Government=God: Are We going Wrong?
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Odd ways to "describe" the concept of government.
I wonder where the author believes governments came from.
I wonder whether the author thinks there would be no governments if people were just left alone.
I wonder what the author thinks will happen when people and groups are left totally to themselves. Wouldn't there be some informal structures coming up, some leaders?
I wonder whether the author thinks governments really are unnatural and therefore undesired.
I wonder whether the author has studied the presence of gangs in cities.
I wonder whether the author has studied history.It seems to me that the author is him/herself part of an ideology that keeps 'government' as the archenemy.
I find the quoted points full of ideology, not reason. -
Hello,
It is not always because it is against the law only but what is detrimental for the community. The author of the text does seem to think a human government is against God's will but they are only attempting to be representatives in His image, taking care of their population. A justice system can be seen to be implemented to protect the society and to bring someone to justice then you require staff (the police, court etc).
When someone is doing things with the right intention, then God is the government, even if humans run the establishment on Earth.
I know there is a wave of people who for some reason believe God advocates anarchy and I have seen no indications towards that. There were even 'malikat' (rulers) in the scriptures such as Solomon and David. However, I do see indications that God disproves of individual leaders but wishes for many people deciding on matters, but that is somewhat how the governments work today. This is what I deem is the reason why it was disproved that Talut (Saul) and later David and Solomon were to be chosen as kings as the Children of Israel implored God to choose a king for them. But however I cannot see that God disproves of having a government, a council that runs things.
Be safe
Amenuel -
You are right governent is God for many people and they believe in it more than they believe in Allah. Please watch and think for yourself.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6uVV2Dcqt0
Once you realize the anatomy of the state you will now the truth. In my opinion Quran is talking against this system - it is obvious as most prophets discarded the systems in which their people lived it is the same struggle over and over. The "mulk" given by God is different than the rulership that is forced on people. It is something that comes natural (as you have "mulk" over your children, or entrepreneur over his business). There is nothing wrong in people grouping themselves as long as it's voluntary and there is no stealing, opression, coersion involved. It is difficult because we were indoctrinated our whole lives but once you know it everything will set in place. You will understand God better and the way He operates in this world...and His system is freedom (sebili-llah) - everyone will suffer the consequences of their actions.
Once you understand that the way for government to exist it needs to steal (tax) or borrow in the name of unborn children you will see that there is no way anyone can justify it (unless they think stealing/opressing and killing is OK).Ayat that proves that any kind of statism is wrong is "O you who have believed, do not consume one another's wealth unjustly but only business by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves . Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful." (429)
Peace and wassalam.
P.S. If you are interested I can send few more links... -
Governments become Gods when people become herded sheep. Politicians, religious scholars and scientists are Gods. Blindly following any of these is to enslave yourself to them. Both parties, the enlaved and the enslavers have commited shirk. This did not happen by force but by choice.
This is why this world is so corrupt. Quran encourages critical thinking and freedom to either reject the deen(system of God) or abide by it. We can establish Gods system and eradicate all religion, wars, slavery and poverty. This cannot be done with a sheep like mentality which most humans unfortunately choose to live by.
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This did not happen by force but by choice.
Do you have a choice not to play by their rules or the armed thugs will come to your house? Sure there are people who actually believe that they are given provision, security, health, morality or even life by the state, but there are also those who believe in God.
I believe that God's system is established at all times, the enemies are trying to distort its signals (932;933)Wassalam.
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I think that government has been turned into a synonimof orgranizattion. Peopleneed to organize to function as a society ad therefore government. Therein lies the error I think, that organisation continues to be organisations but government does not necessarily become organisation.In fact it can become the opposite.
Today with the treaties and the coming TTip in fact it not only become the enemy of the organisations for the common wealth but it is turned into the Godfathr of transnational coprorations and damn the peoples.
So government in fact is whatever we (meaning we, the people) make ofit or allow to bemade of it. PPresnetly we have allowed government to become highway jackers of the common good.
Salaam
That is the biggest problem.
Odd ways to "describe" the concept of government.
I wonder where the author believes governments came from.
I wonder whether the author thinks there would be no governments if people were just left alone.
I wonder what the author thinks will happen when people and groups are left totally to themselves. Wouldn't there be some informal structures coming up, some leaders?
I wonder whether the author thinks governments really are unnatural and therefore undesired.
I wonder whether the author has studied the presence of gangs in cities.
I wonder whether the author has studied history.It seems to me that the author is him/herself part of an ideology that keeps 'government' as the archenemy.
I find the quoted points full of ideology, not reason.I finally found the main bookhttp//www.mensenrechten.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/the-most-dangerous-superstition-larken-rose-20111.pdf
I read only a bit of it. I don't fully agree with whatever he is saying in it. Would like some citations. Otherwise, it seems as if he is attacking the entire government concept. But so far what I have understood is that he is focusing on how the current government has turned into. I do agree with him that the government is supposed to be the employee of citizens. But that has changed. Now we are the employees and government is the boss -\Hello,
It is not always because it is against the law only but what is detrimental for the community. The author of the text does seem to think a human government is against God's will but they are only attempting to be representatives in His image, taking care of their population. A justice system can be seen to be implemented to protect the society and to bring someone to justice then you require staff (the police, court etc).
When someone is doing things with the right intention, then God is the government, even if humans run the establishment on Earth.
I know there is a wave of people who for some reason believe God advocates anarchy and I have seen no indications towards that. There were even 'malikat' (rulers) in the scriptures such as Solomon and David. However, I do see indications that God disproves of individual leaders but wishes for many people deciding on matters, but that is somewhat how the governments work today. This is what I deem is the reason why it was disproved that Talut (Saul) and later David and Solomon were to be chosen as kings as the Children of Israel implored God to choose a king for them. But however I cannot see that God disproves of having a government, a council that runs things.
Be safe
AmenuelThat's how I feel also. I have come across a few here who object government system. I haven't found that in Quran. Just as you said, Solomon and David are also rulers. They have been denoted as the good ones. Pharaoh, on the other hand, is an example of bad ruler. Now when I think about that I feel that today's governments do imitate him in many ways with
How dare you go against me?
I am always right
Agree with whatever I say or you are a terroristYou are right governent is God for many people and they believe in it more than they believe in Allah. Please watch and think for yourself.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6uVV2Dcqt0
Once you realize the anatomy of the state you will now the truth. In my opinion Quran is talking against this system - it is obvious as most prophets discarded the systems in which their people lived it is the same struggle over and over. The "mulk" given by God is different than the rulership that is forced on people. It is something that comes natural (as you have "mulk" over your children, or entrepreneur over his business). There is nothing wrong in people grouping themselves as long as it's voluntary and there is no stealing, opression, coersion involved. It is difficult because we were indoctrinated our whole lives but once you know it everything will set in place. You will understand God better and the way He operates in this world...and His system is freedom (sebili-llah) - everyone will suffer the consequences of their actions.
Once you understand that the way for government to exist it needs to steal (tax) or borrow in the name of unborn children you will see that there is no way anyone can justify it (unless they think stealing/opressing and killing is OK).Ayat that proves that any kind of statism is wrong is "O you who have believed, do not consume one another's wealth unjustly but only business by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves . Indeed, Allah is to you ever Merciful." (429)
Peace and wassalam.
P.S. If you are interested I can send few more links...What a coincidence! The video comes from the same book ) I don't think government idea itself is bad. But as you said, taxing is one of the biggest problems. Surprisingly, taxes have turned into reason for the huge power government has on people now.
But so far it does seem as if government has replaced God. At least this is the case I see in the west.
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Well the anarchic community is not very large so you will see same people all the time. There are some really smart people out there including Tom Woods, Michael Huemer (with a great book called "The problem of political authority", Mark Passio, Jeff from TheAnarchast youtube channel etc. I do not agree with everything they are saying (some are more eccentric) but I found common grounds ) just like in the (364)
The government idea is very bad because as I said before it is based on stealing, coercion and oppressing. If you are talking about people voluntarily organizing that is not government, and that's fine.
As for the Solomon and David please read the story in Q carefully and see what is it about. Also note that they got the "mulk" directly from God which means it came natural (the most knowledgeable was chosen in the case of 2247 and prior to that people asked for a leader - it was not appointed to them even tough the prophet was among them 2246). Also "mulk" in the Quran in my opinion is not rulership but ownership which is different.
State/government with it's current definition and anatomy is in it's roots evil and cannot be fixed no matter who is the leader.
Wassalam. -
Well the anarchic community is not very large so you will see same people all the time. There are some really smart people out there including Tom Woods, Michael Huemer (with a great book called "The problem of political authority", Mark Passio, Jeff from TheAnarchast youtube channel etc. I do not agree with everything they are saying (some are more eccentric) but I found common grounds just like in the (364)
The government idea is very bad because as I said before it is based on stealing, coercion and oppressing. If you are talking about people voluntarily organizing that is not government, and that's fine.
As for the Solomon and David please read the story in Q carefully and see what is it about. Also note that they got the "mulk" directly from God which means it came natural (the most knowledgeable was chosen in the case of 2247 and prior to that people asked for a leader - it was not appointed to them even tough the prophet was among them 2246). Also "mulk" in the Quran in my opinion is not rulership but ownership which is different.
State/government with it's current definition and anatomy is in it's roots evil and cannot be fixed no matter who is the leader.
Wassalam.Exactly that was my point. But I don't think we can do away with government simply because people intentionally want a leader. Someone will end up in that position even if a country ends up with anarchy. And in today's world, it is pretty dangerous simply because majority of the countries are selfish. Think about Somalia which has no real government. It has been victim of toxic dumping.
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Do you have a choice not to play by their rules or the armed thugs will come to your house?
Yes, you do have a choice. You can choose to be enslaved by them, believe what they say without questioning them, go to war for them(Iraq and Afghanistan), kill fellow humans and come home without any limbs or in a coffin. You can choose to be a tool for them like the rest of humanity has chosen to. Remember, there would be no oppressive governments if people woke up and used their intellect Allah gifted them with. The oppressors are a minority. The Rothschilds and Rockefellers own half of the worlds wealth. Just two families against what? 7 billion people and counting. They can be overthrown like in the French revolution. It is possible. People just need to wake up.
Armed thugs? You mean police, right? A police officer is a policy officer. A police officer enforces government policy. A police officer is not a peace keeper but a mindless drone for the government just like soldiers. Again, if every human used their intellect and heart the Creator gifted them with, there would be NO wars, oppresive rulers, poverty or crime. This happens when we turn our backs on the Creator and reject the perfect system of the Rabb(deen).
"Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah, but whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself. And We have sent you as a messenger to mankind, and Allah is Sufficient as a Witness." (479)
We can accept the Rabb's system(deen), take care of fellow humans and thrive as a whole OR we can reject it and destroy ourselves. This is the true meaning of the above verse.Sure there are people who actually believe that they are given provision, security, health, morality or even life by the state, but there are also those who believe in God.
Believing in God won't get you anywhere in this life and the next. The point of this life is self-realization and accept the system of the Rabb. To realise who you are as a human, a creation of Allah. To know your Creator and connect with the Creator(salat). This is a mental process and has nothing to do with the pagan rituals performed in Islam. To obey the Creator by accepting the decreed system of God(deen). In this way, you will not spread corruption, oppression or bloodshed.
You cannot claim to believe in God if you don't even know God, let alone yourself. This is what religion blinds you from. Self-realization and connecting with the Rabb(salat). religion gives you the illusion of righteousness and keeps you in a herd of sheep.I believe that God's system is established at all times
"Sovereign of the Day of the deen"(14) That day is coming
the enemies are trying to distort its signals (932;933)
"They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it."(932)
http//i.imgur.com/8wm4lbK.jpg
They made a pathetic attempt and they failed.
"Those who disbelieve the Book are certainly losers."(2121)
If you follow anything other than what Allah has revealed, you will be among the losers."It is He who has sent His messenger with guidance and the deen of truth to manifest it over all deen, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it."(933)
Indeed God's system(deen) is the best of systems. The associators may dislike it in this life but they will have no refuge in the next.
"Respond to your Lord before a Day comes from Allah of which there is no repelling. No refuge will you have that day, nor for you will there be any denial."(4247)Read more about the System of God here http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/gods_system/religion.htm
Peace
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Yes, you do have a choice. You can choose to be enslaved by them, believe what they say without questioning them, go to war for them(Iraq and Afghanistan), kill fellow humans and come home without any limbs or in a coffin. You can choose to be a tool for them like the rest of humanity has chosen to. Remember, there would be no oppressive governments if people woke up and used their intellect Allah gifted them with. The oppressors are a minority. The Rothschilds and Rockefellers own half of the worlds wealth. Just two families against what? 7 billion people and counting. They can be overthrown like in the French revolution. It is possible. People just need to wake up.
Armed thugs? You mean police, right? A police officer is a policy officer. A police officer enforces government policy. A police officer is not a peace keeper but a mindless drone for the government just like soldiers. Again, if every human used their intellect and heart the Creator gifted them with, there would be NO wars, oppresive rulers, poverty or crime. This happens when we turn our backs on the Creator and reject the perfect system of the Rabb(deen).
"Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah, but whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself. And We have sent you as a messenger to mankind, and Allah is Sufficient as a Witness." (479)
We can accept the Rabb's system(deen), take care of fellow humans and thrive as a whole OR we can reject it and destroy ourselves. This is the true meaning of the above verse.Believing in God won't get you anywhere in this life and the next. The point of this life is self-realization and accept the system of the Rabb. To realise who you are as a human, a creation of Allah. To know your Creator and connect with the Creator(salat). This is a mental process and has nothing to do with the pagan rituals performed in Islam. To obey the Creator by accepting the decreed system of God(deen). In this way, you will not spread corruption, oppression or bloodshed.
You cannot claim to believe in God if you don't even know God, let alone yourself. This is what religion blinds you from. Self-realization and connecting with the Rabb(salat). religion gives you the illusion of righteousness and keeps you in a herd of sheep."Sovereign of the Day of the deen"(14) That day is coming
"They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it."(932)
http//i.imgur.com/8wm4lbK.jpg
They made a pathetic attempt and they failed.
"Those who disbelieve the Book are certainly losers."(2121)
If you follow anything other than what Allah has revealed, you will be among the losers."It is He who has sent His messenger with guidance and the deen of truth to manifest it over all deen, although they who associate others with Allah dislike it."(933)
Indeed God's system(deen) is the best of systems. The associators may dislike it in this life but they will have no refuge in the next.
"Respond to your Lord before a Day comes from Allah of which there is no repelling. No refuge will you have that day, nor for you will there be any denial."(4247)Read more about the System of God here http//www.free-minds.org/Old/articles/gods_system/religion.htm
Peace
Well, what can I say? I agree with you on everything you said here. As for the books you posted image for I agree but I think they were created to support the ruling class of that time - they had their purpose which is again to perpetuate the slavery.
Thanks for the link I read it is also (maybe instead of capitalism - crony-capitalism).
Wassalam. -
Yes, you do have a choice. You can choose to be enslaved by them, believe what they say without questioning them, go to war for them(Iraq and Afghanistan), kill fellow humans and come home without any limbs or in a coffin.
I really have trouble understanding why people still join military esp in Britain and US. Yeah, I know that most of the kids are from broken homes, but again,the horror stories of what happens to soldiers after the wars are always in the news. Only someone with no brain would ignore it -\
During and immediately after the first Gulf War, more than 200,000 of 700,000 U.S. troops sent to Iraq and Kuwait in January 1991 were exposed to nerve gas and other chemical agents. Though aware of this, the Department of Defense and CIA launched a campaign of lies and concocted a cover-up that continues today.
A quarter of a century later, the troops nearest the explosions are dying of brain cancer at two to three times the rate of those who were farther away. Others have lung cancer or debilitating chronic diseases, and pain.source http//www.newsweek.com/how-us-nerve-gassed-its-own-troops-then-covered-it-317250
More than 3,400 Vietnam-era veterans have helped investigate the generational impact of Agent Orange exposure by sharing their stories with ProPublica and its media partners at NJTODAY, The Virginian-Pilot and other news outlets.
Among those who have come forward are nearly 600 spouses, sons and daughters concerned that their veteran?s health problems ? and sometimes their own ? may be tied to wartime exposure to the toxic chemicals.
The U.S. military sprayed about 19 million gallons of defoliants during the Vietnam War.
The chemicals ? mostly Agent Orange ? killed the jungle brush and denied the enemy cover, but also may have caused cancer and other serious medical ailments in millions of Vietnamese people and American service members. source http//njtoday.net/2015/11/20/vietnam-era-veterans-sharing-stories-of-agent-orange-exposure/
The Rothschilds and Rockefellers own half of the worlds wealth. Just two families against what? 7 billion people and counting. They can be overthrown like in the French revolution. It is possible. People just need to wake up.
Someone should mail all the rothschilds to Sweden because they get the most hate over there.
Believing in God won't get you anywhere in this life and the next. The point of this life is self-realization and accept the system of the Rabb. To realise who you are as a human, a creation of Allah. To know your Creator and connect with the Creator(salat). This is a mental process and has nothing to do with the pagan rituals performed in Islam. To obey the Creator by accepting the decreed system of God(deen). In this way, you will not spread corruption, oppression or bloodshed.
Extremely true
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Peace Invalid777 and everyone,
Remember, there would be no oppressive governments if people woke up and used their intellect Allah gifted them with.
I think you are right/correct. And your words reminds me of a quote.
"It has been usual for men to think and to say, "Many men are slaves because one is an oppressor; let us hate the oppressor." Now, however, there is among an increasing few a tendency to reverse this judgment, and to say, "One man is an oppressor because many are slaves; let us despise the slaves." The truth is that oppressor and slave are cooperators in ignorance, and, while seeming to afflict each other, are in reality afflicting themselves."
- James Allen
I believe that Government is good if the right/proper form of government is established. There is a quote which goes like this
The form of government, when it has been prudently established, produces citizens distinguished for bravery, justice, and every other good quality; whereas, on the other hand, bad institutions render men cowardly, rapacious, and slaves of every foul desire.
- Dionysius of Halicarnassus
By the way, I recommend these posts.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597306.msg377641#msg377641
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607803.msg378198#msg378198
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"I believe that Government is good if the right/proper form of government is established. There is a quote which goes like this "
No there cannot be good government because all are based on bloodshed, stealing and opressing. It's the defintion of govenrment.
It;s like saying there is good robber/killer/opressor. It's a contradiction. Research the anatomy of the state.
Peace. -
"I believe that Government is good if the right/proper form of government is established. There is a quote which goes like this "
No there cannot be good government because all are based on bloodshed, stealing and opressing. It's the defintion of govenrment.
It;s like saying there is good robber/killer/opressor. It's a contradiction. Research the anatomy of the state.
Peace.This would depend on the human character then, who cannot create government without oppression, or who cannot function in societies without government. The issue is not government, but rather that we, the human being, is incapable of living in peace. We are simply not peaceful.
Perhaps we should then instead opt for the least bad of the options. Government is a must. Anarchy is just a temporary step backwards. First you'll have chaos and bad forms of violence and hardship. Then government like structures will form, and we're back where we started, except at a much more primitive stage, where we'd have to invent the wheel again.
We cannot do without governments. We can only make the best we can out of them. People are people.