE in any deity or God.. at least as understood by the western culture.

Within the framework of "Karma" if you don't help anyone during their time of needs.. then you will also not be getting any help during your time of needs. It doesn't matter whether it's widely believed or not.. as they believed the law of "Karma" is automatically enforced to those who believe or not believe in it. That's why they never enforced their belief to be believed by others. (Unlike those in the West)

The beauty of the "Eastern culture" is that they NEVER ENFORCED their belief upon others..
They never said "Those who do not believe in the law of Karma shall be tormented in hell for all eternity" or "their blood is eligible to be shed because they're the enemy of our deity or god".

Plus..
They also don't have any conception of "A Deity Writing A Book as such we need to consider it as Holy".
The conception of "Holy Book" ONLY EXIST IN THE WEST.. specifically SEMITIC CULTURE.

Started by the Ancient Egyptian with their Holy Book Of The Dead.
Continued by the Israelites with their holy Torah and Tanakh
Continued by the (Messianic) Jews with their holy Gospel.
Continued by the (Messianic) Jews + Arabs with their holy Quran.

[reel]

Her body might not remember.. but her soul might..
There are things called "Past Life Regression" which I'm intrigued to try it myself..
And there are few quite convincing cases where one remember clearly about his/her past life..

Count me in along with my sibling and fiance. In the last thread about atheism I was just pretending to be a shallow atheist, but truth is that the research I spoke about matches what I myself felt and the things I have heard and seen. I have good memory about my "baby" days. But there is one thing that struck me was me attempting to take the stairs and then suddenly falling down causing severe pain in my head. My servants screamed. That's all I remembered. According to the scene, I was some kind of an intolerant business person but with sense of responsibility. Back to baby days, when I was brought home I kept feeling suffocated because I knew it was not my address. It felt like demotion. Hurt ache got severe when I saw myself in the mirror. I thought I was an adult, but mirror said I was a baby. I felt trapped. For a while, I hated the people around me apparently because I thought they were too inferior for my taste except my dad. Like Stewi from family guy, I was disappointed to meet my new mom. I was suspicious of using things cheaper than what I umm normally used before falling down from the stairs. I considered them all dirty and things of the poor people. I toned down after some years and forgot all about it, but one thing that still remains with me is the fear of stairs. I always feel that I would have temporary blindness and that would cause me to fall down. I shiver sometimes when taking the stairs. Similarly, my fiance has unusual fear towards this bridge https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/San_Mateo-Hayward_Bridge-2edit.jpg He said he felt as if he once fell from it and also there is a community college which he believed he had been student of when he passed by it in the car at age 4 or 5.

The reason why I believed the research was correct was because it showed babies could remember their past life till age 5 and also that the cause of the death in their previous lives turned into phobia in their present ones.

I never encountered any Hindus or Buddhist who said such things..
And the Buddhist DO NOT BELIEVE in any deity or God.. at least as understood by the western culture.

You can go to India and interview people. One of my friends did. There are two kinds of buddhism. In one, multiple gods exist. I did provide the link to an interview from china where the residents were asked why they feared saving people from road accidents and that was one of their excuses. It is several pages away in this forum under my posts. So at this moment it is difficult for me to retrieve it.

Within the framework of "Karma" if you don't help anyone during their time of needs.. then you will also not be getting any help during your time of needs.

I don't know how exactly Buddhists view karma, but in hinduism, they have caste system which complicates the matter.

That's why they never enforced their belief to be believed by others. (Unlike those in the West)

They dont enforce belief, but they do kill those who are of other belief systems or do not agree with them similar to those hardcord blind people of Abrahamic religions http//www.newrepublic.com/article/116335/burma-massacre-muslims-ethnic-cleansing-has-just-escalated
As far as I know, next will be the christian community.

1970 Thai Monks It is not violation of buddhism to kill communists
2004 Thai monks were trained to become militant buddhists
Sinhala Buddhist Nationalists are known to persecute minorities
During WW2, Buddhist monks promoted the idea that it is okay for Japan to be violent to have a huge empire

The beauty of the "Eastern culture" is that they NEVER ENFORCED their belief upon others..

Except when it comes to dating maybe hmm

They also don't have any conception of "A Deity Writing A Book as such we need to consider it as Holy".

Why need a holybook when there are thousands of crazy superstitions to choose from?

Started by the Ancient Egyptian with their Holy Book Of The Dead.
Continued by the Israelites with their holy Torah and Tanakh
Continued by the (Messianic) Jews with their holy Gospel.
Continued by the (Messianic) Jews + Arabs with their holy Quran.

I don't know everything written in Torah and Gospel, but I do know Quran has helped me and took me by surprise several times for which to me it will always remain holy. I'll actually depend on one single book rather than
going to people with occult power to tell them to show me my path
believing that there is some kind of occult power in coin tossing for which I need to have blind faith in it
believing that my daughter's meat can heal my illness
thinking and waiting for some plant to bring me money and luck

peace

[Jafar]

Count me in along with my sibling and fiance. In the last thread about atheism I was just pretending to be a shallow atheist, but truth is that the research I spoke about matches what I myself felt and the things I have heard and seen. I have good memory about my "baby" days. But there is one thing that struck me was me attempting to take the stairs and then suddenly falling down causing severe pain in my head. My servants screamed. That's all I remembered. According to the scene, I was some kind of an intolerant business person but with sense of responsibility. Back to baby days, when I was brought home I kept feeling suffocated because I knew it was not my address. It felt like demotion. Hurt ache got severe when I saw myself in the mirror. I thought I was an adult, but mirror said I was a baby. I felt trapped. For a while, I hated the people around me apparently because I thought they were too inferior for my taste except my dad. Like Stewi from family guy, I was disappointed to meet my new mom. I was suspicious of using things cheaper than what I umm normally used before falling down from the stairs. I considered them all dirty and things of the poor people. I toned down after some years and forgot all about it, but one thing that still remains with me is the fear of stairs. I always feel that I would have temporary blindness and that would cause me to fall down. I shiver sometimes when taking the stairs. Similarly, my fiance has unusual fear towards this bridge https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/San_Mateo-Hayward_Bridge-2edit.jpg He said he felt as if he once fell from it and also there is a community college which he believed he had been student of when he passed by it in the car at age 4 or 5.

The reason why I believed the research was correct was because it showed babies could remember their past life till age 5 and also that the cause of the death in their previous lives turned into phobia in their present ones.

Intriguing.. but well one need to experience by him/her self in order to believe.
I'm still intrigued to do the "Past Life Regression" session myself..

You can go to India and interview people. One of my friends did. There are two kinds of buddhism. In one, multiple gods exist. I did provide the link to an interview from china where the residents were asked why they feared saving people from road accidents and that was one of their excuses. It is several pages away in this forum under my posts. So at this moment it is difficult for me to retrieve it.
I don't know how exactly Buddhists view karma, but in hinduism, they have caste system which complicates the matter.

There are millions kind of Buddhism.. as many as there are those who claimed to be buddhist.

And Caste system has nothing to do with Karma.. it's just yet another way for the noble and king to stay in power.
Sidharta during his life (or should I say his time on this earth?) opposed the Caste system.

They dont enforce belief, but they do kill those who are of other belief systems or do not agree with them similar to those hardcord blind people of Abrahamic religions http//www.newrepublic.com/article/116335/burma-massacre-muslims-ethnic-cleansing-has-just-escalated
As far as I know, next will be the christian community.

Driven by pure Myanmarese Nationalism and Ethno-Facism.
It has nothing to do with religion or 'belief'.
Rohingya has a long history to be once acted as the "imported agent of British Colonialist".. which started the resentment with the Myanmarese or should I say Baganese.. back in the 19th century.
But well I don't want to discuss Myanmar politics here..

It's similar to Myanmarese vs Thai conflict..
Or Turkish vs Arab conflict or Turkish vs Kurds conflict or Tibetans vs Han Chinese conflict..
In short it's an ethnicity conflict..

Rohingya is not the only ethnical conflict which are happening in Myanmar.. there are others.. although others didn't have the luxury of "international coverage" due to some reasons.. (where religion is again play part)

Here's the list
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_conflict_in_Myanmar

The western world doesn't care too much if it's Buddhist vs Buddhist..
Yet once it's Buddhist vs Christian or Buddhist vs Muslim.. (The westerner religion) they start to pay attention due to "shared identity" sentiment.

Except when it comes to dating maybe hmm
Why need a holybook when there are thousands of crazy superstitions to choose from?

Exactly... and writing down those thousands of crazy superstitions to a book and declare it as holy / coming from God is indeed an act of insanity.

I don't know everything written in Torah and Gospel, but I do know Quran has helped me and took me by surprise several times for which to me it will always remain holy. I'll actually depend on one single book rather than
going to people with occult power to tell them to show me my path

If the believe in Holy Book suits you then fine.. because it really doesn't matter anyway... it's your actual deed that matter..

Just to let you know that Billions of people on this earth still see the act of "Believing in a book as holy and God wrote a book" as "bizarre and strange".

As bizarre as when you see a cult who think that "God has written a software and such software is a holy software".
But well.... if such "holy software" really helped the life of such cult member then fine right?
As long as they don't enforce such belief to others or they start murdering or torturing people with their "holy software" as justification.

[reel]

Intriguing.. but well one need to experience by him/her self in order to believe.
I'm still intrigued to do the "Past Life Regression" session myself..

I am not aware of how past life regression goes. Let us know about the experience.

And Caste system has nothing to do with Karma.. it's just yet another way for the noble and king to stay in power.

In Hinduism, it is believed all evil people take their rebirth in lower caste.

Sidharta during his life (or should I say his time on this earth?) opposed the Caste system.

That is why, Buddhism was threat to hinduism.

Driven by pure Myanmarese Nationalism and Ethno-Facism.
It has nothing to do with religion or 'belief'.
Rohingya has a long history to be once acted as the "imported agent of British Colonialist".. which started the resentment with the Myanmarese or should I say Baganese.. back in the 19th century.

Migration is normal. Rohingya people weren't invaders. They were minorities anyways.

It's similar to Myanmarese vs Thai conflict..
Or Turkish vs Arab conflict or Turkish vs Kurds conflict or Tibetans vs Han Chinese conflict..
In short it's an ethnicity conflict..

But its monks who have been causing the problems.

Exactly... and writing down those thousands of crazy superstitions to a book and declare it as holy / coming from God is indeed an act of insanity.

Would love to see proof

If the believe in Holy Book suits you then fine.. because it really doesn't matter anyway... it's your actual deed that matter..

I can judge by deeds using the book though.

Just to let you know that Billions of people on this earth still see the act of "Believing in a book as holy and God wrote a book" as "bizarre and strange".

All those billions of people do not live inside me. So I do not care.

As bizarre as when you see a cult who think that "God has written a software and such software is a holy software".

If I don't read the book I would think that way. But I did.

But well.... if such "holy software" really helped the life of such cult member then fine right?

I don't see any problem with that.

As long as they don't enforce such belief to others or they start murdering or torturing people with their "holy software" as justification.

I don't see people of this forum forcing their belief on anyone. They are more about evidence and logic. I haven't heard of Quranists killing anyone for holy software.
Apparently, I was wrong about Buddhism not forcing their belief on anyone

Forced Conversion to Buddhism in Eastern Nagaland
http//www.burmalink.org/forced-conversion-buddhism-eastern-nagaland/

Christians forced to convert to Buddhism in rural Nepalese village
https//www.barnabasfund.org/news/Christians-forced-to-convert-to-Buddhism-in-rural-Nepalese-village

The worst countries for religious freedom

1. Burma 2. China 3. Eritrea 4. Iran 5. North Korea 6. Saudi 7. Sudan 8.Uzbekistan
   https//www.indexoncensorship.org/2014/01/worst-countries-religious-freedom/

peace

[Student_of_Allah]

Shalom Aleikhem Invalid,

A baby getting raped sounds tragic. A person murdered for no reason also sounds tragic. If GOD was to interfere, the rapist would not have raped and the murderer would not have murdered hence there would be no free will.

So, are you suggesting that your God would rather grant the rapist and murderer free will to rape and murder over suspending their free will so that innocents don't suffer? Here is the situation explained better

Situation A
-God does not intervene
-Woman is being raped against her will
-Her child is being murdered against his will
-Rapist gets to keep his free will to do evil
-Murder gets to keep his free will to do evil
-God then punishes the rapist and murder
-The woman remains raped and the child murdered

Situation B
-God DOES intervene
-Woman gets her will and therefore isn't raped
-Her child gets his will so doesn't get murdered
-Rapist doesn't get to rape
-Murder doesn't get to murder
-Nobody gets punished

In situation A, you have a woman raped, her child witnessing that rape and then the woman witnessing her child being murdered as she was being raped. That is then followed by the murderer and rapist being punished by God. No amount of punishment of the criminals will un-rape or un-murder the victims.

In contrast, Situation B is the best one and we already practice that. The good people do not have to suffer just so that we can let evil run rampant and exercise free will to cause harm to innocents.

If you had the means to stop it and came across a woman being raped while her son was being murdered, would you wait for that crime to happen then complain to the police to send the rapist and murderers to prison? Or would you be like me and stop it first even if it means that you will have to suspend the free will of the rapist and murderers? Whichever you decide, know that at least 2 people will lose their free will. If you choose not to intervene, the mom and son won't be victimized of their free will. They will be raped and murdered AGAINST their will.

The Quran speaks of the baby girls who were buried alive for no reason. On the day of resurrection, her killers will be asked for what reason was she murdered. Her killers will suffer for what their hands brought forth and go to hell for it. Did the baby girl deserve it? No. Did she do anything wrong? No. So why did it happen? Because God gave us free will and if you follow your instinct(Satan), you don't just destroy yourself, you also hurt other fellow humans.

See, this is exactly what I was talking about. Your God would rather first allow the crime to happen so that the victim suffers and then he can then go on to punish the criminals which doesn't make the crime not happen. I find that extremely disturbing and immoral.

I do not believe that there is anything devilish about our instincts. As far as I know, we have both good and evil instincts. Mindlessly going on instinct is highly irrational and can be really dangerous.

What I find the most baffling thing is that only in religion do we totally invert things. For example, we all understand that with great power comes great responsibility. The more power one has over things, the more responsible they are in general. However, when it comes to the most powerful being, he acts like the most irresponsible one. I mean, if I was standing there with a gun while my mother was being raped and brother being murdered and did nothing and only took the criminals to court afterward, people would not think highly of me. However, when you God, the all mighty one just stands there witnessing millions of murders and rapes so that the criminals can "exercise their free will", we praise that God and blame it all on the criminals.

I don't think that we really do have free will anyway. I can actually prove that. But that would have to be a separate topic, my friend.

You don't deserve anything from GOD and neither do I. Did you ask GOD to give you life, a pair of eyes, legs, arms, unlimited oxygen etc? You didn't and neither do you deserve them. Everything you have is out of GOD's mercy. GOD does not owe you anything, let alone your life. All bad stuff happens because of ourselves and the people around us. They chose to follow their instinct(Satan), misguide their offspring, cause corruption and bloodshed.
Do you blame GOD for all those misguided and lost Muslims? Their parents spread corruption and that is where it came from, Not GOD.

1. I disagree that God has no responsibility towards us. If I created beings that could feel things and are conscious, I wouldn't be a d*ck to them. I'd be respectful and try to help them out as much as I could and not just stand there watching the evil ones rape the innocents just so that I could punish them later.

2. God didn't owe us anything. However, once he ended up making us, the thing changes from that point onward. A nice entity would try to maximize well-being and a d*ck would toy around with these entities.

3. I do not blame God for what random Muslims do. I just blame him for allowing them to do evil in the first place.

And yes, if there was a tablet I could take to make sure I become incapable of doing evil ever, I'd take that tablet without ANY HESITATION. That is because I actually care about my actions and their consequences.

Peace
------------- Student of Allah

[Student_of_Allah]

Shalom Aleikhem reel,

I have been wondering about that for a while. I even asked the forum question about it. I do not truly reject incarnation, but saying that the 5 year old girl got raped because she probably was a rapist in her previous life is pretty outrageous because in this life, her soul doesn't remember what she was before. God tells in Quran that he would tell people where they were wrong.....this applies to even sectarians. The whole punishment coming from previous life is detrimental to society as demonstrated by India and China. Some hindus and buddhists say you should not help the poor or a person in danger because it means you are objecting God's intervention. That's pretty harsh way to look at things.

Yeah. That is seriously messed up. The problem I have with reincarnation justifying suffering is two folds

1. There is no evidence for it.
2. This one is actually a bigger problem If someone rapes me, should I just let them? I mean, I do deserve it then, don't I? Wouldn't a righteous person just let justice run it's course?

If we followed that kind of a philosophy, we'd all watch babies being raped and be like "SubhanAllah! Finally some justice!". That just is too sick and a hard one for me to swallow!

Now as for the 5 year old, I have come to realize that the problem is not God, but us humans. He has given us a brain. He has given us the power to understand what is good and wrong. He has given us hands and legs. He has taught us the meaning of unity. With all these resources available, we should be able to create a system where such thing should not happen. But we just don't do it, allowing innocent people to suffer.

God can do much more than I can with my hands. How come you don't expect him to intervene and stop the baby from being raped but would expect me to intervene and stop the baby from being raped? double standards much? Your God has infinite power, therefore infinite responsibility. Yet he clearly stays out of helping the weakest of the weak ones.

Sad! Very sad!

I don't believe all atheists would go to hell and all. However, I am interested to know what kind of evidence of God are you looking for? What are the requirements you have established which would prove that he exists?

• I never believed that we could ever tell who'd go to heaven and who wouldn't. Even when I was a muslim, I never actually believed that on average a Muslim girl has more chances of entering heaven than an atheist or a Jew.

• It's actually a tough thing you asked of me. No matter what God does, he must do something that is objectively verifiable. It cannot be a "feeling" or something I won't be able to double check using independent sources. I mean, it's tough because if he starts talking to me, I'll assume that I am either hallucinating or going crazy. That's not an unfair assumption to make as we do have people who hears all kinds of voices and are in mental institutions. So, he has to give me something more and solid.

Perhaps the best way to put would be to say that a God worth the title would know exactly what it would take to convince me

Peace
---------------- Student of Allah

[good_logic]

Peace Student Of Allah.

Nice to hear from you every now and then.

I read your posts . I see your logic, however for me there is "situation C"

Situation C
-GOD promised not to intervene until the predetermined day.
-GOD keeps His promise and will not intervene.

Let me just add,if GOD intervened, it will be a different world, a different creation,a different scenario...etc. A world with no hatred, no wars, no oppression,no murder,no...etc.

For me there is the looking forward to the day promised by GOD. The day when GOD will eventually intervene .
For the Atheist things will carry on as they are. A world with rape, murder,...i.e as follows
-Woman is being raped against her will
-Her child is being murdered against his will
-Rapist gets to keep his free will to do evil
-Murder gets to keep his free will to do evil...Unless man s justice prevails or not.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Student_of_Allah]

Shalom Aleikhem good logic,

Peace Student Of Allah.

Nice to hear from you every now and then.

It's good to hear from you too. Hope you are in good health and enjoying life.

I read your posts . I see your logic, however for me there is "situation C"

Situation C
-GOD promised not to intervene until the predetermined day.
-GOD keeps His promise and will not intervene.

Let me just add,if GOD intervened, it will be a different world, a different creation,a different scenario...etc. A world with no hatred, no wars, no oppression,no murder,no...etc.

It is not an entirely separate situation. You just gave one possible explanation for my situation A. Your reasoning is that God decided to not intervene because he promised us or to himself. Therefore he decided to stay out of it. The evil and irresponsible nature of that is not negated by the fact that he promised whoever. He knew what was going to happen and decided to stay out of it while having the power to not let evil happen like this. So my point still holds. Situation A still is a valid dilemma.

For me there is the looking forward to the day promised by GOD. The day when GOD will eventually intervene .
For the Atheist things will carry on as they are. A world with rape, murder,...i.e as follows
-Woman is being raped against her will
-Her child is being murdered against his will
-Rapist gets to keep his free will to do evil
-Murder gets to keep his free will to do evil...Unless man s justice prevails or not.

I get that you have some hope. However, your hope doesn't make it true. On top of that, you are making it sound like if I had the choice, I wouldn't bring evil to justice. It's not like I can press a button here and make evil people pay and I have decided for them to not pay and you have decided to make them pay. It's like you believing that Bill Gates will leave his wealth with you when he dies and being all smug about it while you tell me about you have that hope and I will be so much poor in comparison. P

On matters of principle, what bothers me more is that you are totally fine with God allowing evil to run rampant under his watch and punishing wrongdoers later when the victims have already been victimized. While I won't settle for anything less than him finally growing up and being responsible. By that, I am talking about stopping the rape of the mother and murder of the child before it happens. That is FAR MORE MORAL and rational to do then waiting until they have been raped and murdered for you to show off your super powers. Ever wondered what kind of an unreasonable and diabolical person SuperMan had to be if he did the same? Can you even imagine SuperMan waiting for a mother to be raped and her son to be murdered so that he can just sit back and watch and then later go after the criminals and torture them?

That my friend is what bothers me the most. It is really disturbing to me that any being would actually do that. Even more disturbing when I see others praising and worshiping such a being after knowing this.

And before anybody starts talking about "free will" again, please consider this God is supposed to already know exactly what will happen. Therefore he doesn't need to test anything. Especially when innocents will suffer as a result. For example, if you had 100% confidence that locking up criminal X with your mom in a prison cell will mean that he will rape your mother, will you knowingly lock her up with that criminal? Your God would! He would knowingly arrange that rape and sit back and watch and then go after the rapist. That is beyond disturbing to me.

Peace
------------- Student of Allah

[good_logic]

Peace Student of Allah.

Humans make their own decisions.

No,no no!!! You cannot have it both ways. Humans making their own decisions and GOD intervening to stop them?

Whether the woman is raped or the child is murdered or whatever bad happens... If GOD intervened with one bad thing HE( No gender) will intervene with all the bad things in this life.

Hence GOD will force people to stop making bad decisions!!!! i.e stopping humans to live this life?

Whatever happens will happen due to humans making good or bad decisions until GOD intervenes .like promised, Until GOD stops this life altogether. Another new way/life/dimension will have another set of rules/criteria...etc.

We find ourselves "humans" and we have no choice but to live this life making our own decisions. Good or bad. If women get raped or children get murdered or...because of the decisions humans are making ,GOD will not intervene yet.

GOD the Creator chooses and decides when to intervene or not according to HIS knowledge which is beyond our capacity to comprehend.GOD said intervention happens on the day of judgement.That is when it will happen. GOD has the ultimate knowledge and we have to trust and have confidence in HIM.

Whatever happened,is happening and will happen through this life is the outcome of the "human" decision making .

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[imrankhawaja]

Peace Student Of Allah.

Nice to hear from you every now and then.

I read your posts . I see your logic, however for me there is "situation C"

Situation C
-GOD promised not to intervene until the predetermined day.
-GOD keeps His promise and will not intervene.

Let me just add,if GOD intervened, it will be a different world, a different creation,a different scenario...etc. A world with no hatred, no wars, no oppression,no murder,no...etc.

For me there is the looking forward to the day promised by GOD. The day when GOD will eventually intervene .
For the Atheist things will carry on as they are. A world with rape, murder,...i.e as follows
-Woman is being raped against her will
-Her child is being murdered against his will
-Rapist gets to keep his free will to do evil
-Murder gets to keep his free will to do evil...Unless man s justice prevails or not.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

exactly situation c ,,there is only one way out from earth to heaven/hell till judgement day... and that's y everybody will be judged in proper way what they deserve,, this time non believers and believers didn't remember they made a choice ,,, but on judgement day their memory will come back and they will ,, cry like beggars ,,,but that time ,,nobody can save them from law from police from court,,,from jail... here in this world we are spending low life ,, so this worldly justice is not sure everywhere,,, that's how nature is testing us,,

anybody imagine person like hitler kill millions of jews will be forgiven,,, dnt you think somebodyz watching you day and night...l