Is Qur'an Alone the Last Step Before Leaving Islam Completely?
-
I think what Taro Hiroshi is trying to say is that out of all sectarians, the Western sectarians are closer to Quranic principles than Islamic sectarians. I'm sure all of us here would have our heads chopped off or hanged/stoned/beaten/burned to death if we lived in an Islamic country. That isn't the case here.
The truth does not need to be protected with bloodshed,misogyny and fear. Murdering someone just because they disagree with you goes to show the kind of person/society you really are. Islam has exposed itself for what it truly is. -
I think what Taro Hiroshi is trying to say is that out of all sectarians, the Western sectarians are closer to Quranic principles than Islamic sectarians.
I think many western countries (e.g. Ireland, Germany and Belgium) are closer to Quranic principles than eastern countries. But I also acknowledge the fact that there are a few eastern countries that are very close to Quranic principles (e.g. Japan, South Korea and Taiwan). The few eastern countries (e.g. Japan, South Korea and Taiwan) that are close to Quranic principles, are probably as close to Quranic principles as the western countries (e.g. Ireland, Germany and Belgium) that are close to Quranic principles.
-
some important things of life,,,, taking breath..,,provider by ( air ,atmosphere,oxygen)
food and drink ,,provided,by ,(rain , dust, sunlight, water)
that's how everybody look think and live their life,,,
they need to worship air oxygen,, sun,, rain,, water.. enna,, they are providing them life...that's called a little knowledge of life/low life/ unadvance life/ life with limits/ hidden from human eye...
whatever you say... but definitely that will lead you towards atheism,,,
but when you go behind the reason,, and ponder over these things that Allah mention in holy book ,,, then you look things by different angles...and that makes you believer..
think about the breath you take again,,,, just one single breath u need oxygen,,,
now think about oxygen... discovered in 1774 ,, have atomic properties, atomic numbers,, classified things which an eye cant see... a lot of other things,,, somebody must perfected it,,, that what scientists said about it...
they didn't have this question,,, never they had in past,,, neither in present,,, in future I m not sure depend on the technology from which they can grasp an image of ALLAH,,, but I m sure ,,, no eye can grasp the image on Allah.. they can only see these signs and created things ,,,which already perfected for them.. but they are not bother to accept it.now come on water ,,, every child know what is water ,, how important is it,,, etc
h2o ... two particles of hydrogen and one of oxygen. every living thing.. that's what scientists are saying depends on water,,, animals and plants both... Allah mention in quran ,, we sent it down to earth for the creation ,,, it plays an imp role( big discovery from water is electricity)...if we see things like that we will find a way out that a develop this b,, and then ab develop c ,, and abc develop d,,, and go on,,, but this theory called something from something,,,,
come on the advance level of science and tell me who is the one ,, who can create things from nothing...
nobody will gona believe that actually can happen... but it did happen,, its other thing that we dnt have knowledge at that level to figure out the science of something from nothing,,,
same in religion,,, people who claim themselves muslim, God Alone, Quran Alone , submitter, whatever he need to improve his understanding of natural reactions and phenomena to observe atleast little part of this observed universe...
so when they tired they start disbelieving...
if a cannot make b,,, we will not think about c...or we will assume that c didn't exist...or proved us c exist,,, that how they get satisfied...first of all they cannot make b,,, ( not a scientist in this whole world can claim to create anything with nothing)...
so they decided not to believe in c....as c cannot be created... hahaha
they need to accept as a human being(limitied knowledge) ... that we are unable to go beyond limtits and we need an eye to see that c exist ..and we need power over things to create visible thing from invisible things.. both we dnt have so lets find easy way out I disbelieve,,,
but do you think it will change the truth of nature ,,, or logic of reasoning...
-
Shalom Aleikhem,
I don't know who the 3 atheists are that the OP talked about. Kinda interested to know. I don't frequent the forum as much these days, so I doubt if I am one of them.
I do think that Qur'an Alone is kinda sorta the last step before leaving Islam. However, I am also skeptical of this belief. The reason being that I know many ex-muslims who left Islam without ever even coming across this interpretation of it. So perhaps I'm wrong in that belief.
I think a very important thing we are missing out here is that Qur'an aloners are like the most peaceful and tolerant bunches of Muslims out there. For example, in which other school of Islam do you get to discuss the possibility of pork being halal? Contact prayers not being prayers, hajj not being pilgrimage, sex before marriage being fine, homosexuality being fine? That just goes on to show just how much more tolerant this group is. I believe that it is this tolerance that makes it possible for people like us, ex-muslims, to feel comfortable in still coming back and engaging in discussions and dialogues. We don't have to fear for our lives in sites like this one whereas the traditionalist Islamic forums are full of censorship and crazy people. I think that could be one reason why you feel like there are more Qur'an aloners becoming atheists than regular muslims.
Peace
-------------- Student of Allahare you trying to say ,,, that what quran aloners said or believe...
-
I think many western countries (e.g. Ireland, Germany and Belgium) are closer to Quranic principles than eastern countries. But I also acknowledge the fact that there are a few eastern countries that are very close to Quranic principles (e.g. Japan, South Korea and Taiwan). The few eastern countries (e.g. Japan, South Korea and Taiwan) that are close to Quranic principles, are probably as close to Quranic principles as the western countries (e.g. Ireland, Germany and Belgium) that are close to Quranic principles.
I think you can't lump countries into an 'Eastern' and 'Western' bunch like that, because you certainly can't lump Middle Eastern and East Asian countries together as the foundation of their ideologies are so different, more different than 'Western' and 'Middle Eastern' countries.
When I use the term 'West' I'm specifically referring to America, the UK and North & Western Europe (i.e. France, Germany, Netherlands etc.), most of the E.U. could not be considered western in the slightest and the culture resembles moreso of pre-War middle eastern nations like Syria and Iraq, I'll use examples of countries like Romania, Greece and especially Southern Italy.
Let's see a quick overview of some Quranic principles vis a vis Western principles
Qur'an & Torah - Gays are evil and should be killed, West - Gays are fine and should be tolerated
Quran & Torah - Theives should have their hands cut off or treated severely, West - much less severe
Quran & Torah - Insulting your parents is a special type of rebellion which should be punished severely, West - Leave them kids alone man!
Quran & Torah - Women should be modest and covering their heads esp in religious matters, West - bikinis and nakedness everywhereI'm sorry guys but the notion that the West follows Quranic or Bibblical principles closer than Muslim countries is ludicrous, and only passes without laughter in a place like here because people are willfully mistranslating verses such as cutting off hands etc.
-
Shalom Aleikhem,
For me quranism was the last step before leaving Islam. I consider myself an apostate. To me a divine Quran is really a joke. A divine revelation to Muhammad, I find no trace of. Islam to me is a evolved version of the crazy messianist faith of the judeonazarenes who were expecting the end of times and considered themselves to be the only true believers. Much of the latter can still be detected in modern day muslim behaviour.
Clears throat
REALLY?????????????????????
ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?!!!?
You must understand why I am saying whatever I am saying.
I still believe in God however. I just don't think God would express "Him"self in the format we find in the Quran.
Qur'an being a joke surely doesn't mean that there can't be a God.
I'm glad that someone said it! The method of communicating something so vital to humanity is laughable to express politely.
I do. But it would absurd to keep calling myself Muslim when there are no common denominators left outside the belief in the One God.
Just curious, of all the possibilities, why or how did you come to the very precise conclusion that there is ONE God?
Peace
------------- Student of Allah -
Dear Osman,
Have you actually read The Quran? It seems to me you are thinking of aspects of Traditional Islam.
Let's see a quick overview of some Quranic principles vis a vis Western principles
Qur'an & Torah - Gays are evil and should be killed, West - Gays are fine and should be tolerated
Quran & Torah - Theives should have their hands cut off or treated severely, West - much less severe
Quran & Torah - Insulting your parents is a special type of rebellion which should be punished severely, West - Leave them kids alone man!
Quran & Torah - Women should be modest and covering their heads esp in religious matters, West - bikinis and nakedness everywhereI'm sorry guys but the notion that the West follows Quranic or Bibblical principles closer than Muslim countries is ludicrous, and only passes without laughter in a place like here because people are willfully mistranslating verses such as cutting off hands etc.
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/islam-homosexuality.htm
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm
And there is no punishment in Quran for verbally insulting others.
-
I think you can't lump countries into an 'Eastern' and 'Western' bunch like that, because you certainly can't lump Middle Eastern and East Asian countries together as the foundation of their ideologies are so different, more different than 'Western' and 'Middle Eastern' countries.
When I use the term 'West' I'm specifically referring to America, the UK and North & Western Europe (i.e. France, Germany, Netherlands etc.), most of the E.U. could not be considered western in the slightest and the culture resembles moreso of pre-War middle eastern nations like Syria and Iraq, I'll use examples of countries like Romania, Greece and especially Southern Italy.
Middle East is certainly part of the WEST.
All the insanity of the west originated in "middle east" region
(i.e. Holy rituals, Holy religion, Holy books, Intolerance towards other religion, Fighting for your God, Fighting for your religion, Angry God, Human like God etc..)When I use the term WEST I'm referring to Mediterranean region and it's surrounding + Northern America
Let's see a quick overview of some Quranic principles vis a vis Western principles
Qur'an & Torah - Gays are evil and should be killed, West - Gays are fine and should be tolerated
Quran & Torah - Theives should have their hands cut off or treated severely, West - much less severe
Quran & Torah - Insulting your parents is a special type of rebellion which should be punished severely, West - Leave them kids alone man!
Quran & Torah - Women should be modest and covering their heads esp in religious matters, West - bikinis and nakedness everywhereLet's see a quick overview of some WESTERN principles vis a vis EASTERN principles
WEST - Gays are evil and should be killed, EAST - Gays are fine and should be tolerated
WEST - Theives should have their hands cut off or treated severely, EAST - much less severe
WEST - Insulting your parents is a special type of rebellion which should be punished severely, EAST - Beat your kid if they failed to get an A on school.
WEST - Women should be modest and covering their heads esp in religious matters, EAST - head covering? what the heck is that? some even go fully naked (Papua New Guinea, Polynesian islands)
WEST - Those who don't accept X as a holy book and authored by God must be put to death, EAST - Holy Book??? Authored by God?? You are joking right???
WEST - You must not do X, it's an act of heresy, you will be condemned for all eternity in hell!, EAST - You will get what you deserve, if it's not in this life then you'll get it on your next incarnation.
WEST - Belief is important, you must truly believe X as divine, EAST - Deed is important, belief doesn't really matter -
Peace Jafar,
Middle East is certainly part of the WEST.
All the insanity of the west originated in "middle east" region
(i.e. Holy rituals, Holy religion, Holy books, Intolerance towards other religion, Fighting for your God, Fighting for your religion, Angry God, Human like God etc..)When I use the term WEST I'm referring to Mediterranean region and it's surrounding + Northern America
Yes you are correct - on a broad scale in the sense that the modern West owes everything it has to the writing, religion and philosophy of the Eastern Mediteranean.
When drilling down further and referring specifically to the Anglo-Saxon-Nordic modern idea of 'the West' however, we can contrast secular countries with muslim and orthodox nations.
Let's see a quick overview of some WESTERN principles vis a vis EASTERN principles
WEST - Gays are evil and should be killed, EAST - Gays are fine and should be tolerated
WEST - Theives should have their hands cut off or treated severely, EAST - much less severe
WEST - Insulting your parents is a special type of rebellion which should be punished severely, EAST - Beat your kid if they failed to get an A on school.
WEST - Women should be modest and covering their heads esp in religious matters, EAST - head covering? what the heck is that? some even go fully naked (Papua New Guinea, Polynesian islands)
WEST - Those who don't accept X as a holy book and authored by God must be put to death, EAST - Holy Book??? Authored by God?? You are joking right???
WEST - You must not do X, it's an act of heresy, you will be condemned for all eternity in hell!, EAST - You will get what you deserve, if it's not in this life then you'll get it on your next incarnation.
WEST - Belief is important, you must truly believe X as divine, EAST - Deed is important, belief doesn't really matterAgain, you need to define what 'West' and what 'East' you are referring to.
Don't blame "Quran Alone" for the phenomenon of people leaving Islam.
No one is assigning blame here, I'm curious as to why this community and others like it haven't grown in the last decade or two and I suspect its because a lot of former members have completely left Islam of whatever sect.
Also, to avoid confusion, I'm not saying Quran alone is the only step before leaving Islam for all apostates, some people here have already mentioned they completely skipped this step.
I suspect that for most who frequent places like this, Quran alone is a step before complete apostasy. And that's not saying anything about Quran alone, like (Wakas?) said, the Quran states that the majority of humanity will be rejecters anyway.
There's a lot of defensiveness floating around this topic - the issue is not whether 'Quran Alone' whatever we may define that to be is wrong and that's why people leave. The question is what is becoming of so many people who used to be here and whether this is related to a possible fact that it is a last stepping stone before full apostasy for some and not for others.
-
Let's see a quick overview of some WESTERN principles vis a vis EASTERN principles
Again, you need to define what 'West' and what 'East' you are referring to.West = Abrahamic religion (although the name itself is misleading because Abraham never invented any religion during his lifetime)
East = Dharmic religion (From the sanskrit word "Dharma" which means "Deed", the 'ism' where deed is more important than 'belief' or 'assumption'.Henceforth we can further simplify to
West = Belief based religion
East = Deed based religion/It used to be like this
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Eastern_World.PNG/550px-Eastern_World.PNG
Where the coloured region is the "East" / "Dharmic influenced region".
But due to massive and rampart colonisation by the WEST towards the EAST.
Including but not limited to British, French, Spaniard, Portuguese, Dutch colonization, Mongol and Mughal empire's invasion and evangelism, active evangelism by modern western clerics, imam and priest, it has now become more or less like thishttps//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Abraham_Dharma.png/500px-Abraham_Dharma.png
The degree of "easterness" is marked as yellow, while the degree of "westerness" is marked by magenta.
-
I personally realise one thing about atheist ,, there is an virus in their mind that is hiding truth from them ,,, I sometime feel sympathy for them becoz atleast they are not blind believers,, they think ,, listen and then decide not to believe.. by their illogical reason,,, thay want to find god but they coudnt,, they want to talk with god but they cant,,, Allah is far behinf their approach ,, they didn't understand this thing,,, because they simply didn't believe in god,,, but their problem is comes when they claim ,,,
there is no god
there claim is baseless ,,, because they really don't know the definition of god...
how can you say there is no god ,,, even if you know ,,, or dnt know the definition of god ,,, but you must know what we are claiming is not true god...
ok I ask same question to atheist... how can you prove our god is not the creator ,,, whereas he created everything whatever we know and some recent discoveries... predictions,,, past histories of nations,,, system of child birth in detail,,, water cycle,,,, lot of other things,,,
if it is not from God ,,, how come these are so sure and accurate till date,,, do u have answer of this @studnt of Allah
-
West = Abrahamic religion (although the name itself is misleading because Abraham never invented any religion during his lifetime)
East = Dharmic religion (From the sanskrit word "Dharma" which means "Deed", the 'ism' where deed is more important than 'belief' or 'assumption'.Henceforth we can further simplify to
West = Belief based religion
East = Deed based religion/It used to be like this
https//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Eastern_World.PNG/550px-Eastern_World.PNG
Where the coloured region is the "East" / "Dharmic influenced region".
But due to massive and rampart colonisation by the WEST towards the EAST.
Including but not limited to British, French, Spaniard, Portuguese, Dutch colonization, Mongol and Mughal empire's invasion and evangelism, active evangelism by modern western clerics, imam and priest, it has now become more or less like thishttps//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Abraham_Dharma.png/500px-Abraham_Dharma.png
The degree of "easterness" is marked as yellow, while the degree of "westerness" is marked by magenta.
So you're referring specifically to Eastern vs. Western religions.
Yes I've seen this map before - it doesn't show the historical impact of Christianity and Islam in China, because China is listed as such a large territory, but if it did, that Yellow bit would be even smaller with the vast area of Xinjiang in the West o
-
So you're referring specifically to Eastern vs. Western religions.
Yes I've seen this map before - it doesn't show the historical impact of Christianity and Islam in China, because China is listed as such a large territory, but if it did, that Yellow bit would be even smaller with the vast area of Xinjiang in the West o
The term of "religion" to the the easterner cultural system is actually incorrect.
I wouldn't call Buddhism as a religion (for example).
That's why there are million forms of Buddhism..Having said that.. the trend is "reversed" now..
As human is getting smarter and critical thinking becoming a 'norm'.
The "easterner culture" has regained momentum and known as "secular / non religious movement" in the "West".Example The nonreligious is rapidly rising in the US
http//www.pewforum.org/files/2015/05/PF_15.05.05_RLS2_1_310px.pngPlease do not give credit to the "West" for "secularism"..
For the westerners "secularism" is new, while for the easterners they've been practicing and living secularism for thousand of years.A Chinese friend once said to me
"The problem of our country is that we don't have a religion".
I said to him
"You should count that as a blessing, it's not a problem at all, if you have a religion then definitely you will have more problems". -
Dear Osman,
Have you actually read The Quran? It seems to me you are thinking of aspects of Traditional Islam.
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/islam-homosexuality.htm
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm
And there is no punishment in Quran for verbally insulting others.
No response Osman?
Will you correct yourself?
-
No response Osman?
Will you correct yourself?
I will of course endeavour to 'correct myself' in order to rise to your lofty station Wakas. Ok then, my response
On the Issue of Homosexuality
Background Some think that in Islam homosexuals (gays and lesbians) must be put to death or The Quran sets out punishments for being homosexual.
The practice of homosexuality by the people of Lot is discussed in the following verses of The Quran . In verses 1177-81 and 2929 it is made clear that along with public practice of homosexuality, they also engaged in aggressive tactics/crimes and had a corrupting nature/influence on their society, and the people of Lot suffered punishment from God because of this.
In The Quran marriage is only possible between man and woman, and any sex or lewd acts out with marriage by anyone (i.e. not only homosexuals) are considered punishable offences and if proven in a society governed by The Quran's laws, a penalty can be administered by such a society . There is no death penalty. It is important to note The Quran does not stipulate any penalty for simply being homosexual.All this does is stresses my original point even further, that Muslim countries do indeed follow the Quran/Islam better than the West. Openly lewd acts are rampant in the West, they are not in Muslim countries. And this page isn't disproving anything - it is a FACT that God in the Quran and Bible hates homosexuality
Quran 780-81
And Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds? Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."It doesn't get any clearer than this Wakas.
On the Issue of Amputating Thieves
Quran 538
the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent from Allah . And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.Again, very clear and your link does nothing except tiptoe around the issue. It mentions the usual apologetics piece that in an Islamic society there wouldn't be any hunger anyway etc. etc. Even if we cede to a metaphorical understanding on this one in the context of the sub-discussion "Is the West more 'Islamic' than Muslim countires" - it undoubtedly stands that muslim countries have harsher laws for theft even though most don't enforce the amputation rule.
On the Issue of Dress Code for Women
Honestly??? Are you for real Wakas? You mean to tell me the West follows Gods laws for dress code more closely than Muslim countries?
Get real.
-
Osman,
You seem to be under the impression that I/others will fall for your obvious attempt at changing your argument and your woeful lack of Quranic evidence.You said, highlight mine
Qur'an = Gays are evil and should be killedYou cited no evidence whatsoever, and changed your stance to "it is a FACT that God in the Quran and Bible hates homosexuality"
Quran = Theives should have their hands cut off or treated severely
You cited no counter argument whatsoever to my linked article, and changed your stance to how "Muslim" countries have harsher laws. At least you half-admitted a "metaphorical" translation is possible.
Quran = Insulting your parents is a special type of rebellion which should be punished severely
You cited no Quranic evidence whatsoever, and were in fact completely silent.
Quran = Women should be modest and covering their heads esp in religious matters
You cited no Quranic evidence whatsoever, and changed your questioning to "You mean to tell me the West follows Gods laws for dress code more closely than Muslim countries?" This question is irrelevant to what I pointed out.
I simply asked for Quranic evidence for your statements about Quran.
What's wrong Osman - cant stand the heat once you are exposed? It's ok, I only expect sincere truthseekers to correct themselves.
-
You seem to be under the impression that I/others will fall for your obvious attempt at changing your argument and your woeful lack of Quranic evidence
not just that...appears there's some bee in the bonnet regarding this forum (primarily? are there others? which ones?) being the last straw before people run headlong into the arms of utter darkness. So many have all gone rogue...not like they had anything better to do than to stick around in the past 10 years or so but had to have run headlong into the arms of utter darkness. Perhaps, they created a new community under the flat side of the earth where it's always dark...and comfy. And that there was a 'mass exodus' of users at some point which is kinda surprising since I've been here long enough to be considered a Belle ?poque vampire...guess we recall history differently. Oh yeah and that so many users were trying (some still are apparently) to find guidance but found only the land of confusion and have been cursing Phil Collins ever since...There is some passive aggressiveness going on here...
-
Peace s c.
I fail to understand this logic of some folk !!!
I am an "oldie" therefore I "know better"...In my days everything was rosy and hunckydory...everyone was brilliant at....Things were better and....
Now ,to my best knowledge(,and I am only human,like the oldies,the newbies,the...) there is good ,bad and indifferent in all "generations" of the forum.
There are good or bad or ugly people in the oldies the newbies and... You sometimes do not know who is who or who becomes who?
That is what a forum was,is and will be. A mixture of all people. Some are claiming this ,that and the other... So read,enjoy ,loathe,skip,... live and let live...But follow the rules.
Happy chatting/discussing/debating/arguing/...Folks.
And stay, leave, believe, disbelieve, change,....But most importantly ENJOY.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
hey gl,
well at least the music preferences haven't come out yet... "in my day, kids listened to actual music, it was a time of vibrant rejoicing and woodmudstocking love, most now have all run headlong into the devil arms of Miley Cyrus and Bieber and it was Creed that was the last step!" (maybe Nickelback? I should start a thread about it)
