Whether God could create a God?
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well, I'm Muslim Monotheistic & I'm new on this group.
don't be judge I'm an atheis based on my question above peace
(although I'm an ex-atheist, haha..)
now, let share about our knowledge about God first,
start from this Question.Salaam..
=Marshall=Salaam,
What does the expression "God is The Creator" means to you?
Salaam,
Bender -
if one see that as possible then yes and the results is still one God..
- = ?
It can be
+=
or
+= Impossible
Given to add any number / amount to a number we need to recognize the finite / border / limit of such number first before addition.
And we can't do that for an infinite number given we will count the amount of infinite number until infinity... (no end)..Note This kind of question exist due to the view of "human - like" God..
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sounds like calculus.
it's all about limits
we go to the positive and negative infinityheaven or hell when this rides through.
when you do math are you "physical" on the paper?
what makes you uniquely you?
your intelligence (reference to a. i.) on that paper or just a few numbers your throwing out there into the equation?
numbers are infinite it's it's own world
your pencil "rules" that worldso why make a god who owns a god?
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Hail,
God cannot create Himself but only beings in His image. A father causes creations (sons and daughters), not an identical version of himself and the creations have to grow themselves into what they wish to be based on the provisions from the father.
Paradoxically the two realms, the world (al-ardh) and the origin (al-asema) work the same but physically versus abstractly except the wise one has their foot in the other non-visible world which there are subtle metaphors of in this world.
You will not find God in the Flesh but only mislead yourself. One must look beyond this illusion, contradiction. God is God of the living not the dead. God is Father only of the Spirit and not the Body. The son of the flesh is not alive but dead while they may perceive it not. Your whole purpose is to come alive by cultivating your Spirit's growth. Your Spirit is to be in the same model as God, your Father, but then one cannot be distracted by the Body which was designed to mislead from the start and cloud the Spirit perception and prevent it from cultivating. This was your test. Your test is to manage to see through your deception and find a way out by not desiring to be the Body with all its deceptive impulses. This is Satan's (the Body's instinct) will.
God did not create your Body as a pleasure for you. This is a trap. It is actually just a primate your soul is bound to making it relatively advanced. Its weaknesses causes havoc, just observe the world for an example. The people who have succumbed utterly to the Body ruin the world. It is easier to find a needle in a haystack than to find the flame of their Spirit.
Your Body is not the real you but this is what you are made to believe. The one who finds themself will find the Father for the Father has been there all along yet you could not see it because you were so blind, blinded by your Body. This is because the Spirit's origin is the Father while the Body is of death/lifelessness. God designates dead as being people who simply follow the "automation", i.e the predictable behavior of the bodily species called Homo Sapiens. You can clearly be better than that by finding your true identity.
Rabb is the used word in Arabic and it means something like Developer. Some people have translated Rabbi as teacher, which is a kind of "developer", due to this linguistic phenomenon. Morphologically Rabb means more of "Foundation-Giver". Always hard to find a feasible translation into other languages.
Be safe
Amenuel -
if one see that as possible then yes and the results is still one God..
- = ?
It can be
+=
or
+= Impossible
Given to add any number / amount to a number we need to recognize the finite / border / limit of such number first before addition.
And we can't do that for an infinite number given we will count the amount of infinite number until infinity... (no end)..Note This kind of question exist due to the view of "human - like" God..
Salaam,
Not sure if you meant with "" Allah.
If so then the first "" is not equal to the second "" in your " + ="
The second is always a creation of the former, thus can never be Allah.With other words "Whether God could create a God?" is a flawed question.
There are more of these weird questions, like "Can Allah make a circle which is a square?".Salaam,
Bender -
Salaam,
Not sure if you meant with "" Allah.
If so then the first "" is not equal to the second "" in your " + ="
The second is always a creation of the former, thus can never be Allah.With other words "Whether God could create a God?" is a flawed question.
There are more of these weird questions, like "Can Allah make a circle which is a square?".Salaam,
BenderThat's why I gave 2 options... it depends on one perspective...
But in any case it will not resulted in 2 Gods...
Again this line of question exist due to the view of "human like" God, popular in the western world.
God who envied, God who has enemies, Gof who get angry / pissed off, God who fought a war / battle, God who wrote a book..The flaw is actually on the view of "human like" God itself..
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I.e. the instinctive primate god with the ape's typical fallible traits. It is as primitive as its adherents.
That's why I gave 2 options... it depends on one perspective...
But in any case it will not resulted in 2 Gods...
Again this line of question exist due to the view of "human like" God, popular in the western world.
God who envied, God who has enemies, Gof who get angry / pissed off, God who fought a war / battle, God who wrote a book..The flaw is actually on the view of "human like" God itself..
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This thread is full of pure conjecture about the nature of God. No person is able to conceptualise the nature of God. His nature is beyond our comprehension.
The Quran warns us not to spread speculation about Islam as though it is knowledge.
Incidentally, the question makes no sense. A god is not created, by definition, so you can not define any created thing as a god. It's not a theological question; it's a semantic one, and the answer is no.
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Incidentally, the question makes no sense. A god is not created, by definition, so you can not define any created thing as a god. It's not a theological question; it's a semantic one, and the answer is no.
Right. It is very common that people, we, come up with quetions like those, like when we try to characterize God as good or bad according to our own demands on what goodness or badness we exect.
Good and bad are human concepts. We need those concepts for our own good. ?Does God need them? and least of all ?Is He subject to that?. No he created those concepts for us, that we know. Not for Him.
Salaam
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Indeed.
The flaws are found in people's logic and perception, not in reality.
People would say "Can God create a stone so large he cannot lift it? In either case he's not omnipotent as either he cannot lift it, or he cannot creat it. Therefore God doesn't exist."
rotfl -
This thread is full of pure conjecture about the nature of God. No person is able to conceptualise the nature of God. His nature is beyond our comprehension.
Your statement itself contains a false conjecture...
Given nature itself is a creation..
Time and Space itself is a creation..The conception of "infinity", later to be symbolized in math with , started as a philosophical discussion in / around early Indus Aryan civilization.. when they're discussing the definition of "ultimate reality" which later they named as Brahman.
Something which has no beginning or end.. encompassing everything and beyond..Early Judaism also had similar view on YHVH..
"Heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will My resting place be? Has not My hand made all these things, and so they came into being?" declares YHVH
-- Isaiah 66 -
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God's nature is esoteric but not impossible to know. God is an expanding consciousness with every "cultivated" soul being a significant share of it while the lifeless person is merely a drop in the ocean (metaphorically speaking). The stronger a soul the greater share of the Grand Consciousness and thus greater influence potential, e.g. the ability to prophesy events and one becomes a determiner rather than "fate-ling". The relationship God versus soul/person (nafs) is highly symbiotic based on above elaboration.
There are theorists who say we are God and that is basically true albeit there is a kind of Force (like in Star Wars) which is inherent in every matter and non-matter. We do not replace it (Rabb) but we can synchronize ourselves to "the full image of God" and each person is supposed to be a "Who Is" which is the English translation of the Semitic word Allah. God will "harvest" (release) souls which have attained the successful level of ascent towards absolution, much like is taught in Hinduism. Failures will return in the Flesh repeatedly with the Spirit level retained but with physical memory suppressed which can be brought forth through various measures (meditation, hypnosis etc). It is the Body that clouds one from perceiving they have existed as a soul for some time.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Jafar, that's another semantic argument. I used the phrase the nature of God to describe the qualities that God has. The meaning of the statement has nothing to do with Nature.
I'm not sure how the history of the concept of infinitely is relevant here.
The historical concept of infinity is relevant to show how and when human civilization recognized the "true God".
(And not human-like deity kind of God)
Infinity is the true answer on your question of "What's the Nature of God"..Time and space is merely a creation.
The nature is merely a creation.
Border and limit, of any dimension, is a well engineered design.
Our current "observable reality" is merely a perception.
Infinity is the absolute reality. -
Jafar - Infinity is a simple concept that has been around forever. There have always been ideas regarding things which have no beginning and no end. Allah is not infinity (glorified is He). Allah designs and creates things, but infinity does not. Allah is aware, while infinity is a concept we are aware of. Infinity is not aware of anything. We could make a long list of qualities that Allah has that the meaning of the word infinity does not include.
I think you're stretching the meaning of the word infinity way too far. Allah is not infinity, which is an abstract concept, not a concrete thing that exists.
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Man of Faith - Your post is blasphemous. Allah is utterly independent of His creation. He has no need of the worlds. He does not depend on Creation. Allah existed absolutely before any of us existed at all. To suggest that we are somehow a part of God is utterly at odds with Islam.
You claim that 'stronger' souls are able to prophesy the future. That seems to be something you have originated without reference to the Quran.
You claim that we are reincarnated, and are aiming to be released from the cycle "much like is taught in Hinduism". Again, this is blatantly at odds with Quranic beliefs. We are not reincarnated at all.
I didn't realise you were promoting this kind of thing when we spoke the other day, else I would have mentioned it then. Respectfully, this is a forum for Quranists. It's pointless if anyone can post anything, even if it is totally at odds with Islam, just because the user believes in it and decides to call it Islam.
This isn't aimed at you personally. I have been trying to push back on a number of users lately, and am honestly just trying to find the best way to reform the forum so that visitors can read discussions of Quranism without frequent interruptions that are literally irrelevant. Otherwise, we will simply educate less people, and gain less knowledge ourselves. I left this forum a few years ago, because it was far too noisy. There are bound to be other people who also left for the same reasons.
Maybe I am wrong, and the community does not share my feelings or concerns, but I have had conversations in private that confirm that I am not alone at least.
Please understand this is not personal.
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Peace csmith.
When you say,quote
I left this forum a few years ago, because it was far too noisy. There are bound to be other people who also left for the same reasons.What does this mean in regard to this forum?
Are some going to restrict views? Why call it a forum then?
I am asking ,respectfully, because I do not agree with the view that someone is going to put other boundaries besides the clear rules of the forum.
Those who want to leave can do so if they wish, those who want to join can do the same. This is a free choice open to all.
Are we( whoever the "we" are?) going to create new rules? What next?
The fair way is to let whoever was accepted as a member to give their view freely . After all ,they are accepted because they agree to the existing forum rules already. That should be enough.
Sorry about the off topic.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Hey Good Logic, salaam.
As I understand it, what I am asking for is required by the forum rules - Rule 2 to be specific
2] Please note that this forum is primarily dedicated to God and the study and understanding of His Scripture (The Quran). Thus, mocking/ridiculing/insulting God and/or the Quran, and/or not being able to back-up claims against the Quran with specifics may result in deletion of such posts and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.
I don't want action to be taken against anyone, but would like to see more discipline regarding the part of Rule 2 that says "or not being able to back-up claims against the Quran with specifics".
If the community want to have a forum where people are welcome to promote their religion, even if it is totally at odds with the religion Allah has set out in His Quran, that is their choice. I am not trying to change people's minds about anything. I just don't think that that is a good idea for the reasons I outlined in my last post.
I would like a forum dedicated to Quranism, while you expressed a preference for a forum that only requires people to respect one another, if I understood your points properly. That is way too open for me. Currently, every interesting post gets buried in pages of other posts that are not relevant to Quranism, and are often lengthy promotions of the author's personal, original religion. This means that most people will not read most of the best posts. It is too much work to find them, and the process is unintersting to people looking for information on Quranic beliefs.
The community really need to debate the finer points of the forum rules, so we all know where we stand.
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Hey Good Logic, salaam.
As I understand it, what I am asking for is required by the forum rules - Rule 2 to be specific
2] Please note that this forum is primarily dedicated to God and the study and understanding of His Scripture (The Quran). Thus, mocking/ridiculing/insulting God and/or the Quran, and/or not being able to back-up claims against the Quran with specifics may result in deletion of such posts and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.
I don't want action to be taken against anyone, but would like to see more discipline regarding the part of Rule 2 that says "or not being able to back-up claims against the Quran with specifics".
I agree this rule is overstepped often.
Currently, every interesting post gets buried in pages of other posts that are not relevant to Quranism, and are often lengthy promotions of the author's personal, original religion. This means that most people will not read most of the best posts. It is too much work to find them, and the process is unintersting to people looking for information on Quranic beliefs.
That is true enough.
Salaam
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Peace csmith,huruf.
We have to leave that job to those assigned to do the moderating.
As for Qoran, it defends itself.
I do not see an issue. trolls/abusers..etc get found out .
People choose what to read regardless, some even ignore "good logic" and common sense in some threads.I have found that everything can be useful and serves as a lesson ,both the good and the bad.
A little bit of patience is sometimes required, after all the truth always stands out.
Sorry guys, I do not see a problem, but I understand your concerns.
GOD bless.
Peace