Incest

Bender

Another verse that make no sense is 230.

"And , when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."(230)

Salaam,

RED This is 1 option. From my own experience with the quran it's always me where the misunderstanding is.

How did angels know that we humans were going to cause bloodshed and corruption before we were created? Evolution does not fit here since animals do not have the ability to lie and spread falsehood. The only way to back the interpretation of this verse is the possibility that there were another batch of intelligent creatures that lied and killed on earth that somehow disappeared when humanity was created an introduced to the earth. It makes no sense for angels to have knowledge of something in the future and have no clue when asked about the names of things.

BLUE You answered your question with a theory that makes according to you no sense. A good way to proceed now is to make a better theory (of course only if you believe that the author of the verse is someone who knows what he is talking about).

"They said, "Be You glorified, we have no knowledge, except that which You have taught us. You are the Omniscient, Most Wise."(232)
This verse contradicts 230 since angels do not know except for what their Creator taught them.

This is a logical consequence. If an earlier verse is misunderstood then most likely you will find more and more contradictions. This is for me always a hint to go back to the drawing board.

Salaam,
Bender

Invalid777

Bender, here are some important points to keep in mind.

Angels do not know except for what the Creator taught them
Angles somehow knew that humans were going to cause corruption on the earth. Only the Creator could have taught them that knowledge
Point number two raises another question. How were the angles taught about this destructive dark side humanity before humanity was created?
Two verses later, Angles remember that they do not know anything except for what the Creator taught them.

The contradiction here is that angels where somehow able to know exactly what humans were going to do on earth but since only their Creator can give them knowledge, it can only mean the Creator told them that. But what exactly were angels told about humans? That they were going to cause corruption on earth or that they were going to be made a "successive authority" on earth?

"And , when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."(230)

There are gaps here because we aren't exactly told how they knew. The only plausible explanation is that there were intelligent creatures on earth who also caused bloodshed and corruption before the creation of humans. With this experience, angels can now assume that this new intelligent creation(humans) might also cause bloodshed and corruption on earth. Now of course the Creator can remind them that they know nothing except for what their Creator taught them.
"They said, "Be You glorified, we have no knowledge, except that which You have taught us. You are the Omniscient, Most Wise."(232)

And btw, there is not a shred of evidence to support the jinn story of them roaming the earth before humans were created. If this is true, what happened to the jinns? Is there any evidence that the jinns became "invisible" to the humans? Do you see how flawed this excuse of the jinn is?

What do you think?

Invalid777

There are no contradictions in fact God clearly says the Jinn were created before.
It is conceivable that they also dwelled on the earth and in Janna( the elevated garden, elevated because if it's altitude)
Hence possibly conceivable why they are all told to Get down from therein you ALL

This is complete speculation thinking outwritten

The problem here brother is that there is not a shred of evidence that the jinns became invisible after the introduction of humans to earth. Did The GOD create jinn? No doubt about that. So what exactly happened to the jinn then? Did they suddenly disappear? Did they turn invisible to the human eye? If yes, is there any evidence to back this up? If no, then how can you believe jinns roamed the earth before humans? I fail to fathom how you(not you HP) can use jinn as an excuse to cover this illogical interpretation of these two verses.

Maybe it just me who's misunderstood all this.

HP_TECH

The problem here brother is that there is not a shred of evidence that the jinns became invisible after the introduction of humans to earth. Did The GOD create jinn? No doubt about that. So what exactly happened to the jinn then? Did they suddenly disappear? Did they turn invisible to the human eye? If yes, is there any evidence to back this up? If no, then how can you believe jinns roamed the earth before humans? I fail to fathom how you(not you HP) can use jinn as an excuse to cover this illogical interpretation of these two verses.
Maybe it just me who's misunderstood all this.

Your reasoning is kind of flawed perhaps in assuming that they had to become invisible.
Allah is the Lord of all existence including hidden realities.
The Jinn did not have to become invisible, perhaps that is part of their essence nature "fire", light, heat the latter are not completely visible to human eyes. Not all light is visible. If you pay attention to the story of Musa it describes the rod as moving rapidly like jinnatun. Some have interpreted is as snake. The root is definitely jin nun nun.
We can gather from the Quran that the Jinn are fire/light/heat beings whose atomic essence is of high frequency(moving rapidly).
The meaning in the root contains hidden or concealment. The Jinn are not invisible but I would speculate are hidden. Either by the limitation of our eyesight to their high-frequency subatomic make-up or by the Jinn's own choice (as Solomon again was able to perceive their presence).

If you read the first ten ayyahs in The Quran you will see that acknowledgement or being cognizant of the unseen is central to the deen.

21-3
Alif Laam Meem
That (is) the book no doubt in it, a Guidance for the God-conscious.
Those who believe in the unseen, and establish the prayer, and out of what We have provided them they spend.

Just because you cannot see something or it is hidden does not mean it is invisible in the transparent sense or not real for that matter.
You cannot perceive it with your eyes so it is invisible to you but not transparent.
In fact on the Day of the Judgement Allah will remove the cover from our eyes and you will see...

5021-23
And will be blown the trumpet. That (is the) Day (of) the Warning.
And will come every soul, with it a driver and a witness.
"Certainly you were in heedlessness of this. So We have removed from you your cover, so your sight today (is) sharp."
And (will) say his companion, "This (is) what (is) with me ready."
"Throw in (to) Hell every disbeliever stubborn,
Forbidder of good, transgressor doubter,
Who made with Allah a god another; so throw in(to) the punishment the severe."
Will say his companion, "Our Lord, not I made him transgress, but he was in error far."
He will say, "(Do) not dispute (in) My presence and indeed, I sent forth to you the Warning.
Not will be changed the word with Me, and not I Am unjust to My slaves."

Iblis promises to sit in ambush for men

716-17
(Shaitaan) said, "Because You have sent me astray, surely I will sit for them (on) Your straight path.
Then surely, I will come to them from before them and from behind them and from their right and from their left, and You will not find most of them grateful."

1762-64
He said, "Do You see this whom You have honored, above me? If You give me respite till (the) Day (of) the Resurrection, I will surely destroy his offspring except a few."
He said, "Go, and whoever follows you among them then indeed, Hell (is) your recompense - a recompense ample.
And incite whoever you can among them with your voice, and assault them with your cavalry and infantry and be a partner in the wealth and the children, and promise them." And not promises them the Shaitaan except delusion.

The wrongdoers will see on the day of regrets, those who used to come to them from the right.

3716-33
370 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
371 By the columns in formation.
372 By the callers as they call.
373 By the remembrance which follows.
374 Your god is indeed One.
375 The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and what lies between
them, and the Lord of the sunrises.
376 We have adorned the lower heaven with the decoration of planets.
377 And to guard against every rebellious devil.
378 They cannot listen to the command up high; and they are bombarded from every side.
379 Outcasts; they will have an eternal retribution.
3710 Any of them who snatches a part, he is pursued by a piercing
flame.
3711 So ask them ?Are they the more powerful creation, or the others We created?? We have created them from a clay that is sticky.
3712 While you were awed, they simply mocked.
3713 And when they are reminded, they do not care.
3714 And when they see a sign, they make fun of it.
3715 And they said ?This is nothing except evident magic!?
3716 ?Can it be that after we die and become dust and bones, that we are resurrected??
3717 ?What about our fathers of old??
3718 Say ?Yes, and you will be humbled.?
3719 All it takes is one call, then they will be staring.
3720 And they said ?Woe to us, this is the Day of Recompense!?
3721 This is the Day of decisiveness that you used to deny.
3722 Gather the transgressors, and their mates, and all they worshiped.
3723 Beside God, and guide them to the path of Hell.
3724 And let them stand and be questioned
3725 ?Why do you not support one another??
3726 No, for today they have totally given up.
3727 And some of them came to each other, questioning.
3728 They said ?You used to entice us from the right side.?
3729 They replied ?No, it was you who were not believers.?
3730 ?And we never had any power over you, but you were a wicked people.?
3731 ?So the decree of our Lord is now upon us, that we will suffer.?
3732 ?We misled you, because we were astray.?
3733 Then, on that Day they will be sharers/mush'tarikna in the punishment.

Why sharers/mush'tarikna? This is referring to the Jinn
The only two occurrences of these forms Active participle (form VIII) are indeed 3733 and 4339

Read 4336-39
And whoever turns away from (the) remembrance (of) the Most Gracious, We appoint for him a devil, then he (is) to him a companion.
And indeed, they surely, turn them from the Path and they think that they (are) guided.
Until when he comes to Us he says, "O would that between me and between you (were the) distance (of) the East and the West." How wretched is the companion!
And never will benefit you the Day, when you have wronged, that you (will be) in the punishment sharing/mush'tarikna.

Well what do you know?

We can learn from these passages that devils are assigned to those who turn from the Remembrance of God and they become sharers in the punishment.
It seems there is evidence. On the day of judgement everyone's cover will be removed and we will see sharply.
They(wrongdoers) will see the evil companion and wish there were a distance of east to west between them.
When they are led to the gates of Hell, they will blame one another and men will accuse Jinn of coming to them from the right.
Jinn will deny and claim they were already transgressors and that since they were astray they led them astray.

If you read the chapter titled Al-Jinn you will see that a party of the Jinn describes themselves as some being righteous and others wrongdoers. They are on ways different. They claim that they used to sit by the heavens but whoever sits there now, will find a missiles( shooting stars and comets). They used to sit and listen and now something changed. It is possible that the bestowal of the role of khalifa to man is what ceded their ability to sit and listen by the heavens. It is also possible that they never could. Although I personally now feel stronger about the former.

720 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
721 Say ?It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listen-
ing.? They said ?We have heard a magnificent Qur?an!?
722 ?It guides to what is correct, so we believed in it, and we will not set up anyone with our Lord.?
723 ?And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord, He has not taken a wife nor a son.?
724 ?And the foolish one among us used to say lies about God.?
725 ?And we had thought that neither mankind nor the Jinn would
ever utter a lie against God.?
726 ?And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only helped increase them in sin.?
727 ?And they thought as you thought, that God would not send anyone.?
728 ?And we touched the heavens, but found it full of powerful guards and projectiles.?
729 ?And we used to sit in it in places of listening, but anyone who sits now finds a projectile seeking him.?
7210 ?And we do not know, is it evil that is intended for those on the earth, or does their Lord want them to be guided??
7211 ?And among us are those who are good doers, and some of us are opposite to that, we are in many paths.?
7212 ?And we acknowledge that we cannot escape God on the earth, nor can we escape Him if we run.?
7213 ?And when we heard the guidance, we believed in it. So whoever believes in his Lord, then he will not fear a decrease in reward, nor a burdensome punishment.?
7214 ?And among us are those who submitted, and among us are the compromisers. As for those who have submitted, they have sought what is correct.?

Malaika, Jinn are all relatively invisible to the majority of us in this life.
I say relative and Majority because the prophets and people of old in Quran like Abraham and Lut and Maryam have seen Malaika before although might not have been aware that they were Malaika, like the 3 Messengers that arrived to the city in which a man from the farthest side of the city came running and believed in them as opposed to his people who perceived them as men like themselves. We know they were Malaika because God says that He did not send any more hosts from the heaven after him.
Also Solomon had Jinn/devils working for him.
Certain people from mankind sought help with the Jinn( great examples are the occult voodoo and witchcraft etcetera)

Finally, we can conclude that
1)Jinn are independent free-willed people
2)they are hidden from us either by their choice or our limitation
3)They were created before us

We have no idea what happened before, but it is plausible that as free-willed agents they were given the trust and like we are doing now shed blood and spread corruption on the earth.
This theory makes a lot of sense as the Jinn or Iblis became arrogant or jealous that man or Adam was honored given the trust.
Perhaps because the Jinn were given the trust before and were the solely caretakers of the earth.
It does not take a genius to connect the dots and reason that the Angels associate the bestowal of the trust and responsibility to the possible mistakes of the previous "agents".

Quran is complete brother. Please keep reading and believing and keep going back to the beginning of The Reading to improve your understanding. If there is an issue it is always with our understanding.
The key is to keep to The Reading, establish the salat and dhikr and remain humble and patient

As always implied I recommend researching these ayyahs more accurately as these are mere translations

To just add my opinion, if after reading the Quran and the highlighted verses in this post you (not you Invalid) are not convinced that the Jinn are independent living beings/ agents as we are of but of a different form, something might be a little off with your rationale. Get rid of your biases and open your eyes please.

Salaam

fye

crazy thought does anyone here believe that the womb that Prophet Adam developed in was made of earth? or flesh is made of earth and if you look at the bible he was created and then placed (lead to , i assume) in the garden of eden and there where rivers meantioned in all accounts of the cradle of civilization like between the tigiris and euphrates rivers also another two gihon and one more river. this is in the book og Genesis in the bible.

seriously read the first 3 chapters of the book of genesis it explains creation how the earth stage by stage developed in to a livable environment. when it comes to incest in the first humans consider the womb. nothing was made by the hand of god just by his command (rules) the same rules that bring atoms together. most of it is explained by hydrogen bonds. also DNA, the "D" in dna is a sugar, 2-Deoxyi-ribose Nucleic Acid,RNA is Ribose. consider how a baby develops in a womans womb it's almost anaerobic.

simplier even butterflies develop in a womb and that womb is simply some crap coming out of their butts.

ALLAH knows best but the more i read the bible and study biology the more i realise we were all like some sea monkeys you just add water.
better example is the spawning pits from lord of the rings. all we are is in dirt (dust) a collection of scattered particles that come together with hydrogen bonds. ashes to ashes and dust to dust, back from what we came from.

back to incest do you think that eve being made out of Prophet Adams rib is like the ultimate incest? like a weird science type thing. so were adam and eve even related except with dna from adam, and then the environment effecting how they "baked" (baked the bones hard and the proteins to flesh) the quote you gave is the same in the book of leviticus, but i think the incest was maybe related to a spawning pit they had more sons than kain and able, the science points to this. the question is were all men from adam and eve? where in the bible (which is a book all muslims must believe in) does it list all the children of adam? didn't he raise them? didn't she breast feed them? and their survival is strongest as a group? so does anyone want to check the science of a spawning pit?

all life on earth is simply spawn or released from it's in environment, the chicken came before the egg, the egg rust contains chicken ingreidents. if you believe and know this from reading a few pages of a biology book then you can agree we human being are hatched from the same (in-cest) or multiple "cest" pools!

*cest does not simply mean filth it's a collect of ingredents that RNA puts together into a life form... or a plant but i didn't study that, the plant part, plants came before humans.

Bender

Bender, here are some important points to keep in mind.

Angels do not know except for what the Creator taught them
Angles somehow knew that humans were going to cause corruption on the earth. Only the Creator could have taught them that knowledge
Point number two raises another question. How were the angles taught about this destructive dark side humanity before humanity was created?
Two verses later, Angles remember that they do not know anything except for what the Creator taught them.

The contradiction here is that angels where somehow able to know exactly what humans were going to do on earth but since only their Creator can give them knowledge, it can only mean the Creator told them that. But what exactly were angels told about humans? That they were going to cause corruption on earth or that they were going to be made a "successive authority" on earth?

"And , when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."(230)

Hi Invalid777,

I understood the contradiction. But in my view the contradiction is not in the quran but in your understanding.
I see that you have translated (or took a translation) were malaikat are translated as angels.
I am not sure about you, but if I see the word angel then I immediately see an image of a creature (with a human face) with white cloths and wings.
And letting this image of malaikat slip into my understanding of the quran brings a lot of contradictions, not only in 230 but in fact in all verses were they are mentioned.
So maybe we have to look for a better image of malaikats.

There are gaps here because we aren't exactly told how they knew. The only plausible explanation is that there were intelligent creatures on earth who also caused bloodshed and corruption before the creation of humans. With this experience, angels can now assume that this new intelligent creation(humans) might also cause bloodshed and corruption on earth. Now of course the Creator can remind them that they know nothing except for what their Creator taught them.
"They said, "Be You glorified, we have no knowledge, except that which You have taught us. You are the Omniscient, Most Wise."(232)

Blue I can almost feel that you are not satisfied with this only plausible explanation

And btw, there is not a shred of evidence to support the jinn story of them roaming the earth before humans were created. If this is true, what happened to the jinns? Is there any evidence that the jinns became "invisible" to the humans? Do you see how flawed this excuse of the jinn is?

I agree, this make no sense.

What do you think?

I think 230 has all the information we need, no other verses needed.

Salaam,
Bender

HP_TECH

Hi Invalid777,

I understood the contradiction. But in my view the contradiction is not in the quran but in your understanding.
I see that you have translated (or took a translation) were malaikat are translated as angels.
I am not sure about you, but if I see the word angel then I immediately see an image of a creature (with a human face) with white cloths and wings.
And letting this image of malaikat slip into my understanding of the quran brings a lot of contradictions, not only in 230 but in fact in all verses were they are mentioned.
So maybe we have to look for a better image of malaikats.
Blue I can almost feel that you are not satisfied with this only plausible explanation

I agree, this make no sense.

I think 230 has all the information we need, no other verses needed.

Salaam,
Bender

Hello bender you totally disregarded my post.

I highlighted in my long lost abou the Malaika
There are plenty of examples in Quran in which Malaika assume the form of men, it might not be their original form. But they have done it and they are well able to by the permission of Allah.
Abraham had honored guests who appeared to him and did not eat food
Lut received the Meseengers and his people demanded his guests.
God blinded them for their transgression.
A Messenger/Malaika appeared to Mary in her seclusion
One trait that the Maliaka have is to cause apprehension on the behalf of the a Messengers and appear as people unknown.
Abraham was afraid of them, Lut also felt fear or he felt straitened, Mary sought refuge in Allah from the messenger.

They spoke and delivered their messages.
They are conscious independent beings.

The only contradiction would be to deny this when it is clear that they appeared to people as men.

Show where you see the contradiction in the verses you speak of.
This is a perfect platform for us to study and help one another.
Don't just claim soothing causes contradiction without showing it please.

You also overlooked the portion about the Jinn.
In what way would that theory make no sense?
I strongly feel that you need an elaborate argument to make such claim.
You have nothing to counter this very well established theory except for saying it makes no sense?
bravo

This is not how we study Quran folks
Let's use Quran ayyaas in our arguments and analyze each premise.

Bender

Hello bender you totally disregarded my post.

I highlighted in my long lost abou the Malaika
There are plenty of examples in Quran in which Malaika assume the form of men, it might not be their original form. But they have done it and they are well able to by the permission of Allah.
Abraham had honored guests who appeared to him and did not eat food
Lut received the Meseengers and his people demanded his guests.
God blinded them for their transgression.
A Messenger/Malaika appeared to Mary in her seclusion
One trait that the Maliaka have is to cause apprehension on the behalf of the a Messengers and appear as people unknown.
Abraham was afraid of them, Lut also felt fear or he felt straitened, Mary sought refuge in Allah from the messenger.

They spoke and delivered their messages.
They are conscious independent beings.

The only contradiction would be to deny this when it is clear that they appeared to people as men.

Show where you see the contradiction in the verses you speak of.
This is a perfect platform for us to study and help one another.
Don't just claim soothing causes contradiction without showing it please.

You also overlooked the portion about the Jinn.
In what way would that theory make no sense?
I strongly feel that you need an elaborate argument to make such claim.
You have nothing to counter this very well established theory except for saying it makes no sense?
bravo

This is not how we study Quran folks
Let's use Quran ayyaas in our arguments and analyze each premise.

Hi HP_TECH,

RED I did not disregarded your post, I just did not read it.
It was a long post and for me it always takes some time and some help from google-translator to understand everything what is written.
I rejected the jinn theory only with the information Invalid777 gave in his post, and you a right that I had not to judge so quickly, it was better if I had asked for more information.

Salaam,
Bender

NielsJacob

Peace Invalid777

According to the mainstream interpretation of the Reading(Quran), there are verses which explicitly forbid any sexual relationship with a blood relative. We are also told that the "way of Allah never changes". If this is true, why on earth do Muslims believe that humanity spread through incest? Why did Allah need incest to kick-start the human race but ban it later down the road? Would that not contradict 3362 and 1777?

Cant you see that God have taken his precaution for ths situation. In the were ayat you quoted 4.23 ... except for what has already occurred..

Offcause if the amount of people is very few. There may have to be incest if the human race should be able to reproduce.
Before we didnt knew why incest was probited but know we know it has do with the inbreeding, The variety of the genes..
The crazy thing about this issue is From where do we think that incest is abomination if it wasn?t for God..
I thinking that before you wasnt into this gene thing.
And people can make sex without the purpose of reproduction. But its still prohibited when its eg. between siblings (In my country, Denmark it can give up to two years prison).

Jafar

Despite all of the (strange) idea proposed by the so-called holy books..

Let's stick on the actual fact

As can be observed, the more distant the relativeness of the pair the richer the gene pool for their offspring will be.
Lethal gene does exist, the probability of lethal gene increases as the 'relativeness' of the pair become closer.

The pattern of the result of this lethal gene might be observable even by the ancient people.
That's why they invented a restriction on whom can be married or cannot be married.

However human has tendency to do marriage 'in between their own group', primarily to safeguard all of the wealth to be kept within the family. Yet due to this lethal gene.. they invented some rules on those who are 'distant' enough to be married (e.g. the same ethnicity, the same religion etc..) and those who are too close to be married (e.g. siblings).

Despite the idea proposed by "holy books"..
The first homo sapien wasn't born alone on earth..
He (or she) has mom, dad and probably cousin, brothers / sisters as well.
He might have wife or wives.. (or she might have husband or husbands) and the children carries along the gene passed by the first homo sapien.

The progeny of the first homo sapiens has a distinctive mark which makes the group 'superior' to the other hominid.
It's their LINGUISTIC capability.. they can communicate better among themselves.. sharing richer ideas and they can communicate better which makes their collective hunting (or warring) effort more effective than other hominid.

The group was initially evolved in Tropical region in Africa..
Yes the "true" early homo sapiens were essentially a tropical species, they hate cold winter and enjoy the hot summer.
Dark skinned and curly hair..
They begin to migrate out of africa arriving on the area which is now called Arabian peninsula...
Some of them migrated northward venturing deep into caucasus region.. some of them migrated eastward as far as today's Australia.

Along the way, they encountered many different kind of other hominid.
Among them was the Neanderthal.. the true native hominid inhabitant of middle east, central asia and europe.
Bigger bodies, light skinned, straight hair and colorful eyes and hair.
Yet their LINGUISTIC skill was not as good as the sapiens thus their hunting (and warring) skill were inferior to the sapiens.

Many centuries passes with sapiens and neanderthal living together side by side..
Normally they don't do inter marriage.. as both parties find each others as "unattractive".
Yet eventually conflict arises... and on each war.. the lighter skinned neanderthal loses..

The sapiens captured the Neanderthal girls and women as war booty... and "Made Love" with them.. although probably not with a consent of the neanderthal girls or women.

Their progeny inherited far richer gene pool compared to 'only sapiens' counterpart.
They inherited the linguistic and reasoning skill of the sapiens plus the resistant to cold and also other local diseases from the neanderthal. Their skin is lightly colored and their hair becoming straight...

As time progress.. such inherited characteristic proven to be 'desirable' for survivability on the sub tropical region.
As such this sapiens + neanderthal mixes become superior than the 'pure sapiens'.
And become the new dominant race in the region.

This is what we know so far.. the Neanderthal genes can be found in ALL Non Sub-Saharan African living today, including European, Asian (Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Malay, Indian, Pakistani), Native Australian (Aborigines, Maori) and Native American. And no Neanderthal gene can be found in today's Sub Saharan African.

The early chapter of humanity story on earth.. as we know today..
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607283.0

Although might not synchornized well with the idea proposed by "Holy Books"..

Novice

Was already included in the OP but here it is anyway.

"That was the Way of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old, and you will not find any change in the Way of Allah"(3362)
"This has been consistently the case with all the messengers that we sent before you, and you will find that our system never changes"(1777)

Salam Invalid777

Please look at the context of both verses. They are informing us about Way of Allah in those situations.

In my humble opinion no incest is involved as human race (Adama) was evolving and malaika were watching them spreading fasad and bloodshed. Let me quote your translation here

"And , when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."(230)

You see present tense used (red color) So malaika were witnessing it happening. They were not asking or telling future.

My two cents )

Peace

Bender

Hello bender you totally disregarded my post.

Hi,

Ok I have read your post now, but I don't think I can agree with that theory.
It's a bit of a long post to comment on that post, so I take this one.

I highlighted in my long lost abou the Malaika
There are plenty of examples in Quran in which Malaika assume the form of men, it might not be their original form. But they have done it and they are well able to by the permission of Allah.
Abraham had honored guests who appeared to him and did not eat food
Lut received the Meseengers and his people demanded his guests.
God blinded them for their transgression.

There is are no malaikats in that story.

A Messenger/Malaika appeared to Mary in her seclusion

Also not a malaikat

One trait that the Maliaka have is to cause apprehension on the behalf of the a Messengers and appear as people unknown.
Abraham was afraid of them, Lut also felt fear or he felt straitened, Mary sought refuge in Allah from the messenger.

RED why? 3 or 1000 examples is not a proof for something.

They spoke and delivered their messages.
They are conscious independent beings.

The only contradiction would be to deny this when it is clear that they appeared to people as men.

Show where you see the contradiction in the verses you speak of.

I did not quote a verse where I thought there was a contradiction.

This is a perfect platform for us to study and help one another.
Don't just claim soothing causes contradiction without showing it please.
You also overlooked the portion about the Jinn.
In what way would that theory make no sense?

I strongly feel that you need an elaborate argument to make such claim.

I was not discussing with you, I was only focused on the posts of Invalid777, so I had not that feeling to elaborate an argument on your post.

You have nothing to counter this very well established theory except for saying it makes no sense?
bravo

I have also no argument for Jesus not being God when I discuss with a christian who is convinced that Jesus is God.

This is not how we study Quran folks
Let's use Quran ayyaas in our arguments and analyze each premise.

Everyone of us has his own methods for studying something.

Salaam,
Bender

HP_TECH