Answering Difficult Questions From Atheists

Student_of_Allah

Shalom Aleikhem good logic,

I get your point. I also can clearly see from your posts that

1-- You do not "really" know who you are. or Why you are here as a human.

Not sure what to say or what to make of that kind of questioning. I know who I am. I am a fellow homosapien. I am not that much interested in the "really" bit. The reason isn't intellectual laziness. The reason is because of the fact that I understand subjectivity. I can mean the world to someone and nothing to someone else. I can be just an animal from one perspective, yet someone really important from another. I can be just matter from a perspective or a talented poet from another. It all depends on the observer. So I cannot comment on questions that presupposes the existence of some sort of ultimate reality I guess. The very concept of an ultimate reality doesn't make any sense to me as I know that reality is but the function of what is perceived by an observer.

But yes, we do have common grounds that we often refer to as "reality". Another name for it would be universe/existence I suppose.

Why am I here as a human? How about you have a look at this

http//johnbokma.com/mexit/2006/07/04/dry-riverbed.jpg

Now if you take me to that place and ask me WHY is that place there as a dry river bed, what am I to say? All I can say is that it looks like flowing water curved it's path through the soil and eroded it. For reasons unknown to me, that river system is no longer functional. Therefore it's a dry river bed. That is why the dry river bed is there, because it can't exactly walk away.

Same goes for the question about "why I am here as a human". I am a human because I exist due to causal factors such as biological reproduction between other human beings. Or are you asking a different question? Perhaps you are invoking some kind of a purpose? To ask me that kind of a question, you must first prove to me that there is a purpose beyond the physical forces giving rise to chemistry and therefore ultimately giving rise to biological creatures that brought me forth into this world. Without first proving that, it's like asking me "What did Jesus plan for you?". First you must demonstrate that Jesus does sit there planning stuff for people. Without that, we cannot even begin to have a discussion on that.

2 Who GOD is . For what purpose this earth and this universe were created.

I swear I have never met God. I don't even know what that is. Various religions and their followers have proposed countless models of God to me though. Some have said that existence is god. In that case I am a believer in existence therefore a believer in God. Others have suggested that God is some sort of a creative being that originated the universe or existence. For that I have no evidence. Therefore I don't bother investigating into his nature even before I know if he exists or not. It'd be like wasting my life investigating the aerodynamic properties of the left wing of a fairy when I don't even have evidence that fairies exist in the first place. What kind of diet would a fairy love? I have answer to that question and don't care because I don't even have evidence for fairies existing in the first place. I'll dig deeper once the basic premise has been proven. That is to say, their existence is proven to me.
As I've said before, I cannot just assume "purpose" and start from there. I can discuss the causal factors that led to the current state of this planet and the universe. I cannot tell you anything beyond that for that would be outside my knowledge.

Are you aware of the "Heavenly feud" that took place before this creation?

Humor (you may ignore) A heavenly feud before the heavens were created? Really? P

No, I have no knowledge of that. From our combined effort as a species over thousands of years, we have managed to work our way back to a singularity. We know that the singularity expanded and condensed into the universe we reside in. However, we have no clue about what was before that singularity or if the temporal word "before" even means anything when time itself was not existent. When I cannot tell you anything about even that bit, how can you expect me to even know about a feud between who knows what beyond that singularity?

Are you aware of the covenant you took with your creator before being brought through the reproduction system as a human to this life?

No clue. My parents created me. But I doubt you are referring to that. You are probably referring to some sort of a contract between me and the God for which I still have no evidence. If I was aware of a contract, would I not be already a believer in it's existence?

I am not the least bit interested in discussing things like that without first having a reason to believe that the being exists in the first place. Why signed what contract and where and how are all irrelevant before we establish that AT LEAST the parties involved all exist!

The world is divinely designed to manifest our decision to uphold either God's absolute authority, or Satan's idolatrous views .

I realize that you believe that. However, please try to understand the difference between your belief and what is factually accurate and actually true. You could be right, so could the other theists who claim totally different things, then again all of you could be wrong too! How am I to tell the difference? Evidence. Without you proving your words to me, there is no point in going into expositions.

It is a battle ground of "Good v Evil". The battle must be waged with casualties.fair or unfair...

Same as above.

Out of Mercy ,GOD is offering you this second chance.

Nah, not really. Even if I bought into your beliefs, I could still demonstrate to you that he isn't offering anybody anything. An all knowing and future seeing being already knew even before creating anything how things would end. So he created Christopher Hitchens knowing that he'd die as an atheist, didn't he? He knew that no matter what the does, he will finally die as an atheist. So free will goes out the window. Free will doesn't count for anything when the creator and judge already knew the outcome. Due to having ALL POWER, your could have created a universe where Christopher Hitchens dies as a good muslim. But out of the infinite possibilities that could have been, your God CHOSE to make the universe where the story of Hitchens ends as a dead atheist. So all these talk about offers, pledges, free-will are jokes for one who is willing to take a step back and analyse further.

If you are still not convinced, how about I offer you this example I created conscious robots with free will. Before creating them, due to my flawless and superior intellect, I KNEW FOR A CERTAINTY that they'd go use their free will to kill your family. When the robots kill your family, wouldn't you put the blame partly on me? Yes, the robots did it out of their free will. Yes I told them not to kill anyone. Yet, you'd know that I KNEW FOR A FACT that they'd never listen to me and WOULD CERTAINLY slaughter your family. I know you'd take me to court if you could prove that I knowingly created those robots who I knew would kill your family. You'd argue the same as I am argue here "The free wills of the robots get negated by the fact that the maker already knew that they WILL kill my parents". If you ask me, I'd put more blame on the creator of those robots than the robots. The creator could have made infinite number of other robots who wouldn't ever do that. But HE CHOSE to create the ones that will surely slaughter your family.

The point of me going into such detail is just so that you get an idea of where I am coming from.

There are those who are born dead. There are those whose lives are cut short in their infancy. There are those who are oppressed. There are those who are raped. there are those who....GOD knows about them. I trust and have confidence in my Creator that He knows what is happening. He says our predetermined life is what we get . He has also given us clear instructions how to seek His help and protection in this life. Yes those who make the decision to believe HIM and in HIM will get His help and protection along with their siblings.

See, that's exactly what I was talking about. It's like the writer of a story being mad at someone in the story and despising them to the point that the writer chooses to torture that person for doing exactly what he wrote for that person to do.

I know that the most common defense to that is that "No! He didn't write that bit. He gave us free will and we write ourselves.". To which my response is, please scroll up and read the thing I said about creating robots with free will who you know in advance will be evil. You will be able to tell how the writer is the one to blame more than what the supposedly beings with "free-will" did.

How long is 100 years, 50 years, 20 or ten years zero years.... GOD has the ultimate knowledge and ,in HIS message he is saying to you,me and everyone to believe and do good in this life to benefit in this life and in the real life that follows (Infinity) . But you can also choose to do bad/evil/....

Think about it! You have already, like the rest of us humans, "doubted" GOD is the only authority in His kingdom/creations and wanted to make your own decision /choice . GOD is giving you this last chance to make the right decision. He has promised to let you,me and everyone else decide.

This sounds very dark. Can you please confirm what you mean by "last chance"? Do you mean that this life is the only chance I will get? or do you mean that if I don't accept God right now right here, you will kill me and I will have no chance left?

I never got that pissed of mullah vibe from you, so I just want to be sure.

Peace
-------------- Student of Allah

good_logic

Peace Student of Allah.

Now we are getting somewhere. we are at opposing ends We are" two parallel lines".

So unless one of us changes direction/course or both of us change direction/course, we will carry on this " battle".

I appreciate and welcome your "continuous search". I also welcome your request for evidence. During the course of our conversation I may share with you "my evidence" but I must warn you that it may not satisfy your request .. Why?

Because like I said before if we travel at two parallel lines ,what you want as evidence and what I have for evidence are never going to "meet", "your evidence" will be different to mine

For me ,as a believer ,the evidence you might be looking for as an Atheist will not be shown to you until the "promised day"
2521
Those who do not expect to meet us said, "If only the angels could come down to us, or we could see our Lord (we would then believe)!" Indeed, they have committed a gross arrogance, and have produced a gross blasphemy.
2522
The day they see the angels( or GOD), it will not be good news for the guilty; they will say, "Now, we are irreversibly confined."

Yes ,you might mention "Scientific facts" ...etc. This world with its laws and Scientific facts will not "show GOD" or other dimensions no matter how advanced or ...We become.
Let me confirm for you that I follow and have a lot of interest in Science. I also want to "prove all things" if possible.

Notice I said "believer" I mean I have other evidence like "Mathematics" in the universe and the message. GOD s signature on HIS creations.I will gladly share that part with you.

For now I am certain and satisfied with my evidence .

But I am reading and listening to your take on things.
So far we remain "Opposites"?

You have asked,quote
This sounds very dark. Can you please confirm what you mean by "last chance"? Do you mean that this life is the only chance I will get? or do you mean that if I don't accept God right now right here, you will kill me and I will have no chance left?

I understand from GOD s message that this life is our "last chance" to redeem ourselves back to GOD s kingdom. I was talking in general about "us humans" not you in particular. I am also one of you.That is "my understanding.
As far as I am concerned you are "safe and free " to do as you please, I am no one s advocate or judge.

Looking forward to continue this conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

unknownuser

ok you are not atheist,,, but you are blind,,, because you didn't check the brackets,,, or if u checked it then I think,,, you didn't understand it ,,, same in hard questions of math some students didn't understand the full meanings of brackets,,,,
ok I m going to explain for you,,, the brackets of my words,,,, the one who believe in Allah ,,, its mean he believes what Allah command him or not command him to do,,,, that makes him a believer,,,
for the person who rape or robe somebody claiming himself muslim ,,, is muslim name ,,, infront of Allah he is hypocrate and wicked,,, and Allah never loves wicked.... hope the understand the brackets...

God...can you stop with the commas, the point is that explain your logic behind atheist has 100% chance of rape and robbery, Because to me that is the most absurd logic i've ever heard...

reel

that's not the paper I was looking for. I guess I will have to manually find the exact paper the article talks about. Once I get my hands on that, I will investigate and come back and post on this forum about my thoughts. Can't say anything about that without knowing much at the moment.

I should have bookmarked the study.

That was what I believed when I was a Muslim. However, upon realizing where I went wrong, I had to stop believing in that. Let me share with you what caused the change in my belief. I realized that I was comparing apple to oranges with that teacher-student example. For example, let's say I was teaching kids how to solve a calculus problem and testing them. I'd never do their homeworks or exams for them. HOWEVER, if I was teaching them ways of avoiding rape or murder, it would be a totally different thing. I wouldn't test their skills in a setting where they'd actually get raped and murdered. Especially if I had ALL POWER to stop the rapist and murderer. See the difference now?

Actually, a program has been started to teach men to be not rapist. The all powerful one has given us the book that we can use to teach people not to murder and rape.

After realizing that crucial difference, I took it a step further. I questioned the very idea of testing. That is because, there is no point in an ALL KNOWING being testing anything. It just makes no sense. Imagine you being the trainer of the US Navy seals. Would you ever shoot the trainees point blank in their heads to test if that will harm them? You wouldn't! However, you'd test if they can learn the skills that you are there to train them with. Right? Why is there that difference? What makes the first test a no-no and a second one an okay one? The trouble with doing tests like the first one is that you already know the consequences with near about 100% certainty. However, in case of the second one, DUE TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE GAP, you must rely on testing systems to ensure that you are giving a pass grade to someone who actually is capable of pulling off what you have to teach.

He does tell us that we will be tested.

Now please realize that the God you believe in is ALL KNOWING and therefore can also see the future. The implications of which is that irrespective of how much free-will he bestows upon you, he ALREADY KNEW even before creating ANYTHING if you'd pass or fail. So why bother with any testing at all? That just adds to suffering! He could have simply created the nice ones and put them in heaven. No suffering, no drama. But no, knowing in advance who'd fail the trial and who will pass, he did go forward with creating everything anyway. He then comically acts all shocked and appalled by the behaviors of the ones that fail and impressed by the behaviors of the ones that passes the test. Then he goes on to put the passed people in heaven and the failures in some kind of a torture chamber. How is that reasonable? I know I can talk a lot but I feel like I must include another example of just how insane it is

I am an infinitely creative and capable computer programmer who creates artificial intelligence software that are conscious in a way and can feel pain/pleasure. Before I write my next 100 programs, I already know that 50 of them will malfunction while the other 50 will work just as I love it. I have the plan to put all the nice ones into the HEAVEN folder. I realize that I could just directly write the nice softwares into the heaven folder and be done with that. But no! I don't do that. First I create 100 programs knowing well that the bad ones will make the good ones suffer too. Then after a set date, I move the good ones to the HEAVEN folder and create a torture folder called HELL for the remaining malfunctioning programs!

The problem here is that the software is not made up of the computer programmer. Hence, it is not the analogy that can be used to understand God.

He isn't a separate being. He is a powerful energy within whom all exist. This energy can be evoked to give us positive when we choose the good from the heart. Quranically, this energy has always been here and it has given us the tools to feel it. A closer example of this is the baby in the womb. He is connected to the mother, but he doesn't see her those 9 months. This does not mean she doesn't exist.

God may know about our future, but that doesn't mean he won't give us options to change it. Hence, the immense number of times we have been told to seek guidance. The idea that we reside in him is not exactly an easy thing to grasp because our reality is limited.

If anyone did that, people would not only call such a person crazy, but would ask them to seek immediate psychological help. So I guess you will be able to at least understand why I decided to stop saying to myself that "this life is just a test and a teacher shouldn't help student's with their homeworks/test".

Yet it seems there has never been an atheist world.

And to answer your question about how the world would look if God decided to intervene and stop evil, let me tell you that the world would have been really beautiful. It would look like a merciful, loving, just, kind, reasonable creator created it.

Perhaps, it is possible to see such world after we leave this earth?

It isn't entirely contingent on conditioning. Yes, it can be nurtured. I agree. That is where reason comes in. There are psychopaths who stay away from psychopathic behaviors. Why? Because despite them not having a good working ability to FEEL empathy, they can tell WHY THEY SHOULD behave a certain way. We can all see the value in working towards a world where we all reciprocate nicely and minimize collisions. That doesn't even take involvement of emotions.

They should behave certain way because there is something called law. For the rest, Emanuel explains why what you said doesn't work

the human species Homo Sapiens, it will only care about its own pack and identity and easily ignores all circumstantial harm. The saving link here is the advanced consciousness it possesses which may if used open up to show empathy also towards things outside of the Beast's "area of interest" (or instinctive protection and nurture).

It does think "survival of the fittest" by instinct.

It enjoys hunting and enjoys violence.

It struggles to dominate others which can be revealed in that it likes to compete in team-like sports.

It does become lenient to the most socially and fiscally powerful ones and begins to imitate them.

It is prestigious meaning it will struggle to look good socially or fiscally.

It is jealous and will work hard to have what others have and to exceed their possessions if it can.

It does easily lie not to look bad socially or to gain wealth. Beautifying the truth into what it is not is also lying.

It does perceive the World with a materialist perception and generally tends to have gods that are visualized one way or another which is the fallacy of involving instinct in the Higher Consciousness processes.

It is greedy so it will in many cases place itself in the center.

It will struggle hard to be mating and does commit adultery if the desire becomes too strong and gives in to the Body.

It may react strongly to others who do not follow their instincts.

It may bully those outside the group with different group identity or lone wolves (clearly showing the lack of empathy sentiment).

If it does consider a party inferior or jealous towards them (unfairness) it may justify stealing from them. (Often happens in war)

And so on. It is good to sometimes make yourself aware that you are inside a thing that is apart from your Spirit and makes you a slave to the World because it does conform to it. It is that working and toiling mindlessly that is a huge trap. To work for things you do not really need just to be proud, pleased and be able to shine before others. Ignore that and just buy what you need and dress in simple clothes and ignore what people say about you and grow in confidence that you have something to reply in return to them. Feel your Spiritual path is only good for that it is.

A differentiation from these instincts can be explained by a connection to their Higher Consciousness i.e. their Spirit. The more "lifeless" and indulgent in the stereotypical community the more they give in to the primate. Trends, fashions, status is just a sign of how people are conforming to being their animal Body they are attached to.
sourcehttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607830.msg376308#msg376308

True. However, the things I talked about are pretty much universal. It seems like morality exists on a spectrum and clearly culture influences our view. That does not mean that we should do away with it. Just like the topic of health. You can disagree all you want about which particular state of your physical being is the best way to be, that doesn't mean that we should get rid of the notion of health! Why do that for morality?

God phenomenon is universal also. Jews, Christians, Muslims and Hindus may not agree on how he is, but that doesn't mean we have to get rid of the notion of God. But you did.

I mean, this is something that people don't seem to put much thought into before talking about it. Just imagine, there does exist people who say that morbid obesity is not a health problem, all the class A drugs are not a health problem, all kinds of denialists who don't agree with the bulk of humanity on what is healthy and what is not. Did that make us throw away the very notion of "health" and be like "Oh! A person can just say for their own selfish benefit that shooting heroin is healthy for them according to their standards. Therefore lets get rid of the idea of health and physical well-being altogether!". If we don't say ridiculous things like that when it comes to health, why say similar things when the discussion of morality is involved? There is no particular reason except for someone to try to make it sound like without God there would be no morality. Which is clearly refuted by the evidence of reality where atheists do not form the majority of the criminals in this world.

Consider the following
Mr XYZ doesn't want to do bad because he knows a higher power is watching over him.
Mr ABC wants to do bad because he knows he is not accountable to any higher power. He has got just one life. So why not just live it like there is no tomorrow?

Do you get now why the matter of morality is brought to table?

You misunderstood my test. I wasn't asking you based on on the absolute number of criminals. Let's put it this way

Say the world population is 7 billion. There are 1.5 billion Muslims, 2 billion Christians, 0.5 billion Buddhists, 1 billion Hindus, 2 billion Jews. Now let's say we created a prison for all the bad people in the world and we find the following

Prison population demographics
80% are Buddhists
5 % are Muslims
10% are Christians
3 % are Hindus
2 % are Jews

What does that data tell us? It tells us that despite the Buddhists being the minority in the world, they are disproportionately represented in the prison population. Despite Buddhist being just 7% of the world's population, they represent a giant 80% of the world's prison population. From that you could start talking about the correlation between being Buddhist and having a high chance of being a criminal.

That is the type of study I wanted you to do. Atheists being minority won't count.

In the history of humans, nobody has ever been able to show a correlation like that for atheists. I know that even if you won't admit it, you already know it. If a crime takes place anywhere on this world, even the most crazy governments like Saudis won't first go after the atheists randomly. That is because virtually everyone already knows that the likelihood of one doing a bad action is not contingent on whether they believe that the universe had a creator or not.

It all depends on our individual "values" and "ideals". Not whether we believe there is a God or not. Where would you want to spend the rest of your life, in France (almost 50% atheists) or ISIS controlled territory(almost 100% believers in God)? The answer to that should tell you why atheism doesn't make people evil on it's own.

And when did all the inmates start to tell the truth? One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that they do lie. Pretending to be a pious christian is a good option to look honest to jailers. Do note that psychopaths are good at manipulation. I wouldn't use ISIS as an example of believers because it is pretty much known now that they are a setup by the elite.
https//www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/3ra3ez/isis_is_a_usisrael_proxy_army_evidence_thread/

And to be honest, even as a Muslim, I was always terrified of other sectarian Muslims and NEVER EVER afraid that an atheist will harm me.

I mentioned something about this in my other thread. Currently, it is not right for us to think atheists are immoral because of conditioning coming from religions. They are surrounded with religious folks and also according to my professors, ethical laws are derived from scriptures. They say that logic can make the worst look better. Hence, in many cases of "where the ethics in it" is answered by religions.

Are you suggesting in some weird way that all the people who commit crimes, or at least a considerable number of them, are atheists. Then they go into prison and start believing in a God and then adopts a religion? I hope not.

Nope, I was pointing out that using prison population to prove atheists don't do crimes is a bad idea.

What does this tell you? WHY do you think these services are provided? As far as I know, these services are provided because the inmates going in want them. When was the last time you have seen an atheist asking for a Mullah or Catholic priest? They have these options available for people so that they may carry on whatever religious stuff they must while being in prison.

No, if you go back to the description I pasted from the site you will notice that it says religions do run certain rehab like programs.
ExampleAlternatives to Violence/Hands of Peace
One does not necessarily have to be christian to come in regular contact with at least christian priests. Same is seen in hospitals. When my parents were admitted christian priests visited them in the rooms to pray for them. No one asked for it, but they just thought they had a responsibility to do so. They did same for the father of my Buddhist friend.

I would fight until my last breath with all my might to stop that from happening. Religions shouldn't be banned just because they are religions. It'd go against my fundamental human rights. I wouldn't want to live in a world where I am being forced and told what to believe in or not believe in. Freedom of thoughts, beliefs, expression,speech are vital in my world view.

This doesn't mean that I want religion to be there. I just don't want to force people through legislation and sword to stop believing. That sounds to me like a seriously diabolic thing to do. I consider a lot of religious beliefs to be detrimental to progress and human well-being. Therefore I want to eradicate such poisonous beliefs.

You have a good dream about the world. I dreamed the same about this Quran movement. I thought it is the only way to bring peace and an urge to take care of the earth but after seeing certain ill posts about how sex before marriage is not forbidden and example I gave herehttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607757.msg375108#msg375108 I have come to realize it isn't for everyone.

Similar to this is what the members have been indirectly saying to you here. Another atheist might not be thinking just like you and this is where things get complicated esp in morality department. Quranists certainly are not promoting violence. But atheists like Bill Maher do. He thinks bombing can be humanitarian and that's very scary. In the class, despite being christian, muslim, jewish, hindu, etc we never made comment on who believed in the correct god, but then atheist professor came along to let the christian students to know their god didn't exist. It was not even connected to the course. That's intolerance. And if you just notice the top countries that have the least tolerance to freedom of religion you will find china and north korea in the list. So all atheists don't have similar view except that god doesn't exist. Do ponder upon Emanuel's post I pasted above and also the things from protocols of learned elders of zion. You will notice that you have surrendered to exact thing they have been aiming for to leave the society disintegrated.

My way of dealing with them is through dialogues such as this one, debates, education, etc. The only time I'd advocate government intervention is times like when people are being harmed, especially physically. Other than that, my war against crazy and dangerous belief systems is solely reliant on intellectual means.

But what if there is corruption in education and something none of us know because it was not allowed to be taught? What if some things we are learning are false? Protocols of zion book seems to hint it to be true and also we cannot deny the fact that scientists face problem if they give positive theories on God.

Student_of_Allah

Shalom Aleikhem good logic,

Now we are getting somewhere. we are at opposing ends We are" two parallel lines".

So unless one of us changes direction/course or both of us change direction/course, we will carry on this " battle".

As long as you are being a decent human being, I don't really care much about your beliefs.

I appreciate and welcome your "continuous search". I also welcome your request for evidence. During the course of our conversation I may share with you "my evidence" but I must warn you that it may not satisfy your request .. Why?

Because like I said before if we travel at two parallel lines ,what you want as evidence and what I have for evidence are never going to "meet", "your evidence" will be different to mine

Well, that can happen. However, there is no harm in trying. If you do wish to share any particular evidence. I'd suggest that you open a thread just for that and present your case there and invite me to read, learn and investigate that and respond.

For me ,as a believer ,the evidence you might be looking for as an Atheist will not be shown to you until the "promised day"
2521
Those who do not expect to meet us said, "If only the angels could come down to us, or we could see our Lord (we would then believe)!" Indeed, they have committed a gross arrogance, and have produced a gross blasphemy.
2522
The day they see the angels( or GOD), it will not be good news for the guilty; they will say, "Now, we are irreversibly confined."

And I cannot accept that. If I told you right now that I am the creator of Allah who created Allah and brainwashed Him into believing that he is the one and only God, would you believe me? You know, I am just visiting the earth as a mortal for now for fun. Wouldn't you ask for evidence? What if I told you that I'll only give you that evidence after you die? Would you even take my claim seriously after that?

From my perspective, this is what is going on I was born in a Muslim family who brainwashed me as a child along with my community to be a believer in God and Islam. When I grew up, I wanted to know further about it and found the source material (Qur'an). After the studying the Qur'an for some time, I concluded that it cannot be divine. After looking for evidence for the existence of God for so long, I'm still waiting today. And now you come and tell me that I have to die first to know if it would be reasonable for me to believe or not believe!

It sounds very much like this GodFather analogy I heard. This guy is confronted by a gangster who says that the God father wants you to do X,Y,Z, if you don't do it, he will slaughter your kids and their kids in the future! So the guy asks the gangster "Where is this GodFather?", to which the gangster replies "In a town outside your reach. No transport, phone lines, internet, anything goes there". The guy seems puzzled about what to do. Then the gangster tells him "don't be that worried now! If you do X,Y,Z for the rest of your life though, the GodFather will give you 100 million dollars when you retire". The guy says "You want me to work my entire life and do X,Y,Z for some GodFather whom I've never even met, can't even tell if he exists?". The gangster replies saying "Well, it's your choice, you can either retire with 100 million dollars or have your family massacred! Either will be good evidence for his existance!"

Yes ,you might mention "Scientific facts" ...etc. This world with its laws and Scientific facts will not "show GOD" or other dimensions no matter how advanced or ...We become.
Let me confirm for you that I follow and have a lot of interest in Science. I also want to "prove all things" if possible.

God doesn't have to do anymore for me to convince me than he did for people like Moses, Jesus or Muhammad. I don't need to literally see him to find his existence the most likely thing to be.

Notice I said "believer" I mean I have other evidence like "Mathematics" in the universe and the message. GOD s signature on HIS creations.I will gladly share that part with you.

Alright.

For now I am certain and satisfied with my evidence .

But I am reading and listening to your take on things.
So far we remain "Opposites"?

Well, if I don't have the evidence and you do, we are meant to hold opposite views on the matter.

You have asked,quote

This sounds very dark. Can you please confirm what you mean by "last chance"? Do you mean that this life is the only chance I will get? or do you mean that if I don't accept God right now right here, you will kill me and I will have no chance left?

I understand from GOD s message that this life is our "last chance" to redeem ourselves back to GOD s kingdom. I was talking in general about "us humans" not you in particular. I am also one of you.That is "my understanding.
As far as I am concerned you are "safe and free " to do as you please, I am no one s advocate or judge.

Looking forward to continue this conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

That's good to know. Given the total number of threats I've received so far, I was just a bit worried.

May peace be with you

-------------------------------- Student of Allah

Student_of_Allah

Actually, a program has been started to teach men to be not rapist. The all powerful one has given us the book that we can use to teach people not to murder and rape.

No evidence for that at all. Any peer reviewed scientific journal to back that claim up? You are simply ASSERTING that after reading that book, people will not rape. However that is not that case.

To be frank, this further adds to my point. Why in the world wouldn't he program that into us to begin with? Why hide the program in one of thousands of ancient books all of which claims to be divine, written in a language most of the world's population doesn't give a damn about? Not to mention that most sentences and the implications of them are totally contingent on subjective interpretation. What an extremely bizarre way of telling people to not rape! Especially when he could just beam it to us perhaps in the form of an instinct. That clearly shows that he is a pro-rape God. If I were in his position, I'd program it into people to not be able to rape in the first place. It is disgusting to create someone sick, then go to extreme lengths to hide the cure and then torture people for not finding the cure later on! For shame!

He does tell us that we will be tested.

That is not an answer to the problem with your philosophy that I pointed out. Let me quote myself again and please explain to me/answer my question

That was what I believed when I was a Muslim. However, upon realizing where I went wrong, I had to stop believing in that. Let me share with you what caused the change in my belief. I realized that I was comparing apple to oranges with that teacher-student example. For example, let's say I was teaching kids how to solve a calculus problem and testing them. I'd never do their homeworks or exams for them. HOWEVER, if I was teaching them ways of avoiding rape or murder, it would be a totally different thing. I wouldn't test their skills in a setting where they'd actually get raped and murdered. Especially if I had ALL POWER to stop the rapist and murderer. See the difference now?

After realizing that crucial difference, I took it a step further. I questioned the very idea of testing. That is because, there is no point in an ALL KNOWING being testing anything. It just makes no sense. Imagine you being the trainer of the US Navy seals. Would you ever shoot the trainees point blank in their heads to test if that will harm them? You wouldn't! However, you'd test if they can learn the skills that you are there to train them with. Right? Why is there that difference? What makes the first test a no-no and a second one an okay one? The trouble with doing tests like the first one is that you already know the consequences with near about 100% certainty. However, in case of the second one, DUE TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE GAP, you must rely on testing systems to ensure that you are giving a pass grade to someone who actually is capable of pulling off what you have to teach.

Now please realize that the God you believe in is ALL KNOWING and therefore can also see the future. The implications of which is that irrespective of how much free-will he bestows upon you, he ALREADY KNEW even before creating ANYTHING if you'd pass or fail. So why bother with any testing at all? That just adds to suffering! He could have simply created the nice ones and put them in heaven. No suffering, no drama. But no, knowing in advance who'd fail the trial and who will pass, he did go forward with creating everything anyway. He then comically acts all shocked and appalled by the behaviors of the ones that fail and impressed by the behaviors of the ones that passes the test. Then he goes on to put the passed people in heaven and the failures in some kind of a torture chamber. How is that reasonable? I know I can talk a lot but I feel like I must include another example of just how insane it is

I am an infinitely creative and capable computer programmer who creates artificial intelligence software that are conscious in a way and can feel pain/pleasure. Before I write my next 100 programs, I already know that 50 of them will malfunction while the other 50 will work just as I love it. I have the plan to put all the nice ones into the HEAVEN folder. I realize that I could just directly write the nice softwares into the heaven folder and be done with that. But no! I don't do that. First I create 100 programs knowing well that the bad ones will make the good ones suffer too. Then after a set date, I move the good ones to the HEAVEN folder and create a torture folder called HELL for the remaining malfunctioning programs!

The problem here is that the software is not made up of the computer programmer. Hence, it is not the analogy that can be used to understand God.

How does that affect the analogy? Are you kidding me? So you are saying that if I create robots with free will knowing in advance that they will use the free will to kill your parents, I am accountable. However, when your God made people with free will who HE KNEW will go murder and rape, he isn't accountable?

To be honest, the difference between the two analogies are that the human programmer would be less accountable. The reason being that he isn't all powerful and couldn't possibly try to intervene and stop the murders. Whereas, your God should be put on trial for

KNOWINGLY aiding in murder and rape
Not stopping the criminals when it takes him less than zero effort to stop. Where a man has to work for it, he can just will!

He isn't a separate being. He is a powerful energy within whom all exist. This energy can be evoked to give us positive when we choose the good from the heart. Quranically, this energy has always been here and it has given us the tools to feel it. A closer example of this is the baby in the womb. He is connected to the mother, but he doesn't see her those 9 months. This does not mean she doesn't exist.

Still doesn't explain anything..... You might as well have talked about what kind of food he prefers here. Still would have made your point just as much.

God may know about our future, but that doesn't mean he won't give us options to change it. Hence, the immense number of times we have been told to seek guidance. The idea that we reside in him is not exactly an easy thing to grasp because our reality is limited.

No matter how many times we change it, HE ALREADY KNEW THE END RESULT. Therefore giving us options to change doesn't mean a thing. Here is an example

I ask you to pick a number between one to ten and I am ALL KNOWING and therefore KNOW WHAT YOU WILL PICK IN THE VERY LAST ATTEMPT. You pick a number and I ask you to change it. You swap your choice with another number. I ask you to change it again and again. After asking you 100 times to change it, you tell me that the number was 8. Now, please use your reasoning abilities to answer this question If I am all knowing and can see the future, wouldn't I already know even before we play the game that at the end of the day after 100 changes you will pick 8? Of course I'd know.

Therefore, just because people get chances to choose differently, you cannot conclude that God didn't already know. Now if you say that you meant that God knew but people are to be blamed for it, then you have to answer the dilemma I presented above with the robots. Please explain why God isn't responsible then when you'd hold anyone else who knowingly aids evil when they could stop it.

I am an infinitely creative and capable computer programmer who creates artificial intelligence software that are conscious in a way and can feel pain/pleasure. Before I write my next 100 programs, I already know that 50 of them will malfunction while the other 50 will work just as I love it. I have the plan to put all the nice ones into the HEAVEN folder. I realize that I could just directly write the nice softwares into the heaven folder and be done with that. But no! I don't do that. First I create 100 programs knowing well that the bad ones will make the good ones suffer too. Then after a set date, I move the good ones to the HEAVEN folder and create a torture folder called HELL for the remaining malfunctioning programs!

If anyone did that, people would not only call such a person crazy, but would ask them to seek immediate psychological help. So I guess you will be able to at least understand why I decided to stop saying to myself that "this life is just a test and a teacher shouldn't help student's with their homeworks/test".

Yet it seems there has never been an atheist world.

Really, that's all you could say to that? Why don't you attempt at responding to what I am saying and showing me where I am going wrong? Wouldn't that be much more productive than an absolutely non-answer?

Perhaps, it is possible to see such world after we leave this earth?

No evidence for that, so that's as likely as me being a God who lost his memory and power after a planned trip to earth where I was supposed to live like a human. Who knows?
Still don't want to address the bit about your God taking responsibility into his hands and making the world a better place, do you? Always relying on the weak and flawed to do the right thing when the most perfect and most powerful one just sits there idly watching horrendous evil and suffering.

They should behave certain way because there is something called law. For the rest, Emanuel explains why what you said doesn't work

That is not true. I don't know about the type of person you are. However, doesn't go around raping and murdering or abusing little kids because there are laws against those things. Our built in instincts nurtured by values that reflects the basic premises of well-being I discussed earlier (health being preferred over sickness,etc) is what makes us moral. The law is there to penalize the ones going against those things only.
Emanuel's writings are extremely polarized and focuses solely on the dark side. Which is NOT THE TRUE PICTURE. Yes I have been unkind at times, but just because I have been unkind at times doesn't mean that I am some kind of volcano oozing out unkindness. That is what Emanuel has done with his post. He absolutely ignored all pros of homosapiens and wrote solely about the cons. And modeled homosapiens only after that, making us look like the monsters that WE ARE NOT. It's like someone saying "Homosapiens can be forgiving. Therefore they are only able to forgive. They can't ever hold anything against anyone". It's just as flawed as that. Don't know why you can't see through his extremely polarised analysis of homosapiens. On top of that, why would you share his post to make the point? There have been countless peer reviewed journals and books published on the nature of Man. What makes Emanuel's polarized opinions trump all of that research? Your bias perhaps?

God phenomenon is universal also. Jews, Christians, Muslims and Hindus may not agree on how he is, but that doesn't mean we have to get rid of the notion of God. But you did.

What in the name of the mother of Christ are you talking about? hypno

I do believe and know that God BELIEFS are a universal phenomenon. You put it wrongly. God Phenomenon isn't the universal thing. It's the BELIEFS that are universal. There is a world of a difference between something being a phenomenon as opposed to mere beliefs.
I never "got rid of the notion of God". I have no evidence to believe that there is one. I also don't have evidence that there are no Gods. I always mention that whenever someone asks me about my atheism. Done so many times on this forum actually. So how did I get rid of that notion? I am not saying that people don't have God beliefs . I am just saying that none can provide evidence for them. JUST LIKE YOU.

Consider the following
Mr XYZ doesn't want to do bad because he knows a higher power is watching over him.
Mr ABC wants to do bad because he knows he is not accountable to any higher power. He has got just one life. So why not just live it like there is no tomorrow?

I, along with virtually all atheists I know do live like there is no tomorrow. Guess what? None of us rape,murder, rob, etc. I understand that if you didn't have someone watching you all the time, you'd probably do all that. Please just don't project them onto us. Ask us first about what we feel like doing instead of projecting your feelings onto us.
Do you not see what you did there? In your example, you SET IT UP! You wrote it such that the god-believer DOES'NT WANT TO do bad and the atheist WANTS TO DO BAD.

You are the one who wrote that and is making it seem like God believers are all like that or mostly like that and Atheists are are all mostly like that. THAT IS NOT CORRECT. I have told you before and I will demand from you again, please show me a statistics of crime based on people's religious beliefs. AFTER you can demonstrate that atheists are the only ones who commit crime, or at least most atheists are like that, and after you demonstrate that religious people are INCAPABLE of committing crimes or MOST OF THEM are incapable of breaking the law, then you get to start talking like that.

Seriously? Your assumptions about atheists are disturbing. Even more so when the implications are such that the only reason you haven't yet molested a kid is because God is watching! For shame!

Do you get now why the matter of morality is brought to table?

To let the world know that if God wasn't looking you'd be a raping,lying,thieving, murdering psychopath?

I can't believe that you'd ever try to argue that without God you have no reason to not be all of that I mentioned above! Now if you say that God isn't the only reason you aren't a raping,lying,thieving, murdering psychopath, then you should already know why morality shouldn't be on the table.

Also that you failed to provide any evidence for Atheists committing more crimes than God believers. That shows that even without God, we are no less moral than you are. That alone should make you rethink before putting morality on the table.

And when did all the inmates start to tell the truth? One thing I forgot to mention earlier is that they do lie. Pretending to be a pious christian is a good option to look honest to jailers. Do note that psychopaths are good at manipulation. I wouldn't use ISIS as an example of believers because it is pretty much known now that they are a setup by the elite.
https//www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/3ra3ez/isis_is_a_usisrael_proxy_army_evidence_thread/

You are now officially insane.

You are suggesting that nobody who believes in the existence of a God can commit crimes. I think any honest member of this forum or human being in general will disagree with you. That is just EVIDENTLY WRONG. On top of that, rather disturbing and offensively, you are trying to indirectly imply that the entire world's prison population is atheists who are lying?

You have to be MAD to believe in something like that. I am no longer sure about your mental state.

I mentioned something about this in my other thread. Currently, it is not right for us to think atheists are immoral because of conditioning coming from religions. They are surrounded with religious folks and also according to my professors, ethical laws are derived from scriptures. They say that logic can make the worst look better. Hence, in many cases of "where the ethics in it" is answered by religions.

Bullshit! Anything moral prescribed by religion can be arrived at using reason and our inner compasses. If our morality would have just been borrowed from these dirty religions, we'd be talking about torturing you guys indefinitely for not believing, stoning people to death for petty crimes and often non-crimes, beheading people for their speech, chopping off people's hands, etc.

You seem to have no idea about philosophy and other worldviews where people follow various systems without ever even believing in a God.

I strongly disagree with you that the only reason I haven't molested kids is because my ex religion was against it! That is appalling to even think about. I don't do that because it's first not what I want to do, on top of it, it adds to human suffering while taking away from human well-being. Therefore I wouldn't want to live in a world where that was okay. It's sickening to hear someone say that I am not molesting kids because once upon a time I read their old book!

Religion isn't welcomed in discussions of ethics in any serious academic circles. Religious people lobby and uses their voting power or dictatorship in places like Saudi to get involved.
Religions, especially ones like the one you follow, don't give us a moral system anyway. They give us moral pronouncements. Please google "secular morality" to learn further about how unlike you, we don't need a god to tell us why not to rape the kid next door.

Nope, I was pointing out that using prison population to prove atheists don't do crimes is a bad idea.

Well that's the only way to do it. That is the conclusive method of demonstration that everyone that breaks the law is an atheist and only an atheist.

The reason you aren't interested is because YOU KNOW that what you are saying is absolute and utter bullshit and a fairytale you believe in. Perhaps demonizing atheists and dehumanizing them makes you feel good about yourself?

No, if you go back to the description I pasted from the site you will notice that it says religions do run certain rehab like programs.
ExampleAlternatives to Violence/Hands of Peace
One does not necessarily have to be christian to come in regular contact with at least christian priests. Same is seen in hospitals. When my parents were admitted christian priests visited them in the rooms to pray for them. No one asked for it, but they just thought they had a responsibility to do so. They did same for the father of my Buddhist friend.

How in the world does that equal to EVERYONE THAT EVER COMMITTED A CRIME IS AN ATHEIST PRETENDING TO BE A THEIST? or THEISTS ARE INCAPABLE OF COMMITTING CRIME?

You have a good dream about the world. I dreamed the same about this Quran movement. I thought it is the only way to bring peace and an urge to take care of the earth but after seeing certain ill posts about how sex before marriage is not forbidden and example I gave herehttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607757.msg375108#msg375108 I have come to realize it isn't for everyone.

As far as Islamic reformation goes, I think the Quranist movement should get to become the mainstream one if we are to have a peaceful Islamic world.

Similar to this is what the members have been indirectly saying to you here. Another atheist might not be thinking just like you and this is where things get complicated esp in morality department. Quranists certainly are not promoting violence. But atheists like Bill Maher do. He thinks bombing can be humanitarian and that's very scary. In the class, despite being christian, muslim, jewish, hindu, etc we never made comment on who believed in the correct god, but then atheist professor came along to let the christian students to know their god didn't exist. It was not even connected to the course. That's intolerance. And if you just notice the top countries that have the least tolerance to freedom of religion you will find china and north korea in the list. So all atheists don't have similar view except that god doesn't exist. Do ponder upon Emanuel's post I pasted above and also the things from protocols of learned elders of zion. You will notice that you have surrendered to exact thing they have been aiming for to leave the society disintegrated.

I also happen to think that whether bombing is humanitarian or evil depends on the situation. It has nothing to do with my atheism. I'm sure you'll find many muslims on this site who'd agree with me that depending on the circumstance, killing is fine.
What some one atheist professor did wherever cannot be used to make every atheist look like that. Do you have any idea how much forcing religious people do over non-religious ones? Did you ever look at the parts of the world where religion dominates? Even in secular countries, the religious ones tries constantly to have prayers in schools, they even printed that idea on the bank notes and constantly tries to put up religious monuments in public buildings. Please don't try to make it sound like you live in a world where atheists are persecuting God believers more than God believers are violating human rights of the atheists on a daily basis and force feed their dogma to the atheists on a daily basis all around the world depending on how powerful a certain religious group is in that part of that world.
You say that other atheists can be unlike me. So could other God believers. I know God believers who are murderers and rapists and corrupt traitors. Now what? Should I start having a panic attack about anything who believes in a God just because someone else could be less peaceful person than you are?

If you want to be afraid of atheists/secular people being criminals, first show us the evidence. I have been asking for it for a long time now. Have written chapter books on it in this thread. Yet you refuse to bring any evidence. All you do is keep asserting or implying that prison population throughout the entire world, which is a very good source to prove your case, is full of 100% liars who are all atheists pretending to believe in Gods.

I kinda think that I could call the mods on you for suggesting such things about entire groups of people. I don't want to make things dirty. So I'll just ask you and request that you do not ever try to imply something that horrendous about us atheists and demonize us to that point. Either show the evidence for that or know that just like your belief in God, you have no evidence to show for this belief.

But what if there is corruption in education and something none of us know because it was not allowed to be taught? What if some things we are learning are false? Protocols of zion book seems to hint it to be true and also we cannot deny the fact that scientists face problem if they give positive theories on God.

That's another major league bullshit. A scientist who could prove God would immediately win a Nobel prize and be the greatest scientist ever. Due to my extensive exposure to these things, I do know what you are referring to. What happens is that some pseudo scientists loses their reputation in the scientific community by publishing papers based on arguments from ignorance to invoke God. Basically, they find things they can't explain and go like "Just because I don't know how it could have happened, therefore God". That is the fastest way to lose respect in the scientific community. There are elite level God believing scientists too. They just aren't dishonest pricks like the ones you think "faces problem for coming up with theories of God".

If you disagree, please give me the name of one such scientist and I will tell you exactly why he became a laughing stock in academia. I have studied these cases a lot when I was a Muslim.

P.S. If you still keep stating that all the people in the world who are going to prison for committing crime, or even lucky and got away with their crimes, are all atheist, without evidence, then A, I'll report you to the moderators. B, you can forget having a discussion with me.

Peace
---------------------- Student of Allah

good_logic

Peace Student Of Allah.

Thank you for your answer. You mixed me up with "jafar" halfway through your post ,but that is fine we are all humans.

Your analogy about the "godfather" is fine except you forgot to mention that all systems of this life are run by "godfathers" some are fine (not perfect),some are bad and some are "ugly".

I happen to accept the only "GODFATHER" system that should be followed,according to me. It makes sense to me and benefits me. I found my "GODFATHER"to have the best/fairest/...system.

So my answer to your analogy is My "GODFATHER" does not order /instruct -Fahisha"...Bad things.
If you get to know "HIM "and "about HIM" you will see?

Also when I say you "cannot see GOD",there is no such evidence ,I do not mean you cannot see proofs/signs of HIS existence throughout the creation.

GOD has given us the eyes,ears and brain(according to my understanding) . Our intellect and reasoning can easily sort out if there really is " intelligent design" around us and in us. i.e is there an intelligentt,original source that " designed and created" us,and what is on our earth and universe?

We are coming to opposite conclusions so far,brother . If you are using Science and I am also using Science, you used Qoran and I am also using Qoran,does this mean there is something wrong with Science,Qoran, or both Science and Qoran?

Or does this mean one of us is coming to the wrong conclusion,or both of us?

I can only share my understanding with you. I cannot convince,nor am I here to convince you.

However .I am hoping our conversation will shed some light into "either you or me" or" both of us" need more reflection ,study and pondering.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Student_of_Allah

Shalom Aleikhem good logic,

GOD has given us the eyes,ears and brain(according to my understanding) . Our intellect and reasoning can easily sort out if there really is " intelligent design" around us and in us. i.e is there an intelligentt,original source that " designed and created" us,and what is on our earth and universe?

Please define intelligent design. I have a hunch that you are talking about the same intelligent design that was thrown out of the court as "religious belief" not a scientific conclusion on the Dover Trial. If you do have the time, please watch this documentary https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=sht0n_WHWwE

We are coming to opposite conclusions so far,brother . If you are using Science and I am also using Science, you used Qoran and I am also using Qoran,does this mean there is something wrong with Science,Qoran, or both Science and Qoran?

I rely on science. However, that isn't strictly necessary to not believe in God claims. We can erase everything we know about the universe from science. Still, even then, I'd need evidence to believe in the existence of fairies, unicorns or God for that matter. Science just allows for me to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.

Well, the scientific claims have strong evidence for which I can at least tentatively accept them. When it comes to the Qur'an however, now matter how I put it, I have to take it on faith. That was my problem with it.

Or does this mean one of us is coming to the wrong conclusion,or both of us?

Since we hold opposing views, one or both of us could be wrong.

Peace
---------------- Student of Allah

good_logic

Peace Student Of Allah.

Thank you for the link. I have watched it now .

Here is one example ,from many others, of my understanding of "Intelligent design"

The human start life as one cell,before becoming a baby. That cell has a DNA structure that instruct it to grow /become many cells,then different organs each organ very complex and with a different task and role for the body. Surely An "Intelligent programmer,designer" has designed/created such a complex system?

My belief in Qoran,and you may already know this,is my own research and checking of the "interlock" system . Impossible for any human to compose a book and Mathematically seal it . To be aware of the count of each letter,word sentence and chapter and place them exactly with mathematical accuracy to produce a full book that is both a literacy and numeracy masterpiece.

Of course what Qoran is saying,as you know,and what people say it is saying can be completely different. Yes including what I say Qoran is saying. You need to study the book for yourself from cover to cover , check all the acts yourself and make up your own mind.

Qoran for me defines and explains
What is a "Muslim"? Is there religion? What is a believer? What is a hypocrite? What is a disbeliever? What does Qoran say about every question you have about GOD, us,this life and...many more?

I read your posts to "reel" and others. There are many issues and assumptions from both sides with defining many things including a "believer", a "disbeliever"...etc That is where there are differences and misunderstandings.
For example not every religious person is a "believer"? Like not every Atheist is a "disbeliever"? etc

GOD bless you.
Peace.

reel

No evidence for that at all. Any peer reviewed scientific journal to back that claim up? You are simply ASSERTING that after reading that book, people will not rape. However that is not that case.

Are you insulting the men of this forum? Aren't they evidence? Do you believe these men even after taking the Quranic path will rape?

To be frank, this further adds to my point. Why in the world wouldn't he program that into us to begin with? Why hide the program in one of thousands of ancient books all of which claims to be divine, written in a language most of the world's population doesn't give a damn about? Not to mention that most sentences and the implications of them are totally contingent on subjective interpretation. What an extremely bizarre way of telling people to not rape! Especially when he could just beam it to us perhaps in the form of an instinct. That clearly shows that he is a pro-rape God. If I were in his position, I'd program it into people to not be able to rape in the first place. It is disgusting to create someone sick, then go to extreme lengths to hide the cure and then torture people for not finding the cure later on! For shame!

He did tell us there will be bad things. But from atheistic point of view, why don't you tell us why rape exists when people are naturally compassionate and hate to see the bad?

After realizing that crucial difference, I took it a step further. I questioned the very idea of testing. That is because, there is no point in an ALL KNOWING being testing anything.

Yeah only if God was like human.

How does that affect the analogy? Are you kidding me? So you are saying that if I create robots with free will knowing in advance that they will use the free will to kill your parents, I am accountable. However, when your God made people with free will who HE KNEW will go murder and rape, he isn't accountable?

To be honest, the difference between the two analogies are that the human programmer would be less accountable. The reason being that he isn't all powerful and couldn't possibly try to intervene and stop the murders. Whereas, your God should be put on trial for

KNOWINGLY aiding in murder and rape
Not stopping the criminals when it takes him less than zero effort to stop. Where a man has to work for it, he can just will!

Your analogy is connected to separation between the bot and its creator. This does not apply to God.

Still doesn't explain anything.....

True because it is beyond your reality. You are trying to know it through your limited knowledge you gained from today's scientific thinking.

No matter how many times we change it, HE ALREADY KNEW THE END RESULT. Therefore giving us options to change doesn't mean a thing. Here is an example

I ask you to pick a number between one to ten and I am ALL KNOWING and therefore KNOW WHAT YOU WILL PICK IN THE VERY LAST ATTEMPT. You pick a number and I ask you to change it. You swap your choice with another number. I ask you to change it again and again. After asking you 100 times to change it, you tell me that the number was 8. Now, please use your reasoning abilities to answer this question If I am all knowing and can see the future, wouldn't I already know even before we play the game that at the end of the day after 100 changes you will pick 8? Of course I'd know.

Therefore, just because people get chances to choose differently, you cannot conclude that God didn't already know. Now if you say that you meant that God knew but people are to be blamed for it, then you have to answer the dilemma I presented above with the robots. Please explain why God isn't responsible then when you'd hold anyone else who knowingly aids evil when they could stop it.

Once again, you are applying your limited reality to understand God. He has his own rules which we still are not capable of understanding. However, we do know that he listens to us when we need something. I at least got surprising benefits despite not taking any steps. Now would you say it was sheer luck and not answer from God? If you choose luck then you know that there is no scientific proof that it exists. I posted a reply for you in another thread. I am pasting the link here. After reading it through, explain to us by using science why these things are happening
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607936.20

Really, that's all you could say to that? Why don't you attempt at responding to what I am saying and showing me where I am going wrong? Wouldn't that be much more productive than an absolutely non-answer?

Which question did I skip?

No evidence for that, so that's as likely as me being a God who lost his memory and power after a planned trip to earth where I was supposed to live like a human. Who knows?

GERMAN SCIENTISTS PROVE THERE IS LIFE AFTER DEATH
http//worldnewsdailyreport.com/german-scientists-prove-there-is-life-after-death/

Still don't want to address the bit about your God taking responsibility into his hands and making the world a better place, do you?

In his hands??? He isn't a human. However, if you are pointing to quranic term "hand" then do note that it means ability.

Always relying on the weak and flawed to do the right thing when the most perfect and most powerful one just sits there idly watching horrendous evil and suffering

I can't speak about a God who is human like!

That is not true. I don't know about the type of person you are. However, doesn't go around raping and murdering or abusing little kids because there are laws against those things. Our built in instincts nurtured by values that reflects the basic premises of well-being I discussed earlier (health being preferred over sickness,etc) is what makes us moral. The law is there to penalize the ones going against those things only.
Emanuel's writings are extremely polarized and focuses solely on the dark side. Which is NOT THE TRUE PICTURE. Yes I have been unkind at times, but just because I have been unkind at times doesn't mean that I am some kind of volcano oozing out unkindness. That is what Emanuel has done with his post. He absolutely ignored all pros of homosapiens and wrote solely about the cons. And modeled homosapiens only after that, making us look like the monsters that WE ARE NOT. It's like someone saying "Homosapiens can be forgiving. Therefore they are only able to forgive. They can't ever hold anything against anyone". It's just as flawed as that. Don't know why you can't see through his extremely polarised analysis of homosapiens. On top of that, why would you share his post to make the point? There have been countless peer reviewed journals and books published on the nature of Man. What makes Emanuel's polarized opinions trump all of that research? Your bias perhaps?

Don't you think you are contradicting? When you talk about God you see rape and murder, but when it comes to atheism you claim that humans are naturally moral. Don't you think this is a bias? I don't know where you live, but what Emanuel wrote is something we see in the west a lot.

What in the name of the mother of Christ are you talking about? hypno

I do believe and know that God BELIEFS are a universal phenomenon. You put it wrongly. God Phenomenon isn't the universal thing. It's the BELIEFS that are universal. There is a world of a difference between something being a phenomenon as opposed to mere beliefs.

What is diff between belief in a religion versus God? Just because I did not mention atheism as the other religion does not mean that is not true.

I never "got rid of the notion of God". I have no evidence to believe that there is one. I also don't have evidence that there are no Gods. I always mention that whenever someone asks me about my atheism. Done so many times on this forum actually. So how did I get rid of that notion? I am not saying that people don't have God beliefs . I am just saying that none can provide evidence for them. JUST LIKE YOU.

I provided. I saw God. The description given above is the evidence of it. Feel free to start researching to know what I said is true. Don't wait for other researchers. Also I have actually told you in another thread to do something so you may find your own result without spending a dime. I am pasting it here
Try that test in yourself and see how you react. Try adding in your signature "I wish God would kill my parents" and stay with it for a while with the notion that since God doesn't exist me praying for their harm won't matter.

I, along with virtually all atheists I know do live like there is no tomorrow. Guess what? None of us rape,murder, rob, etc. I understand that if you didn't have someone watching you all the time, you'd probably do all that. Please just don't project them onto us. Ask us first about what we feel like doing instead of projecting your feelings onto us.

Generalization? Doesn't China exist anymore?

Radical Atheist Kills Three Muslims in North Carolina
http//www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/20103-radical-atheist-kills-three-muslims-in-north-carolina

Atheist government of Soviet Union
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union

Do you not see what you did there? In your example, you SET IT UP! You wrote it such that the god-believer DOES'NT WANT TO do bad and the atheist WANTS TO DO BAD.

It just means humans are capable of doing evil, but some who have fear of God would choose to stay on the right track.

You are the one who wrote that and is making it seem like God believers are all like that or mostly like that and Atheists are are all mostly like that. THAT IS NOT CORRECT. I have told you before and I will demand from you again, please show me a statistics of crime based on people's religious beliefs. AFTER you can demonstrate that atheists are the only ones who commit crime, or at least most atheists are like that, and after you demonstrate that religious people are INCAPABLE of committing crimes or MOST OF THEM are incapable of breaking the law, then you get to start talking like that.

I did not see anywhere you mentioned that prison population coming from religions did their crimes in the name of God. I told you all the reasons for which we cannot use prison population to understand who commits the most crimes.

Seriously? Your assumptions about atheists are disturbing. Even more so when the implications are such that the only reason you haven't yet molested a kid is because God is watching! For shame!

To let the world know that if God wasn't looking you'd be a raping,lying,thieving, murdering psychopath?

I can't believe that you'd ever try to argue that without God you have no reason to not be all of that I mentioned above! Now if you say that God isn't the only reason you aren't a raping,lying,thieving, murdering psychopath, then you should already know why morality shouldn't be on the table.

Also that you failed to provide any evidence for Atheists committing more crimes than God believers. That shows that even without God, we are no less moral than you are. That alone should make you rethink before putting morality on the table.

But it looks like even atheists agree with me
Scientific research yields inconsistent and contradictory evidence relating religion to moral judgments and outcomes, yet most people on earth nonetheless view belief in God (or gods) as central to morality, and many view atheists with suspicion and scorn. To evaluate intuitions regarding a causal link between religion and morality, this paper tested intuitive moral judgments of atheists and other groups. Across five experiments (N=1,152), American participants intuitively judged a wide variety of immoral acts (e.g., serial murder, consensual incest, necrobestiality, cannibalism) as representative of atheists, but not of eleven other religious, ethnic, and cultural groups. Even atheist participants judged immoral acts as more representative of atheists than of other groups. These findings demonstrate a prevalent intuition that belief in God serves a necessary function in inhibiting immoral conduct, and may help explain persistent negative perceptions of atheists. http//journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0092302

You are now officially insane.

You are suggesting that nobody who believes in the existence of a God can commit crimes. I think any honest member of this forum or human being in general will disagree with you. That is just EVIDENTLY WRONG. On top of that, rather disturbing and offensively, you are trying to indirectly imply that the entire world's prison population is atheists who are lying?

You have to be MAD to believe in something like that. I am no longer sure about your mental state.

Show me where I claimed majority in the jail are atheist.
I already told you about the environment of jail. Any psychopath can lie. Even a Muslim, hindu or Buddhist criminal can claim to be Christian just so he become free or feel that he has got God in christ.

As far as Islamic reformation goes, I think the Quranist movement should get to become the mainstream one if we are to have a peaceful Islamic world.

Its just not gonna happen.

I also happen to think that whether bombing is humanitarian or evil depends on the situation. It has nothing to do with my atheism. I'm sure you'll find many muslims on this site who'd agree with me that depending on the circumstance, killing is fine.

Bombing can't be humanitarian because it does sometimes kill civilians.

What some one atheist professor did wherever cannot be used to make every atheist look like that. Do you have any idea how much forcing religious people do over non-religious ones? Did you ever look at the parts of the world where religion dominates?

He isn't the only one. I just gave one example of intolerance.

Do you have any idea how much forcing religious people do over non-religious ones? Did you ever look at the parts of the world where religion dominates?Even in secular countries, the religious ones tries constantly to have prayers in schools, they even printed that idea on the bank notes and constantly tries to put up religious monuments in public buildings.

In American classroms, this is considered as disrespect.

Please don't try to make it sound like you live in a world where atheists are persecuting God believers more than God believers are violating human rights of the atheists on a daily basis and force feed their dogma to the atheists on a daily basis all around the world depending on how powerful a certain religious group is in that part of that world.

They surely aren't doing now....but people do have bizarre feeling that they should get rid of those who don't agree with them. That is why, we God alone people are supposed to be killed if found in Afghanistan.

You say that other atheists can be unlike me. So could other God believers. I know God believers who are murderers and rapists and corrupt traitors. Now what? Should I start having a panic attack about anything who believes in a God just because someone else could be less peaceful person than you are?

Try arguing with an atheist about sexual liberation.

If you want to be afraid of atheists/secular people being criminals, first show us the evidence. I have been asking for it for a long time now. Have written chapter books on it in this thread. Yet you refuse to bring any evidence. All you do is keep asserting or implying that prison population throughout the entire world, which is a very good source to prove your case, is full of 100% liars who are all atheists pretending to believe in Gods.

Answered above.

I kinda think that I could call the mods on you for suggesting such things about entire groups of people. I don't want to make things dirty. So I'll just ask you and request that you do not ever try to imply something that horrendous about us atheists and demonize us to that point. Either show the evidence for that or know that just like your belief in God, you have no evidence to show for this belief.

That's another major league bullshit. A scientist who could prove God would immediately win a Nobel prize and be the greatest scientist ever. Due to my extensive exposure to these things, I do know what you are referring to. What happens is that some pseudo scientists loses their reputation in the scientific community by publishing papers based on arguments from ignorance to invoke God. Basically, they find things they can't explain and go like "Just because I don't know how it could have happened, therefore God". That is the fastest way to lose respect in the scientific community. There are elite level God believing scientists too. They just aren't dishonest pricks like the ones you think "faces problem for coming up with theories of God".

If you disagree, please give me the name of one such scientist and I will tell you exactly why he became a laughing stock in academia. I have studied these cases a lot when I was a Muslim.

P.S. If you still keep stating that all the people in the world who are going to prison for committing crime, or even lucky and got away with their crimes, are all atheist, without evidence, then A, I'll report you to the moderators. B, you can forget having a discussion with me.

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5EPymcWp-g
Its kind of strange that you make long posts, but you never seem to say anything about the paragraphs from Protocols of Learned Elders of Zion.

Call the mods. I wholeheartedly welcome you to do it. Don't let the urge go unsatisfied. I am taken by your tolerance D
http//i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm224/Dolls2008/Doll%20Tags/Animated/Roses.gif

Student_of_Allah

Shalom Aleikhem,

Thank you for the link. I have watched it now .

For real?

Here is one example ,from many others, of my understanding of "Intelligent design"

The human start life as one cell,before becoming a baby. That cell has a DNA structure that instruct it to grow /become many cells,then different organs each organ very complex and with a different task and role for the body. Surely An "Intelligent programmer,designer" has designed/created such a complex system?

And how do I know that? How do you know that "surely" it had to be an intelligent designer?

I understand that it is complex. What I don't get is how you look at something that complex and just conclude that it had to have an intelligent designer. We have an understanding of how that process takes place. However, let us ignore that scientific knowledge for now. I am interested in knowing why you say that "surely an intelligent designer did it"?

Also, can we please move this discussion to the science section? We can discuss topic wise. Take our time to learn about each others view points and investigate deeper? We are both trying to get at the truth here, it'll do us no good to start talking about several complicated topics at once. Do you agree?

My belief in Qoran,and you may already know this,is my own research and checking of the "interlock" system . Impossible for any human to compose a book and Mathematically seal it . To be aware of the count of each letter,word sentence and chapter and place them exactly with mathematical accuracy to produce a full book that is both a literacy and numeracy masterpiece.

That is something I, when I was a Muslim, along with many other believers of the Qur'an, rejected as nothing more than numerology kinda thing. Sorry that I can't think of a better word for it right now. However, we can discuss this "interlocking miracle" in another thread perhaps. I am open to that.

I read your posts to "reel" and others. There are many issues and assumptions from both sides with defining many things including a "believer", a "disbeliever"...etc That is where there are differences and misunderstandings.
For example not every religious person is a "believer"? Like not every Atheist is a "disbeliever"? etc

I am using the most literal dictionary definition of the word. Since the topic here is Atheism, a believer then would be one who believes in the existence of a God, in this context Allah the creator, and a disbeliever would be one who doesn't believe in the existence of that God. I understand that you can have your own definition of the word but I am not using that. So please read my exchanges with others with this in mind that I mean the things I said above when I am talking about a believer or a disbeliever.

P.S. I think the exchange with Reel has come to an end. What is the point in writing so much and going into so much detail about things when the person clearly baseless-ly accuses entire groups of people branding them as criminals and the only criminals on earth. Imagine how you'd feel if I was continuously trying to tell you here about how you ought to be a terrorist if you are a Muslim. Imagine how infuriating it would be if I even refused to provide evidence that all Muslims are terrorists and started suggesting that all the other non-Muslim terrorists are liars who are actually Muslims pretending to be non-Muslims! If someone joined this forum today and went around demonized Muslims saying things like that, I'm pretty sure they'd have a difficult time with the moderators.

I don't know if you have read my exchanges with her. The irony here lies in the fact that her behavior testifies to the fact that belief in a God alone doesn't make one behave better than an atheist. If that was the case, I, Student of Allah the atheist would be the one demonizing all Muslims here, not reel, the God believer.

Peace
----------- Student of Allah

good_logic

Peace Student Of Allah.

I agree with you. Discussing Science,existence of GOD and numeracy of Qoran are off topic here.

I will make this post my last one in this thread. But will have conversations with you elsewhere if requested.

Now i will clarify for you what I mean by a "believer" according to Qoran

If I say I believe in GOD I also have to believe GOD. There is a difference. If I only believe in GOD but not believe HIM, then I will not take HIS words/instructions seriously. Therefore it is a "lip service" from my part, a lie,many do that in the "religions".

So according to Qoran you have to believe in GOD and believe GOD. Both have to go hand in hand . Only then, you will be unlikely to "rape" and "murder" if you are a believer. Of course there are other "humans" who are not believers but do not "rape" and "murder".

I was giving you an example of a believer in GOD.

In the same manner, Atheist may be disbelieving the human who says there is a GOD. As far as Qoran is concerned that is not a "disbeliever".
A disbeliever according to Qoran is the one who knows/acknowledge there is a GOD,but ignores HIS words/instruction and acts against them,i.e opposes/disbelieves GOD s words .

GOD bless you.
Peace.

reel

P.S. I think the exchange with Reel has come to an end. What is the point in writing so much and going into so much detail about things when the person clearly baseless-ly accuses entire groups of people branding them as criminals and the only criminals on earth.

I thought you were the one who claimed that majority in the jail are from religions....and I did not even accuse you of thinking that religious folks are all criminals. You even said that without Quran, I would be a child molester. You have also used an obscene word throughout your post.

I think the exchange with Reel has come to an end. What is the point in writing so much and going into so much detail about things when the person clearly baseless-ly accuses entire groups of people branding them as criminals and the only criminals on earth. Imagine how you'd feel if I was continuously trying to tell you here about how you ought to be a terrorist if you are a Muslim. Imagine how infuriating it would be if I even refused to provide evidence that all Muslims are terrorists and started suggesting that all the other non-Muslim terrorists are liars who are actually Muslims pretending to be non-Muslims! If someone joined this forum today and went around demonized Muslims saying things like that, I'm pretty sure they'd have a difficult time with the moderators.

A little bizarre. You don't want to discuss how protocols of learned elders of zion has on the society...mainly the two paragraphs I posted earlier? What about the test about "Oh God, I wish you would kill my parents?" Now that we were going somewhere about the existence of God I feel bad that you wish to end it. But I'll let you go because from your last post it is clear how it would go. Once again, I encourage you to call the mods. Please please. By the way, we are used to being demonized here. It did not make me feel bad because I have truth by my side.

savage_carrot

Did someone call? Oh well, I'm here anyways.

This was getting really interesting and I liked where reel was going...SoA, don't you think you're being a wee bit melodramatic? You come on pretty strong yourself, didn't think one poster could make you run off.

In case the taunts worked, feel free to carry on the discussion, keeping it to the point and avoiding personal attacks. Thanks.

Student_of_Allah

Are you insulting the men of this forum? Aren't they evidence? Do you believe these men even after taking the Quranic path will rape?

No. I never said a word about the men on this forum. Please quote me where I did so.

What would they be evidence of? I never talked about anybody else BUT YOU.

I have no idea about which member of this forum will end up raping anyone. I have no reason to believe that joining this forum and following Qur'an alone makes anyone more or less likely to be a rapist than not joining this forum and not following your book. Bad people do bad things, irrespective of whatever label you put on them.

He did tell us there will be bad things. But from atheistic point of view, why don't you tell us why rape exists when people are naturally compassionate and hate to see the bad?
Yeah only if God was like human.

So God telling you that there will be bad things is reason enough to let him off the hook of responsibility? That's a very unreasonable thing to say. You think if I program robots who I know will kill your parents and then just say "There will be bad things", then I am no longer responsible after they go and butcher your family? No you don't. So don't have the double standard when it comes to God.

When did I say that people can only be compassionate and hate to see bad stuff? From this statement of yours alone, I can deduce that either you aren't reading what I am writing, or you are simply incapable of understanding. Let me quote what I said

That is not true. I don't know about the type of person you are. However, doesn't go around raping and murdering or abusing little kids because there are laws against those things. Our built in instincts nurtured by values that reflects the basic premises of well-being I discussed earlier (health being preferred over sickness,etc) is what makes us moral. The law is there to penalize the ones going against those things only.
Emanuel's writings are extremely polarized and focuses solely on the dark side. Which is NOT THE TRUE PICTURE. Yes I have been unkind at times, but just because I have been unkind at times doesn't mean that I am some kind of volcano oozing out unkindness. That is what Emanuel has done with his post. He absolutely ignored all pros of homosapiens and wrote solely about the cons. And modeled homosapiens only after that, making us look like the monsters that WE ARE NOT. It's like someone saying "Homosapiens can be forgiving. Therefore they are only able to forgive. They can't ever hold anything against anyone". It's just as flawed as that. Don't know why you can't see through his extremely polarised analysis of homosapiens. On top of that, why would you share his post to make the point? There have been countless peer reviewed journals and books published on the nature of Man. What makes Emanuel's polarized opinions trump all of that research? Your bias perhaps?

That is what I said and you twisted it to make it sound THE EXACT OPPOSITE! I never took a polarized position on the issue of us being good/evil. I CLEARLY STATED that it is not that black and white. I did state that we have the ability to do bad and good both. Whereas you were trying to promote the idea presented by Emanuel that it's only bad that we can do.

Please do not twist my words to mean the exact opposite of what I said.
The answer to your question is that bad people will do bad and it is our responsibility to do everything we can to make sure we can keep them from doing bad.

Your analogy is connected to separation between the bot and its creator. This does not apply to God.

Well then you just dug your God a deeper grave. Now he is all the more responsible as he presumably is connected to the criminals and victims. How does being connected make him not responsible? If you were connected to a women being raped and the rapist and you could stop that from happening, would you be like "Damn it! I am connected to them! Let's just let her get raped."?

True because it is beyond your reality. You are trying to know it through your limited knowledge you gained from today's scientific thinking.

I am your God. The reason you don't get it is because "You are trying to know it through your limited knowledge"

So convenient, isn't it?

Once again, you are applying your limited reality to understand God. He has his own rules which we still are not capable of understanding. However, we do know that he listens to us when we need something. I at least got surprising benefits despite not taking any steps. Now would you say it was sheer luck and not answer from God? If you choose luck then you know that there is no scientific proof that it exists. I posted a reply for you in another thread. I am pasting the link here. After reading it through, explain to us by using science why these things are happening
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607936.20

Once again, you are applying your limited reality to understanding the fact that I am your God. I have my own rules which you still are not capable of understanding............................

Does saying that make it true? If not, you should understand why you explained NOTHING. You answered NOTHING.

Which question did I skip?

Ignore it. I have come to realize after thousands of words (my bad) that you are not here for that. You will just make big claims and always avoid providing evidence. You will refuse to explain how you resolve any dilemma I present to you beyond saying things like "your human mind can't understand it". If that is a good explanation for why you are correct, then me claiming to be your God and saying "your human mind can't understand it" should equally be a good explanation for me actually being your God.

GERMAN SCIENTISTS PROVE THERE IS LIFE AFTER DEATH
http//worldnewsdailyreport.com/german-scientists-prove-there-is-life-after-death/

Can you please link me to the peer reviewed scientific journal where this was published? It is not a matter which should go unnoticed by the scientific community at large. Therefore I am astonished to see no Nobel Prize being awarded to that team. Forget Nobel Prize, didn't even hear about this despite being a geek in this field. If they indeed published their findings in a reputed peer reviewed scientific journal and got their works double checked by others and validated, I HAVE NO PROBLEM in accepting that there is life after death. However, I must first verify that it's a legitimate thing. One doesn't and shouldn't conclude factual matters of scientific inquiry from articles on news sites like that. So please link me to that paper and I will come back and tell you what I think and also let the entire scientific world know that someone deserves a Nobel prize.

In his hands??? He isn't a human. However, if you are pointing to quranic term "hand" then do note that it means ability. I can't speak about a God who is human like!

http//media2.theranking.com/card/12247/image/5e56343dada029d40a90b44e1ca3d495/resize_image.jpg

Really? When someone says a sentence like "Donna took matters into her own hands", you think that they are talking about Donna actually carrying stuff around in her hands? If not, why are you making a big deal out of this? Do I also have to tell you from now on that when I say Thursday, it has nothing to do with Thor?

You say you can't speak about a God who is human like. The last time I checked, humans were the only species known to author books/ keep records. I won't even get into the fact that your model of God possesses many of the the traits that evolution drilled into animals over the years. It's a total anthropomorphic character.

Don't you think you are contradicting? When you talk about God you see rape and murder, but when it comes to atheism you claim that humans are naturally moral. Don't you think this is a bias? I don't know where you live, but what Emanuel wrote is something we see in the west a lot.

Again! You've done it again! Since it's from the same post, I won't count this as a repeated offence. However, please scroll up and read what I've said about you twisting my words to mean the exact opposite of what I said. I never ever implied that we are only capable of being moral naturally. Please scroll up and read what I am writing before strawmaning me.

What is diff between belief in a religion versus God? Just because I did not mention atheism as the other religion does not mean that is not true.

Again! No clue what you are talking about.

What I was trying to explain to you is that saying something is a phenomenon is different than saying something is a belief. My emphasis wasn't on the word God or religion. If you now ask how a phenomenon is different than a belief, then maybe this will help

A phenomenon is a fact or situation that is observed to exist or happen, especially one whose cause or explanation is in question.

A belief is an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

I provided. I saw God. The description given above is the evidence of it. Feel free to start researching to know what I said is true. Don't wait for other researchers. Also I have actually told you in another thread to do something so you may find your own result without spending a dime. I am pasting it here
Try that test in yourself and see how you react. Try adding in your signature "I wish God would kill my parents" and stay with it for a while with the notion that since God doesn't exist me praying for their harm won't matter.

You provided evidence??????????? hypno

How in the world is you seeing God the same as providing me with evidence? I beg your pardon but how old are you? Just let me know if you are a minor, young adult or just older.

Your TEST is not such a good one given that everybody's parents die from all sorts of reasons all the time. How would I tell the difference from them just dying accidentally or from medical issues as opposed to by my prayers being answered? I have a rock solid way. ) Here it is

Why don't you pray to your God to give my another extra arm. Pray in whichever method you think your God responds the best. If I grew an extra arm, that would be one rock solid evidence that prayers do work. Or does your God get shy when there are no random chances or natural causes to help him out? Is he like that person who can disappear when nobody is looking?

Generalization? Doesn't China exist anymore?

Now I am confident that you are not capable of comprehending what I am writing. Let me break it down for you so that you can understand why I wasn't generalizing. This is what I said verbatim

I, along with virtually all atheists I know do live like there is no tomorrow. Guess what? None of us rape,murder, rob, etc. I understand that if you didn't have someone watching you all the time, you'd probably do all that. Please just don't project them onto us. Ask us first about what we feel like doing instead of projecting your feelings onto us.

So, in context, I was talking about the atheists I know and myself. Not about every damn person who doesn't believe in a God!! That would be an absurd thing to say after writing essays about how atheists are no more criminal than theists.

It just means humans are capable of doing evil, but some who have fear of God would choose to stay on the right track.

Why are you ignoring my kind of people? The complete picture is like this

Humans are capable of doing evil, but some who have fear of God would choose to stay on the right track while there are those who'd choose to stay on the right track because that is the right thing to do, not because of fear of punishment.

Much like I told you before, unlike you, the reason I am not a child molester is not because I was afraid God is watching me. It's because I ON MY OWN don't have the urge to be that evil. So does the bulk of humanity not have that urge. Only a tiny minority of messed up people do. But I can understand if you are naturally that evil.

I did not see anywhere you mentioned that prison population coming from religions did their crimes in the name of God. I told you all the reasons for which we cannot use prison population to understand who commits the most crimes.

What the hell are you talking about? What has in the name of God got to do with anything we are talking about? Did I ever say that the God believers go to prison because they do crimes in the name of God? What are you talking about? Are you even capable of holding a rational discourse?
No, you did not give a single valid reason for why we cannot use the only thing that will tell us about the end result of people's beliefs to society. All you did was to indirectly imply and accuse all of them to be faking beliefs in God and thereby also indirectly saying that only Atheists can commit crime. That is not a valid reason. That is known as a bigoted statement.

But it looks like even atheists agree with me
Scientific research yields inconsistent and contradictory evidence relating religion to moral judgments and outcomes, yet most people on earth nonetheless view belief in God (or gods) as central to morality, and many view atheists with suspicion and scorn. To evaluate intuitions regarding a causal link between religion and morality, this paper tested intuitive moral judgments of atheists and other groups. Across five experiments (N=1,152), American participants intuitively judged a wide variety of immoral acts (e.g., serial murder, consensual incest, necrobestiality, cannibalism) as representative of atheists, but not of eleven other religious, ethnic, and cultural groups. Even atheist participants judged immoral acts as more representative of atheists than of other groups. These findings demonstrate a prevalent intuition that belief in God serves a necessary function in inhibiting immoral conduct, and may help explain persistent negative perceptions of atheists. http//journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0092302

http//www.lindsaydoeslanguages.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/thatfaceicantstoplaughing_0a3b441c09cc3bcd59fc5eee414b263b.gif

So, finally, conclusive evidence that you actually seriously lack in comprehension skills. Did you even bother to read what it says from the start? The study is NOT ABOUT WHETHER ATHEIST COMMIT MORE CRIME OR ARE MORE IMMORAL. The study was about the NEGATIVE PERCEPTION OF ATHEISTS BY OTHERS which CONTRADICTS WHAT WE KNOW FROM WHAT WE HAVE LEARNT SO FAR THROUGH STUDIES. For you, I will make it easier by highlighting this obvious bit you missed out on

Scientific research yields inconsistent and contradictory evidence relating religion to moral judgments and outcomes, yet most people on earth nonetheless view belief in God (or gods) as central to morality, and many view atheists with suspicion and scorn. To evaluate intuitions regarding a causal link between religion and morality, this paper tested intuitive moral judgments of atheists and other groups. Across five experiments (N=1,152), American participants intuitively judged a wide variety of immoral acts (e.g., serial murder, consensual incest, necrobestiality, cannibalism) as representative of atheists, but not of eleven other religious, ethnic, and cultural groups. Even atheist participants judged immoral acts as more representative of atheists than of other groups. These findings demonstrate a prevalent intuition that belief in God serves a necessary function in inhibiting immoral conduct, and may help explain persistent negative perceptions of atheists.

RED Science has already demonstrated that having a religion in no way guarantees moral behavior either through outcome or the judgement.

BLUE Even after science proving that, people still think that religion is necessary for morality and therefore gives atheists a hard time about it!

Green The study demonstrates that in our society people tends to BELIEVE that religion is necessary for morality. THEREFORE, people ends up thinking that atheists are immoral.

It is beyond hilarious that you ended up pasting a study here which absolutely destroys your argument. And remember, who agrees or disagrees with you is irrelevant as long as all the scientific data suggests that what you believe is a load of crap.

Show me where I claimed majority in the jail are atheist.

Go read the part where you tried to imply that the prison population are pretending to be theists.

I already told you about the environment of jail. Any psychopath can lie. Even a Muslim, hindu or Buddhist criminal can claim to be Christian just so he become free or feel that he has got God in christ.

See? This is what I was talking about. Do you also have a memory loss issue? You just asked me to point out where you said any such thing and right after that you go on to state that what is likely is that prison inmates around the globe are all liers who could just be pretending to be believing in Gods.

Bombing can't be humanitarian because it does sometimes kill civilians.

Of course intentionally and unreasonably going around bombing civilians is messed up. However, that doesn't mean that bombing itself because anti-humanity.

He isn't the only one. I just gave one example of intolerance.

& Yeah right! Please tell me more about how the world is dominated by evil atheists who are persecuting religious people on every front.

They surely aren't doing now....but people do have bizarre feeling that they should get rid of those who don't agree with them. That is why, we God alone people are supposed to be killed if found in Afghanistan.

Yes! Please tell us more about how throughout human history, it was always atheists killing religious people for their beliefs. And also tell us more about how atheists are killing God alone folks in Afghanistan as we speak. Right? It can't be other god believers killing them. Right? How could that be?

You say that other atheists can be unlike me. So could other God believers. I know God believers who are murderers and rapists and corrupt traitors. Now what? Should I start having a panic attack about anything who believes in a God just because someone else could be less peaceful person than you are?

Try arguing with an atheist about sexual liberation.

If you want to be afraid of atheists/secular people being criminals, first show us the evidence. I have been asking for it for a long time now. Have written chapter books on it in this thread. Yet you refuse to bring any evidence. All you do is keep asserting or implying that prison population throughout the entire world, which is a very good source to prove your case, is full of 100% liars who are all atheists pretending to believe in Gods.

Answered above.

I will just leave it there for people to see just how crazy and irrelevant your responses are. That is why I made sure what you were responding to can be seen in the quotes so that people can tell for a certainty that you aren't even reading before responding.

Call the mods. I wholeheartedly welcome you to do it. Don't let the urge go unsatisfied. I am taken by your tolerance

I'll leave it up to the mods. If they decide that portraying atheists like that counts as hate speech, they can warn you. In a weird way, I don't want them to delete anything you've written. The reason being that there are many rational people here who will read all these exchanges and will get to see why I will stop responding to you here from now on. The following are just a few ones I will point out

You lack basic comprehension skills of written words at least. That means that it's a waste of time responding to you.
You respond with total non-sequitur. I could be asking you about thermodynamics and you'd respond back saying "Potatoes are tasty".
You demonize atheists and sound like those Mullahs that managed to make sure that a lot of Muslims hold an unwarranted grudge against jews and a very skewed perception of them.
Also that you try to quote mine scientific papers while embarrassingly not realizing how the paper is about your argument being wrong. When that's the way you skim through scientific papers, there is no way anyone with any self respect will ever want to discuss matters of truth with you.

May peace be with you.

Peace
------------------ Student of Allah

Student_of_Allah

Shalom Aleikhem SC,

Did someone call? Oh well, I'm here anyways.

This was getting really interesting and I liked where reel was going...SoA, don't you think you're being a wee bit melodramatic? You come on pretty strong yourself, didn't think one poster could make you run off.

In case the taunts worked, feel free to carry on the discussion, keeping it to the point and avoiding personal attacks. Thanks.

I ACTUALLY do think I was being a bit melodramatic.

It isn't about my strength. I was just a bit put off by the hypocrisy of the whole thing. I am pretty sure that if a new guy came in here trash talking about all Muslims and trying to demonize them to the point reel was trying to demonize atheist, people would say something to that d*ck. And when moderators later come in to see the drama, I'm sure they wouldn't ask the Muslims on here to be strong. They'd go after the bigot.

But hey! Not everyone believes in fairness, equality and justice for all (irrespective of them arguing for or against your side). And no, I am not asking any mods to do anything about it. I've changed my mind. It'd be a petty thing to be upset over. I mean it's not like someone repetitively tried to portray all Muslims as evil.

Peace
--------------- Student of Allah

savage_carrot

If I was going to be put off by all the hypocrites/hypocrisy I see online or offline, I'd probably just stay a hermit. It would appear that being engaged on different fronts may be a factor in the exasperation and melodrama, I'd suggest just keeping it to one discussion.

People trash talk and demonize almost every conceivable group of people on here at one point or another even if they can't discern it themselves and even if it's cleverly disguised or just your run of the mill snide comments what have you...when it gets to the point that that is all they ever do, that's probably the right time for the mods to step in. Unless they're just one big troll from the get go. No one wants to keep enforcing playground rules for adults every little time something flares up, and we shouldn't have to either. Sometimes what seems like a big deal to the participants is not the way a third party sees it, even if they believe in fairness, equality and justice for all. But hey, feel free to keep doing what you do, mi casa es su casa.

Further discussion should be on topic, please. PM otherwise.

reel

Did someone call? Oh well, I'm here anyways.

This was getting really interesting and I liked where reel was going...SoA, don't you think you're being a wee bit melodramatic? You come on pretty strong yourself, didn't think one poster could make you run off.

In case the taunts worked, feel free to carry on the discussion, keeping it to the point and avoiding personal attacks. Thanks.

Thanks for liking it

No. I never said a word about the men on this forum. Please quote me where I did so.

What would they be evidence of? I never talked about anybody else BUT YOU.

I am a rapist?

I have no idea about which member of this forum will end up raping anyone. I have no reason to believe that joining this forum and following Qur'an alone makes anyone more or less likely to be a rapist than not joining this forum and not following your book. Bad people do bad things, irrespective of whatever label you put on them.

Now you are getting it.

So God telling you that there will be bad things is reason enough to let him off the hook of responsibility? That's a very unreasonable thing to say. You think if I program robots who I know will kill your parents and then just say "There will be bad things", then I am no longer responsible after they go and butcher your family? No you don't. So don't have the double standard when it comes to God.

Make him "responsible" then

When did I say that people can only be compassionate and hate to see bad stuff? From this statement of yours alone, I can deduce that either you aren't reading what I am writing, or you are simply incapable of understanding. Let me quote what I said

Your words Imagine taking a knife and shoving it into the eye socket of a baby while using a drilling machine to brutalize the anus of the baby.
Did that thought disturb you? Was there a discomfort involved in your head when you were visualizing doing that? Or did it feel just like being asked to read a newspaper? If it felt horrible, then you, like 99.99% of human beings have a built in sense for this. That built in sense is what guides you. It is not perfect but works. If it felt just as normal as reading a newspaper, please see a psychiatrist and a neurosurgeon ASAP!

That is what I said and you twisted it to make it sound THE EXACT OPPOSITE! I never took a polarized position on the issue of us being good/evil. I CLEARLY STATED that it is not that black and white. I did state that we have the ability to do bad and good both. Whereas you were trying to promote the idea presented by Emanuel that it's only bad that we can do.

Please do not twist my words to mean the exact opposite of what I said.
The answer to your question is that bad people will do bad and it is our responsibility to do everything we can to make sure we can keep them from doing bad.

In that sense, why don't you show us a strategic plan on how to make people moral without the use of any scriptures.

Well then you just dug your God a deeper grave. Now he is all the more responsible as he presumably is connected to the criminals and victims. How does being connected make him not responsible? If you were connected to a women being raped and the rapist and you could stop that from happening, would you be like "Damn it! I am connected to them! Let's just let her get raped."?

I told you to test the concept of God not being separate from us. Maybe it will help you get to your answers?

I am your God. The reason you don't get it is because "You are trying to know it through your limited knowledge"

So convenient, isn't it?

Once again, you are applying your limited reality to understanding the fact that I am your God. I have my own rules which you still are not capable of understanding............................

Does saying that make it true? If not, you should understand why you explained NOTHING. You answered NOTHING.

Do you really really feel you know everything because I don't. Humans are limited by their bounded rationality. I saw God and got totally confused because my reality did not prepare me for it. How convenient of me, right? But hey you have the full freedom to test my claim in the lab.

I am your God.

Once again, you are applying your limited reality to understanding the fact that I am your God. I have my own rules which you still are not capable of understanding............................

Does saying that make it true? If not, you should understand why you explained NOTHING. You answered NOTHING.

Nope, we are within God, but we are not God. We die, he lives. Test it.

Ignore it. I have come to realize after thousands of words (my bad) that you are not here for that. You will just make big claims and always avoid providing evidence. You will refuse to explain how you resolve any dilemma I present to you beyond saying things like "your human mind can't understand it". If that is a good explanation for why you are correct, then me claiming to be your God and saying "your human mind can't understand it" should equally be a good explanation for me actually being your God.

I am pasting here what I gave you in another thread

About the evidence thing, worldwide, plenty of people reported that God listened to their prayer, cured them, made them rich, etc. I am not sure how this isn't an evidence of his existence and why it is hard to believe them when we are ready to buy other studies based on people's opinions.That said, Clinical studies similar to it are also available

Believers have thicker brain cortex than others and that makes them stronger in fighting depression.
http//www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2531622/People-religious-spiritual-thicker-brains-Those-believe-god-deeper-outer-layer.html

Let me give some more. Found one article which has most of it. But if you are in university you may find hundreds of journal articles on this topic.

In 1990, the American Journal of Psychiatry discovered believers with broken hips were less depressed, had shorter hospital stays and could even walk further when they were discharged compared to their similarly broken-hipped and hospitalised, but comparatively heathen peers.
In 2006, the American Society of Hypertension established that church-goers have lower blood pressure than the non-faithful.
Likewise, in 2004, scholars at the University of California, Los Angeles, suggested that college students involved in religious activities are more likely to have better mental and emotional health than those who do not.
research in 2002 showed that believers have more success with IVF than non-believers.
A 1999 study found that going to a religious service or saying a few prayers actively strengthened your immune system.
In 1998, the American Journal of Public Health found that depressed patients with a strong ?intrinsic faith? (a deep personal belief, not just a social inclination to go to a place of worship) recovered 70 per cent faster than those who did not have strong faith.
Another study, in 2002, showed that prayer reduced ?adverse outcomes in heart patients?.
In 2008, Professor Andrew Clark of the Paris School of Economics and Doctor Orsolya Lelkes of the European Centre for Social Welfare Policy and Research conducted a vast survey of Europeans. They found that religious believers, compared to non-believers, record less stress, are better able to cope with losing jobs and divorce, are less prone to suicide, report higher levels of self-esteem, enjoy greater ?life purpose? and report being more happy overall.
a study of nearly 4,000 older adults for the U.S. Journal of Gerontology revealed that atheists had a notably increased chance of dying over a six-year period than the faithful.Crucially, religious people lived longer than atheists even if they didn?t go regularly to a place of worship. This study clearly suggests there is a benefit in pure faith alone ? perhaps this religiousness works by affording a greater sense of inner purpose and solace in grief.
twin studies (research on identical siblings who are separated at birth) show that religion is a heritable characteristic if one twin is religious, the other is likely to be a believer as well, even when raised by different parents.
source http//www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1358421/The-tantalising-proof-belief-God-makes-happier-healthier.html
I have always found the one below interesting.

The findings of Bruce Hood, professor of developmental psychology at Bristol University, suggest that magical and supernatural beliefs are hardwired into our brains from birth, and that religions are therefore tapping into a powerful psychological force.His work is supported by other researchers who have found evidence linking religious feelings and experience to particular regions of the brain.
They suggest people are programmed to receive a feeling of spirituality from electrical activity in these areas.
The findings challenge atheists such as Richard Dawkins, the author of The God Delusion, who has long argued that religious beliefs result from poor education and childhood 'indoctrination'.
Professor Hood believes it is futile to try to get people to abandon their beliefs because these come from such a 'fundamental level'.
'Our research shows children have a natural, intuitive way of reasoning that leads them to all kinds of supernatural beliefs about how the world works,' he said.
'As they grow up they overlay these beliefs with more rational approaches but the tendency to illogical supernatural beliefs remains as religion.'
The professor, who will present his findings at the British Science Association's annual meeting this week, sees organised religion as just part of a spectrum of supernatural beliefs.

In one study he found even ardent atheists balked at the idea of accepting an organ transplant from a murderer, because of a superstitious belief that an individual's personality could be stored in his or her organs.
To reinforce his point, Professor Hood produced a blue cardigan during a lecture and invited the audience to put it on, for a ?10 reward. This prompted a sea of raised hands to volunteer.
He then said that the notorious murderer Fred West wore the cardigan, causing most to put their hand down.
Although it was merely a stunt - the cardigan was not West's - the professor said this showed that even the most rational of people can be irrationally made to feel uncomfortable.
Another experiment involved asking subjects to cut up a treasured photograph. When his team then measured their sweat production - which is what lie-detector tests monitor - there was a jump in the reading. This did not occur when destroying an object of less sentimental significance.
'This shows how superstition is hardwired into our brains,' he added.

sourcehttp//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211511/Why-born-believe-God-Its-wired-brain-says-psychologist.html

The heads and hearts of atheists may not be on precisely the same page. That?s the implication of recently published research from Finland, which finds avowed non-believers become emotionally aroused when daring God to do terrible things.

?The results imply that atheists? attitudes toward God are ambivalent, in that their explicit beliefs conflict with their affective response,? concludes a research team led by University of Helsinki psychologist Marjaana Lindeman. Its study is published in the International Journal for the Psychology of Religion.

Lindeman and her colleagues describe two small-scale experiments. The first featured 17 Finns, recruited online, who expressed high levels of belief, or disbelief, in God. They read out loud a series of statements while skin conductance data was collected via electrodes placed on two of their fingers.

Some of the statements were direct dares to a deity (?I dare God to make my parents drown?). Others were similarly disturbing, but did not reference God (?It?s OK to kick a puppy in the face?). Still others were bland and neutral (?I hope it?s not raining today?).
The arousal levels of the believers and non-believers followed precisely the same pattern Higher for both the God dares and otherwise unpleasant statements, and lower for the neutral ones. source http//www.salon.com/2013/04/27/do_atheists_secretly_believe_in_god_partner/

Try that test in yourself and see how you react. Try adding in your signature "I wish God would kill my parents" and stay with it for a while with the notion that since God doesn't exist me praying for their harm won't matter.

Can you please link me to the peer reviewed scientific journal where this was published? It is not a matter which should go unnoticed by the scientific community at large. Therefore I am astonished to see no Nobel Prize being awarded to that team. Forget Nobel Prize, didn't even hear about this despite being a geek in this field. If they indeed published their findings in a reputed peer reviewed scientific journal and got their works double checked by others and validated, I HAVE NO PROBLEM in accepting that there is life after death. However, I must first verify that it's a legitimate thing. One doesn't and shouldn't conclude factual matters of scientific inquiry from articles on news sites like that. So please link me to that paper and I will come back and tell you what I think and also let the entire scientific world know that someone deserves a Nobel prize.

Don't worry, peer reviewed scientific journal will come one day. Meanwhile, enjoy this
Scientist Quantum physics can prove there's an afterlife
http//www.cnet.com/news/scientist-quantum-physics-can-prove-theres-an-afterlife/

Really? When someone says a sentence like "Donna took matters into her own hands", you think that they are talking about Donna actually carrying stuff around in her hands? If not, why are you making a big deal out of this? Do I also have to tell you from now on that when I say Thursday, it has nothing to do with Thor?

What I meant God doesn't have hands and legs the way you are describing him.

You say you can't speak about a God who is human like. The last time I checked, humans were the only species known to author books/ keep records. I won't even get into the fact that your model of God possesses many of the the traits that evolution drilled into animals over the years. It's a total anthropomorphic character.

Tie the concept of God I gave you with your total anthropomorphic character

Again! You've done it again! Since it's from the same post, I won't count this as a repeated offence. However, please scroll up and read what I've said about you twisting my words to mean the exact opposite of what I said. I never ever implied that we are only capable of being moral naturally. Please scroll up and read what I am writing before strawmaning me.

The para in question has been given above.

A phenomenon is a fact or situation that is observed to exist or happen, especially one whose cause or explanation is in question.

A belief is an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

For humans, both go hand in hand.
Example Why is it that so many people around the world believe in God?

How in the world is you seeing God the same as providing me with evidence?

Evidence of what I saw....true meaning The Concept of God.

Your TEST is not such a good one given that everybody's parents die from all sorts of reasons all the time. How would I tell the difference from them just dying accidentally or from medical issues as opposed to by my prayers being answered? I have a rock solid way. Here it is

Then do the signature thing.

Why don't you pray to your God to give my another extra arm. Pray in whichever method you think your God responds the best. If I grew an extra arm, that would be one rock solid evidence that prayers do work. Or does your God get shy when there are no random chances or natural causes to help him out? Is he like that person who can disappear when nobody is looking?

I wouldn't because I accept that I would be nervous about doing such prayer. Also I don't have any wish to participate in freak shows.

Now I am confident that you are not capable of comprehending what I am writing. Let me break it down for you so that you can understand why I wasn't generalizing. This is what I said verbatim

So your "all atheists" are limited to your friends? You don't know richard dawkins, bill maher and the atheist government of china and (earlier) russia?

Humans are capable of doing evil, but some who have fear of God would choose to stay on the right track while there are those who'd choose to stay on the right track because that is the right thing to do, not because of fear of punishment.

Much like I told you before, unlike you, the reason I am not a child molester is not because I was afraid God is watching me. It's because I ON MY OWN don't have the urge to be that evil. So does the bulk of humanity not have that urge. Only a tiny minority of messed up people do. But I can understand if you are naturally that evil.

This discussion is not about you, but atheistic view about morals in general. I am not saying they are child molester. My point is that in a godless society, it is possible to come up with artificial morals to justify ill acts.
Example Richard Dawkins defends ?mild pedophilia,? says it does not cause ?lasting harm?
http//www.salon.com/2013/09/10/richard_dawkins_defends_mild_pedophilia_says_it_does_not_cause_lasting_harm/

Even though words like "sinful" and "evil" come naturally to the tongue as say a description of child molesting. They do not describe any actual properties of anything. There are no literal sins in the world because there is no literal G0d?nothing is literally right or wrong because there is no Morality?yet we human beings can still discover plenty of completely naturally explainable resources for motivating certain preferences. Thus enough of us are sufficiently averse to the molestation of children and would likely continue to be

from Ethics Without Morals In Defence of Amorality- Joel Marks

Where do we draw the line with consequentialists?

What the hell are you talking about? What has in the name of God got to do with anything we are talking about? Did I ever say that the God believers go to prison because they do crimes in the name of God? What are you talking about? Are you even capable of holding a rational discourse?

Your own words
You are the one who wrote that and is making it seem like God believers are all like that or mostly like that and Atheists are are all mostly like that. THAT IS NOT CORRECT. I have told you before and I will demand from you again, please show me a statistics of crime based on people's religious beliefs.

So, finally, conclusive evidence that you actually seriously lack in comprehension skills. Did you even bother to read what it says from the start? The study is NOT ABOUT WHETHER ATHEIST COMMIT MORE CRIME OR ARE MORE IMMORAL. The study was about the NEGATIVE PERCEPTION OF ATHEISTS BY OTHERS which CONTRADICTS WHAT WE KNOW FROM WHAT WE HAVE LEARNT SO FAR THROUGH STUDIES. For you, I will make it easier by highlighting this obvious bit you missed out on

RED Science has already demonstrated that having a religion in no way guarantees moral behavior either through outcome or the judgement.

BLUE Even after science proving that, people still think that religion is necessary for morality and therefore gives atheists a hard time about it!

Green The study demonstrates that in our society people tends to BELIEVE that religion is necessary for morality. THEREFORE, people ends up thinking that atheists are immoral.

I did not mention anything except that even atheists agree with me. This isn't the first time I am reading it. The underlined thing was what I told you to see. So could you explain why even atheists seem to link atheists to immoral acts?

Go read the part where you tried to imply that the prison population are pretending to be theists.

Duh! It is known. My friend works in jail.

See? This is what I was talking about. Do you also have a memory loss issue? You just asked me to point out where you said any such thing and right after that you go on to state that what is likely is that prison inmates around the globe are all liers who could just be pretending to be believing in Gods.

So every country collects the religion data of inmates? And you are sure that an atheist inmate will get away by talking about his belief in places like Egypt, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iran, Kuwait and the list goes on?

Of course intentionally and unreasonably going around bombing civilians is messed up. However, that doesn't mean that bombing itself because anti-humanity.

No, many conflicts can be solved through discussion. But the policy designed for the world is force.

Please tell me more about how the world is dominated by evil atheists who are persecuting religious people on every front.

China?

The mostly Muslim Uighur population of China?s far-western province of Xinjiang has never had it particularly easy when it comes to practicing its faith. Under Mao Zedong, when religion was essentially forbidden throughout China, the state would go to extremes to suppress Islam?like force-feeding candy to Muslim school children to make them break their Ramadan fasts.
source http//www.the-american-interest.com/2012/08/05/beijing-steps-up-persecution-of-muslims-in-xinjiang/

Chinese government urges ABC not to broadcast expose about Beijing's brutal crackdown on Muslim minority Uighurs
The Chinese Government has threatened ramifications if the ABC tonight airs its planned Foreign Correspondent programme
The edition is about China's brutal crackdown on Muslim ethnic minority, the Uighurs
The ABC filmed Uighurs in the far-western Chinese province of Xinjiang
Uighurs wearing veils, beards or Muslim dress are banned from travelling
Activists say Chinese government crackdown has provoked Uighur unrest
China says Uighur activists are 'terrorists'

source http//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2774478/Chinese-government-threat-Australia-ABC-airs-TV-programme-tonight-brutal-treatment-ethnic-Muslim-minority-Uighurs.html#ixzz3qvR2KyzV
Not so different from Saudi Arabia

Yes! Please tell us more about how throughout human history, it was always atheists killing religious people for their beliefs. And also tell us more about how atheists are killing God alone folks in Afghanistan as we speak. Right? It can't be other god believers killing them. Right? How could that be?

Where did I say atheists are killing God alone folks in Afghanistan.

What you are not getting is that when something is taken to an extreme problems occur. We are currently feeling the heat in the form of sexual liberation. Much of the atheist philosophies made to mainstream culture can be found in the book called Unification Ethics of True Love.

I'll leave it up to the mods. If they decide that portraying atheists like that counts as hate speech, they can warn you. In a weird way, I don't want them to delete anything you've written. The reason being that there are many rational people here who will read all these exchanges and will get to see why I will stop responding to you here from now on. The following are just a few ones I will point out

You lack basic comprehension skills of written words at least. That means that it's a waste of time responding to you.
You respond with total non-sequitur. I could be asking you about thermodynamics and you'd respond back saying "Potatoes are tasty".
You demonize atheists and sound like those Mullahs that managed to make sure that a lot of Muslims hold an unwarranted grudge against jews and a very skewed perception of them.
Also that you try to quote mine scientific papers while embarrassingly not realizing how the paper is about your argument being wrong. When that's the way you skim through scientific papers, there is no way anyone with any self respect will ever want to discuss matters of truth with you.

May peace be with you.

Sorry, your personal attack cannot make me forget that once again you avoided making comment on the paragraphs I gave from Protocols of Zion. I hope the next time you will do it. Now before you go around doing more attacks like this let me give a short summary of my belief about this topic.

Any ideology and belief can be twisted to disintegrate a society or call for wars. Only thing needed is a wolf. So just like Abrahamic religions, atheism is vulnerable and as history and present situation of China show it has done damages too.
As I said in one of the earlier posts, it is wrong to consider all atheists to be immoral currently. In fact, for a long time, even I didn't understand the correlation between moral and atheism. But guess what? An ATHEIST came to my rescue. My example of ABC and XYZ is pretty much crafted from her. These are her words

And you know what? I would never vote for an atheist president. Ever? Because I do not think that someone who represents 5 to 10 percent of the population should be representing and thinking that everyone else in the world is crazy, but me.
?
I like that there is a check, OK? That there?s a person in the office that doesn?t think he?s bigger than the state? I like religion being a check and knowing that my president goes home every night addressing someone above him and not thinking all the power resides right here? Atheists don?t have that. by Atheist S.E. Cupp
source http//news.yahoo.com/atheist-e-cupp-never-vote-atheist-president-025658535.html
3. If atheism becomes the most popular thing it will be used for some kind of destruction. It is already "written" and things are going as planned. As I keep saying, we are already experiencing the consequences of sexual liberation which came mainly from atheists like Kinsey and Freud. There are now kids without father, hike in divorce rates and STD's, sexual depiction of women from which they cannot seem to escape, inability to understand the difference between rape and sex based on consent. So although we may not be fighting with one another we are destroying whatever is left of us. This was simply an example of how artificially created moral is working in our country.

Now that I have explained my points, I hope by using your scientific knowledge you would focus on

Why belief in God has positive effect on people and how atheism can provide similar insurance?
If you try to reverse it at me I would say I don't have any answer except that people can reach God through various means. One doesn't necessarily have to be Muslim.
Protocols of Learned Elders of Zion para which seems to be reflection of you and their claim that atheists would turn into a warning for others.
My answer Already planned. But I would like to know from you about the paragraphs.
The concept of God using lab. I don't have access to NASA. Hence, I am unable to provide you my test result. But I am sure you would be able to perform it because you are so scientific!
The signature thing Oh God, I wish you would kill my parents. Your reaction to it.

Feel free to reply to my all the stuffs above, but do note if this time you fail to comment mainly on protocols of zion and report us about your reaction to a signature like "Oh God, I wish you would kill my parents" you know where you stand.

savage_carrot

If atheism becomes the most popular thing it will be used for some kind of destruction. It is already "written" and things are going as planned. As I keep saying, we are already experiencing the consequences of sexual liberation which came mainly from atheists like Kinsey and Freud. There are now kids without father, hike in divorce rates and STD's, sexual depiction of women from which they cannot seem to escape, inability to understand the difference between rape and sex based on consent. So although we may not be fighting with one another we are destroying whatever is left of us. This was simply an example of how artificially created moral is working in our country.
I'm actually interested in the stuff regarding the protocols and the whole atheism connection...sort of came across it before somewhere in passing. The bit above caught my eye though... I get that you're trying to say as a system it will be destructive, but the consequences mentioned have been around in one way or another and more widespread in certain times than others due to different factors. E.g. kids without fathers due to wars/mortality rates/abandonment - illegitimacy, stds prevalent due to prostitution/different cultural norms, women thought of as property and even a lot of them didn't think they could or should refuse much of what was considered normal at the time as opposed to now, they've pretty much been objectified in any era though...not just atheism can cause these, so the consequences in and of themselves don't say much. The unnatural aspect however is what would tell us a lot more though. Was there some other connection perhaps in regards to atheists like Kinsey and Freud bringing the sexual liberation about?

Also would depend on what kind of popularity...and what, if any, kind of system is enforced. Is it popular because circumstances naturally led to such and such evolution or if it's something that you have to espouse or be in an uncomfortable situation, staying power of such etc. I read The Ugly Wife is a Treasure at Home, apparently it was big back in the day but at the same time, people were 'forced' to marry and maintain a family unit. They'd tell you how and when but it was the done thing. That may have changed over time but I guess one can't say that just atheism is what's going to cause it. A person identifying as an atheist and a group of atheists controlling state policy could have different dynamics and ramifications.

We've seen state enforcement of 'religious' policies and state enforcement of 'non-religious' polices and anywhere in between, at the end of the day, it's a mixed bag. Some are awful, some good comparatively, most fall in the middling area. Same for popular concepts. I'd opine that human nature is more to blame than any other thing we can try to lay the blame on. Oh it's God, no it's your heathen ways...nah, it's probably just all you. It's very tempting to absolve ourselves of responsibility and strangely enough, we all do it...whether we say we are believers or not. ?We fool ourselves so much we could do it for a living.?
Stephen King, Duma Key, one of my favorite quotes from the same book is ?God always punishes us for what we can't imagine.? but that's neither here nor there at the moment )

There is probably a connection psychologically though between people throwing off their shackles/traditions and any ideas of a higher power as a chain reaction of sorts. Possibly because any higher power believed to exist previously was due to being told what to believe rather than coming to it on ones own, so it's all pretty connected up there. Throw it all out and it's liberating, gives a heady sense of power and relief? No accountability, I am in control, I will not be beholden to anyone or anything and to thine own self be true and so on. I felt that way when I moved out of my parents house but sadly found myself thrown back into the pan at some point. Would this have an effect on people and their morals? Sure it can. Likewise it could have an effect on those controlling state policy if atheists, but in order to maintain stability and not drop axes on their feet...if they're smart, they'll know how to go about it without inciting destructive ramifications on a mass scale. And not many would be fans of chaos statewide if they want to stay in power. Then again, so many are into short term thinking and self preservation...

There may be overriding factors for causing widespread instability and chaos but I guess it would depend to what end, really. I don't however buy into long term plans of senseless destruction put into place ages ago (like someone mentioned on the forum at one point or two) or yesterday even because it's not like life is a dungeons and dragons game with chaotic-evil immortal cult figures that can only ever justify their existence as long as someone is suffering.

Anyhow, sexual liberation, or let's say for example a particular/popular strain (?) in the US (Jezebel for demonstrative purposes) is unbalanced in areas, but can it be considered a reaction to centuries of repression? Different groups can now be heard and change their circumstances in a better (easier?) way than previously. Normally, these things take their time to settle into a balance and there are fluctuations/extremes in the meanwhile. It's not been that long in the grand scheme of things that women in developed nations actually got more or less equal rights and so on, it's still an ongoing fight in certain areas to change outdated modes of thought. As for the rest of the revolution/liberation, part of it again may stem from reaction which would make it popular...but the other part, that it has unnaturally evolved in a way/been deliberately put into motion is what I'd like to look into.

What do you think about it being a forgery?

reel

I'm actually interested in the stuff regarding the protocols and the whole atheism connection...sort of came across it before somewhere in passing. The bit above caught my eye though

The book deserves a read. Its available all across the internet. Its very eye opening and disturbing, but there is no way to get angry at it because the roadmap is being brought to fruition by generations of people including us all. Majority on the earth never question even the most absurd and false stuffs thrown at them. Even if the thing is false no one is here to fix it. Maslow's hierarchy of needs is an example. It was debunked long time ago but still makes it to even master's level textbooks as truth. It seems only a few professors tell their students that it was a wrong theory.

I get that you're trying to say as a system it will be destructive, but the consequences mentioned have been around in one way or another and more widespread in certain times than others due to different factors. E.g. kids without fathers due to wars/mortality rates/abandonment - illegitimacy, stds prevalent due to prostitution/different cultural norms, women thought of as property and even a lot of them didn't think they could or should refuse much of what was considered normal at the time as opposed to now, they've pretty much been objectified in any era though...not just atheism can cause these, so the consequences in and of themselves don't say much.

The problem is that not the majority of the kids in the nation experience such abandonment.

The unnatural aspect however is what would tell us a lot more though.

Sexual liberation kills love and the diff between what is right and wrong.In the end, we get a bunch of selfish and depressed people. If the world ever becomes completely atheist, majority of the women will still be seen like objects.

Was there some other connection perhaps in regards to atheists like Kinsey and Freud bringing the sexual liberation about?

Yep, Kinsey is know as the father of sexual liberation https//www.nytimes.com/books/97/11/02/reviews/971102.02rhodest.html
Freud contributed the ideas http//www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article850819.ece

Also would depend on what kind of popularity...and what, if any, kind of system is enforced. Is it popular because circumstances naturally led to such and such evolution or if it's something that you have to espouse or be in an uncomfortable situation, staying power of such etc. I read The Ugly Wife is a Treasure at Home, apparently it was big back in the day but at the same time, people were 'forced' to marry and maintain a family unit. They'd tell you how and when but it was the done thing. That may have changed over time but I guess one can't say that just atheism is what's going to cause it. A person identifying as an atheist and a group of atheists controlling state policy could have different dynamics and ramifications.

Depends. The book mentioned that it would serve as the warning for the future generation. From history, we do know that when a group of men is given the right to make up morals humans suffer. I actually don't see much difference between hadith and atheist scholars.

We've seen state enforcement of 'religious' policies and state enforcement of 'non-religious' polices and anywhere in between, at the end of the day, it's a mixed bag. Some are awful, some good comparatively, most fall in the middling area. Same for popular concepts. I'd opine that human nature is more to blame than any other thing we can try to lay the blame on. Oh it's God, no it's your heathen ways...nah, it's probably just all you. It's very tempting to absolve ourselves of responsibility and strangely enough, we all do it...whether we say we are believers or not. ?We fool ourselves so much we could do it for a living.?

That's the reason why I could not be angry with those who wrote the protocols.

Stephen King, Duma Key, one of my favorite quotes from the same book is ?God always punishes us for what we can't imagine.? but that's neither here nor there at the moment

That was nice quote

There is probably a connection psychologically though between people throwing off their shackles/traditions and any ideas of a higher power as a chain reaction of sorts. Possibly because any higher power believed to exist previously was due to being told what to believe rather than coming to it on ones own, so it's all pretty connected up there. Throw it all out and it's liberating, gives a heady sense of power and relief? No accountability, I am in control, I will not be beholden to anyone or anything and to thine own self be true and so on. I felt that way when I moved out of my parents house but sadly found myself thrown back into the pan at some point. Would this have an effect on people and their morals? Sure it can. Likewise it could have an effect on those controlling state policy if atheists, but in order to maintain stability and not drop axes on their feet...if they're smart, they'll know how to go about it without inciting destructive ramifications on a mass scale. And not many would be fans of chaos statewide if they want to stay in power. Then again, so many are into short term thinking and self preservation...

I am scared of intolerance, loss of trust and humanitarian bombing.

There may be overriding factors for causing widespread instability and chaos but I guess it would depend to what end, really. I don't however buy into long term plans of senseless destruction put into place ages ago (like someone mentioned on the forum at one point or two) or yesterday even because it's not like life is a dungeons and dragons game with chaotic-evil immortal cult figures that can only ever justify their existence as long as someone is suffering.

True. It seems their plan is to make atheism a transition. They believe that at one point, people will end up going back to religion, but theirs only.

Anyhow, sexual liberation, or let's say for example a particular/popular strain (?) in the US (Jezebel for demonstrative purposes) is unbalanced in areas, but can it be considered a reaction to centuries of repression? Different groups can now be heard and change their circumstances in a better (easier?) way than previously. Normally, these things take their time to settle into a balance and there are fluctuations/extremes in the meanwhile. It's not been that long in the grand scheme of things that women in developed nations actually got more or less equal rights and so on, it's still an ongoing fight in certain areas to change outdated modes of thought. As for the rest of the revolution/liberation, part of it again may stem from reaction which would make it popular...but the other part, that it has unnaturally evolved in a way/been deliberately put into motion is what I'd like to look into.

After reading the book, I have become very interested in the concept of rights. But what bothers me is that much of how the rights bloomed was already planned. The formula I am seeing is that most of the agenda promotions start in an honest manner. Later they are manipulated.

What do you think about it being a forgery?

That's what the mainstream media has been trying to make us think because you know who controls it. But the more you will read it and look at your surrounding the more you will find yourself baffled. The book is so old, but seems to just describe everything happening in this world. Its like a strategic plan on how to rule. Pretty creepy. Yet I will not blame the authors.