Thee AlQarnayni and the sun

Bender

Salaam,

I have been on a atheist-forum and there was a section with blunders in The Quran.
One of the blunders in The Quran is the famous verse were the sun is setting at/in a hot spring or something similar.
Here are my thoughts on it, I might be totally wrong.

1886
1886 Hatta itha balagha maghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hamiatin wawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya tha alqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba waimma an tattakhitha feehim husnan

If you look at the structure of the red part it's the same as the red part in 9111

9111
9111 Faqala lahum rasoolu Allahi naqata Allahi wasuqyaha

In 9111 " " does not refer to "Allahi" but to "naqata Allahi".

Thus it looks to me that "" in 1890 does not refer to alshshamsi but to "maghriba alshshamsi", 2 different things.

btw same for
1890
1890 Hatta itha balagha matliAAa alshshamsi wajadaha tatluAAu AAala qawmin lam najAAal lahum min dooniha sitran

Salaam,
Bender

huruf

I think you are right. That is proper Arabic sintaxis and it makes sense.

Someone

Peace Bender,

As you said, I think you are totally wrong, I am sorry to say. -\ ) at leat grammatically

Ashams is of feminine gender, matliAAa and maghrib are of masculine gender.

The "ha" in wajadaha refers to feminine noun, and thus it can only be referring to ashams.

As for the sun setting in a hot spring, here is my understanding
If someone wants to find the place where the sun sets, he will naturally follow its course to the west. For an observer on earth traveling westward, he will ultimately end on the east cost of the Atlantic Ocean or on the east cost of the Pacific ocean. Thus he will always find that the sun is setting in the ocean with some reddish colors. And thus it is only the representation from the point of view of the observer, not the reality of the sun setting.

I hope this helps. I might also be totally wrong nope

Wakas

peace,

I think the answer is in the verse itself

1886 and 1890 both say "he FOUND it" (jadaha).

It is not a factual statement and clearly from his perspective.

I find this amusing
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7Is22CmY_Y

Does that mean it is a fact it is amusing, or only amusing for me?

Bender

Peace Bender,

As you said, I think you are totally wrong, I am sorry to say. -\ ) at leat grammatically

Ashams is of feminine gender, matliAAa and maghrib are of masculine gender.

The "ha" in wajadaha refers to feminine noun, and thus it can only be referring to ashams.

As for the sun setting in a hot spring, here is my understanding
If someone wants to find the place where the sun sets, he will naturally follow its course to the west. For an observer on earth traveling westward, he will ultimately end on the east cost of the Atlantic Ocean or on the east cost of the Pacific ocean. Thus he will always find that the sun is setting in the ocean with some reddish colors. And thus it is only the representation from the point of view of the observer, not the reality of the sun setting.

I hope this helps. I might also be totally wrong nope

Hi Someone,

I know the grammar books give for matliAAa and maghrib a masculine gender.
But who decided that? There is no grammar book included with The Quran.
I don't use grammar books for the quran, there are a lot, really a lot of verses where the grammar books are totally contradicting the "grammar" of the quran.

Besides this, I did not say it was referring to maghrib or matliAA but to "maghriba asshamsi" and "matliAAa ashamsi".
Not to the sun itself and also not to maghrib itself.

Salaam,
Bender

huruf

Yes, it is true, maTli3 is masculine and so is maghrib, I was too fast to say.

So indeed the ha o wajada in 18.90 and 8.86 must be the sun, however I do not see that the text lends itself to be called a blunder in the sense that it is clear that where he goes in one case is where he saw the sun rising to the naked eye, and that when he got there where he saw the sun setting from a distance there was was a people who ... And the same goes with the etting of the sun.

That is, it is allseen from the point of view of DhulQarnain as wakas explains.

Salaam

huruf

Hi Someone,

I know the grammar books give for matliAAa and maghrib a masculine gender.
But who decided that? There is no grammar book included with The Quran.
I don't use grammar books for the quran, there are a lot, really a lot of verses where the grammar books are totally contradicting the "grammar" of the quran.

Besides this, I did not say it was referring to maghrib or matliAA but to "maghriba asshamsi" and "matliAAa ashamsi".
Not to the sun itself and also not to maghrib itself.

Salaam,
Bender

About the gender of te words, I suppose it is possible that they might have changed from the Qur'an to later. It happens in Spanish that words change gender or have two genders. So it may be worthwhile to bear that in mind.

Salaam

Bender

Yes, it is true, maTli3 is masculine and so is maghrib, I was too fast to say.

So indeed the ha o wajada in 18.90 and 8.86 must be the sun, however I do not see that the text lends itself to be called a blunder in the sense that it is clear that where he goes in one case is where he saw the sun rising to the naked eye, and that when he got there where he saw the sun setting from a distance there was was a people who ... And the same goes with the etting of the sun.

That is, it is allseen from the point of view of DhulQarnain as wakas explains.

Salaam

Salaam,

RED I dissagree
To what is wasuqyaha refering to in 9111 in your view? to naqata or to Allahi or to naqata Allahi?

Salaam,
Bender

Bender

About the gender of te words, I suppose it is possible that they might have changed from the Qur'an to later. It happens in Spanish that words change gender or have two genders. So it may be worthwhile to bear that in mind.

Salaam

Grammar books are in my view just like the hadiths. The Quran has it's own grammar. We should not try to subject the quran to any grammarbook or to any hadith. If it's really the book that it claims to be then it should be independent from external sources, it must clarify itself on it's own terms. Anyway this is how I approach it.

Noon_waalqalami

Peace Bender,

2258 ? said Ibrahim so surely the god brings with the sun from the east so bring thou with her/it (i.e. the sun) from the west?

1886 until when reached west the sun found her/it (i.e. the sun) set in spring dark mud

E.g. sunset Siwa Oasis Egypt
https//image.freepik.com/free-photo/siwa-oasis---sunset_2226039.jpg

1890 until when reached rise the sun found her/it rose over folk not we make for them from against her/it (i.e. the sun) shelter of

Someone

Hi Someone,

I know the grammar books give for matliAAa and maghrib a masculine gender.
But who decided that? There is no grammar book included with The Quran.
I don't use grammar books for the quran, there are a lot, really a lot of verses where the grammar books are totally contradicting the "grammar" of the quran.

Besides this, I did not say it was referring to maghrib or matliAA but to "maghriba asshamsi" and "matliAAa ashamsi".
Not to the sun itself and also not to maghrib itself.

Salaam,
Bender

Salam Bender,

I understand your doubts about grammar books and grammar of alquran, as I also see some differences between the two.

For the bolded part above in your post, if we consider what you say as true, then we end up with a logical problem with the next verb (taghrobo and tatlo3o) in both verses

Until when he reaches the sun-set he found it (the sun-set) setting in...

Until when he reaches the sun-rise he found it (the sun-rise) rising ...

It sound a bit like " I found the sun-rise rising in the sky"; is the sun rising in the sky? or is the sun-rise rising in the sky?

Peace,
Mohamed

good_logic

Peace Someone

I will give you another thought to ponder. Is the sun really rising?

GOD talks elsewhere in Qoran about "the position of the stars". i.e It depends where you are on earth!

For some it is the rising of the sun, for others it is its Midday and for others it is the setting of the sun,here on earth.

Are you sure one cannot find the sun rise of the sun rising? Or the sun set of the sun setting?

After all there is only one sun. How can it rise and set at the same time?

Just a thought..

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Bender

Salam Bender,

I understand your doubts about grammar books and grammar of alquran, as I also see some differences between the two.

For the bolded part above in your post, if we consider what you say as true, then we end up with a logical problem with the next verb (taghrobo and tatlo3o) in both verses

Until when he reaches the sun-set he found it (the sun-set) setting in...

Until when he reaches the sun-rise he found it (the sun-rise) rising ...

It sound a bit like " I found the sun-rise rising in the sky"; is the sun rising in the sky? or is the sun-rise rising in the sky?

Peace,
Mohamed

Salaam Mohamed,

This has puzzled me also when I was researching this the first time. But like always the quran is very exact.

I wil try to explain my view.
A couple of years ago I was living on the 10th floor, I had a nice view of the sunset. I could see from my balcony every day that the sun was setting in The Hague (I could see The Hague from my balcony).
This is of course a false statement. The sun does not set in The Hague.
Thee AlQarnayni discovered/found out that the movement of the sun was moving into the direction of something.
Not the sun herself was moving to a place, but her movement.
If the sun was an arrow which could land somewhere on earth then it is correct to say that the sun herself is moving to that place, but the sun is not such an arrow.
But her movement can be seen as an arrow which land somewhere.

I am sorry for my very bad English, I hope you understand what I was trying to say.

--- btw I want to highlight 2 things that probably some people also misunderstand.

1886

RED I think a lot read this as "reached" as "a point in space". This is per my understanding not true. Per my understanding it's "a point in time".
A nice example to understand the word is in
1222 And when he BALAGHA his independence, We gave him judgement and knowledge. It is thus that We reward the good doers.

BLUE A lot translate this as a literal "FINDING", like I found my wallet under my seat. In the quran it is per my understanding used like "DISCOVERING", maybe not the best word choice but I have nothing better.

Here the FM translation with some modifications how I understand it.
1886 Until he reached the point in time of the setting (a movement) of the sun; he discovered that the setting (a movement) of the sun was setting (a movement) in..."

Salaam,
Bender

ps. I have still no idea what maghrib, matli3 and mashrik mean.